Author Topic: the problem  (Read 14603 times)

May 25, 2005, 02:19:50 AM
Reply #80

Mr.Ben

  • Legacy Reserved
  • Fade

  • Offline
  • **

  • 311
    • View Profile
Yeah and losing as marine because the server blocks a valid strategy to counter a very powerful alien ability is GREAT. Jeez, no game is always happy times and never will be. I can understand being spawned camp, but dying to a mine in an UNBUILT hive is just utter overkill. It's like banning for camping off a PG, OMG I PHASED AND DIED HOW UNFUN QUICK CALL THE LAME POLIEC!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 02:22:55 AM by Mr.Ben »

<3 BenjamiN/Benny/MrBen - Washed up clanner, ex-contributor and forum troll.
#lessthanthree on qnet

May 25, 2005, 05:53:01 AM
Reply #81

mr. pie

  • Lerker

  • Offline

  • 1
    • View Profile
Currently I think one of the biggest balance problems has to do with map layout. There are alot of hives that are unreasonably difficult to siege, requiring marines to rush in and become fodder for aliens spawning or movementing in and getting free attacks from behind while also benefiting from the hive regen. The most common siege areas are small cramped hallways that become even more cramped when you start putting tfs and turrets in them. So what you end up with is marines being stuck with low mobility and highly vulnerable to spores and skulks that can use marines and structures to block the majority of incoming fire. With LM having FF on you see marines taking quite a bit of team damage in these scenarios, as well as it being the main reason why grenade launchers are used so infrequently on the server. Places like the refinery hive on bast and mother hive on nancy give the aliens a significant advantage and I often see a bunch of res and time wasted on sieges that have very little chance of succeeding.

To combat this problem marine commanders need to have their marines put pressure on the aliens inside the hive and keep only 2 or so marines at the pg/tf. A single marine unloading his lmg clip into a fade can force it to retreat and heal before it will feel safe assaulting the main marine presence, more marines can hold off most of the alien team long enough for a couple guys to get sieges up. The goal shouldn't be to go fully into the hive and kill chambers or gorges but to keep the aliens at bay and keep the fighting away from the blocking turrets. And once the sieges are up the marines need to run in and shoot the hive, which thankfully seens to be happening more often as of late. There are still locations like sewer hive on caged where the geometry makes this really difficult but it is very effective on maps like eclipse and origin.

Another problem is the mid to late game rt advantage for aliens. Once the marines start focusing on hitting hives and put less effort into building/capturing new rts the aliens gradually pull ahead in regards to incoming res as they are able to use a single skulk to take out the majority of the marine res towers. And since aliens will have access to fades, leap and a second set of upgrades they have no problems reacting to hivesight warnings of rt's under attack and dispatching the marines or at least keeping them from damaging the rt while they defend themselves and more aliens arrive. Marines also are at a much greater disadvantage when attacking rts as both knifing and shooting the rt down leaves the marine extremely vulnerable. If the marine knifes he must stand right next to the rt while the constant sound effects make it difficult to hear incoming skulks, and when they do show up there's a delay to switch weapons that gives skulks time to close distance. If the marine shoots the rt he spends half his time with an empty clip and reloading with no way to defend himself effectively. Meanwhile a skulk isn't at any great disadvantage while biting an rt since it provides an effective shield from bullets and the marines focusing on the biting skulk are very susceptible to an ambush from another alien.

There's not any real way for marines to counter this disadvantage. If they send more people in larger groups that's pressure taken off hives or more critical locations and the people shooting or knifing still put the group at a disadvantage if the aliens attack in numbers. You can give out heavy weapons to make the rts die faster but there are still disadvantages with reloading and it's very easy to lose the weapon and watch the res spent on it go down the drain. Motion tracking does give a benefit when used in conjuction with the mini-map but you still end up in big trouble versus fades and leap. The benefit electrification gives goes away quickly once you have gorges bile bombing and an increasing number of fades. The only effective solution I can see is to decrease the total hp of alien rts so they go down faster. This would also provide a more active role for gorges as they'll need to heal the rts but changing it is in the dev's hands and could cause early game imbalance.

Overall I'd say marines need to play more agressively early game and put more priority on killing alien rts as the game progresses. In the very beginning of a game especially marines need to try and get deeper map penetration, they can oftentimes kill a gorge or two before it gets an rt up. Having the first couple marines out of base proceed directly to hives can also give you great early game map presence and the aliens will have to attack you instead of laying in wait and ambushing when and where they want.

May 25, 2005, 09:01:49 AM
Reply #82

Niteowl

  • Legacy Admin
  • Commander

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 2194
    • View Profile
    • http://www.oldf.net
I think I speak for everyone when I say

1) who the heck is mr. pie!?
2) Longest, first post, evar.

And a note on the actual post. If the rines are aggressive enough in their initial assault, aliens will be hard put to organize ONE skulk to go out and take down rts. If the comm can get an above average player to do RT duty, taking down their rts, puttting up rine ones, the game is 50% won.

I think the key is the initial alien rt takedown, along with proper tech counters early.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 09:05:00 AM by Niteowl »
"I don't have to know an answer, I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me."
-Richard Feynman

May 25, 2005, 09:32:05 AM
Reply #83

rad4Christ

  • Community Penguin
  • Onos

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 614
    • View Profile
    • http://
I know Mr.Pie. But I still think caek is better.
tim
Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important. CS Lewis

SheenaYanai
: why do i have to be a stone? i dont want to be a stone... i want to do some harm.... can i be a exploding stone at least?

May 25, 2005, 09:35:16 AM
Reply #84

Legionnaired

  • Legacy Reserved
  • Fade

  • Offline
  • **

  • 492
    • View Profile
    • http://
Quote
I know Mr.Pie. But I still think caek is better.
[snapback]49452[/snapback]

Infidel.

I've played with Mr. Pie before, he's a good fade and a nice shot as well. Nice bloke, far as I can tell.

And, you raise a lot of good points, which I'm far too tired to respond to. Perhaps later I'll edit this post and make it less useless.

May 25, 2005, 04:04:24 PM
Reply #85

Necrosis

  • Legacy Reserved
  • Marine

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 830
    • View Profile
"the server blocks a valid strategy to counter a very powerful alien ability"

Yes, IIRC that was the same sort of discussion over the validity of CC blocking. I remember how that one ended too.

"but dying to a mine in an UNBUILT hive is just utter overkill."

If people could be trusted, you could consider rules like "mines are ok in an unbuilt hive" but the problem is people can't be trusted, they'll spam mines at the last possible minute, then whine about how their skills are being inhibited despite the fact they're trying to grasp an edge by unsporting means.

If I thought I could trust half the people who like spamming mines in a hive NOT to spam mines at the last minute, then I'd be more in favour of it. But the fact is they can't be trusted. It was the exact same thing with CC blocking, it was the exact same thing with ANY rule thats come into being. When we had a whole set of spawncamping rules, players still tried to wheedle their way into "legitimate" spawncamping. Forget the fact that the SPIRIT of the rules were "no spawncamping", noooo, the LETTER of the rules allowed spawncamping if you were very very dishonest and underhand.

I do not doubt for a second that if the mine rule was relaxed, we'd instantly see a slew of people spamming mines just before the hive pops, then saying "Oh I'm not spawncamping with mines, I dropped those a whole 2 seconds before the hive went up". If anyone tried to argue the point, they'd instantly complain about the rule and how unfair the admins are and etc etc all the usual rubbish we've come to expect.

Lot easier to just leave it as is, where there is no ambiguity, where people can make a quick call about whether or not a mine is in the hive, and where certain players  will have no opportunity to throw a hissy fit because their attempt to sidestep the rules got caught.
Necrosis killed Holy_Devil with pistol
Holy_Devil: cheater

May 25, 2005, 09:10:07 PM
Reply #86

mhawk

  • Skulk

  • Offline
  • *

  • 41
    • View Profile
    • http://
Two things, f

First can't you just put a plugin on that makes the aliens invulnerable for 2 seconds when they spawn.  Then you could allow mines?


Two, Mr. Pie, marines with nades can get the aliens behind rt's easy.

May 26, 2005, 12:28:54 PM
Reply #87

Sydney Carton

  • Skulk

  • Offline
  • *

  • 54
    • View Profile
    • http://etotheipi.blogspot.com
Quote
Two things, f

First can't you just put a plugin on that makes the aliens invulnerable for 2 seconds when they spawn.  Then you could allow mines?


Two, Mr. Pie, marines with nades can get the aliens behind rt's easy.
[snapback]49519[/snapback]

Meh, I don't really like solutions that involve invulnerability... aliens in their hive don't really need any more help, and being physically denied access to shoot them just feels cheap.

Better solutions would be (1) a built hive disables mines (either removes, or renders unable to act until it goes down -- does not blow them up, obviously, hehe) within spawn radius or (2) new skulks can't blow up mines for two seconds (different from invulnerability).
-------------------------------------
'Tis a far coarser topology that I refine...

May 26, 2005, 01:46:46 PM
Reply #88

Moniker

  • Lerker

  • Offline

  • 3
    • View Profile
I think the problem isn't so much an imbalance in the game (not that i'm saying it's not imbalanced) as a genuine lack of skill/teamwork on both teams.

Now, I'm not an ubercomm, but I've won a couple games in my time, and the first thing I notice (lately) is a complete and total lack of listening to the comm. Usually it ends up with one or two regs doing what they are told, maybe a nub(any non reg) tagging along, and then everyone else wandering around, dying, asking for meds, dying, taking shotguns, dying, OMG KILLED AN RT, dying... And people justify this "but I'm a ninja!" "ninjas win the game!" and then I get voted out of the chair because no one goes to their waypoints.

Marine shooting skill. I watched a euro clan game a week ago, and boy, skulks run from marines like mad. Why? Because marines have GUNS and can kill a skulk in less then a second. I know it's not reasonable to expect leet shooting skills on pubs, but jesus, I've seen single skulks take out 3-4 marines (I've been the marine and the skulk at different times)

And then just a lack of looking/listening at what's going on around them. You know what I mean by this, I bet.

Aliens have similar probles, with single skulks attacking marine start when it's farmed, wandering around blundering into marines and dying, NOT parasiting... 8 minute hive FTW! And.. uh.. totally random chamber placement. Oh, yes, res whoring for onos and dying to LMG marines.

Now, I wouldn't go so far as to call this a problem, more of a.. status quo (and these are simply my observations/frustrations, I'm probably just as guilty as the next guy) the only 'problem' is that a lack of skill hurts marines more then it hurts aliens.
Disrespecting authority is win!

May 26, 2005, 01:58:30 PM
Reply #89

aeroripper

  • Legacy Reserved
  • Gorge

  • Offline
  • *

  • 215
    • View Profile
    • http://
Quote
Now, I wouldn't go so far as to call this a problem, more of a.. status quo (and these are simply my observations/frustrations, I'm probably just as guilty as the next guy) the only 'problem' is that a lack of skill hurts marines more then it hurts aliens.

defintely

Marines HAVE to use teamwork to have a "average" chance of winning the game.  There are always rambos if you don't give people constant direction (even then they still run off to chase a skulk from the group and die)

If aliens have good teamwork there is a high chance they will win anyways.

May 26, 2005, 04:29:58 PM
Reply #90

SwiftSpear

  • Legacy Reserved
  • HA Marine

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1161
    • View Profile
    • my site
Quote
"the server blocks a valid strategy to counter a very powerful alien ability"

Yes, IIRC that was the same sort of discussion over the validity of CC blocking. I remember how that one ended too.

"but dying to a mine in an UNBUILT hive is just utter overkill."

If people could be trusted, you could consider rules like "mines are ok in an unbuilt hive" but the problem is people can't be trusted, they'll spam mines at the last possible minute, then whine about how their skills are being inhibited despite the fact they're trying to grasp an edge by unsporting means.

If I thought I could trust half the people who like spamming mines in a hive NOT to spam mines at the last minute, then I'd be more in favour of it. But the fact is they can't be trusted. It was the exact same thing with CC blocking, it was the exact same thing with ANY rule thats come into being. When we had a whole set of spawncamping rules, players still tried to wheedle their way into "legitimate" spawncamping. Forget the fact that the SPIRIT of the rules were "no spawncamping", noooo, the LETTER of the rules allowed spawncamping if you were very very dishonest and underhand.

I do not doubt for a second that if the mine rule was relaxed, we'd instantly see a slew of people spamming mines just before the hive pops, then saying "Oh I'm not spawncamping with mines, I dropped those a whole 2 seconds before the hive went up". If anyone tried to argue the point, they'd instantly complain about the rule and how unfair the admins are and etc etc all the usual rubbish we've come to expect.

Lot easier to just leave it as is, where there is no ambiguity, where people can make a quick call about whether or not a mine is in the hive, and where certain players  will have no opportunity to throw a hissy fit because their attempt to sidestep the rules got caught.
[snapback]49499[/snapback]
To be fair marines don't really know when a hive is being finished unless they see it go up.  I think staying alive and countering a movement rush are about as good a reason as possible to drop as many mines on the floor as possible.  Realisticly, after the hive goes up your spawnrate doubles, what's one or two spawndeaths do mines with a doubled spawn rate at hive two?  As long as it's evident the marines wern't just dropping mines for kills and were acctually trying to kill the hive it should be considered valid under the rules.

There are tonnes of other possible exploits I can think of that are just as arguable in gray area.  What if a com nodeblocks a egging gorge with the arguement "oh there are marines on the way!"  Why not make a rule against dropping nodes?

The point being here, we don't make gameplay distroying rules that protect the "fun" we make fun protecting rules that still work with the gameplay, and no mines in a hive period compleatly distroys the ONLY valid counter to movement rushes.

Spawn camping is totally different from killing skulks that are chosing to movement in.  Expecially since 9 times out of 10 the unactive hive is the marine's one and only target, so if it WAS spawning they were worried about it would be more then acceptable for them TO be spawncamping.
<------OOOooooOOOoo, Hyperlink!
Final Hope Faith, COME ONE COME ALL

May 26, 2005, 09:00:31 PM
Reply #91

Goldy

  • Legacy Reserved
  • Fade

  • Offline
  • **

  • 271
    • View Profile
    • http://
The gray area should not favor the aliens, who are already winning game after game after game. It should tip in the favor of marines, which means mines in an unbuilt hive as part of a hive assault should be allowed. But the suggestion topic I made about this got locked so I don't think that's up for argument. :)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 09:06:56 PM by Goldy »
Best thread ever
"You steal a thousand Post-It notes at 12p, and you've made... a profit."

May 26, 2005, 09:12:59 PM
Reply #92

SwiftSpear

  • Legacy Reserved
  • HA Marine

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1161
    • View Profile
    • my site
Quote
The gray area should not favor the aliens, who are already winning game after game after game. It should tip in the favor of marines, which means mines in an unbuilt hive as part of a hive assault should be allowed. But the suggestion topic I made about this got locked so I don't think that's up for argument. :)
[snapback]49581[/snapback]
LB has discovered that he quite likes locking topics  :p
<------OOOooooOOOoo, Hyperlink!
Final Hope Faith, COME ONE COME ALL

May 26, 2005, 11:41:20 PM
Reply #93

Absinthe

  • Legacy Reserved
  • Skulk

  • Offline
  • *

  • 63
    • View Profile
    • http://
To my knowledge it's legal to defend a locked down hive with pg/tf/turrets/mines am I not correct? I've seen this done plenty of times, so if it's not I'd like to know.

Now, if aliens decide to MC rush your locked down hive and land on mines, how is that different than an unbuilt hive having mines placed in it? Are the marines at fault for placing the mines in there to defend the hive or are the aliens at fault for being foolish enough to take that risk and MC over?

If you ask me, and I'm probably not alone here, I would without a doubt say the latter. I don't see the difference between that and building a pg during a hive assault and supporting it with mines. Some may says its just a matter of timing though, "whoever got there first is in the right", and I think that's a load of BS. Hive occupancy should not be determined by "who got there first", but more like "who's standing there last".

I really hate this notion that mines are some sort of indestructible device that guarantees kills and changes the tide of the game.. THEY AREN'T! Mines don't have any more lame potential than a marine randomly coming upon a hive an LMG'ing a freshly spawned skulk. I honestly welcome some nub to come running into an aliens main hive for the sole purpose of dropping mines in spawn points. I'd go gorge and spend 1 minute clearing out all his hard work and precious resources.

To be honest, I think the amount of people complaining to allow mines in hives are more than the amount of complains you recieve about the skulks spawning on top of them if it were in place. Meanwhile, back on Earth aliens are going MC and marines are lucky to win even with a stacked team. GG.


Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

May 27, 2005, 10:01:40 AM
Reply #94

Goldy

  • Legacy Reserved
  • Fade

  • Offline
  • **

  • 271
    • View Profile
    • http://
It seems that ninja phase gates are the only way marines are killing hives. If the aliens know they're coming, even with a heavy train.. they tend to die horribly.
Best thread ever
"You steal a thousand Post-It notes at 12p, and you've made... a profit."

May 27, 2005, 10:14:16 AM
Reply #95

Mr.Ben

  • Legacy Reserved
  • Fade

  • Offline
  • **

  • 311
    • View Profile
Contary to popular belief you don't HAVE to walk into the building hive to kill it. If you can't push in you can just siege... GASP. Or **** it, just leave the hive, target their RTs, their chambers, place a PG in a strategic spot to allow you to hold RTs and then basically turtle till HA.

If you take down their rts then you stop onos coming, if you shotgun down a few mcs you delay them getting second chambers, if you hold a PG in the right place you can easily hold 3-4 rts around the map and then when you're train is ready just go to the best siege spot and go for it.

<3 BenjamiN/Benny/MrBen - Washed up clanner, ex-contributor and forum troll.
#lessthanthree on qnet

May 27, 2005, 11:34:27 AM
Reply #96

lithium

  • Lerker

  • Offline

  • 20
    • View Profile
mines< a good marine with a shotgun.

Maybe i'm missing the argument, but a lot of the reasons marines lose is because of the strats they use to try and win.

I mean i play marines a lot, and i rarely see anything other than the basic pub strat except from a few decent comms on this server. Wasting 50 res on locking down 1 hive, or not presuring alien res, or trying to siege every hive they come to, and the usual 2 or 3 people that don't know what's going on usually lead to alien victories. That and good  fades having 10:1 k:d every game.  

The game feels a little more balenced to me when you get an organized marine team toghether, and also a few maps just feel a little unbalenced in the newer versions.

May 27, 2005, 01:08:23 PM
Reply #97

Niteowl

  • Legacy Admin
  • Commander

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 2194
    • View Profile
    • http://www.oldf.net
Quote
Wasting 50 res on locking down 1 hive, or not presuring alien res, or trying to siege every hive they come to, and the usual 2 or 3 people that don't know what's going on usually lead to alien victories.
[snapback]49614[/snapback]

This bugs me to no end.
"I don't have to know an answer, I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me."
-Richard Feynman

May 27, 2005, 04:13:00 PM
Reply #98

SwiftSpear

  • Legacy Reserved
  • HA Marine

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1161
    • View Profile
    • my site
Quote
mines< a good marine with a shotgun.
Not against MC rushers.  You can have 4 skulks at your ankles in 2 seconds.  Even the leetest of shotguns couldn't handle that short of hacking.
<------OOOooooOOOoo, Hyperlink!
Final Hope Faith, COME ONE COME ALL

May 27, 2005, 04:28:37 PM
Reply #99

Absinthe

  • Legacy Reserved
  • Skulk

  • Offline
  • *

  • 63
    • View Profile
    • http://
Of course a good marine with a shotgun is more valuable than a pack of mines, but that isn’t the issue here. Uberleetproaim with a shotgun isn’t going to be of much use if you can’t phase through a pg in one piece because 2-3 skulks are chewing it down. Put a shotgun in the hands of a good majority of solo defending marine players on this server, and you’ll find you’re out 10 res.

Do you know why the marine tactics on this server seem rather mundane, lame, and with little risk involved? Most of the time it’s because that’s all you’ll ever get away with. I can give you more examples than you’d want to read, but let’s start with the most important ones.

Unlike a scrim/pug/match, you don’t always get the most competent players doing your bidding. Try going comm. on this server sometime and you’ll see exactly what I’m talking about. If you’re damn lucky you will get 4-5 competent (have a brain and listen) players on your team, if you’re extremely lucky 2-3 of them will have enough aim to handle their own in solo situations and get objectives accomplished. You know these marines cuz they outscore the commander early game a lot of the time. The rest of the time you’ll drop a res node and have to recycle it 2 seconds later because some people think they’re invincible when holding the use key.

Maybe it isn’t feasible to lock down hives in a “real” game, but on this server it’s one of your only (if not THE only) option(s) to winning. Keep in mind we’re talking about LM here, am I the only one who finds games are more “even” when marines have 2 hives locked with low weapon upgrades, as opposed to high upgrades / guns vs. hive 2 fades? Personally when I’m alien I find it very easy to focus/celerity fade against marines on this server even when they have crazy upgrades (obviously not full heavy trains). It’s much harder for the few higher lifeform players to clear out an already lamed up hive lockdown, especially the longer the game progresses when marine upgrades start becoming significantly more advantageous.

So what are your options?

- Request that a whole team goes to one hive, locks it down. Regroup, go to second hive, and lock it down also. This is not very difficult to pull off because skulks avoid large packs of marines, and even the clueless members of your team can typically “follow the leader”.

- Trust your team to split up and do various tasks: 1. Base builder, 2. ‘Pressure team’ aggressively pushing on alien nodes, 3. RT capper. Much like clans do.

The people who complain about the hive lockdowns are usually the people who can handle their own, it’s never the nubs – they love lockdowns because it makes their life less stressful. At the same time, the people who usually complain never comm. on pub servers, or if they do expect their marines to play like exigent (CAL-Delta champions) and blame them when they die.

You wouldn’t need to siege in most cases if you could rush a hive with only a pg, plant mines down and get set up, spawn camp the entire alien team until their cue is jammed, then destroy the hive when its relatively safe; but as we all know that’s illegal. To my knowledge that’s the only way I’ve ever seen a marine team in a CAL match win a game before the 7 minute mark. That is also of course assuming your team has aim capable of pulling that off.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein