Overly Chatty Penguins

The Ready Room => General => Topic started by: holy_devil on April 23, 2005, 08:27:45 AM

Title: the problem
Post by: holy_devil on April 23, 2005, 08:27:45 AM: edit: hey, it isn't about shotguns!

running these thoughts by you guys, if it becomes anything of worth perhaps i'll report on ns forums:

atm everyone sees aliens as the team that pretty much wins unless the aliens screw around and do nothing. which sadly, is very, very accurate. "the games are won by 5 minutes played", is indeed the problem we face. hive two can be put up by 3 minutes if you get ~3-5 kills, depending on rfk and rts. i've gotten it up earlier in a full game, but due to luck of owning marines early into the first minute. but as you can plainly see, its possible to get 25 res in about two minutes, as the free(skulk), non upgraded lifeform. RFK may be to blame(in that case it is), but this isn't the only problem.

everyone knows marines can turtle, its not even funny how well they can do it. it'll eventually be broken, with the right combo of abils+lifeforms. however, add heavies to the mix, and its that much harder to break. especially with phasegates. they also have shotguns, which are ridiculously good, but i can't call them overpowered due to the netcode issues. so okay, netcode saves aliens often, but sometimes it also kills them("im down the hall yay" bob killed fade with shotgun "..")

so problems from two short paragraphs are: rfk and netcode. on top of those two issues, we also have the alien res system setup. the way it works, as far as i've noticed, is the following:

say you have 3 res towers, 6 people on a team. very easy to get on most maps, and just as easy to hold. every 4 seconds 3 res is distributed. it goes to every player in an order. so, players 1-3 will get one res a piece for that "tick" of the rt. the next one, the other 3 players get 1 res a piece. and repeats every 4 seconds. pretty nice wouldn't you say, 1 res every 8 seconds for holding a hive, something you need to win anyway? then you can throw in the hope that aliens will be holding hive2, or some other rt. just makes it go faster every time.

RFK gives the resources solely to the killer. so lets say jim kills a marine. he'll get 1-3 res at random, and the normal res from the res tower. throw that together how you want to, 1-3 res is an extra speed of 8-24 seconds. 24 seconds is a long time in this game to just obtain for killing a player, something you have to do. as well, every lifeform can obtain RFK. so that gorge laming up that one room gets all the res for his kills, never really getting back its worth(vs good players) for total cost, but defending a room and getting more res faster(8-24 second skips remember!) to defend yet another room.

overflow allows this to become even nicer! its like removing an entire player calculation wise, while retaining his form and usefulness. free upgrades allow aliens to retain their res better than before, as well. gorges can just build without care or worry if the entire team has overflow.

okay so we have the issue, alien res system is insanely good if they hold res towers at all in a 6 player game. obviously the math dies a little if you add 7/8 players, but ns is "balanced at 6", so thats out, but even at 8 players, 3 rts can win the game for aliens.

marines get all their res to one player, yes. but he has to spend it on high cost global upgrades, which can be argued is cost effective, and they are very nice, which they are. but the problem is he has to save up as much as a gorge does to get these things, and he can't ALSO be giving out weapons(like fades and whatnot), and meds/ammo, rts, phasegates. you can have ~4 upgrades going at once depending, armory/arms lab/obs/arms lab#2. most scenarios, comms will just be upgrading the arms lab for the most part. even then, 40 res early on for a1/w1. comes about the same time aliens start hive2. compareable? not really. add the fact that aliens can also have a fade and a lerk and chambers by now. really uncompareable.

the problem i'm having with all of this is that marines can be very, very strong after they get armor3 heavies with hmgs. they can't be touched. ever. siege anything, just owns. only thing that really hurts them is screamed acid rockets, but to do any real armor damage the fade has to be in los of the marines, and can die to a gl+hmgs(GL does hurt a fade, a lot, if it hits) but theres the giant tic tacs(tactics) arguement you can do, but realistically marines will end up siegeing whatever their target is to death.

so my conclusion on the problem is that the aliens early res flow compared to use is too little. its difficult for marines to start off atm. use a lot of res early, and its usually easily killed since your marines have to be elsewhere taking rts, can't guard everything. if you decide to try the elec strat and elec everything, you're stuck on no upgrades for a good amount of time, usually you're starting a1/mt by the time aliens have hive2 going with chambers up, and a fade or two. but the plus side to that strat is if you push hard enough early, you can take the aliens expansions and hold them for some time, buying you much needed time. but you need what kind of godly marines to do that? clanners probably could do it, but they won't since "gorge healing+skulk = dead elec rt". yea, since it doesn't take them 5 years to do that its a bad idea =]

honestly, only thing marines can do this patch is buy time by going directly for the expansions and holding them. holding them being the hard part, but turrets/elec can handle that at the beginning, which is where the problem is. but again, risk vs reward, you can end up getting owned and have nothing.

moral of my post? ns is unbalanced. the devs want comebacks, which is what the alien res system allows if the marines two hive lockdown but don't get their res, and aliens push back early enough so that marines don't jp or ha the hive to hell and back. so its basically a giant rt battle. for the first 3 minutes. then it really doesn't matter, just as long as you have a few good lifeforms and hive2 out.

i'm not sure how to fix this problem, though. perhaps its the marines fault, for not killing aliens expansions early enough. but in comparison, marines can have 3 rts for the first 3m, all they'll get is pushing to hive2, not what aliens can get(two fades, lerk, hive2, chambers). perhaps vary the tick speed based on the number of aliens on a team? then increase it as the game goes on, or perhaps when a hive goes up, making it so if aliens have 3 hives and 1-2 rts(for whatever random reason, but just an example) they can still come back. i suck at ideas for balancing, so don't take that from the post, just take what im trying to identify as the problem, alien res flow.
Title: the problem
Post by: Cheez on April 23, 2005, 08:37:27 AM: Aliens get less res-per-tick as the team gets bigger, but they get more starting res, so i don't know if the whole "speed up the ticks per player" would work, but its an interesting idea.

As for marines, they only lose if their com is lazy and allows that second hive to go up. At 3-5 minutes he should constantly be checking for that lone gorge putting up hive2 and send a rush to take it down asap. As soon as leap, biobomb, and that second chamber come in, he's done for.

Basically the whole game rides on hive2 for both teams. Winning and losing isn't a problem with the res system or balance, its about what the team does with its res.

Its like playing a tower defence map in wc3. If you have 500 gold, you could build 50 towers randomly and it will kill a few enemies. You could also take that 50 gold and build 50 towers into a maze that holds the enemies back longers and kills off a lot more of them.
Title: the problem
Post by: Plaguebearer on April 23, 2005, 08:39:52 AM: The problem as I see it is that the game is won or lost based on the aliens' second hive... primarily through Bile Bomb. Third hive nowadays (ever since lifeforms were unchained from hives) is just a benny... nobody really cares about it.

So basically, in order to win, rines have to hold base, get res, and lock down two hives within the first three minutes of the game in order to have a =chance= at winning (on average), and even then they have to contend with the Three Minute Wonder Fade.
Title: the problem
Post by: Plaguebearer on April 23, 2005, 08:43:23 AM: lol, cheez and I on the same page, kind of. But really... if aliens wait 5+ minutes to get the second hive started... they're losing already. I'm usually 'hive bitch', i'm no stellar player, but I can usually get enough res thru mystarter res, rfk, and res tower income to be evolving to gorge for a hive drop before the 3 minute mark.

Sometimes I think they should rechain lifeforms to hives. Skulks, lerks, and gorges for one hive, add fades only at hive two, and onos at three.
Title: the problem
Post by: holy_devil on April 23, 2005, 08:45:02 AM: Quote
Aliens get less res-per-tick as the team gets bigger, but they get more starting res, so i don't know if the whole "speed up the ticks per player" would work, but its an interesting idea.

As for marines, they only lose if their com is lazy and allows that second hive to go up. At 3-5 minutes he should constantly be checking for that lone gorge putting up hive2 and send a rush to take it down asap. As soon as leap, biobomb, and that second chamber come in, he's done for.

Basically the whole game rides on hive2 for both teams. Winning and losing isn't a problem with the res system or balance, its about what the team does with its res.

Its like playing a tower defence map in wc3. If you have 500 gold, you could build 50 towers randomly and it will kill a few enemies. You could also take that 50 gold and build 50 towers into a maze that holds the enemies back longers and kills off a lot more of them.
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good points, aliens *do* get a lot of starting res, i overlooked that. it is what basically allows for the 3 minute fade/hive, i'll think about that some more.

the wc3 reference is nice, yea its how the team uses the res. but compare it to marines, they have to build a few things to get started, left with about enough for 1-2 rts off of starting res. aliens can build 2 rts and still have 4 players with 25+ res, so perhaps that is the problem.

Quote
The problem as I see it is that the game is won or lost based on the aliens' second hive... primarily through Bile Bomb. Third hive nowadays (ever since lifeforms were unchained from hives) is just a benny... nobody really cares about it.

So basically, in order to win, rines have to hold base, get res, and lock down two hives within the first three minutes of the game in order to have a =chance= at winning (on average), and even then they have to contend with the Three Minute Wonder Fade.
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third hive allows for acid rocket, which is nice if marines get heavies, but basically as you said, rines have to do an idiotic amount of things in order to stand a chance =/
Title: the problem
Post by: lolfighter on April 23, 2005, 09:10:51 AM: Lifeforms chained to hives make comebacks impossible, period. It's no solution. It becomes way too easy to lock down two hives if the aliens can't get a Fade before the second hive is up. And once you have a solid two-hive lockdown, the aliens have no chance at breaking it. You need bilebombs, Fades or Onos to clear out a good electrified turret farm with a PG.
Title: the problem
Post by: tankefugl (in a tent) on April 23, 2005, 09:11:52 AM: There are less drastic ways of restoring balance to the forc.. erhm, game :cool:
Title: the problem
Post by: Plaguebearer on April 23, 2005, 09:15:05 AM: Perhaps. But in the current environment, it just seems wrong that all it takes is one uberfade to carry the whole team.
Title: the problem
Post by: holy_devil on April 23, 2005, 09:30:36 AM: Quote
Perhaps. But in the current environment, it just seems wrong that all it takes is one uberfade to carry the whole team.
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yea, one fade can do a lot. two are near unstoppable, depending. but the only idea i can come up with to fix this would be the following:

add "lifeform expansions". these would be relative to chambers or hives or something, and cost res. they can add health/speed/adren/whatever. perhaps consider immunity to mt as one of them(sensory based). just a random idea. you can then weaken the fade/onos, so they aren't godmode at hive1, they need a second hive to start being effective solo.

also you can mix things, say you need mcs + dcs to get a lifeform expansion that gives you extra innate regen(nullified if you choose regen) and better adren regeneration(not actual amount)

billion ways to go with that, but its the best idea i can think up. you can nerf a lot of things with that considered, and no it won't be overpowered really. if the lifeform dies, the player has to repurchase the lifeform, and the expansion(s). onos would have to wait a while to get them, but it would be more effective for the onos. fades can get one or something after re-fading, maybe two if they had 100 res.

so yea, summary: lfieform expansions that increase lifeforms abilities to some extent, bought with res. allows nerfing to hive1 lifeforms slightly, so you have to spend more to obtain the now version of the fade.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on April 23, 2005, 09:38:23 AM: The issue is very prominent on this server because commanders are making very, very, very big mistakes and the average skill level of a marine is lacking. When a commander is getting armour 1 by the time they have fades then you're never ever going to win regardless of what other tech you have achieved in this time.

Now personally i don't like playing marine on this server, not because of the inbalance, but a) because i don't trust any of the commanders and b) registry is absolutely shocking at 130 ping, 40 choke vs celerity, non-crouch holding, crack hopping skulks with 0 medpacks and a0. It's even funner when the early lerk turns up with celerity and spores you to death whilst you sit there desperately spamming your med bind. In b5 being a marine was exceptionally easy on this server and it was easy to rack up an impressive ratio, but celerity FUBARS the hitboxes and the commanders are just shocking these days. If i get a medpack i don't request in a fire fight I die of shock. If you put a good commander in the chair and have 1 or 2 competant marines then you'll win, me and a friend of mine did it the other day 3 rounds in a row before we got bored.

The issue is present in other places other than LM, obviously, but here it's just exceptionally bad because of the above reasons. The thing is, you cannot balance for incompetance, if commanders were able to make huge mistakes like they are now and still win, then in a competitive enviroment marines will absolutely dominate.
Title: the problem
Post by: 2_of_8 on April 23, 2005, 10:16:50 AM: Well, let's analyze some of the changes made in the most recent version.

- Reduced Arms Lab cost - Marines
It may seem like such a useful thing, but keep in mind: That's 5 res you're saving - once, possibly twice (if the aliens like hitting base) during the whole game.
- Reduced Observatory cost - Marines
Again. 5 res, and that's almost a one-time thing... even in the most action packed of games, even against sensory - this will be built 5 times, not more. Marines save between 5 and 25 res - again, during the [/b]whole game[/b].
- Removed Upgrade cost - Aliens
2 res saved - but that's for every player, approximately 10 times per game.
Marine improvement - 10-30 res saving. Alien improvement - 120 res saving.

Yes, the resource systems for both sides are different, but please, don't tell me that that the aliens need 4 times as much res as the Marines - because we all know they don't.

So that's one change for you to look at.

Some of the other problems - hitboxes... NS is a game of luck, now. I've watched countless demos of myself (meaning that there is no lag between what I say real-time, and what the demo recorded). I've fiddled around with my rates a bit, I can safely say that they are the best I could get them to be (including messing with interp and such).
I can't blame the NS devs for lag or whatever - that's beyond the scope of their involvement. However, hitboxes - shouldn't be that hard to fix. If I were one of the devs, I'd first try to fix a problem involved throughout the whole game, involving each and every player rather than reducing the cost of a once-in-a-game structure.
Coming back to those demos. NS is a game of luck - and I'm not saying that this is the case all of the time, but please. It's a guessing game now as to where the hitbox of a fast-moving Alien is located - and I see myself not missing shots which should have hit, while those randomly behind the alien hitting.

Next problem - the shotgun. This doens't even deserve it's paragraph of explanation, it's so damn obvious. Aliens are melee fighters, Marines are ranged shooters. [/end NS dev philosophy]. Problems arise when Marines are taking both roles - with the shotgun being made specifically for, but by no means restriced to, close range. Fades go in for a swipe... 2 marines are there with shotguns. 1 hit by each while the fade comes, 1 hit by each when it escapes. Fade down. Of course, I'm assuming here that all the shots hit - and they just might if the Marines are close enough, and the corridor is cramped.

Next - the commander + the fade. The 2 most important roles in the game, inarguably. The whole game depends on them - not as much on the fade (Alien wins exist with no fades - not many against competent teams, but that's beside the point, as there is mainly a lack of such), although still a lot, but an unbelievable amount of responsibility rests on the commander's shoulders. Bad comm = automatic Marine lose, against an Alien team of comparable skill. And good comm = possible Marine win, again against a similarly skilled Alien team.
There is no sure way to win for Marines - they might win, they might not. If they do everything right, it's up to the Aliens to determine the outcome of the game. It's not the same way vice-versa... and this is where facts go away and opinions come in, at least from me. Aliens can rely on 1 or 2 skilled players to win the whole game. How many times have you seen Aliens lose with [insert name of an extremely skilled fade here on LM]? I'll let you answer that one... since I'm not very sure of the answer.
Title: the problem
Post by: Plaguebearer on April 23, 2005, 10:54:37 AM: Depends. I've seen aliens lose with an uberfade simply by virtue of losing all their hives... Either it was a matter of the fade not being able to be everywhere at once, or the fade simply got sloppy, running around racking up kills while rines ninja'd a hive.

God, I wish so much 'strategy' in NS didnt revolve around ninjaing a phase.
Title: the problem
Post by: rad4Christ on April 23, 2005, 10:59:23 AM: Quote
There are less drastic ways of restoring balance to the forc.. erhm, game :cool:
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I'm sorry tanke, but the utter lack of info coming from the dev team has gone far past just pissing me off. As NS is the only game I play, the only reason I have ever thought of quitting (and currently) is the complete silence of the dev team as to what's being done. I understand how secrets are good for PR, but when there's NOTHING about what is being done, what trends the dev team is trying to fix, and any updates of what's happening, then it's just plain stupid. The consti's get nothing, and without being an absolute forumite there is no way of even hearing the smallest tidbit of info...

With that said, there is a problem. I cant' say what it is. I do know my killscore has gone to pot, and as far as I can tell, I AM shooting the other player. I cannot afford to make ANY mistakes as comm, and even when I don't, we still lose ALOT. The dev team AFAIK doesn't really care to tell us not only what the patch will have, but not even what problems they are trying to fix. They don't tell us if they think aliens are overpowered early game, or if marines aren't getting enough tech for the res and time involved, or ANYTHING. So, HD, great explanation, but as far as I am concerned, no one will actually read or respond to it on NS.com that will give you any information. The next release will once again come out and we'll feel like the development team was in a vacuum for the last few months.

Tanke, I'm sorry to vent this on you, but you're group really needs to let us know a little bit more about the current development. At the very least, what is being addressed.
Title: the problem
Post by: pardzh on April 23, 2005, 11:22:47 AM: There are a few things that I see as the problem, here. Mostly revolving around our friend the Fade.

One is how easy it is to hit and run, because of how easy it is to regain health as a Fade, and how hard it is to keep your armor as a Marine. It costs no res whatsoever, and takes minimal time to regain health as a Fade, due to blink. You blink into a room, swipe a couple times at a Marine, and take off. When you come back with full health, he's got no armor, and maybe one swipe left on him. Simple.

On the Marine side, it costs res for medpacks, and it takes player coordination in addition to res for welders to get your armor back. The res dropped on welders and medpacks is small individually, but over time you can blow through a ton of it if you're trying to keep shotgunners alive, or trying to set up a siege spot.

The second is how hard it is to counter this hit and run strategy. Sure, you have shotguns, but you need to be virtually dead on with at least 2 shotgunners to have any effect on a good hit and run Fade. What about HMG's? Well it's 30 res to upgrade the armory, which takes forever to finish. Then you're shelling out res for the HMG's themselves, plus you need at least weaps 2. Now, give me that, and I'll mow down your Fade, but that takes too much time to get to, and too much res invested. Over time, the counter to the Fade costs the Marines far more than 50 res.

Of course there's more to balance, but that's how I weigh in on the Fade.
Title: the problem
Post by: SuicidaL MonkeY on April 23, 2005, 01:10:06 PM: Some people might find this far out there but here it goes...

Back when Dc's were our security blanket, we got tired of the same start as an alien that Mc's started to emerge quite more often than not. Which took the aliens A LONG time to lock down, but it has. As far as sensory, I still find it the ultimate poker hand, very little chance to win, but if they do. Now most commanders up until that point had based their stratigies on defense being dropped first, but since aliens have been dropping movement or sensory more often, the marine commander, most of the time, gets the basics but doesnt make much progress map wise, especially when movement is first and marines accidently hit it before pg is up.

The solution?

I wish i could answer, but i know one person wont solve this. However, i will throw my 2 cents in. I do see the marine team winning now and then since there seem to be alot of new stratigies commanders are trying out. A few of them i found suprised and defeated the aliens pretty well. Many others however do not do nearly as well. I beleve the fate of the marines depends on 2 things.

A Unique Commander Plan

A Marine Team Willing To Watch Each Others Backs

If the marines encounter a fade, and they trap it in a room, 70% of the time the fade dies. Comms now need to be able to think and react quick, now that aliens have regen all the time, MEDPACKS AND AMMO DO ALOT
Title: the problem
Post by: Plaguebearer on April 23, 2005, 09:06:41 PM: I wonder how much of the imbalance boils down to LM's friendly-fire alien crutch for the building hive? It happens almost EVERY game -- a gorge drops a hive, hangs around, and at the first sign of trouble spits the hive, and it starts raining skulks.

Are we making things too easy for aliens?
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Bill on April 23, 2005, 09:23:24 PM: If aliens go mc, I Need to get that 2nd hive locked down, with a farm, or else theres no way in hell Im keeping it. Whenever I see mc's first, I lose almost ANY chance of winning, I mean, you have 2 hives locked down, great. 1 gorge, drops the hive, spits it, and entire team of skulks/fades/lerk. and bam ANYTHING you have in that room will go down almost too fast, and unless you have for-warning to beacon rush all your marines in, there's no way.

Mcs and Scs, game over. 1 fade at a pg will kill anything that comes through it unless you have a lot of meds and armor 3.

maybe making upgrades costing 1 res, would be nice...

But I know LM the server itself, relies HEAVILY on the use of FF, for the fact that when marines attack 1 skulk, they'll hit each other more then the target, and mc rushing to DEATH.

It almost boils down to the fact that the marine team NEEDS to pg rush, and that aliens NEED to mc rush.
Title: the problem
Post by: 2_of_8 on April 23, 2005, 09:39:04 PM: Quote
It almost boils down to the fact that the marine team NEEDS to pg rush, and that aliens NEED to mc rush.
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I'd agree with the former part only - Aliens by no means are restricted to any strategy, while Marines are quickly becoming so.
Title: the problem
Post by: E-Fonzarelli on April 23, 2005, 11:41:13 PM: ass I see it, and i've just started commanding, bile bomb is the biggest problem. It is really powerful, and if you are comm'ing only a couple good people, it is hard to get them to go through a phase gate sometimes.

BB damage needs to be significantly reduced, and i'm betting i'm not the first person to suggest this.
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on April 24, 2005, 02:38:08 AM: The aliens don't need to MC rush. We just have a backwards ass way of playing this game on LM.

The majority of other servers and/or clan games I play on when you take an area you keep it unless it is vital to the other team for some reason. On other pubs marine teams don't bother pressuring your vitals, they just sit in base and hold the 4-5 res nodes closest to you until you can heavy train and march the other 2 hives you don't have locked down. You see these guys on LM every once in a while. These are the guys who sit and base waiting for you to drop god knows what for them, or do cool things like watching other players build structures. They also tend to leave the base only with 300 rounds of LMG ammo and 40 rounds of pistol ammo. I guess on most servers that kind of exquipment is usefull. But if your on LM and I am your com, you are expendable, and I will make sure you don't get to use that much ammo, you can bet your life on that. On aliens these players quickly become unknowticable unless they are not there. They tend to randomly roam the map dropping RTs as a permagorge and the occational one will build a wol somewhere, usually not a very usefull location either, generally somewhere just compleatly random.

Clanners on the other hand know what the hell they are doing on the map. They don't rambo off when there is large ammounts of marine pressure on the hive, they don't start gorging to drop an RT when people are screaming "GET TO THE HIVE" over the mike, they don't attack MS when it is full of turrets at the same time that the marines are building a PG outside of the hive. In a clan game every marine is parasited 80% of the time, and the ALIENS control where on the map the marines get to go, NOT the other way around. Clans that go sensory first win almost every game because once 2-3 sensory chambers are laid in key locations, competent players can hold those locations indefinitely.

On lunixmonster we can't go sensory or DC first because our alien teams are TERRIBLE at defense, and our marine teams are crack rambos. If someone drops a sensory in a hive location (if it is placed well enough that it also reaches into the siege room) I can generally keep that hive location safe alone as a skulk. But it seems I am the only player who can do this. Earlier today we had 3 marines marching on the hive location I had just dropped an SC at and as I attempted to sneak by them when they were just about to stop and drop a PG (so I could healspray the hive if they got in) I had what I can only assume were 3 focus skulks symaltaniously rush the marines within cloaking range of 2 sensory chambers. Long story short they got wasted by the marines and stray fire ended up hitting me as I was sneaking and they got that gorge kill too. I'm entirely convinced that if the cloak radius of SC chambers was removed the way many of the clanners suggest, it would make almost NO difference what so ever to play on LM, because we still don't ever use the damn things properly. On LM the marines dictate to the aliens where they go all game. The marines rambo here, or there, and the aliens are forced to follow along to prevent thier structures from being destroyed. 2 hive lockdowns were never so easy in B5. When did that change?

@HD: I would be the first to admit that onos are fairly buggy and crappy in 3.0f, but you didn't even mention them more then passingly in your post. The counter for HA is onos. If aliens have the res for onos they have a chance against HA teams. Otherwize they are just screwed. A single onos has no trouble soloing a pair of HA if he has stomp. Just eat one and gore the other to death as fast as possible (only takes seconds). If you have a full fledged train, get your onos to stomp them. Stomped heavies are all but useless as they can't stop skulks and fades from tearing holes in thier shiny armor, and they can't heal eachother while they are being massacared. 2-3 decent onos have NO problem taking down all but the most established and well funded siege base, expecially with bilebomb and umbra backup. If you hear HA stomps you should have players saving for onos, not rushing to fade as soon as possible. A late onos is more valuble against heavies then an early fade is.
Title: the problem
Post by: TheAdj on April 24, 2005, 04:21:01 AM: Quote
Quote
There are less drastic ways of restoring balance to the forc.. erhm, game :cool:
[snapback]46786[/snapback]

I'm sorry tanke, but the utter lack of info coming from the dev team has gone far past just pissing me off. As NS is the only game I play, the only reason I have ever thought of quitting (and currently) is the complete silence of the dev team as to what's being done. I understand how secrets are good for PR, but when there's NOTHING about what is being done, what trends the dev team is trying to fix, and any updates of what's happening, then it's just plain stupid. The consti's get nothing, and without being an absolute forumite there is no way of even hearing the smallest tidbit of info...

With that said, there is a problem. I cant' say what it is. I do know my killscore has gone to pot, and as far as I can tell, I AM shooting the other player. I cannot afford to make ANY mistakes as comm, and even when I don't, we still lose ALOT. The dev team AFAIK doesn't really care to tell us not only what the patch will have, but not even what problems they are trying to fix. They don't tell us if they think aliens are overpowered early game, or if marines aren't getting enough tech for the res and time involved, or ANYTHING. So, HD, great explanation, but as far as I am concerned, no one will actually read or respond to it on NS.com that will give you any information. The next release will once again come out and we'll feel like the development team was in a vacuum for the last few months.

Tanke, I'm sorry to vent this on you, but you're group really needs to let us know a little bit more about the current development. At the very least, what is being addressed.
[snapback]46796[/snapback]

Don't you know rad, certain developers are the ****, and know exactly how to fix NS, they don't need puny mortals like us telling them something is wrong.

I pointed out the lack of listening and providing feedback to players (namely competitive, but I guess general public as well), and was promptly told I was off-base and using "rhetoric and destructive argumentation", and that I had to "prove my worth" before I would be listened to by a certain developer that is a LM community member. Needless to say certain developers do not give a flying **** what you think, and you waste your time trying to talk to them in any fashion.
Title: the problem
Post by: Goldy on April 24, 2005, 07:21:15 AM: With FF aliens always get MC because of being able to shoot their unbuilt hive. Then when the marines manage to actually get near one, every single alien shows up with the MC's. Many a pg is overwhelmed that way. Even with a LOT of sieges the aliens usually save the hive because they overwhelm the marines, and have gorge(s) healing the hive as it gets sieged. This isn't so much a problem, it's good teamwork.. except for aliens hitting an unbuilt hive, which is extremely lame.

It depends a lot on the server. Some servers marines always win because all of the good people play marine. Here aliens win because the alien teams are generally better and work as a team. Being a marine generally means waiting to lose.

LM needs better marine teams and less people who are awesome at fade whoring for it all the time. Of course that doesn't mean it's bad to try hard as an alien.. just not every round, especially not if the marines are unskilled. I lean towards not fading unless I think it's needed. Though sometimes I just feel like killing, especially after sitting through a boring loss as a marine.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Bill on April 24, 2005, 08:06:53 AM: Ive actually sorta noticed that aliens dont really try that hard to lock down hives before hand anymore, If you hear mc's first, you can almost be sertain that unless the marines are doing nothing, your going to mc rush that second hive, and third. I don't think aliens should be THAT dependent on MCs, or use mcs to counter THAT Much. (since Mcs counter 2 hive lockdowns, but once you get that second hive its game over for marines for sure practically)
Title: the problem
Post by: Malevolent on April 24, 2005, 11:22:29 AM: I don't feel like getting into this too much, but this could be the problem:

Click Me (http://www.lunixmonster.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3029)

If the unbalance is pissing you off that much, I think it would be smart to try it.
Title: the problem
Post by: Diablus on April 24, 2005, 01:02:14 PM: ita A) the 30 second amazingly good lerk which tends to be almost impossible to kill even with shotguns which leads to the B) 2 - 4 minute unstoppable fade which leads to C)marines Lose.

If anything its the Aliens + the amazing skill power + missboxes.

Also Marines need to learn that 3.0 skulks get the free upgrades, a celerity bunnyhopping skulk can take out 2-3 Marines in a group at times >_<

you cant balance the players, you cant nerf the Alien lifeforms because that "l33t" player isnt there in every game.

I just say we lynch the skilled players >:D
Title: the problem
Post by: pardzh on April 24, 2005, 02:59:54 PM: Quote
If anything its the Aliens + the amazing skill power + missboxes.
[snapback]46885[/snapback]

Bolded for effect. Skulks now have an invisible kevlar helmet.
Title: the problem
Post by: holy_devil on April 24, 2005, 03:31:21 PM: Quote
Quote
If anything its the Aliens + the amazing skill power + missboxes.
[snapback]46885[/snapback]

Bolded for effect. Skulks now have an invisible kevlar helmet.
[snapback]46893[/snapback]

you're implying that the hits register then. which they don't. missboxes ftw!
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on April 24, 2005, 04:34:30 PM: Yes, I say we should amputate leet players arms.
Title: the problem
Post by: lolfighter on April 24, 2005, 06:05:55 PM: Quote
[...]
The issue is present in other places other than LM, obviously, but here it's just exceptionally bad because of the above reasons. The thing is, you cannot balance for incompetance, if commanders were able to make huge mistakes like they are now and still win, then in a competitive enviroment marines will absolutely dominate.
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Not to be snide, but if LM sucks so much compared to other servers, why do you still play here? Please don't see this is an attack, it's an honest question. You gotta admit it doesn't seem logical to play on a sucky server when you know better places to go.
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on April 25, 2005, 03:23:12 AM: Quote
Quote
[...]
The issue is present in other places other than LM, obviously, but here it's just exceptionally bad because of the above reasons. The thing is, you cannot balance for incompetance, if commanders were able to make huge mistakes like they are now and still win, then in a competitive enviroment marines will absolutely dominate.
[snapback]46791[/snapback]
Not to be snide, but if LM sucks so much compared to other servers, why do you still play here? Please don't see this is an attack, it's an honest question. You gotta admit it doesn't seem logical to play on a sucky server when you know better places to go.
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Because they don't ban people for rampant teamkilling on the vet server.

[edit] and maby I missed the point, but marines are NOT dominating in a compeditive environment. A/A ties are an 80% occurance these days.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on April 25, 2005, 03:29:53 AM: EDIT: Yes marines aren't dominating, but is the ratio as bad as it is here? No. It's very map specific but there are ways of winning provided your commander is quick on the meds and your marines are able to hit a barn door with a GL. It's not easy, but you NEED a commander making the right decisions, a commander not getting A1 till 5 minutes is a guarenteed way to lose and that is happening 8/10 on LM.

From my experience on LM a few things are guarenteed to happen with aliens:

You're going to do MC, you're going to have an early lerk (hi 2 of 8). You don't counter this by doing PGs first or farting around with some other weird tangent of teching. You counter this by early a1, welders and a shotgun in the hands of the best marine on the team. It's not difficult on this server to go alien and win and it's not just because of the inbalance. Marines NEED a good commander. Marines NEED at least 1 good marine. All the aliens need to do is have anything resembling a competant public player and you win.

I play on LM because i like the challenge, sometimes it's not particulary good fun but what the hey. My team is in CAL now and we want to do well (hi CAL delta playoffs), i have to get used to having half my bullets not register and learn to adjust my playstyle for that ping.
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on April 25, 2005, 03:38:00 AM: Quote
I like the challenge.

EDIT: Yes marines aren't dominating, but is the ratio as bad as it is here? No. It's very map specific but there are ways of winning provided your commander is quick on the meds and your marines are able to hit a barn door with a GL. It's not easy, but you NEED a commander making the right decisions, a commander not getting A1 till 5 minutes is a guarenteed way to lose and that is happening 8/10 on LM.
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Well I've won my last 4 out of 6 games comming on hera... Last time I checked the marines W/L ratios for hera were 10/86 (as of april 4th) so evidently you aren't entirely wrong. Either that or I am a terrible comm and you are entirely wrong.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on April 25, 2005, 03:53:00 AM: If you want to command and win there are a few ways of doing it:

1 - B5 style, generally best for a map like eclipse of marine where there is still some marine bias. Early a1, early PG, maybe throw some HMGs in and shotgun down/deny second hive with a PG in the middle.

2 - A JP rush, best suited for a map like tanith or hera where there are a lot of 'safe' RTs to cap regardless of hive. Do the AA first, arms lab, a1, w1. Spend the whole match holding your RTs though of course if you're dominating feel free to pressure theirs but at all costs keep yours up. As soon as JPs are done (5 minutes) drop 4, 3 jp shotguns, 1 jp HMG and take down the building hive. Use the HMG to cover vs the lifeforms.

3 - Do either of those strategies and have things go horribly wrong. Aliens get two hives but you place a PG in the hive they don't have. Use your JPs to hold your RTs and maybe JP shotgun down any of theirs. Keep holding RTs till you can afford a HA train and move out to a siege and get the hive down.

Proto tech is still superior to most, even two hive aliens. It's just a matter of getting it into the field. Provided you can keep the aliens on one hive then any proto tech marines can easily dominate. My clan reguraly uses the JP strategy on ns_tanith. Within a minute aliens can go from having the game in the bag to have 1 hive, 1 RT and 0 chambers, that is how effective jetpacks are and that is no exageration.

www.nude-soiree.net/frenchmixtanithmarine.zip This demo from our commanders point of view displays it in action quite nicely though olol he sucked on the meds during that base rush :S
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on April 25, 2005, 04:08:43 AM: Quote
If you want to command and win there are a few ways of doing it:

1 - B5 style, generally best for a map like eclipse of marine where there is still some marine bias. Early a1, early PG, maybe throw some HMGs in and shotgun down/deny second hive with a PG in the middle.

2 - A JP rush, best suited for a map like tanith or hera where there are a lot of 'safe' RTs to cap regardless of hive. Do the AA first, arms lab, a1, w1. Spend the whole match holding your RTs though of course if you're dominating feel free to pressure theirs but at all costs keep yours up. As soon as JPs are done (5 minutes) drop 4, 3 jp shotguns, 1 jp HMG and take down the building hive. Use the HMG to cover vs the lifeforms.

3 - Do either of those strategies and have things go horribly wrong. Aliens get two hives but you place a PG in the hive they don't have. Use your JPs to hold your RTs and maybe JP shotgun down any of theirs. Keep holding RTs till you can afford a HA train and move out to a siege and get the hive down.

Proto tech is still superior to most, even two hive aliens. It's just a matter of getting it into the field. Provided you can keep the aliens on one hive then any proto tech marines can easily dominate. My clan reguraly uses the JP strategy on ns_tanith. Within a minute aliens can go from having the game in the bag to have 1 hive, 1 RT and 0 chambers, that is how effective jetpacks are and that is no exageration.

www.nude-soiree.net/frenchmixtanithmarine.zip This demo from our commanders point of view displays it in action quite nicely though olol he sucked on the meds during that base rush :S
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Hera has this funny architexture where it isn't really that huge a map, but it still takes forever to get anywhere. Being that it takes forever to get anywhere that should mean that every node is practically impossible to hold. Here is where our friend the electric strat comes in. Just get all your marines to head in the opposite direction of the hive and cap everything up as fast as possible. This usually means the aliens ignoring the far side hive, even if they went movement first. Phase 2 is to get phase and get all your marines in some location where they can start taking down alien nodes (which the aliens don't like much, but can't do alot about until you either get too close to thier hive or they get hive two up. After this the key locations to hold are processing and/or that little dinky node between archiving and data core that is like impossible to assult as aliens. PGs go in either of these locations, and you seige down data from processing, be it the original hive or the new fancy going up hive. After that all you have to do is hold your 2 hive lockdown and electrify any node on the map you missed before (I usually don't worry about cargo or hera and only electrify farther out nodes). Hold everything and HA or JP rush thier last hive to death. Beacons and PG are your best friends here.
Title: the problem
Post by: Dead_Meat on April 25, 2005, 11:02:51 AM: Can the marine starting res be changed by a server side variable?
if so could more balance be obtained by increasing the rine starting res to lik 150?
Title: the problem
Post by: SlickWill on April 25, 2005, 12:03:04 PM: Dead Meat, that is a pretty good idea...best one so far, imo.
Title: the problem
Post by: 2_of_8 on April 25, 2005, 12:34:08 PM: Well... there's mp_team1damagepercent. Although changing it will adversely affect # of bites/bullets/etc
Title: the problem
Post by: Niteowl on April 25, 2005, 01:35:10 PM: Quote
rad4Christ,Apr 23 2005, 08:59 AM]I cannot afford to make ANY mistakes as comm, and even when I don't, we still lose ALOT.
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Quoted for Hoots! i mean, truth!

Meaning I feel the same way when I comm.
Title: the problem
Post by: ^Zunni^ on April 25, 2005, 02:22:28 PM: Hi folks....

Just thought I'd waddle in and drop my 2 cents on this thread, hopefully clearing up a few misconceptions on the way...

Starting with the easy stuff..

Hitboxes are not easy to fix.. want proof? We had something that "worked" in B5, as well as B6/3.0 yet PT'ing proved that they didn't work correctly or there were fatal flaws in them. So for each release we've had a solution that simply didn't hold up.

In 3.1 we are again working on some hitbox related things in an attempt to fix them for good. So far the feedback has been positive but who knows what further testing will find.

Which leads nicely in Rad's post... A) if you have questions, ask.. Someone wanted to know about HLTV in 3.1 on the NS forums (http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92378) and while I can't say for 100% certain, it's clear we are aware of the issues and are deciding where along the fix time-line they fit.
B) Often features/balance tweaks look completely different when they are designed vs. when they are released (cloaking went through at least 10 permutations), and we've made the decision not to get people's hopes up only to have them dashed (you all saw what happened when we were unable to keep the fixed Hitboxes in, mass confusion where people didn't understand/wouldn't understand). So it's a decision we've made to not release the details of what's being included until things are more finalized..

But I'm certainly not opposed to saying this release (3.1) will have some new movement techniques, some fixes to long time pains, some usability fixes and some other things as well. But also understand we are in the middle of writing this code, so what is on our scope list may change based on time/issues that appear etc..

As bits are completed, and added to the base code for good, we begin deciding how we want to handle PR and releasing of this information. Last time I started giving info out over a month before we were even close to completing the version. (Mappers profiles with new images etc and the first few fixes/changes)

So I'm not sure what I can do to help improve that... (Side note, you know where I live (in terms of IRC etc) PM me anytime with questions...)

TheAdj': Don't know if you noticed but at least 10-15 changes for 3.0f came straight out of the I&S forum, so it's really difficult to claim that no-one's listening when it's blatently obvious we are. Perhaps there's a little hostility because we aren't specifically listening to everyone of your ideas... The scope of 3.1 also contains a fair number of I&S suggestions and I hope they all get in because they are great ideas. (expects a mad dash to the I&S forums now :) )

As well, people were complaining about "happy meal" phases, and we made a change to address that. People were complaining about a lack of start res for marines and while we simply didn't smack an extra 10 res on starting res we adjusted the cost of 2 of the starting buildings, one of which could end up paying more than once. So we even released a patch SPECIFICALLY in an attempt to deal with issues brought up less than a month before....

----

We aren't as blind as people like to make us out to be, while we specifically don't say "Well person X it's obvious you know more about this than we do", we certainly read everything (actually we have spent a fair amount of time in the clan based balance thread found here http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....pic=91959&st=90 (http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=91959&st=90) as well as balance type threads on many community sites (how do you think I ended up here?)) and discuss things at great lengths.

Hope that helps..

Mark
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on April 25, 2005, 02:32:08 PM: A 150 res boost might work on LM, but it couldn't be applied everywhere. A JP rush would be SO easy without that much starting res within a competitive enviroment. You'd really not have to even try.
Title: the problem
Post by: tankefugl (in a tent) on April 25, 2005, 02:43:24 PM: *snip*

^Zunni^ said it.
Title: the problem
Post by: Dead_Meat on April 25, 2005, 02:53:48 PM: well i was thinking if the res was a sever side variable that could be server specific
then the lm could maybe try diff start res to give the rines a lil jumpstart
and not necciarily 150 maybe 120 just enough to give 1 more upgrade or something

with 8 vrs 8 aliens start with 200 ress and rines are 100
and aliens dont have to spend as much to upgrade

it was just a thought
Title: the problem
Post by: 2_of_8 on April 25, 2005, 03:05:04 PM: Quote
well i was thinking if the res was a sever side variable that could be server specific
then the lm could maybe try diff start res to give the rines a lil jumpstart
and not necciarily 150 maybe 120 just enough to give 1 more upgrade or something

with 8 vrs 8 aliens start with 200 ress and rines are 100
and aliens dont have to spend as much to upgrade

it was just a thought
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Comparing res costs for Aliens/Marines really doesn't work, as their economies work quite differently...
More people on aliens = less res per person (fades, lerks)
More people on marines = similar res per person (armour, weapon upgrades)
Title: the problem
Post by: Dead_Meat on April 25, 2005, 04:06:52 PM: yeah but aliens can have 4 res nodes and chambers going up in the first min
while 2 of 8 horz for lerk

rines only get ip=20, armory-10, 2 res nodes 30, arms lab, and armor 1 =20

so after 1 min aliens have 5 nodes pumpin and a lerk on crank while rines have 2 nodes so aliens start with more and can get res faster then of course those pesky aliens start eatin rine nodes

note: from my observation on lm most alien teams actually have 3 nodes at 1min and the 4th by 2 as theres always a slow poke

the rines usally get 2-3 up but then once the gorges that put nodes up go back to skulk rine nodes start going down
Title: the problem
Post by: Malevolent on April 25, 2005, 04:15:20 PM: Marines can cap nodes very fast (faster than aliens actually). If you get 4 or 5 people to go out right away, you'll have 3 or 4 RTs in no time because of power building. At this point, there won't be a huge influx of skulks because they are gorging, so you'll only run into a couple. Even if one group of marines dies, there will be another one going the opposite way. That is why the electrification strat works so good if you act fast and get down to business.

EDIT: Spelling.
Title: the problem
Post by: Niteowl on April 25, 2005, 05:53:02 PM: Who is this zunni guy!?!? Perhaps CAPTAIN CANADA CAN HELP!!!!
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on April 25, 2005, 06:34:07 PM: I can cap nodes ok.

I can tech up ok.

It goes pearshaped when I try to hit a hive.. and that was because I used a PG.

TBH, if you're dropping A1 early (and its my first game goal) then you just rush for jps and go for death from above. JPs and shotties decide virtually every marine game on LM. Even when you're losing to 2-3 hive aliens, you can shotty down a hive and have res left over to try again. Its insane.

Its also pretty sad that PGs/sieges/HA are virtually obsolete. Don't get me wrong, I hated the rinse repeat 2.0 days of ninja PG, siege farm, HA walk into hive, but at the same time a JP Shotty rush isn't much better.

Game as it stands on LM is just too limited in terms of strategy.
Title: the problem
Post by: ^Zunni^ on April 25, 2005, 07:54:16 PM: Quote
Who is this zunni guy!?!? Perhaps CAPTAIN CANADA CAN HELP!!!!
[snapback]47038[/snapback]

You bastard.. That's it I'm taking away your mention in my new interview AND all the meeces!!!!
Title: the problem
Post by: holy_devil on April 25, 2005, 08:25:12 PM: appreciate the input, zunni. the pr for the last patch was nice, at least we got to hear some things. any kind of input is nice, just tell us as you add it =] always nice to have those little annoying things fixed to look forward to, then you can say "well thats annoying, but at least its gone next patch." etc =]

also, the server side only patches are nice. good show for pr imo, shows you're keeping up with the issues at the very least, maybe you're more ahead than we know =P

i'd still be curious to see armor3 rushes in clan matches, if anyone has a demo to point me towards where it was used during 3.02 i'd be curious to see it.
Title: the problem
Post by: devicenull on April 25, 2005, 08:34:51 PM: It might be nice if servers could set their own balance. Give us a bunch of cvars, say marine_start_res, with a default value. Then, it would be quite easy to adjust this to achieve a balanced server. Possibly, take the values from all the servers (have it update similarly to the icons), and find averages. This *should* give you a balanced game. It should also be possibly to auto-generate a new config file, once a week or so.

It would be pretty easy to just grab a new config file, and try it on the server for awhile. Anything that seemed like it wasn't balanced could be tweaked.

I think involving all the servers is the best way to achieve balance. Confining it to one or two test servers is not the way to go.

Sure, you may have people abusing this one way or another.. but not for long. How many people will play on a server where all the marine structures are free? Would you want to be the aliens there?

The only problem I could see is in clan play. That's easily solved by having the server retrieve default values, and not allow them to be changed when mp_tournamentmode is enabled. I'm not sure how difficult this would be to implement, but I think it would effect the game for the better.
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on April 25, 2005, 09:05:01 PM: Waaah Zunni escaped I&S, APOCALYPSE!

Patch PR is an absolute....... female dog.

On one hand, some people can react normally to "we changed X and Y because our reasoning was Z" and accept it and drive on.

Sadly its the percentage who go "OGMWTFBBQ lame change ololol observe my flawed logic saying u r teh wrongzorz" which knacker the whole thing.

PG and structure costs were very obviously a nod to complaints about the lunch portal and an enhanced aliens earlygame (hello SC).

I don't even mind so much about the missboxes, its just the fact that the marine game is cookie cutter. Maybe that IS an LM only issue, so fair enough, but even without FF you've still got A1 being effectively mandatory for 2/3 of games.

I say 2/3 because, as I stated elsewhere, if you are of equal or lesser skill to the aliens, then A1 will give you enough edge to either equal or outclass them. W1 is pretty pointless unless you are 100% certain of outskilling the aliens. This doesnt change even if you take into account chambers, because armour is superior to MC/SC, and evens out DC. W1 is pretty foolhardy versus MC/SC (unless you're outskilling your opponents, natch).

Server specific variables are interesting, I mean thats how most servers tweak their game. Released games have all sorts of scoring and weapon variables that people can use. AvP2 allowed you to change the points won from killing each class of player. You had servers that gave few points for killing huggers/bursters, and gave more for killing drones, encouraging players to make big kills as opposed to bodycamping.

In NS, you could translate this as allowing different RFK scoring for certain lifeforms/upgrades. Thats one example. Another would be custom costs for upgrades/etc. While this would lead to an initially chaotic pub circuit, it would soon balance out.. then you would only need serverspy or similar in order to see how the players are voting with their feet.

It also means you could truly have some sort of competitive setup versus a public setup. Again, thats how it works for other released games. There's the defaults, competitive play tweaks, and public server tweaks. NS is a strange beast because there's not an awful lot to be tweaked on the server end, afaik.

Yes, you would get some silly servers, like the AvP2 ones with lifecycle on, one kill = queen, 5 exosuits, and tracking weapons only...... but for each of those, there would be many more servers where admins had made only minor tweaks.

Hm, maybe I should have put that in I&S.

Anyhow, I agree with Nully, more tweak options would be fun.
Title: the problem
Post by: rad4Christ on April 26, 2005, 10:24:21 AM: Quote
Which leads nicely in Rad's post...

A) if you have questions, ask.. Someone wanted to know about HLTV in 3.1 on the NS forums (http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92378) and while I can't say for 100% certain, it's clear we are aware of the issues and are deciding where along the fix time-line they fit.

B) Often features/balance tweaks look completely different when they are designed vs. when they are released (cloaking went through at least 10 permutations), and we've made the decision not to get people's hopes up only to have them dashed (you all saw what happened when we were unable to keep the fixed Hitboxes in, mass confusion where people didn't understand/wouldn't understand). So it's a decision we've made to not release the details of what's being included until things are more finalized..

Zunni, to A), I see plenty of other people ask. I read the responses, but we really need a better way, a news post, something than having to troll the forums day in and day out. To B ), I completely understand that exact changelogs are not possible. But how hard is it to place a news item on NS.com stating "We understand that Sensory Chambers need a boost and are currently working on a solution". That IS better than nothing. I was partially privied to the hitbox bugs as a consti. I admired what was done, but I also saw how they needed to be fixed. And I understand the public changelog with hitbox change already in it, then having ot remove the feature caused some confusion. But if you're working on the hitbox bug, how hard is it to say "We are currently on track for 3.1. Some changes include possible marine upgrade cost reductions, lifeform costs, and continued work on hitboxes. We may not be able to roll out all these features in the next patch, but progress is being made in each area. Our goal is to help correct the game imbalance aliens have over marines at second hive."

I made the changes up, but the point is you made two very big points. One, the dev team agrees alien early-mid game is too powerful (if that's the case), and two you see a sneak peek of what is being tested (not implemented) to help. I also know too much info on the PT process and you run into too many rampant speculations, but TBH, official silence gets annoying.

Quote
But I'm certainly not opposed to saying this release (3.1) will have some new movement techniques, some fixes to long time pains, some usability fixes and some other things as well. But also understand we are in the middle of writing this code, so what is on our scope list may change based on time/issues that appear etc..

See, this is exactly something I'd love to hear. I'm glad you are willing to come to the LM community to make this post, and especially talk to my specific points, but why isn't this in a place where everyone can have the benefit? Get what I'm saying? A monthly/weekly/biweekly update on 3.1 would be great. I said somehting about a Developer's Journal on NS, not because I want to know the inner workings of how Tanke chased down a minor bug for three days, but just what area of NS was being developed, or what balance changes were being made (not specifics, but somehting like "we're working on giving early game marine teams the ability to respond to alien upgrades faster". It's not much, and shouldn't take but a few minutes a week to summarize the development status. IT could even be "We knocked out 3 bugs this week from our list, and the PT's are steadily bringing us info on what needs to be tweaked. All in all progress is good" or "We ran into a nasty problem this week with one of our builds. PT's are trying to pin it down, but this bug has delayed our progress a little. We hope to have things ironed out for our next PT build"...
Title: the problem
Post by: Niteowl on April 26, 2005, 11:01:55 AM: Quote
Quote
Who is this zunni guy!?!? Perhaps CAPTAIN CANADA CAN HELP!!!!
[snapback]47038[/snapback]

You bastard.. That's it I'm taking away your mention in my new interview AND all the meeces!!!!
[snapback]47054[/snapback]
This post was MUCH funnier when you had your Captain Canada avatar up!

And yes, what rad said! More info for the fanbois! If it's not too much hassle! Which it might be!
Title: the problem
Post by: devicenull on April 26, 2005, 01:48:31 PM: Quote
Yes, you would get some silly servers, like the AvP2 ones with lifecycle on, one kill = queen, 5 exosuits, and tracking weapons only...... but for each of those, there would be many more servers where admins had made only minor tweaks.

Hm, maybe I should have put that in I&S.

Anyhow, I agree with Nully, more tweak options would be fun.
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I did, go reply with what you did here.. http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....=ST&f=5&t=92487 (http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=92487)
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on April 26, 2005, 05:45:12 PM: Beat me to the punch. Good job, Batman.
Title: the problem
Post by: RangerAlpha on May 14, 2005, 07:26:01 PM: Strange would-get-me-shot-on-I&S-idea. Make meta give less/no energy, preferably no. Increases fade turnaround time (meaning more than 2 seconds to be at full energy/hp again), Makes them actually need energy management, like all other aliens (except pre-leap skulks), makes field mcs more needed, because they are sorely lacking a field use for non-gorges, which i believe they should have, cuz it may make them more prevalent.
My hopes: lets fades keep being a killing machine, but they dont have obscene turnaround times, hence, shooting a fade may actually DO something.

I was going to suggest modular GL reloading options, but i realized the coding issues and pre-emptively shot myself down.

That, or make rts(both sides) have 4000 hp, so its worth shooting them as opposed to a hive, because as of now 1 hive = 2.1 res nodes of killing required, and any marine would rather kill a hive than two res nodes. Marines really can't save their rts anyhow, so this WOULD nerf marines, just not as much. OR not, this change is basically impossible for me to imagine the implications, which is why i want it. Anything could happen!
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on May 16, 2005, 05:44:22 AM: Quote
Strange would-get-me-shot-on-I&S-idea. Make meta give less/no energy, preferably no. Increases fade turnaround time (meaning more than 2 seconds to be at full energy/hp again), Makes them actually need energy management, like all other aliens (except pre-leap skulks), makes field mcs more needed, because they are sorely lacking a field use for non-gorges, which i believe they should have, cuz it may make them more prevalent.
My hopes: lets fades keep being a killing machine, but they dont have obscene turnaround times, hence, shooting a fade may actually DO something.

I was going to suggest modular GL reloading options, but i realized the coding issues and pre-emptively shot myself down.

That, or make rts(both sides) have 4000 hp, so its worth shooting them as opposed to a hive, because as of now 1 hive = 2.1 res nodes of killing required, and any marine would rather kill a hive than two res nodes. Marines really can't save their rts anyhow, so this WOULD nerf marines, just not as much. OR not, this change is basically impossible for me to imagine the implications, which is why i want it. Anything could happen!
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Meta is useless enough as it is. Without the adren boost it really doen't provide enough health to be worth it most of the time.

One explorable option is to make it require a larger mimimum adreniline. That way fades wanting to use meta will have to keep an eye on their energy moreso then normal.
Title: the problem
Post by: Goldy on May 16, 2005, 08:08:05 AM: I feel like I already have to worry a lot about my energy, especially after that one patch where there was no more endless blink.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on May 16, 2005, 08:24:56 AM: bind attack +mwheeldown
Title: the problem
Post by: Nooblet on May 17, 2005, 03:54:34 AM: Someone needs to code a new admin cvar: admin_hiveff 0|1

Turns off|on FF on hive. Aliens can't movement over to hive asap anymore and will have to lock them down. If aliens cant movement over anymore then they will need to drop OCs and WoLs this will deter most ninjas, hence lowering the always ninja aspect of the game. THE main thing is and will always be about skill balance. As right now the aliens need less skill then marines. As it has be said befor marines NEED a good comm (thats what this game was made around so thats a nobrainer) but also the marines HAVE TO HAVE A TEAM THAT DAMN FOLLOW ORDERS AND DAMN WELL SHOOT SOMETHING! aliens just need to camp somewhere and fall on a marine. But yes aliens also need the skill to push marines back its just this issue is that the skill balance leans more towards the aliens.
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on May 17, 2005, 09:47:01 AM: Quote
Someone needs to code a new admin cvar: admin_hiveff 0|1

Turns off|on FF on hive. Aliens can't movement over to hive asap anymore and will have to lock them down. If aliens cant movement over anymore then they will need to drop OCs and WoLs this will deter most ninjas, hence lowering the always ninja aspect of the game. THE main thing is and will always be about skill balance. As right now the aliens need less skill then marines. As it has be said befor marines NEED a good comm (thats what this game was made around so thats a nobrainer) but also the marines HAVE TO HAVE A TEAM THAT DAMN FOLLOW ORDERS AND DAMN WELL SHOOT SOMETHING! aliens just need to camp somewhere and fall on a marine. But yes aliens also need the skill to push marines back its just this issue is that the skill balance leans more towards the aliens.
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That's acctually a pretty good idea... Not because it would make nubbing LM easier, but because several non FF servers wanted to have hive FF added to closer imitate compeditive gameplay...

Of course we could use it to ruin LM as well... <_<
Title: the problem
Post by: ^Zunni^ on May 17, 2005, 10:35:35 AM: Actually more likely MC's will be able to eventually just transport people to building hives with or without FF.....

So the exact opposite of what's being suggested..
Title: the problem
Post by: Nooblet on May 17, 2005, 11:29:24 AM: Thats so not what needs to be done. All aliens need to to is go back to the OCing and WoL of every damn corner days and keep ninjas out. Todays games of NS are almost all about whoring for something need more focus on building for aliens. Movt to unbuilt hive is NOT what needs to be done, and yes I understand that marines get PGs but they are smarter and cooler and leet more so then the aliens. So there!
Title: the problem
Post by: Goldy on May 18, 2005, 10:57:37 AM: Ya, lots of people have suggested making it so aliens can't attack their own hive and then MC there. Doing the opposite sounds pretty horrible to me. Then new hives are in no way vulnerable whatsoever at all in ANY way. :p
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on May 19, 2005, 03:49:37 AM: Quote
Ya, lots of people have suggested making it so aliens can't attack their own hive and then MC there. Doing the opposite sounds pretty horrible to me. Then new hives are in no way vulnerable whatsoever at all in ANY way. :p
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Those people are all LMers. Normal people like hive warping as a feature.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on May 19, 2005, 06:06:40 AM: Hive warping is countered by competance and forsight. You know that when the hive is attacked aliens WILL mc in. So you move into the hive, you secure it, if theres an alien on top its a bit more problematic but still not a big issue. If there's no alien in the hive you put a PG up in the hive, if there is just use one that is further back. Place mines, 2 or 3 packs on the floor, best used by people who have an idea of where the spawn spots are. You attack the hive with ONE bullet, aliens MC in, you kill the aliens, once their spawn queue is clogged up you kill the hive.

Making it so that the hive has to be under attack adds an element of teamwork and skill for both sides. Aliens need to maintain a presence in the hive at all times, marines need to control any presence. Making it so you can MC whenever will actually make things retardedly easy and remove an element of control that marines have when fighting MC first aliens. It's not like marines don't have it hard enough as it is, why would you buff the aliens even more? If it's for the people who play on non-FF servers then fine, but the change should be removed when ff is on, or I guarentee the clan scene will have a fit, it'd really **** everything.
Title: the problem
Post by: aeroripper on May 19, 2005, 07:45:08 AM: Quote
Hive warping is countered by competance and forsight. You know that when the hive is attacked aliens WILL mc in. So you move into the hive, you secure it, if theres an alien on top its a bit more problematic but still not a big issue. If there's no alien in the hive you put a PG up in the hive, if there is just use one that is further back. Place mines, 2 or 3 packs on the floor, best used by people who have an idea of where the spawn spots are. You attack the hive with ONE bullet, aliens MC in, you kill the aliens, once their spawn queue is clogged up you kill the hive.

Can't place mines in building\active hive in LM unfortunately.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on May 19, 2005, 09:38:52 AM: rofl
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on May 19, 2005, 11:01:20 AM: Quote
Quote
Hive warping is countered by competance and forsight. You know that when the hive is attacked aliens WILL mc in. So you move into the hive, you secure it, if theres an alien on top its a bit more problematic but still not a big issue. If there's no alien in the hive you put a PG up in the hive, if there is just use one that is further back. Place mines, 2 or 3 packs on the floor, best used by people who have an idea of where the spawn spots are. You attack the hive with ONE bullet, aliens MC in, you kill the aliens, once their spawn queue is clogged up you kill the hive.

Can't place mines in building\active hive in LM unfortunately.
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Part of the reason I think its really stupid that building hives have been included in that. You don't like MC rushes and then you remove one of the only effective counters.
Title: the problem
Post by: aeroripper on May 19, 2005, 02:44:04 PM: Quote
Part of the reason I think its really stupid that building hives have been included in that. You don't like MC rushes and then you remove one of the only effective counters.

I strongly agree with this. I was thinking about different ways to counter a MC rush when your trying to shoot down a hive and all i could think of was mines. Outside of sieging but its damn near impossible to hold sieges and men when everybody on the alien team is in that (building) hive in a few seconds. If we could place mines at least it would probably kill the upgraded skulks which IMO are the biggest problem in MC rushes.

Although i do see the reason in active hives because its sorta like spawn camping i guess.
Title: the problem
Post by: Plaguebearer on May 19, 2005, 03:39:55 PM: The spawncamping issue is why, I believe, 'building' hives got included in the no mines rule... if the hive is about to go up, then the rines come and plop down a mine on every spawn point, then the hive goes up...

...is it spawncamping?

Having to adjudicate issues like this are how rules like that come about.
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on May 21, 2005, 04:59:23 AM: Again, much like the realworld legal profession, people always look for loopholes in rules, and a mines are ok in a building hive soon becomes "if you think a hive is about to drop, spam mines like mad, that way you're not breaking the rule for mines in active hive".

Its the difference between people who follow the spirit of the rules, and the letter of the rules. The spirit of the rules is NO SPAWNCAMPING.
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on May 22, 2005, 11:16:40 PM: Quote
Again, much like the realworld legal profession, people always look for loopholes in rules, and a mines are ok in a building hive soon becomes "if you think a hive is about to drop, spam mines like mad, that way you're not breaking the rule for mines in active hive".

Its the difference between people who follow the spirit of the rules, and the letter of the rules. The spirit of the rules is NO SPAWNCAMPING.
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Have it fall under llamaish behaviour to try to curve around the letter of the law like that. In my opinion a few questionably placed temp bans is better then compleatly removing the only counter to a valid stratigey in the game.
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on May 23, 2005, 12:24:13 PM: They said the same thing about cc blocking.
Title: the problem
Post by: Nooblet on May 24, 2005, 04:16:41 AM: Another thing. SoF needs to be put back to damaged marines only for a lifeform upgrade. I understand the ideal that marines get MT aliens get SoF, BUT unlike MT SoF always works. MT stops working the the lifeform stops to counter this SoF needs to be droped back to where it was only a damaged marine showed. Now Sens chambers still see all in there AoE but the upgrade SoF is damaged only. This will also make hiding FUN AGAIN!
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on May 24, 2005, 05:21:53 AM: Quote
They said the same thing about cc blocking.
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Zunni never said such a thing!

[edit] @nooblet: Sof stops working if the rine is in the same room as you (and not behind anything)
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on May 24, 2005, 11:00:37 AM: I dont think zunni said memorising the spawn points and spamming mines on them is legit either.
Title: the problem
Post by: Goldy on May 24, 2005, 12:28:57 PM: Ok, people keep talking about knowing where the spawn points are. Are some players actually obsessed enough to do that? Even if you know where they are, I would hope they are used randomly rather than in a particular order.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on May 24, 2005, 01:52:53 PM: No one knows exact spawn points, but mines on the floor of a hive will generally hit a skulk.
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on May 24, 2005, 05:16:07 PM: Exact, maybe not, but pretty darned close is generally the order of the day.

I only speak from experience, where you blow up as you spawn. Thats a barrel of fun, right there.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on May 25, 2005, 02:19:50 AM: Yeah and losing as marine because the server blocks a valid strategy to counter a very powerful alien ability is GREAT. Jeez, no game is always happy times and never will be. I can understand being spawned camp, but dying to a mine in an UNBUILT hive is just utter overkill. It's like banning for camping off a PG, OMG I PHASED AND DIED HOW UNFUN QUICK CALL THE LAME POLIEC!
Title: the problem
Post by: mr. pie on May 25, 2005, 05:53:01 AM: Currently I think one of the biggest balance problems has to do with map layout. There are alot of hives that are unreasonably difficult to siege, requiring marines to rush in and become fodder for aliens spawning or movementing in and getting free attacks from behind while also benefiting from the hive regen. The most common siege areas are small cramped hallways that become even more cramped when you start putting tfs and turrets in them. So what you end up with is marines being stuck with low mobility and highly vulnerable to spores and skulks that can use marines and structures to block the majority of incoming fire. With LM having FF on you see marines taking quite a bit of team damage in these scenarios, as well as it being the main reason why grenade launchers are used so infrequently on the server. Places like the refinery hive on bast and mother hive on nancy give the aliens a significant advantage and I often see a bunch of res and time wasted on sieges that have very little chance of succeeding.

To combat this problem marine commanders need to have their marines put pressure on the aliens inside the hive and keep only 2 or so marines at the pg/tf. A single marine unloading his lmg clip into a fade can force it to retreat and heal before it will feel safe assaulting the main marine presence, more marines can hold off most of the alien team long enough for a couple guys to get sieges up. The goal shouldn't be to go fully into the hive and kill chambers or gorges but to keep the aliens at bay and keep the fighting away from the blocking turrets. And once the sieges are up the marines need to run in and shoot the hive, which thankfully seens to be happening more often as of late. There are still locations like sewer hive on caged where the geometry makes this really difficult but it is very effective on maps like eclipse and origin.

Another problem is the mid to late game rt advantage for aliens. Once the marines start focusing on hitting hives and put less effort into building/capturing new rts the aliens gradually pull ahead in regards to incoming res as they are able to use a single skulk to take out the majority of the marine res towers. And since aliens will have access to fades, leap and a second set of upgrades they have no problems reacting to hivesight warnings of rt's under attack and dispatching the marines or at least keeping them from damaging the rt while they defend themselves and more aliens arrive. Marines also are at a much greater disadvantage when attacking rts as both knifing and shooting the rt down leaves the marine extremely vulnerable. If the marine knifes he must stand right next to the rt while the constant sound effects make it difficult to hear incoming skulks, and when they do show up there's a delay to switch weapons that gives skulks time to close distance. If the marine shoots the rt he spends half his time with an empty clip and reloading with no way to defend himself effectively. Meanwhile a skulk isn't at any great disadvantage while biting an rt since it provides an effective shield from bullets and the marines focusing on the biting skulk are very susceptible to an ambush from another alien.

There's not any real way for marines to counter this disadvantage. If they send more people in larger groups that's pressure taken off hives or more critical locations and the people shooting or knifing still put the group at a disadvantage if the aliens attack in numbers. You can give out heavy weapons to make the rts die faster but there are still disadvantages with reloading and it's very easy to lose the weapon and watch the res spent on it go down the drain. Motion tracking does give a benefit when used in conjuction with the mini-map but you still end up in big trouble versus fades and leap. The benefit electrification gives goes away quickly once you have gorges bile bombing and an increasing number of fades. The only effective solution I can see is to decrease the total hp of alien rts so they go down faster. This would also provide a more active role for gorges as they'll need to heal the rts but changing it is in the dev's hands and could cause early game imbalance.

Overall I'd say marines need to play more agressively early game and put more priority on killing alien rts as the game progresses. In the very beginning of a game especially marines need to try and get deeper map penetration, they can oftentimes kill a gorge or two before it gets an rt up. Having the first couple marines out of base proceed directly to hives can also give you great early game map presence and the aliens will have to attack you instead of laying in wait and ambushing when and where they want.
Title: the problem
Post by: Niteowl on May 25, 2005, 09:01:49 AM: I think I speak for everyone when I say

1) who the heck is mr. pie!?
2) Longest, first post, evar.

And a note on the actual post. If the rines are aggressive enough in their initial assault, aliens will be hard put to organize ONE skulk to go out and take down rts. If the comm can get an above average player to do RT duty, taking down their rts, puttting up rine ones, the game is 50% won.

I think the key is the initial alien rt takedown, along with proper tech counters early.
Title: the problem
Post by: rad4Christ on May 25, 2005, 09:32:05 AM: I know Mr.Pie. But I still think caek is better.
Title: the problem
Post by: Legionnaired on May 25, 2005, 09:35:16 AM: Quote
I know Mr.Pie. But I still think caek is better.
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Infidel.

I've played with Mr. Pie before, he's a good fade and a nice shot as well. Nice bloke, far as I can tell.

And, you raise a lot of good points, which I'm far too tired to respond to. Perhaps later I'll edit this post and make it less useless.
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on May 25, 2005, 04:04:24 PM: "the server blocks a valid strategy to counter a very powerful alien ability"

Yes, IIRC that was the same sort of discussion over the validity of CC blocking. I remember how that one ended too.

"but dying to a mine in an UNBUILT hive is just utter overkill."

If people could be trusted, you could consider rules like "mines are ok in an unbuilt hive" but the problem is people can't be trusted, they'll spam mines at the last possible minute, then whine about how their skills are being inhibited despite the fact they're trying to grasp an edge by unsporting means.

If I thought I could trust half the people who like spamming mines in a hive NOT to spam mines at the last minute, then I'd be more in favour of it. But the fact is they can't be trusted. It was the exact same thing with CC blocking, it was the exact same thing with ANY rule thats come into being. When we had a whole set of spawncamping rules, players still tried to wheedle their way into "legitimate" spawncamping. Forget the fact that the SPIRIT of the rules were "no spawncamping", noooo, the LETTER of the rules allowed spawncamping if you were very very dishonest and underhand.

I do not doubt for a second that if the mine rule was relaxed, we'd instantly see a slew of people spamming mines just before the hive pops, then saying "Oh I'm not spawncamping with mines, I dropped those a whole 2 seconds before the hive went up". If anyone tried to argue the point, they'd instantly complain about the rule and how unfair the admins are and etc etc all the usual rubbish we've come to expect.

Lot easier to just leave it as is, where there is no ambiguity, where people can make a quick call about whether or not a mine is in the hive, and where certain players will have no opportunity to throw a hissy fit because their attempt to sidestep the rules got caught.
Title: the problem
Post by: mhawk on May 25, 2005, 09:10:07 PM: Two things, f

First can't you just put a plugin on that makes the aliens invulnerable for 2 seconds when they spawn. Then you could allow mines?

Two, Mr. Pie, marines with nades can get the aliens behind rt's easy.
Title: the problem
Post by: Sydney Carton on May 26, 2005, 12:28:54 PM: Quote
Two things, f

First can't you just put a plugin on that makes the aliens invulnerable for 2 seconds when they spawn. Then you could allow mines?

Two, Mr. Pie, marines with nades can get the aliens behind rt's easy.
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Meh, I don't really like solutions that involve invulnerability... aliens in their hive don't really need any more help, and being physically denied access to shoot them just feels cheap.

Better solutions would be (1) a built hive disables mines (either removes, or renders unable to act until it goes down -- does not blow them up, obviously, hehe) within spawn radius or (2) new skulks can't blow up mines for two seconds (different from invulnerability).
Title: the problem
Post by: Moniker on May 26, 2005, 01:46:46 PM: I think the problem isn't so much an imbalance in the game (not that i'm saying it's not imbalanced) as a genuine lack of skill/teamwork on both teams.

Now, I'm not an ubercomm, but I've won a couple games in my time, and the first thing I notice (lately) is a complete and total lack of listening to the comm. Usually it ends up with one or two regs doing what they are told, maybe a nub(any non reg) tagging along, and then everyone else wandering around, dying, asking for meds, dying, taking shotguns, dying, OMG KILLED AN RT, dying... And people justify this "but I'm a ninja!" "ninjas win the game!" and then I get voted out of the chair because no one goes to their waypoints.

Marine shooting skill. I watched a euro clan game a week ago, and boy, skulks run from marines like mad. Why? Because marines have GUNS and can kill a skulk in less then a second. I know it's not reasonable to expect leet shooting skills on pubs, but jesus, I've seen single skulks take out 3-4 marines (I've been the marine and the skulk at different times)

And then just a lack of looking/listening at what's going on around them. You know what I mean by this, I bet.

Aliens have similar probles, with single skulks attacking marine start when it's farmed, wandering around blundering into marines and dying, NOT parasiting... 8 minute hive FTW! And.. uh.. totally random chamber placement. Oh, yes, res whoring for onos and dying to LMG marines.

Now, I wouldn't go so far as to call this a problem, more of a.. status quo (and these are simply my observations/frustrations, I'm probably just as guilty as the next guy) the only 'problem' is that a lack of skill hurts marines more then it hurts aliens.
Title: the problem
Post by: aeroripper on May 26, 2005, 01:58:30 PM: Quote
Now, I wouldn't go so far as to call this a problem, more of a.. status quo (and these are simply my observations/frustrations, I'm probably just as guilty as the next guy) the only 'problem' is that a lack of skill hurts marines more then it hurts aliens.

defintely

Marines HAVE to use teamwork to have a "average" chance of winning the game. There are always rambos if you don't give people constant direction (even then they still run off to chase a skulk from the group and die)

If aliens have good teamwork there is a high chance they will win anyways.
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on May 26, 2005, 04:29:58 PM: Quote
"the server blocks a valid strategy to counter a very powerful alien ability"

Yes, IIRC that was the same sort of discussion over the validity of CC blocking. I remember how that one ended too.

"but dying to a mine in an UNBUILT hive is just utter overkill."

If people could be trusted, you could consider rules like "mines are ok in an unbuilt hive" but the problem is people can't be trusted, they'll spam mines at the last possible minute, then whine about how their skills are being inhibited despite the fact they're trying to grasp an edge by unsporting means.

If I thought I could trust half the people who like spamming mines in a hive NOT to spam mines at the last minute, then I'd be more in favour of it. But the fact is they can't be trusted. It was the exact same thing with CC blocking, it was the exact same thing with ANY rule thats come into being. When we had a whole set of spawncamping rules, players still tried to wheedle their way into "legitimate" spawncamping. Forget the fact that the SPIRIT of the rules were "no spawncamping", noooo, the LETTER of the rules allowed spawncamping if you were very very dishonest and underhand.

I do not doubt for a second that if the mine rule was relaxed, we'd instantly see a slew of people spamming mines just before the hive pops, then saying "Oh I'm not spawncamping with mines, I dropped those a whole 2 seconds before the hive went up". If anyone tried to argue the point, they'd instantly complain about the rule and how unfair the admins are and etc etc all the usual rubbish we've come to expect.

Lot easier to just leave it as is, where there is no ambiguity, where people can make a quick call about whether or not a mine is in the hive, and where certain players will have no opportunity to throw a hissy fit because their attempt to sidestep the rules got caught.
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To be fair marines don't really know when a hive is being finished unless they see it go up. I think staying alive and countering a movement rush are about as good a reason as possible to drop as many mines on the floor as possible. Realisticly, after the hive goes up your spawnrate doubles, what's one or two spawndeaths do mines with a doubled spawn rate at hive two? As long as it's evident the marines wern't just dropping mines for kills and were acctually trying to kill the hive it should be considered valid under the rules.

There are tonnes of other possible exploits I can think of that are just as arguable in gray area. What if a com nodeblocks a egging gorge with the arguement "oh there are marines on the way!" Why not make a rule against dropping nodes?

The point being here, we don't make gameplay distroying rules that protect the "fun" we make fun protecting rules that still work with the gameplay, and no mines in a hive period compleatly distroys the ONLY valid counter to movement rushes.

Spawn camping is totally different from killing skulks that are chosing to movement in. Expecially since 9 times out of 10 the unactive hive is the marine's one and only target, so if it WAS spawning they were worried about it would be more then acceptable for them TO be spawncamping.
Title: the problem
Post by: Goldy on May 26, 2005, 09:00:31 PM: The gray area should not favor the aliens, who are already winning game after game after game. It should tip in the favor of marines, which means mines in an unbuilt hive as part of a hive assault should be allowed. But the suggestion topic I made about this got locked so I don't think that's up for argument. :)
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on May 26, 2005, 09:12:59 PM: Quote
The gray area should not favor the aliens, who are already winning game after game after game. It should tip in the favor of marines, which means mines in an unbuilt hive as part of a hive assault should be allowed. But the suggestion topic I made about this got locked so I don't think that's up for argument. :)
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LB has discovered that he quite likes locking topics :p
Title: the problem
Post by: Absinthe on May 26, 2005, 11:41:20 PM: To my knowledge it's legal to defend a locked down hive with pg/tf/turrets/mines am I not correct? I've seen this done plenty of times, so if it's not I'd like to know.

Now, if aliens decide to MC rush your locked down hive and land on mines, how is that different than an unbuilt hive having mines placed in it? Are the marines at fault for placing the mines in there to defend the hive or are the aliens at fault for being foolish enough to take that risk and MC over?

If you ask me, and I'm probably not alone here, I would without a doubt say the latter. I don't see the difference between that and building a pg during a hive assault and supporting it with mines. Some may says its just a matter of timing though, "whoever got there first is in the right", and I think that's a load of BS. Hive occupancy should not be determined by "who got there first", but more like "who's standing there last".

I really hate this notion that mines are some sort of indestructible device that guarantees kills and changes the tide of the game.. THEY AREN'T! Mines don't have any more lame potential than a marine randomly coming upon a hive an LMG'ing a freshly spawned skulk. I honestly welcome some nub to come running into an aliens main hive for the sole purpose of dropping mines in spawn points. I'd go gorge and spend 1 minute clearing out all his hard work and precious resources.

To be honest, I think the amount of people complaining to allow mines in hives are more than the amount of complains you recieve about the skulks spawning on top of them if it were in place. Meanwhile, back on Earth aliens are going MC and marines are lucky to win even with a stacked team. GG.
Title: the problem
Post by: Goldy on May 27, 2005, 10:01:40 AM: It seems that ninja phase gates are the only way marines are killing hives. If the aliens know they're coming, even with a heavy train.. they tend to die horribly.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on May 27, 2005, 10:14:16 AM: Contary to popular belief you don't HAVE to walk into the building hive to kill it. If you can't push in you can just siege... GASP. Or **** it, just leave the hive, target their RTs, their chambers, place a PG in a strategic spot to allow you to hold RTs and then basically turtle till HA.

If you take down their rts then you stop onos coming, if you shotgun down a few mcs you delay them getting second chambers, if you hold a PG in the right place you can easily hold 3-4 rts around the map and then when you're train is ready just go to the best siege spot and go for it.
Title: the problem
Post by: lithium on May 27, 2005, 11:34:27 AM: mines< a good marine with a shotgun.

Maybe i'm missing the argument, but a lot of the reasons marines lose is because of the strats they use to try and win.

I mean i play marines a lot, and i rarely see anything other than the basic pub strat except from a few decent comms on this server. Wasting 50 res on locking down 1 hive, or not presuring alien res, or trying to siege every hive they come to, and the usual 2 or 3 people that don't know what's going on usually lead to alien victories. That and good fades having 10:1 k:d every game.

The game feels a little more balenced to me when you get an organized marine team toghether, and also a few maps just feel a little unbalenced in the newer versions.
Title: the problem
Post by: Niteowl on May 27, 2005, 01:08:23 PM: Quote
Wasting 50 res on locking down 1 hive, or not presuring alien res, or trying to siege every hive they come to, and the usual 2 or 3 people that don't know what's going on usually lead to alien victories.
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This bugs me to no end.
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on May 27, 2005, 04:13:00 PM: Quote
mines< a good marine with a shotgun.
Not against MC rushers. You can have 4 skulks at your ankles in 2 seconds. Even the leetest of shotguns couldn't handle that short of hacking.
Title: the problem
Post by: Absinthe on May 27, 2005, 04:28:37 PM: Of course a good marine with a shotgun is more valuable than a pack of mines, but that isn’t the issue here. Uberleetproaim with a shotgun isn’t going to be of much use if you can’t phase through a pg in one piece because 2-3 skulks are chewing it down. Put a shotgun in the hands of a good majority of solo defending marine players on this server, and you’ll find you’re out 10 res.

Do you know why the marine tactics on this server seem rather mundane, lame, and with little risk involved? Most of the time it’s because that’s all you’ll ever get away with. I can give you more examples than you’d want to read, but let’s start with the most important ones.

Unlike a scrim/pug/match, you don’t always get the most competent players doing your bidding. Try going comm. on this server sometime and you’ll see exactly what I’m talking about. If you’re damn lucky you will get 4-5 competent (have a brain and listen) players on your team, if you’re extremely lucky 2-3 of them will have enough aim to handle their own in solo situations and get objectives accomplished. You know these marines cuz they outscore the commander early game a lot of the time. The rest of the time you’ll drop a res node and have to recycle it 2 seconds later because some people think they’re invincible when holding the use key.

Maybe it isn’t feasible to lock down hives in a “real” game, but on this server it’s one of your only (if not THE only) option(s) to winning. Keep in mind we’re talking about LM here, am I the only one who finds games are more “even” when marines have 2 hives locked with low weapon upgrades, as opposed to high upgrades / guns vs. hive 2 fades? Personally when I’m alien I find it very easy to focus/celerity fade against marines on this server even when they have crazy upgrades (obviously not full heavy trains). It’s much harder for the few higher lifeform players to clear out an already lamed up hive lockdown, especially the longer the game progresses when marine upgrades start becoming significantly more advantageous.

So what are your options?

- Request that a whole team goes to one hive, locks it down. Regroup, go to second hive, and lock it down also. This is not very difficult to pull off because skulks avoid large packs of marines, and even the clueless members of your team can typically “follow the leader”.

- Trust your team to split up and do various tasks: 1. Base builder, 2. ‘Pressure team’ aggressively pushing on alien nodes, 3. RT capper. Much like clans do.

The people who complain about the hive lockdowns are usually the people who can handle their own, it’s never the nubs – they love lockdowns because it makes their life less stressful. At the same time, the people who usually complain never comm. on pub servers, or if they do expect their marines to play like exigent (CAL-Delta champions) and blame them when they die.

You wouldn’t need to siege in most cases if you could rush a hive with only a pg, plant mines down and get set up, spawn camp the entire alien team until their cue is jammed, then destroy the hive when its relatively safe; but as we all know that’s illegal. To my knowledge that’s the only way I’ve ever seen a marine team in a CAL match win a game before the 7 minute mark. That is also of course assuming your team has aim capable of pulling that off.
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on May 27, 2005, 08:15:11 PM: I hate to break it to ya kids, but the grey area should ALWAYS favour the spirit of the rules.

The spirit of the rules are NO SPAWNCAMPING.

Therefore, any grey areas will ALWAYS favour NO SPAWNCAMPING.

Its rather unfortunate that IN THIS CASE it happens to favour aliens, but such is life.

Nodeblocks are a pain in the arse but are fairly infrequent, and certainly not as game damaging as spamming the spawn points with mines and shotgun wielding marines on spawncamp detail.
Title: the problem
Post by: Iconoclast on May 28, 2005, 12:29:27 AM: Quote
mines< a good marine with a shotgun.
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I'd rather plop down an hmg or gl to kill the aliens that mc over.
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on May 28, 2005, 01:41:11 AM: Quote
I hate to break it to ya kids, but the grey area should ALWAYS favour the spirit of the rules.

The spirit of the rules are NO SPAWNCAMPING.

Therefore, any grey areas will ALWAYS favour NO SPAWNCAMPING.

Its rather unfortunate that IN THIS CASE it happens to favour aliens, but such is life.

Nodeblocks are a pain in the arse but are fairly infrequent, and certainly not as game damaging as spamming the spawn points with mines and shotgun wielding marines on spawncamp detail.
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No spawn camping IS the rule. The spirt of that rule is to protect the fun of the game. Fun > rules.

Granted things have to be conceded some times for a good rule to work. I'm arguing that the gains are not worth the costs. I think the countering of MC rushes is large enough a problem to consider the occational administrative trouble of dealing with a player who pushes the letter of the law just because they can. Dissagree with me fine, for all I know you have the greater experiance standpoint on the matter, as I have never been an admin and never had to deal with such problems. But I don't apreciate you attempting to end with circular logic stating that the rules justify themselfs simply by existing.

When Mhawk was node blocking we didn't lose a single game. This is definitely partially do to players who responded with innapropriate counters to the strat (running off elsewhere) but a good node block goes a LONG way, expecially against pub teams who don't know the counters. For future referance in case you encounter this anywhere, just have a skulk bite down the node. Unbuilt nodes take half as long to take down as built nodes, and can be bitten to death in less then one recycling cycle.
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on May 28, 2005, 07:16:07 PM: That would be something for the admin team to comment on.

However, from purely LM experience, when the rules had been clarified and defined, people used the definitions as excuse for llama behaviour. "The rules didnt say that" or "The rules said not in the hive, and I wasnt in the hive, I was just outside looking in" or any one of a hundred variations on the above.

Hence, I imagine, why we went back to the tried and tested NO SPAWNCAMPING method. That way noone can really fiddle the system, and people behave theirselves a bit more.

MC rapid response is a problem, but one I think that the changing of FF should help.

Ultimately tho you have to consider that, from the sounds of it, MC are going to eventually allow transport anywhere, so best to stick with the current method because ultimately its going to end up the official one. If MCs were NOT going to allow you to transport to the building hive, then I would support a FF switch. If spawn positions were really truly random I would also support a "mines are ok" campaign. But the game isnt going to be that way, so everyone is going to have to learn to take hives without clogging them with autospawncampers.
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on May 29, 2005, 02:09:20 AM: Quote
That would be something for the admin team to comment on.

However, from purely LM experience, when the rules had been clarified and defined, people used the definitions as excuse for llama behaviour. "The rules didnt say that" or "The rules said not in the hive, and I wasnt in the hive, I was just outside looking in" or any one of a hundred variations on the above.

Hence, I imagine, why we went back to the tried and tested NO SPAWNCAMPING method. That way noone can really fiddle the system, and people behave theirselves a bit more.

MC rapid response is a problem, but one I think that the changing of FF should help.

Ultimately tho you have to consider that, from the sounds of it, MC are going to eventually allow transport anywhere, so best to stick with the current method because ultimately its going to end up the official one. If MCs were NOT going to allow you to transport to the building hive, then I would support a FF switch. If spawn positions were really truly random I would also support a "mines are ok" campaign. But the game isnt going to be that way, so everyone is going to have to learn to take hives without clogging them with autospawncampers.
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As already noted, Building hives will be warpable too in 3.1 weather or not the server is running FF.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on May 29, 2005, 04:27:29 AM: Where did that change come from? Changelog released or something?
Title: the problem
Post by: SwiftSpear on May 29, 2005, 04:58:13 AM: Quote
Where did that change come from? Changelog released or something?
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Zunni stated it on the LM forums somewhere...
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on May 29, 2005, 05:34:28 AM: yes but it wasn't confirmed, just looked that way.
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on May 29, 2005, 06:39:55 PM: Quote
As already noted, Building hives will be warpable too in 3.1 weather or not the server is running FF.

Exactly my point. People are going to have to cope with not being able to use mines, or somehow suddenly become trustworthy enough to warrant support for a "no mines in BUILT hives" policy.

It may not be "confirmed" but if thats the way things are looking, then we should be using it as the basis for progress.
Title: the problem
Post by: mhawk on May 29, 2005, 07:42:31 PM: it still doesn't make sense why you just dont add the invulnerable plug in like many other servers, mainly because your rule goes beyond no mines, but also includes no spawn killing. This would solve both problems nearly instantly, while still offering decent counter to mc rushes.
Title: the problem
Post by: RangerAlpha on May 29, 2005, 07:53:38 PM: The general consensus(spelled so incorrectly) is that the marines are slow in early game, cuz they have to build base, hump armory cuz they need infinity bullets... etc... Obviously these problems are what need to be attacked. If marines blast the gorge to bits before he drops the hive because they managed to get a squad there 5 seconds earlier, well, theres is no hive, hence no mc ownage shall occur. So, how to go about doing this. My thinking was that the first ip could build instantly, or something. I only foresee one problem with this, being relocates are slightly faster, but hey, i like relocates. And anyways, its not like the comm chair doesnt take 45 years to build, you should get a reward. For all i care, you could even offset it by making comm chair take LONGER to build, i mean. i really want the marines to move out faster, and nothing else. However, this probably is harder to code than the next solution, which is generally better.

We could go the other way and just give the marines an ip, i mean, the aliens get a spawn point, the marines should too. This would be a significant advantage even if the marines were docked 20 res because of the free building. This change, would fix the "marines are too slow" problem admirably, not really affect balance in any way except "marines move out faster" which we like, because right now, aliens get this 30-45 second grace period where marines really arent doing anything but running around in base. Now, early game will involve both marines and aliens, instead of just aliens building stuff and marines sitting there. I still like my decrease rt hp thing, because those darned rts really need to die better.[/RangarSpamFTW!]

Granted, this free ip should be in a generally decent spot, which, could cause some nasty "Crappy ip placement ftl" spam, but, whatever, the complainers will always complain about something.

[randomrant]One thing i always hated was that for every building, except hives, some sort of work needs to occur to build it, if you want it to build in a reasonable period of time, hives are just drop n leave, which i dislike. but, i thats not really important. [/randomrant]
Title: the problem
Post by: mhawk on May 29, 2005, 08:58:22 PM: I think marines starting with full ammo at start of round, would do just about the same thing as you want, but would work much better. Then as you spawn in, you start with barely any ammo. This would make marines dominate the early game, but back to topic of mines. Invuln Plugin.
Title: the problem
Post by: RangerAlpha on May 29, 2005, 09:33:27 PM: Quote
I think marines starting with full ammo at start of round, would do just about the same thing as you want, but would work much better. Then as you spawn in, you start with barely any ammo. This would make marines dominate the early game, but back to topic of mines. Invuln Plugin.
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I thought about that idea too, but thats a fairly significant marine boost. Actually not a bad idea though, and probably easier to do/not get whined about. Anything that makes mines better, i want, cuz i love mines. Mines mines mines.

Oh, only legal invuln plugin value is .5 seconds. trust me, any more and you can kill a marine while invul, which pisses them off.
Title: the problem
Post by: EvilLinkz on June 01, 2005, 08:08:22 AM: .5 seconds invul works for me, I've been on servers with 1.0 seconds and of course the marines are facing the wrath of an invincible skulk.

Also with marines instant building IPs? Maybe NS should balance itself out and have a comm chair and IP ready-built, like the aliens have a ready built Hive+Spawn.
Title: the problem
Post by: Zombies and Robots on June 01, 2005, 04:58:35 PM: Quote
I hate to break it to ya kids, but the grey area should ALWAYS favour the spirit of the rules.

The spirit of the rules are NO SPAWNCAMPING.

Therefore, any grey areas will ALWAYS favour NO SPAWNCAMPING.

Its rather unfortunate that IN THIS CASE it happens to favour aliens, but such is life.

Nodeblocks are a pain in the arse but are fairly infrequent, and certainly not as game damaging as spamming the spawn points with mines and shotgun wielding marines on spawncamp detail.
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This rule actualy makes the game a bit unbalenced. What if I am in an alien hive wating for a phase gate? Should I just let the aliens spawn and eat me?

I don't agree with the "I'll go into the hive and rack up kills" spawn camping on public servers, though. I do think that in situations like the one I stated above should be treated differently than normal spawncamping.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on June 05, 2005, 09:11:33 AM: I was temp banned for "spawn camping." Whilst my team assualted the building in cargo, i went to the active hive in pipeline. See there are two ways to handle MC'ing aliens, you control the hive room with mines and just destroy the aliens as they come in which can be somewhat problematic. Or, you stop them MC'ing. A single bullet into the hive stops aliens defending cargo, the unlucky skulks who happened to spawn near me or try and rush me from the other side of pipeline died.

Oh and i killed their hive RT. We won. IMO that's not lame or whatever you want to call it, that's good thinking and efficient playing.
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on June 05, 2005, 10:14:56 AM: Of course by the same token, me going to your house and putting a few shotgun rounds into you and/or your PC is a brilliant piece of logical reasoning and a master stroke in terms of countering your playing ability.

Mind you, you probably won't be saying that.

In much the same way, CC blocking and spawncamping might be "brilliant" strategies, but they're not really all that fun to be on the receiving end of, and its largely against the spirit of the game. Come in and shoot the hive and its defenders by all means, but dont camp for kills just to pass time waiting for 6 sieges to be built and covered by an elec tfac.

Now, the example of hitting the second hive is perfectly fine, naturally of course assuming the honourable intention of attacking the hive, as opposed to wiping out spawning aliens. Its a fine line, but there we have it. TBH I'd rather have the current method that relies on PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY as opposed to resorting to invulnerable spawn, which will do a fine job of making hives even harder to take.

The example of waiting for a phase gate... depends. If you're rushing into the hive then yelling like a nub for a PG, then camp all round you, then you're spawncamping. If the comm sent you there, then you're on a mission that WILL involve an attempt to drop a PG. Further, should the comm drop a PG, you WILL be trying to build it, and its tricky to build a PG and mow down skulks at the same time. If the comm meds you enough, and you're a good shot, then the PG will go up and all going well 5 more marines will bale in with SGs and it'll be hiveburgers for everyone.

So, in a nutshell, there on official business is good, there because you're going to whine for stuff while camping aliens is BAD.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on June 05, 2005, 12:09:23 PM: olol and after you shoot my PC do you make more retarded retorts or are you done?
Title: the problem
Post by: SlickWill on June 05, 2005, 01:39:16 PM: I nominate Necrosis for the most prolific poster with the longest and most pointless and most worthless threads and thank God he's not on my debate team award. (If I was on debate team.)

Edit: I mean that in the nicest most unmean way.
Title: the problem
Post by: 2_of_8 on June 05, 2005, 01:53:59 PM: Spawn invulnerability is a horrible, horrible plugin. It makes assaulting hives pretty much impossible, forcing a siege... bad.
Title: the problem
Post by: aeroripper on June 05, 2005, 02:06:37 PM: i hate that invul plugin also... then the aliens always say the marine team is n00b when there were only a few skulks in the hive in a shotty rush.
Title: the problem
Post by: Necrosis on June 05, 2005, 04:55:38 PM: Invul plugin only exacerbates the problem, thats why I hope it is never implemented in such a way that aliens can abuse invul to allow them to sweep a hive clean.

It's just one of those things that has to rely on good player sportsmanship. Like bodycamping in AvP2. You can't outright halt it, so you make a server rule and hope that your regulars are HONEST ENOUGH not to break it.

I think Nec shooting my PC is retarded, stop shooting my PC now. Retarded. Doesn't. Mean. ****. PCcamping owns. Its good thinking and efficient playing. All the top players break up their opponents PCs, etc etc blah blah tired and rather silly standard competitive argument, narf.

Ah, the hilarity.

Slick, you may want to PM me with a clarification of what you just said, thanks.
Title: the problem
Post by: Mr.Ben on June 06, 2005, 08:20:30 AM: Yeah, you really won this arguement with your PC camping, your witty replys really did validate your opinion.

Dick.
Title: the problem
Post by: Niteowl on June 06, 2005, 08:23:24 AM: Let's try and keep it civil people.