Author Topic: the problem  (Read 40904 times)

April 25, 2005, 02:43:24 PM
Reply #40

tankefugl (in a tent)

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*snip*

^Zunni^ said it.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 02:46:06 PM by tankefugl (in a tent) »

April 25, 2005, 02:53:48 PM
Reply #41

Dead_Meat

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well i was thinking if the res was a sever side variable that could be server specific
then the lm could maybe try diff start res to give the rines a lil jumpstart
and not necciarily 150 maybe 120 just enough to give 1 more upgrade or something

with 8 vrs 8 aliens start with 200 ress and rines are 100
and aliens dont have to spend as much to upgrade

it was just a thought

April 25, 2005, 03:05:04 PM
Reply #42

2_of_8

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well i was thinking if the res was a sever side variable that could be server specific
then the lm could maybe try diff start res to give the rines a lil jumpstart
and not necciarily 150 maybe 120 just enough to give 1 more upgrade or something

with 8 vrs 8 aliens start with 200 ress and rines are 100
and aliens dont have to spend as much to upgrade

it was just a thought
[snapback]47017[/snapback]
Comparing res costs for Aliens/Marines really doesn't work, as their economies work quite differently...
More people on aliens = less res per person (fades, lerks)
More people on marines = similar res per person (armour, weapon upgrades)
Where lipstick is concerned, the important thing is not color, but to accept God's final word on where your lips end. - Jerry Seinfeld

April 25, 2005, 04:06:52 PM
Reply #43

Dead_Meat

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yeah but aliens can have 4 res nodes and chambers going up in the first min
while 2 of 8 horz for lerk

rines only get ip=20, armory-10, 2 res nodes 30, arms lab, and armor 1 =20

so after 1 min aliens have 5 nodes pumpin and a lerk on crank while rines have 2 nodes so aliens start with more and can get res faster then of course those pesky aliens start eatin rine nodes





note: from my observation on lm most alien teams actually have 3 nodes at 1min and the 4th by 2 as theres always a slow poke

the rines usally get 2-3 up but then once the gorges that put nodes up go back to skulk rine nodes start going down


April 25, 2005, 04:15:20 PM
Reply #44

Malevolent

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Marines can cap nodes very fast (faster than aliens actually). If you get 4 or 5 people to go out right away, you'll have 3 or 4 RTs in no time because of power building. At this point, there won't be a huge influx of skulks because they are gorging, so you'll only run into a couple. Even if one group of marines dies, there will be another one going the opposite way. That is why the electrification strat works so good if you act fast and get down to business.

EDIT: Spelling.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 08:38:06 PM by Malevolent »
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April 25, 2005, 05:53:02 PM
Reply #45

Niteowl

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Who is this zunni guy!?!? Perhaps CAPTAIN CANADA CAN HELP!!!!
"I don't have to know an answer, I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me."
-Richard Feynman

April 25, 2005, 06:34:07 PM
Reply #46

Necrosis

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I can cap nodes ok.

I can tech up ok.

It goes pearshaped when I try to hit a hive.. and that was because I used a PG.


TBH, if you're dropping A1 early (and its my first game goal) then you just rush for jps and go for death from above. JPs and shotties decide virtually every marine game on LM. Even when you're losing to 2-3 hive aliens, you can shotty down a hive and have res left over to try again. Its insane.

Its also pretty sad that PGs/sieges/HA are virtually obsolete. Don't get me wrong, I hated the rinse repeat 2.0 days of ninja PG, siege farm, HA walk into hive, but at the same time a JP Shotty rush isn't much better.

Game as it stands on LM is just too limited in terms of strategy.
Necrosis killed Holy_Devil with pistol
Holy_Devil: cheater

April 25, 2005, 07:54:16 PM
Reply #47

^Zunni^

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Who is this zunni guy!?!? Perhaps CAPTAIN CANADA CAN HELP!!!!
[snapback]47038[/snapback]

You bastard.. That's it I'm taking away your mention in my new interview AND all the meeces!!!!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 07:54:28 PM by ^Zunni^ »

^Zunni^ (Lead, Intelligent Design Team)

April 25, 2005, 08:25:12 PM
Reply #48

holy_devil

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appreciate the input, zunni. the pr for the last patch was nice, at least we got to hear some things. any kind of input is nice, just tell us as you add it =] always nice to have those little annoying things fixed to look forward to, then you can say "well thats annoying, but at least its gone next patch." etc =]

also, the server side only patches are nice. good show for pr imo, shows you're keeping up with the issues at the very least, maybe you're more ahead than we know =P

i'd still be curious to see armor3 rushes in clan matches, if anyone has a demo to point me towards where it was used during 3.02 i'd be curious to see it.

April 25, 2005, 08:34:51 PM
Reply #49

devicenull

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It might be nice if servers could set their own balance.  Give us a bunch of cvars, say marine_start_res, with a default value.  Then, it would be quite easy to adjust this to achieve a balanced server.  Possibly, take the values from all the servers (have it update similarly to the icons), and find averages.  This *should* give you a balanced game.  It should also be possibly to auto-generate a new config file, once a week or so.

It would be pretty easy to just grab a new config file, and try it on the server for awhile.  Anything that seemed like it wasn't balanced could be tweaked.

I think involving all the servers is the best way to achieve balance.  Confining it to one or two test servers is not the way to go.

Sure, you may have people abusing this one way or another.. but not for long.  How many people will play on a server where all the marine structures are free? Would you want to be the aliens there?

The only problem I could see is in clan play.  That's easily solved by having the server retrieve default values, and not allow them to be changed when mp_tournamentmode is enabled.  I'm not sure how difficult this would be to implement, but I think it would effect the game for the better.


April 25, 2005, 09:05:01 PM
Reply #50

Necrosis

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Waaah Zunni escaped I&S, APOCALYPSE!

Patch PR is an absolute....... female dog.

On one hand, some people can react normally to "we changed X and Y because our reasoning was Z" and accept it and drive on.

Sadly its the percentage who go "OGMWTFBBQ lame change ololol observe my flawed logic saying u r teh wrongzorz" which knacker the whole thing.

PG and structure costs were very obviously a nod to complaints about the lunch portal and an enhanced aliens earlygame (hello SC).


I don't even mind so much about the missboxes, its just the fact that the marine game is cookie cutter. Maybe that IS an LM only issue, so fair enough, but even without FF you've still got A1 being effectively mandatory for 2/3 of games.

I say 2/3 because, as I stated elsewhere, if you are of equal or lesser skill to the aliens, then A1 will give you enough edge to either equal or outclass them. W1 is pretty pointless unless you are 100% certain of outskilling the aliens. This doesnt change even if you take into account chambers, because armour is superior to MC/SC, and evens out DC. W1 is pretty foolhardy versus MC/SC (unless you're outskilling your opponents, natch).


Server specific variables are interesting, I mean thats how most servers tweak their game. Released games have all sorts of scoring and weapon variables that people can use. AvP2 allowed you to change the points won from killing each class of player. You had servers that gave few points for killing huggers/bursters, and gave more for killing drones, encouraging players to make big kills as opposed to bodycamping.

In NS, you could translate this as allowing different RFK scoring for certain lifeforms/upgrades. Thats one example. Another would be custom costs for upgrades/etc. While this would lead to an initially chaotic pub circuit, it would soon balance out.. then you would only need serverspy or similar in order to see how the players are voting with their feet.

It also means you could truly have some sort of competitive setup versus a public setup. Again, thats how it works for other released games. There's the defaults, competitive play tweaks, and public server tweaks. NS is a strange beast because there's not an awful lot to be tweaked on the server end, afaik.

Yes, you would get some silly servers, like the AvP2 ones with lifecycle on, one kill = queen, 5 exosuits, and tracking weapons only...... but for each of those, there would be many more servers where admins had made only minor tweaks.

Hm, maybe I should have put that in I&S.


Anyhow, I agree with Nully, more tweak options would be fun.
Necrosis killed Holy_Devil with pistol
Holy_Devil: cheater

April 26, 2005, 10:24:21 AM
Reply #51

rad4Christ

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Which leads nicely in Rad's post...

A) if you have questions, ask.. Someone wanted to know about HLTV in 3.1 on the NS forums (http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92378) and while I can't say for 100% certain, it's clear we are aware of the issues and are deciding where along the fix time-line they fit.

B) Often features/balance tweaks look completely different when they are designed vs. when they are released (cloaking went through at least 10 permutations), and we've made the decision not to get people's hopes up only to have them dashed (you all saw what happened when we were unable to keep the fixed Hitboxes in, mass confusion where people didn't understand/wouldn't understand). So it's a decision we've made to not release the details of what's being included until things are more finalized..

Zunni, to A), I see plenty of other people ask. I read the responses, but we really need a better way, a news post, something than having to troll the forums day in and day out. To B ), I completely understand that exact changelogs are not possible. But how hard is it to place a news item on NS.com stating "We understand that Sensory Chambers need a boost and are currently working on a solution". That IS better than nothing. I was partially privied to the hitbox bugs as a consti. I admired what was done, but I also saw how they needed to be fixed. And I understand the public changelog with hitbox change already in it, then having ot remove the feature caused some confusion. But if you're working on the hitbox bug, how hard is it to say "We are currently on track for 3.1. Some changes include possible marine upgrade cost reductions, lifeform costs, and continued work on hitboxes. We may not be able to roll out all these features in the next patch, but progress is being made in each area. Our goal is to help correct the game imbalance aliens have over marines at second hive."

I made the changes up, but the point is you made two very big points. One, the dev team agrees alien early-mid game is too powerful (if that's the case), and two you see a sneak peek of what is being tested (not implemented) to help. I also know too much info on the PT process and you run into too many rampant speculations, but TBH, official silence gets annoying.

Quote
But I'm certainly not opposed to saying this release (3.1) will have some new movement techniques, some fixes to long time pains, some usability fixes and some other things as well.  But also understand we are in the middle of writing this code, so what is on our scope list may change based on time/issues that appear etc..

See, this is exactly something I'd love to hear. I'm glad you are willing to come to the LM community to make this post, and especially talk to my specific points, but why isn't this in a place where everyone can have the benefit? Get what I'm saying? A monthly/weekly/biweekly update on 3.1 would be great. I said somehting about a Developer's Journal on NS, not because I want to know the inner workings of how Tanke chased down a minor bug for three days, but just what area of NS was being developed, or what balance changes were being made (not specifics, but somehting like "we're working on giving early game marine teams the ability to respond to alien upgrades faster". It's not much, and shouldn't take but a few minutes a week to summarize the development status. IT could even be "We knocked out 3 bugs this week from our list, and the PT's are steadily bringing us info on what needs to be tweaked. All in all progress is good" or "We ran into a nasty problem this week with one of our builds. PT's are trying to pin it down, but this bug has delayed our progress a little. We hope to have things ironed out for our next PT build"...
tim
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April 26, 2005, 11:01:55 AM
Reply #52

Niteowl

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Quote
Who is this zunni guy!?!? Perhaps CAPTAIN CANADA CAN HELP!!!!
[snapback]47038[/snapback]

You bastard.. That's it I'm taking away your mention in my new interview AND all the meeces!!!!
[snapback]47054[/snapback]
This post was MUCH funnier when you had your Captain Canada avatar up!

And yes, what rad said! More info for the fanbois! If it's not too much hassle! Which it might be!
"I don't have to know an answer, I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me."
-Richard Feynman

April 26, 2005, 01:48:31 PM
Reply #53

devicenull

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Yes, you would get some silly servers, like the AvP2 ones with lifecycle on, one kill = queen, 5 exosuits, and tracking weapons only...... but for each of those, there would be many more servers where admins had made only minor tweaks.

Hm, maybe I should have put that in I&S.


Anyhow, I agree with Nully, more tweak options would be fun.
[snapback]47057[/snapback]

I did, go reply with what you did here.. http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....=ST&f=5&t=92487

April 26, 2005, 05:45:12 PM
Reply #54

Necrosis

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Beat me to the punch. Good job, Batman.
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Holy_Devil: cheater

May 14, 2005, 07:26:01 PM
Reply #55

RangerAlpha

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Strange would-get-me-shot-on-I&S-idea.  Make meta give less/no energy, preferably no.  Increases fade turnaround time (meaning more than 2 seconds to be at full energy/hp again),  Makes them actually need energy management, like all other aliens (except pre-leap skulks), makes field mcs more needed, because they are sorely lacking a field use for non-gorges, which i believe they should have, cuz it may make them more prevalent.
My hopes: lets fades keep being a killing machine, but they dont have obscene turnaround times, hence, shooting a fade may actually DO something.

I was going to suggest modular GL reloading options, but i realized the coding issues and pre-emptively shot myself down.

That, or make rts(both sides) have 4000 hp, so its worth shooting them as opposed to a hive, because as of now 1 hive = 2.1 res nodes of killing required, and any marine would rather kill a hive than two res nodes.  Marines really can't save their rts anyhow, so this WOULD nerf marines, just not as much.  OR not, this change is basically impossible for me to imagine the implications, which is why i want it.  Anything could happen!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 07:30:25 PM by RangerAlpha »

May 16, 2005, 05:44:22 AM
Reply #56

SwiftSpear

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Strange would-get-me-shot-on-I&S-idea.  Make meta give less/no energy, preferably no.  Increases fade turnaround time (meaning more than 2 seconds to be at full energy/hp again),  Makes them actually need energy management, like all other aliens (except pre-leap skulks), makes field mcs more needed, because they are sorely lacking a field use for non-gorges, which i believe they should have, cuz it may make them more prevalent.
My hopes: lets fades keep being a killing machine, but they dont have obscene turnaround times, hence, shooting a fade may actually DO something.

I was going to suggest modular GL reloading options, but i realized the coding issues and pre-emptively shot myself down.

That, or make rts(both sides) have 4000 hp, so its worth shooting them as opposed to a hive, because as of now 1 hive = 2.1 res nodes of killing required, and any marine would rather kill a hive than two res nodes.  Marines really can't save their rts anyhow, so this WOULD nerf marines, just not as much.  OR not, this change is basically impossible for me to imagine the implications, which is why i want it.  Anything could happen!
[snapback]48567[/snapback]
Meta is useless enough as it is.  Without the adren boost it really doen't provide enough health to be worth it most of the time.

One explorable option is to make it require a larger mimimum adreniline.  That way fades wanting to use meta will have to keep an eye on their energy moreso then normal.
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May 16, 2005, 08:08:05 AM
Reply #57

Goldy

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I feel like I already have to worry a lot about my energy, especially after that one patch where there was no more endless blink.
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May 16, 2005, 08:24:56 AM
Reply #58

Mr.Ben

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May 17, 2005, 03:54:34 AM
Reply #59

Nooblet

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Someone needs to code a new admin cvar: admin_hiveff 0|1

Turns off|on FF on hive. Aliens can't movement over to hive asap anymore and will have to lock them down. If aliens cant movement over anymore then they will need to drop OCs and WoLs this will deter most ninjas, hence lowering the always ninja aspect of the game. THE main thing is and will always be about skill balance. As right now the aliens need less skill then marines. As it has be said befor marines NEED a good comm (thats what this game was made around so thats a nobrainer) but also the marines HAVE TO HAVE A TEAM THAT DAMN FOLLOW ORDERS AND DAMN WELL SHOOT SOMETHING! aliens just need to camp somewhere and fall on a marine. But yes aliens also need the skill to push marines back its just this issue is that the skill balance leans more towards the aliens.
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