Author Topic: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS  (Read 18719 times)

December 05, 2004, 12:07:01 PM
Reply #80

Quaunaut

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As said, spawncamping can be countered easily, and would help make our players better. While I think llama spawncamping is terrible, legitimate spawncamping in the hopes of building or taking things down I think should be just fine. But at the same time, it seems that many of the admins that DON'T PLAY NS are making these descisions.

...I find that just a tad ironic, myself.

December 05, 2004, 02:28:59 PM
Reply #81

That Annoying Kid

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^^

this thread is like the damn UN, all talk and little to no action.


We either need to break out the umbra spawn, break out the aggressive no shooting inside an active hive or biting an active IP, or get over ourselves.

LB did remove combat from the map cycle, hence we can only get it if an admin votes for it, yes he plays little NS, yes he did make the call

but wait, he pays for the server so I guess we have no choice but to hold or toungues for find somewhere else to play

SPAWNCAMPING has become this big monster, spawncamping used to be shooting someone as they spawn, not running in and out of a hive, not waiting while someone builds something

spawcamping used to be
IF YOU SPAWN, AND YOU GET SHOT WHILE YOU FALL [cause you spawn a litte bit above the ground], YOUR BEING SPAWNCAMED, other than that TLM has taken the definition of spawncamping and ran with it like they are running from the police.

Also since when did this community reform thread become soley about spawncamping?

Can we split the spawncamping discussion into a seperate thread, and then continue discussing other things that were brought up by archi's conversations
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December 05, 2004, 02:46:39 PM
Reply #82

a civilian

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but wait, he pays for the server so I guess we have no choice but to hold or toungues for find somewhere else to play
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I thought the point of this thread was to find out what people don't like about the server.  Holding our tongues doesn't accomplish anything.

December 05, 2004, 03:08:10 PM
Reply #83

Guspaz

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Exactly. I think I was pretty frank in my post what I thought needed to be changed.

Sorry about the misconception that CO was removed entirely; it was in the IRC topic for a bit so I assumed it was still true. However it IS out of the mapcycle entirely, so only admins can change it.

My points on the voting stand; if people were voting for the same maps repeatedly that means they WANT to play that map. Votes are hard enough to get to suceed, most of the players on the server must vote yes for it. Not voting is effectively a vote for no. So if most players do NOT want to play that same map over and over, then they won't. So the only reason I can come up with is that the admins got tired of those maps, and forced their personal preference onto the community. And yes, we used to be able to vote in Combat. Why do you think the server was 24/7 combat for a good time after the release? Because we kept voting in combat maps.

December 05, 2004, 06:17:15 PM
Reply #84

Keyser59

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Seemingly because that's one of the major issues. I can't see why, a good player is noticeably better when mp_bs is on, and there are plently of servers without BS.

It's not because it makes that one player better, but it makes many of the other players worse.

For instance, I can bunnyhop with +3jump script or mousewheel, favoring the +3jump script because it was more comfortable. Now, with bs_1, many people who only used +3jump scripts can't bhop at all, while I still can with mousewheel. This leaves me at a considerable advantage. I don't really consider either more unfair than the other, since everyone always has access to both (actually, 100% of people can use scripts, while probably slightly less don't have mouse wheels for one reason or another).

Same thing with a pistol script, which I find interfering and unnecessary. I tried a 2 fire script (shoots once on mouse press, second on release) and I end up shooting when I don't want to, and I like to keep the pistol manual because I can fire more accurately and almost hit the cap if the opportunity arises. I think pistol scripts are so cumbersome that they are really not worth learning, and ultimately you'll be benefited more than firing the pistol manually.

I guess personally blockscripts benefit me, but I still think they spread disinformation and rumours that hurt the community in general. Like someone said, the only reason to legitametly block scripts is to get rid of the scripts who exploit engine bugs, like the wiggle-walking scripts or infi-leap scripts (Bunnyhopping is a feature and not an engine bug now by the way).

Considering +3jumps and pistol scripts are the only scripts really being affected, I don't really see a reason to broaden the discussion to other scripts. Unless somebody else wants to bring one up :)

December 05, 2004, 08:18:01 PM
Reply #85

Dubbilex

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Well put, Keyser :)

I guess most who are against scripts would say that the players should be required to bhop manually (rather than skipping the fundamentals and getting a 3-jump script to aid with timing that they normally could not master).  I realize that you, keyser, can bunnyhop with or without a script; this is not the case with the majority of others.  In this way, you are a stronger player than they are because you posess the fundamental skills of the game and as such, truly use the scripts for convenience (for without them you are just at strong).

However there are other players who download 3-jump scripts because they are unable to bunnyhop "cleanly," if you will.  Realize this: using a 3-jump script I am able to bunnyhop arguably well but without one can barely even gain speed.  I am an example of a player who would be using a script to compensate for my lack of coordination and, arguably, game skill.  I am against 'exploiting' scripts in such a way, and as a result use no scripts.

Obviously there is no way to separate these two types of player from each other, so this is a viciously unceasing argument.  THERE IS NO ANSWER.

December 06, 2004, 08:47:38 AM
Reply #86

Crispy

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Seeing as in the upcoming version of NS sieges will no longer do damage to players, not only will Marines have to deal without the additional blast damage of a siege cannon [Ed - as in on players when assaulting a Hive] but they'll have a tougher time holding that all-important siege location.

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This annoys me on how many people don't understand what that darned annoucement said. >_<
In b5 sieges do 165 blast damage. This means 165 damage to all players and double that for structures, 330.
In b6 sieges do 330 non-blast damage only to structures. The only change here is they don't hurt players, they still do the same damage to strutures >_<
What? Where exactly did I say or imply that? Oh right nowhere. OK  <_<

To clarify my point I was saying that Marines won't have the benefit of the Sieges virtually insta-killing Skulks who respawn and higher lifeforms who retreat to the Hive to heal up. Thanks for 'correcting' me though.

As for the -Craft example, I actually knew it was flawed befor I put it in and wanted to see how quickly someone jumped on it (pretty quickly eh?). What I will do is repeat and elaborate on what I said earlier. NS gives us guns, claws and two teams fighting for their very existance (as described in the backstory) and we're supposed to play fair. Yes, I do understand that it's not nice to waste people's time but I think spawncamping's fine as long as you're doing it to gain some advantage (be it time, resources, even morale). In my eyes spawncamping is only wrong if it's used for humiliation tactics. I like the way the server tries to split the better players between the teams, it's a really good measure that benefits every player. What doesn't benefit every player is asking the better or more experienced players to restrict their more 'agressive' tactics to suit a more nub style of play (just an opinion, possibly not shared by many).

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Second, if someone spawncamps you in an rts, would you not say you find it mildly annoying that he's in the position to end the game but has instead decided to whittle your peon units while he builds a Tactical Fusion Cube/Dreadnought Army/Battlecruiser fleet in order to end the game in a humiliation win?
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Imagine in one of the -Craft games you have found someones outpost [Ed - as in one of their outposts, not their main base] and you start attacking

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this thread is like the damn UN, all talk and little to no action.
Maybe because this thread is for non-admins and because an in-depth discussion is usually the best way to find a solution?
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Also since when did this community reform thread become soley about spawncamping?
Page 4, when Kodiac said this:
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[...]They worked as a group of individuals, and that leads to spawncamping[...]
also three posts previous to that Sydney Carton mentioned it indirectly. It is relevant because one of the reasons people don't want to reg on LM is the nature of its spawncamping rules.

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It's not because it makes that one player better, but it makes many of the other players worse.
If this and the following supporting argument are to be believed then LM is both promoting skill but also "castrating" it at the same time. Maybe this element of confusion could have something to do with why 'skilled' players don't/can't play here.
A lovely thing to see:
through the paper window's hole,
the Galaxy.

December 06, 2004, 09:20:57 AM
Reply #87

rad4Christ

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It's my impression that MP_BS will always remain 1. If you want to discuss and inform the community on the legitimacy of certain scripts, by all means go ahead. I do agree with Keyser and the rest, certain scripts are absolutely harmless. But I still want BS set on 1. Why? Personal preference. I mean, that's what draws you to a server and keeps you there. Personal preference. And the personal preference at the servers management level is MP_BS 1. Just because players want to change it, does not mean LB has to. If you take issue, there are quite a few communities with BS 0 on them. I'm not trying to sound harsh, but you can't come into a community, and try to change the community to your personal preferences. You have to concede from time to time. I don't really care for the spawncamping rule mumbo jumbo, but I abide by it.

Why do I say this? Because I've said it, TAK has said it, and plenty of us are thinking it. if you want to discuss spawncamping or MP_BS, create another thread. This one is a GENERAL thread about things that the community needs to work on. So far, we back into the same old arguments, and I'm sorry, but we need to find adequate concessions to make these persistent issues come to a resolve, and we need to do it in another thread. Keep this one to the issues raised by Archi and his work, is the community dying?What is TLM known as in the wider community. What can we do to bring in fresh players and regs, not being biased to one skill level or another? Should we unban certain individuals that have broken the rules in the past and offer a clean slate? What can our admins/server do to communicate the rules in a clearer, concise way to ensure people understand and follow them?
tim
Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important. CS Lewis

SheenaYanai
: why do i have to be a stone? i dont want to be a stone... i want to do some harm.... can i be a exploding stone at least?

December 06, 2004, 09:26:59 AM
Reply #88

Legionnaired

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Some sort of amnesty program for lesser vioaltions might be cool...

December 06, 2004, 10:01:19 AM
Reply #89

Crispy

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How are these points (mp_bs 1/0, spawncamping kicks/bans and their rules) not valid? They clearly shape the number of and type of players you're going to get on LM. I'm not trying to insist on anything. At the end of the day I don't pay for the server, I'm not an admin and I'm not even a regular so I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me. I have a point of view on the matter, perhaps it's relevant or has merit, I obviously think so but I'm not asking anyone to change their beliefs. However there is the chance that LB might consider certain changes to enhance the gameplay on his NS server, and it's for this reason that I'm posting.

Scripts and spawncamping can be resolved by the server administration, it's how it is done that affects the community type and size. These are problems that affect the server, these are controllable by the admins and this is the place to discuss such matters as they fall into this category:
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What can we do to bring in fresh players and regs, not being biased to one skill level or another?
At the end of the day LB will make the decision. I think if he has already made his mind up (in light of this thread) about certain issues then he should post his decisions here so that the discussion can focus on the other areas affecting the LM community.

[Edit] r4d has a really annoying name to quote if you try and include the clan tag :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: December 06, 2004, 10:04:20 AM by Crispy »
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December 06, 2004, 10:37:21 AM
Reply #90

MrGunner

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This one is a GENERAL thread about things that the community needs to work on.

-Not banning everyone for breaking rules that you just made up on a whim.

December 06, 2004, 11:38:34 AM
Reply #91

rad4Christ

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How are these points (mp_bs 1/0, spawncamping kicks/bans and their rules) not valid?

I'm not saying they aren't valid, but I think big issues like this should be directed in to threads about them, or create a new one, not take this thread solely into a discussion of a specific issue. Forgive me, although there are thread about this issue, they are in a restricted forum, so I recommend you guys start one dealing with the specific issue in mind.
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-Not banning everyone for breaking rules that you just made up on a whim.

I should hope that's not directed at me, since i haven't banned anyone yet...


Usually, the bans I've seen that are questionable in nature are ones where the admin has applied the NO LLAMA rule or one that leads to a bit of interpretation. The reason people claim it was made up is 1. The admin might not have publically made the statement it is not allowed, or otherwise explained what happened, or 2: There was a disagreement between the player and the admin about the application of a certain rule (i.e. spawncamping), in which case the admin wins. If the player banned disagrees, that's what the PR forum is for. If a player disagrees, bring it to IRC, or email servers@lunixmonster.org
tim
Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important. CS Lewis

SheenaYanai
: why do i have to be a stone? i dont want to be a stone... i want to do some harm.... can i be a exploding stone at least?

December 06, 2004, 11:45:11 AM
Reply #92

Malevolent

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Usually, the bans I've seen that are questionable in nature are ones where the admin has applied the NO LLAMA rule or one that leads to a bit of interpretation. The reason people claim it was made up is 1. The admin might not have publically made the statement it is not allowed, or otherwise explained what happened, or 2: There was a disagreement between the player and the admin about the application of a certain rule (i.e. spawncamping), in which case the admin wins. If the player banned disagrees, that's what the PR forum is for. If a player disagrees, bring it to IRC, or email servers@lunixmonster.org
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Yes, that is exactly what happens sometimes. If the player wants to know what he did wrong, go the PR forums (although they should know already; if they don't know, they should have read the rules; and it's not like this sever's rules aren't well-known after all these debates, etc.). Don't go onto IRC to discuss it; go to the Public Relations forum. We do not want a debate over a ban in IRC please (it's meant to be a laid back place).
It's twice as clear as heaven and twice as loud as reason.

December 06, 2004, 11:47:35 AM
Reply #93

That Annoying Kid

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In fewpids poll frowning upon hardcore *llama* spawncamping is beating leave it as it is by a little more than half.

TLM has kinda drifted from protecting against spawncamping that frusturates and angers to making players hesitant about entering hive areas. Also I see alot of this talk directed towards aliens being spawncamped, but for aliens to attack the marine spawns they have to bite the exact area the rines come from. Granted one could easily learn the spawn points and pattern of a hive, but I see suprisingly little talk directed towards the other side of the spawncamp spectrum.

[edit]
hafhafhaf nub part removed
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« Last Edit: December 06, 2004, 11:48:03 AM by That Annoying Kid »
MAC DRE: Cold Crest Creeper, a rapper that would dip-n-yoke quicker than he could pimp-n-smoke, flows  that hit your ears harder than Ike hit Tina. Forced to serve a Nickle but would never drop a Dime.
K.C watch out cause the Bay's down like four flats on a Cadilac.

December 06, 2004, 11:48:02 AM
Reply #94

Necrosis

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How do we get more people? Word of mouth, and sticking to our guns. Most people become pretty aware of LMs rules in a short space of time, certainly people on the NS.org forums are keen to point them out.


On the amnesty point, the problem there is that who defines what a minor infraction is? If a definition is made, then what about the outcry from the people in the middle ground? And the inevitable cry of "server's dying, so they're clearing their bans". Its a self defeating procedure imho.
Necrosis killed Holy_Devil with pistol
Holy_Devil: cheater

December 06, 2004, 02:00:31 PM
Reply #95

A Boojum Snark

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Seeing as in the upcoming version of NS sieges will no longer do damage to players, not only will Marines have to deal without the additional blast damage of a siege cannon [Ed - as in on players when assaulting a Hive] but they'll have a tougher time holding that all-important siege location.

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This annoys me on how many people don't understand what that darned annoucement said. >_<
In b5 sieges do 165 blast damage. This means 165 damage to all players and double that for structures, 330.
In b6 sieges do 330 non-blast damage only to structures. The only change here is they don't hurt players, they still do the same damage to strutures >_<
What? Where exactly did I say or imply that? Oh right nowhere. OK  <_<
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As you indicated in the quote of yourself you were referring the damage done to players. However I read "Marines have to deal without the additional blast damage of a siege cannon" as referring to the damage being reduced because they don't do "blast damage".
It was simply my misunderstanding because you used a term which refers to a damage class, and coupled with the many times I've read people complaining because they thought siege damage was being reduced. So I guess my new point is be careful with the terms you use :p

*A Boojum Snark exits thread stage-left never to return
(why did I ever post >_> I hate getting into threads like these)

December 06, 2004, 04:05:39 PM
Reply #96

TheAdj

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Archi told me to add my points here since I wasn't talked to for the large text file.  I see several issues with LM, the main one of which is unilateral decisions and interpretations of rules by certain admins.  Many of the admins are quite fine, and I have no problems with strict rules, even if I find them ridiculous (I'll clearly state my opinion, doesn't mean I won't follow them to the best of my abilities).  The problem is when an admin takes a disliking to someone or a group of people and singles them out for speccing, harassing, and eventually kicking/banning.  I pubbed on LM for about 3 months using a smurf name and auth disabled, and not ONCE was I ever spoken to by an admin for anything I was doing.  I played just like I always do, except my name was different.  The first time I pubbed on LM with my normal name and my exigent tag on, I got harassed.  I didn't even have a vet icon, I had a consti, and people still bothered me.  Then I got a Guide icon, and I still got harassed.  Then I got a PT icon, and it really got poured on.  Here's an example of a game that lead up to my thread in the PR Forum.

Small 10-14 player game on ns_veil, I'm on Marines.  Good commander in the chair, obviously either a pub allstar or a competitive player smurfing, he's giving me meds and stuff as I need them.  I have text binds enabled so that when I hit keys that give impulses, they put text on the screen so the commander understands me.  My mic cable was severed (gg steel case door) so I was micless and unable to verbally communicate.  As the comm told me to do something I would hit my "Ackowledged" key which put ((.Yes/Ok/Thanks.)) on the screen.  I did not spam the key, I only used it in direct response to my commander's questions or orders.  Ammo/Meds/Orders also had the same layout as the previous bind.  Throughout a 15 minute game I used all of them a total of maybe 20 times.  About 6-7 minutes in I see a warning on the screen from Lightning_Blue that says "no spamming".  I had multiple teammates muted, so I simply assumed some of them were incessantly yapping, which is why I had them muted in the first place.  Nowhere was I named specifically.  Pipeline hive starts going up, and the comm dropped me a JP/Shotty and sent me in there.  I kill a fade on the way and several skulks, then get to the hive and meet another fade.  I had 9 shells total at this point and 80 HP, so I called for ammo and a med.  I get kicked halfway through soloing the hive with a message of "Text Spamming".  I rejoin, am forced on aliens because of teams, and have to now turn the game back around.  I apologize to the commander because I know that just threw the game, and he quits well before the game is over, most likely in frustration.  The game ends and the map changes to Ayumi.  The server was nearly full at one point, but once people started getting kicked it slowly lost players until we were around 10 at the mapchange.

Next game Vinnie is on the server speccing while lb is playing aliens.  I'm on marines, starting hive is Pressure (top of the map) on ns_ayumi.  A couple minutes into the game lb slays the entire team for spawncamping when the commander drops an armory at the pressure rt and exlicitely tells us on voicecomm "hurry up and build so I can drop shotties, hit the RT".  The RT I was building isnt' completed when I die, and is destroyed before I can get back.  We also lost 2 other RTs once the marines that were pushing ahead of them were slain.  Once Hamasaki is going up we get a PG up nearby and push in with Shotties and possibly a HMG (I really don't remember, I had a shotty which is why I knew some were out).  I pushed into ham and killed probably 2-3 skulks on the way.  I killed lb just outside the hiveroom itself, and pushed in to nail a gorge I heard.  As I was shooting the gorge I suddenly got kicked out of the game.  No reason was given.  I post on the PR Forums, I get magically unbanned but no reason was ever given.  

Things like this should not happen.  While LB does operate the server and makes the rules, you can't just randomly enforce your will like that and expect people to accept it and deal with it.  I've talked to multiple regulars, res slotters, and even admins who  don't like to play with LB on the server.  When you slay random players or even teams, TK them, and make the game not fun for others, who wants to stick around.  I remember the time I was banned for "pancaking" (lol) he slew the entire marine team multiple times and TK'd most of the game.  Do you really think that's fun for the other marines?  I refreshed the server the next game and it had like 10 people on, and by the time I was unbanned the server was empty.  I guess everyone enjoys being slain repeatedly during a game.  Kicking people for inane things like "text spam" (Which is most certainly was not) will make people not want to play on LM.  Taking Necrosis' normal "You don't have to play here" argument into consideration, he's 100% right.  I don't have to play on LM, and neither does anyone else.  That's the point, plenty of people are saying enough is enough and just not playing at all, or at least not playing when certain admins/res slotters/regulars are on.  Personal ideas, past grudges or experience, all that shouldn't factor into admin decisions.  The rules and the spirit of them are what should be used.  If someone is being a wanker, take care of them.  Kicking people using ill-defined or non-existent rules is preposterous and will cause people tired of the bull^^ to stop playing.  Saying "We don't ban for skill" then kicking people who are skilled for other ill-given reasons is the same as banning them for skill, you're simply doing it by proxy.  If I were a poor lerk would I have been banned for pancaking, an exploit that rests on technicalities in Beta5 (BTW, I did the work to help test and give ideas on the lerk flight mechanics, you'll see some of my handiwork in Beta6.  Rest assured that I'm not all Pro-Lerk exploits)?  I most certainly would not have been.  Would Lerklift still be on the server if I didn't fly around like a gork of doom with fatty for a couple of days last month?  It most certainly would be.  You can't say one thing and actually do another, actions speak far louder than words.

December 06, 2004, 04:26:13 PM
Reply #97

TheAdj

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Second, if someone spawncamps you in an rts, would you not say you find it mildly annoying that he's in the position to end the game but has instead decided to whittle your peon units while he builds a Tactical Fusion Cube/Dreadnought Army/Battlecruiser fleet in order to end the game in a humiliation win?

Wouldn't you rather they just roll in and finish it?


I've said it before, NS is not a game where 2 skilled players camp the hive with med/ammo spam in order to allow the other players to cap every node, get HA, and train into the hive. Yes, it can be done, but its not meant to be done.
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Team Starcraft games often devolve to this:  You mass units with teammates and focus on one enemy player.  You blow through easy defenses and bypass anything else, get straight to his peon line, and wipe it out, preferrably while killing the central structure (Hive, CC, Nexus).  This slows them down significantly, if not putting them out of the game.  In NS this translates into 2 things:  Hitting RTs or cutting a hive down in fast fashion.  The way the spawncamping rules are set up you can be banned for doing either or these.  I completely ignore built hives as a marine on LM because I know some admin who doesn't like me much will take notice and relieve me of my slot on the server, even if I'm not doing anything.  

The last time I checked NS is a RTS based game played out with FPS units, it still has strategy involved.  Completely cutting off the enemy team's resflow is catastrohpic to their morale and their ability to wage war, and constant base pressure is a classic RTS strategy to prevent expansion and prevent attacks.  If you remove that suddenly aliens have a free space that they can be in and expect little to no retaliation.  So what you're starting to do is limit the marine team's options even more than they are already limited.  

A spawncamp just to delay the game is ridiculous (when it's clearly over and they simply won't kill the hive when they have the ability to do so) and should be punished.  A spawncamp with an objective in mind that help's secure a marine team victory should not be punished by server admins.  Often spawncamps delay the alien team so more marines can arrive, or so they can complete an objective.  Aliens can hit marine start and force the marine team to either come back to base or beacon, why can't marines do the same?  It's a tactic that while annoying to the person being spawncamped, will 1) Teach them the importance of scouting out and preventing people from reaching the hive to begin with (critical for stopping shotgun rushes) and 2) Make people think of the big picture of how the game is going, and what they should be doing to help the team.  Keeping marines from going into the hiveroom enforces poor gameplay in this way.

December 06, 2004, 05:01:25 PM
Reply #98

MrGunner

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I agree with all that Adj says.

December 06, 2004, 05:08:31 PM
Reply #99

Quaunaut

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Couldn't have said it better myself.