Overly Chatty Penguins

The Ready Room => General => Topic started by: Architeuthis on November 28, 2004, 05:30:26 PM

Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Architeuthis on November 28, 2004, 05:30:26 PM
2 nights ago, I came home and read a post by GrayDuck, in the admin forums, that made me very angry. It was the last straw; I couldn't stand admins arguing over crap that didn't matter anymore, thinking those things were what was hurting the server. She mentionned that a couple of people approached her and said LM was going downhill.  I decided to ask people what they really thought.

I spent the last two days talking to people and putting this thing together. I talked to 53 different people. It was incredibly interesting and I learned a lot.

Here it is. Hopefully you guys'll learn something too. Please read this in it's entirety before reading the rest of my post and replying.

http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/galinstar/the...ade_private.txt (http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/galinstar/the_crusade_private.txt)

Last minute edit: someone just PMed me and wanted in
<Anonymous> can i be an anonymous man
<Anonymous> and say something
<Architeuthis|NOTHERE> ?
<Anonymous> to the forum post..
<Architeuthis|NOTHERE> Yes?
<Anonymous> so cna i add my 2 cents?
<Architeuthis|NOTHERE> Shoot, I'll see what I can do.
<Anonymous> ok
<Anonymous> I really believe the anti-script mantra has acted as a stimulant of both the bad reputation of LM and slightly the server's downfall. In the wave of blockscripts 0, LM has decided to keep scripts disabled and I personally have been flamed for mentioning scripts in the server.
<Anonymous> but remember,..im anonymous
<Architeuthis|NOTHERE> No problem
<Anonymous> hehe

That's about it. Don't reply with useless posts, make them worth it. And don't point out who you were, or try to guess who someone was.

Admins, please stay out of this thread and use the one I put up in the admin forums.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've been putting off finishing Metroid Prime 2 ever since I started this thing, so Samus has a date with the final boss.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: esuna on November 28, 2004, 06:50:21 PM
Great job archi, the crusade is complete.

Good to see some of the opinions out there, negative or otherwise.

*Waits to see what comes of the crusade*
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: LowCrawler on November 28, 2004, 07:13:47 PM
This has been very productive, IMO.

Great work, Archi.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Mr.Bill on November 28, 2004, 07:18:02 PM
Archi, if there were more rs/admin like you... Lm would be a perfect place.


Then again.. could we handle that many penis drawings? :-D

But honestly, I was reading through it, and a lot of it is dead on, it gives info from every angle, not just some guy whos had a bad day and lost to 3 shotty rush's in a row. it's from EVERY perspective, and the most important ones show up the most... maybe someone could go through it and get a scoreboard of most repetative problems. (not you archi, youve done enough work as is. )
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Loke The Sleek Peruvian on November 28, 2004, 08:27:57 PM
Really good job Archi, it's really good to see other people's comments.

Now we have to  see what comes out of this.

EDIT: Wow just 5 posts....are people avoiding this thread? o.O
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Decimator on November 28, 2004, 08:39:48 PM
I think most of us have already said what we wanted in ye large text file.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Legionnaired on November 28, 2004, 08:57:15 PM
Cool. So what's the plan, Skipper?
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Anarki3x6 on November 28, 2004, 09:18:30 PM
Quote
Really good job Archi, it's really good to see other people's comments.

Now we have to  see what comes out of this.

EDIT: Wow just 5 posts....are people avoiding this thread? o.O
[snapback]34463[/snapback]

probably just following the thread rules :)

i honestly read only about half the conversations, and most i agree with what people say... nice to see people talking about the problems.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Nuketheplace on November 28, 2004, 10:11:56 PM
I really don't have any complaints about the admins.  Maybe this is because I've made it my job to stay under the radar and not piss anyone off.  I really can't comment on that.   However I do think that its interesting the only way people came out and said what they were thinking was when Archi promised that they would go under the guise of anonymity.  If we have to remain anonymous when speaking out minds I think that says enough about the community.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: That Annoying Kid on November 28, 2004, 10:50:44 PM
AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Quote
esuna> LB reswhores too much. STOP GOING ONOS! XD
<Architeuthis> Hahahahaha
<Architeuthis> I'll put that at the end :D
<esuna> every. single. game.
<esuna> without fail
<Architeuthis> I've seen him go gorge
<esuna> liar
<esuna> you take that back
<Architeuthis> No really!
<Architeuthis> But maybe he hit the wrong key?

IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE IT'S TRUE!   :lol:  :o  ;)

hence why every game LB is in I make it a point to swing by the hives around the time it takes to get enough res to pwnos


archi, one thing I forgot to add was TLM is going in the right direction with no spawncamping rules, but I believe that it's a good thing to punish excessive spawncamping, or spawncamping soley to get almost to the top of the scoreboard, but yelling at people for spawncamping in a tactical manner should be less frowned upon.

that being said TLM is still a fantastic place to play / chill at
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Leaderz0rz on November 28, 2004, 11:07:10 PM
well he never told me it would be posted or anon so i have no problem with people seeing what i said.

i think one of the common things that came up in the txt dump was the fact that NS as a game is going downhill which causes servers to go downhill.. personaly i think we should post this on the ns forums or send it to a dev, to show that one of the really great NS servers is slowing down due to the game slowing down. they might already know and not care but its worth somthing atleast. I think some people just need to realise its a game, and you win and lose. people get seriously to worked up over losing.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: EmperorPenguin on November 28, 2004, 11:47:34 PM
What an amazing undertaking Arch.  It really opened my eyes to a lot of things that are going on, of which I was only familiar with a few.  I've always felt that it was a privilege to be a part of this community, so I didn't pay a lot of attention to the little things.

What I gathered from reading that fat file was that if we could all take things just a little less seriously, especially those in power, then maybe things would be better.  Of course, that's much harder than it sounds, and not easy to guage either.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Leaderz0rz on November 29, 2004, 12:00:51 AM
just to add some more.. after reading more the responses.


LB is a good guy, he is fun to talk to and just shoot the breeze with.  Being the single person in charge of maintaining a server and its community can be hugly stressful, i'm not saying this an excuse for the accustions that some people said. Personaly I've never seen LB ban someone for "killing him 4 times" hell i've killed him before 2x in a row when he as an onos etc and he never banned me, jsut called me an arse ;p. I think some people are just mad at him becuase they were banned..

Grayduck: You seem to be a nice person, but honestly I don't know anything about you. When you were made an admin it kind of striked me as odd since you were so new to the community, but didn't really concern me since I don't play NS anymore.

As far as banning good players go. Most of the "good players" that were mentioned were banned for being assholes and having the "better then you" attitude.  Or breaking rules over and over becuase they think they are stupid.

As far as Ura goes, yes he can be an asshole and he is infamous for his enjoyment of arguing with everyone about everything. I used to hate him and argue with him all the time. But once you get to know him he is auctaly a cool guy to talk to. I think he crosses the line alot with his posts, but thats just the way he is. Again that isn't an excuse for his actions on numerous accasions. Vinne I've never talked to so can't/won't comment.

I think i'm done ;p
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: confused! on November 29, 2004, 09:10:44 AM
it was an interesting read i have to say.

The real question is: where we go from here?

Particularly now that our dirty laundry is all public. by the way those socks smell like 5 day old meeces.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Kitana on November 29, 2004, 09:11:04 AM
Ok so I've only posted a couple of times in these forums ever.  I am not that involved in these forums or the channel (although I idle to support) mainly because I have a lot to deal with already with my cs clan.  I hate cs.  

I love the server.  Love it (and its not just because I ping 15 there :D).  If I ever forget how much, all I have to do it be up at 2AM when lm is empty and I'm dying for some good ns and I have to go play at NSArmslab or Texas HK Palace and I instantly remember why I love it so much.  I love the way its run.  It isnt like any of the other servers.  There is never chaos or exploits or hax or racism.  I go for a good game of ns with good players and thats usually what I get.  

Arch I am really impressed at the level of commitment it took to do your survey.  I read the whole thing and learned a lot.  If there is anything I can do to help just let me know.  I love the server and would hate to see it go.  


-Kit
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Legionnaired on November 29, 2004, 09:31:56 AM
OOH! IDEA!

So, Clanners and other HARDCORE people hate LM, right? Lets bust a cap in that image of us as a skill hatey server with the LM OPEN!

Host a clan tournament, double elimination, with any team of 6 being allowed to enter. We could get a good 20 teams or so up on it, get publicity from Zunni, throw it on rr.org, and breath some life back into the competitive game all at the same time!

We could also take demos of the games, analyse the outcomes, and apply some of the things we've discussed as far as balance issues to it. We'd become a microcosm of the entire NS community, and be able to go to the devs and state our case for what needs changed and how in an erudite and effective manner...

We could change the whole :D ing world!
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: esuna on November 29, 2004, 10:30:18 AM
Quote
OOH! IDEA!

So, Clanners and other HARDCORE people hate LM, right? Lets bust a cap in that image of us as a skill hatey server with the LM OPEN!

Host a clan tournament, double elimination, with any team of 6 being allowed to enter. We could get a good 20 teams or so up on it, get publicity from Zunni, throw it on rr.org, and breath some life back into the competitive game all at the same time!

We could also take demos of the games, analyse the outcomes, and apply some of the things we've discussed as far as balance issues to it. We'd become a microcosm of the entire NS community, and be able to go to the devs and state our case for what needs changed and how in an erudite and effective manner...

We could change the whole :D ing world!
[snapback]34508[/snapback]

The only reason that clanners and such seem to hate us is because of the ban list. LM's banned a lot of skilled players, and a lot of people that can't sit back and say "Oh hey, i was banned, oh well," no, they just shoot their mouths off badmouthing the server. LM has a ban list featuring the likes of #cri and exi, without a doubt two of the biggest named clans out there, and if they say it's a bad, people actually listen.

The issue is that out of everyone that gets banned, the people in the clans are the ones that kick up a fuss, and unfortunately they're the voices that people will hear. Some random NSPlayer getting banned isn't going to get listened to by any of the NS community, but as soon as you see #cri banned, you'll see a negative reaction from the community as a whole just because they can't shut up and take it like a man.

People aren't just banned because they're in a clan, they're banned for breaking the rules.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Crispy on November 29, 2004, 10:39:24 AM
Well as someone who's never even played on the server it worries me to see what has been described as a good community go downhill. I'm always looking for decent NS servers to play on and initially this seemed like it could have been one of them, but if the problems are still present when I finally get 'round to playing some NS again (rl stuff getting in the way of this) then I'll probably be put off.

To speak as a pretty objective 3rd party, I'd say that there are certain things servers can do to encourage or discourage certain types of players. To be a bit more specific there's really no doubt in my mind that the blockscripts setting will have an affect on those who regular on the server. I used to have a severely nooby attitude concerning blockscripts, to me they were like the work of the devil. I think you have to bear in mind that not a lot of people are really clued up on scripts (I know I wasn't), but after reading a lot of info on different types of scripts I must say my opinion has changed to a certain extent. Some scripts are still the work of the devil (imo) but there are some that (again imo) are perfectly permissable, and wouldn't ruin the game if more awareness was created about them. It's a pity that server admins such as yourselves can't simply draw a line between certain types of scripts to allow a more competitive gameplay, and have to decide between bs_1/0.

I think that catering for a more competitive game on your server won't put people off, in fact I think it would get rid of the noobs (I use the term noob not in a hateful way but to describe those who make a fleeting pass at playing games/mods without caring about it or others). 'If' there was some way to be a bit more leniant with scripts then I'm sure the games would start becoming 'fun' again. Those who really wanted to play NS would soon learn the ins and outs of a more competitive gameplay and stick around for the fun that can be had in a good community.

I don't think that a server community should be in any way defined by who idles in IRC and who actually plays on the server. The two (imo) are seperate entities, which can by all means overlap, but shouldn't be seen to be an 'are you in or are you out' social gathering.

On the topic of admins there's a lot to be said. If you have bad admins just get rid of them. If they make changes in their attitude and maturity then they can always be re-instated but Admin status should be a privilege and not a right to be abused. Nothing destroys a server's community or reputation more than a bad admin staff. A good team will keep the server free of 'unwanted' players (by unwanted I mean those who abuse rules and/or players), a bad team will lose respect from the players and consequently (as in your case it would seem) from the general gaming community (NS). Being kicked for playing the game is the worst thing you can ever experience on a Pub server, what's more it usually puts you off for a good while before you're prepared to venture back. Sort out the Admins and you'll solve your side of the problem. If the only thing wrong with people's playing experience is the game itself then you'll soon find out how much of a community you have.

Looking forward to seeing how things turn out...

Crispy
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Mr.Ben on November 29, 2004, 11:03:46 AM
I do not fear the lack of anonymity, if the admins wish to ban me for the following statements then fine though it'd do nothing more than justify my responses and only strengthen this "we're right, you're wrong" image that the LM admins have got amongest the community at large.

In my opinion LM has downhill and the major route of this problem is the "I can do what i like" attitude. I respect that you pay for the server LB, i respect the work, the money and the time you've put into this server and give you mad props for it. However the attitude you use to govern your server passes down onto both the players in the community, not just old but new.

Things such as blockscripts 1 because you say so is a poor justification, all it does is spread misinformation about scripts. If you'd care to justify it with a real reason and have an intelligant and mature debate about it then sure, but "my way or the highway" isn't the best way to run a community server i'm afriad. This attitude of scripts are bad and they'll not go over my dead body then passes down to other players, this is then passed onto new players who buy into it, why wouldn't they? LM is a respected and well known community so how are they to know otherwise?

So yes, blockscripts 1 and your reason for adding it is my first problem with LM, not just the blocking of scripts yourself but your reasons for the decision are pretty weak at best. Just because someones a freely elected president doesn't mean they can commit genocide, just because it's your server doesn't give you the right to push an anti scripting agenda.

My second issue with the server is spawn camping. This rule has been used to ban so many players who have been happy people though nearly always to a high skill level. You can claim all you like that you don't prejudice againist skilled players but lets look at the facts here, how many HIGH skilled regulars are left? 1, 2? Go figure.

Here's an idea, why not remove the rule entirely, add an umbra spawn protection for aliens and stop hindering gameplay? Hurrah! You see umbra spawn does what it says on the tin, aliens spawn in umbra. Lone marines can't spawn camp that unless the aliens are totally asleep and lets face it, they aren't going to win in that situation anyway so by not spawn camping and ending it quickly you're breaking the "dont drag a game out rule."

The rules are out of control and do nothing but hinder gameplay, i hate to have to stop and check myself to make sure by standing in this corridor or blinking in MS i'm not violating a certain rule and will end up with a post in the PR forum. That's not fun, that's a pain in the ass and when rules start to interfere with the game like that then you have an issue.

My final qualm is about the PR forum. (what a link!) Well maybe not the PR forum but some of the justifications for bans used. Quite frankly they're a joke and i find it humerous that the best advertisement for avoiding LM is in your public relations forum. "Hi i'm u235, i don't like you, i don't need to justify, prove or backup my actions, i have insubstantial evidence and you will now be banned for looking at me cock eyed, goodday." Really good PR there, no wonder LM is growing so much and so many new individuals are joining, with adminning like that where could you possibly go wrong?!

Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Malevolent on November 29, 2004, 11:40:55 AM
Well, good job on compiling all of this. It took a long ass time to read, so it must have taken awhile to write. ;) I agree with the fact that we need to give more leeway. I play on the server quite a bit, however, and it seems that most of the bans (now at leat and when I'm on) are pretty much justified. Also, most of the bans I see are usually temporary. I haven't been around much when well-known players get banned, so I don't see the circumstances of their ban.

Anyone who is a regular NS player who frequents the NS forums or that is in a clan should know LM's rules by now. LM comes up all the time in debates since it is pretty well-known, and many people do not like the rules (such as blockscripts). But they cannot expect to come on the server and not get banned if they are in deed truly spawncamping or breaking other rules. I have seen people deliberately (sp?) spawncamp,etc. although they know it's against the rules. So for now, follow the rules.

I do think that some of the rules should be changed (mostly in line with what people said in the .txt). I have lived, and will live, with the rules as they are now. I still can have fun with them. I know it doesn't hinder my gameplay that much. I hardly ever worry about spawncamping,etc. because I know the rules and have adapted to them. But things need revised.

To people out there who do not like LM (not like they will see this really) or people who don't play on it as much because of the rules, you can see from what Archi did that we are trying to consider other viewpoints and make the server a better place.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Necrosis on November 29, 2004, 12:02:54 PM
I don't think anyone's about to ban you for a statement, so long as its not a flame.

My opinion is covered in the big text file, I can see bits and pieces of my viewpoint there.

Ban system works, the only real problem is when people decide that the server rules are dumb and therefore feel exempt to following them. Justification of server settings/rules etc is all very well but lets not forget the example of the NS.org forums - one thread over 30 pages long full of a circular argument. Some people will not be happy with a "bs_1" server on pure principle, and will not accept any argument against their viewpoint. You can't have a mature discussion with these people.

I always thought it was to LMs credit that the banhammer is wielded against the nub and the elite with equal vigour. Its just the scores of nameless griefers never make a thread in PR about it, or run off to the NS.org forums to start a quest for the holy grail. Sure, some of the NS community will think "ogm tehy are banning teh clannorz" but anyone who's been on the server knows its not the case.

Look at servers where clanners have wilfully been banned on sight. They're clearing all their bans because they're dying. Yet LM is still pretty full and has a community with a broad range of skills, despite the propaganda of being a banhappy server. I'm not saying the server is perfect, but on some level SOMETHING is being done right.

As for the downward slide in NS gaming, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of a less than exciting B5, to the point where if I have a spare 15 minutes I'd rather blast through C&C than have a formulaic and stilted game. In fact I'm taking a break from C&C now, go figure.

I'll say this for LB and the admin team, I remember a game where I threw a hissy fit because I believed that we were being horribly spawncamped with the game being dragged out. Now, I wasn't banned, I wasn't griefed, I wasn't called a noob.. we had a rational discussion afterwards, shared our viewpoints, and it was all settled amicably. So anyone who picks up a line where LB is the powercrazy admin of banhammering doom, and means it SERIOUSLY, is working on a flawed premise in my eyes. Not unless a switch has been flicked sometime recently. And yes I have played games alongside the Onos.

"<Anonymous37> You wouldn't come over as a guest in his house and then whine that his "no feet on the couch rule" is lame and he should throw it out"

Gold star for that person. I know some people don't like the concept of "my way or the highway" but thats how the world works. NS is made the way Flayra wants it, LM run how LB likes it run, Star Wars is made as Lucas sees fit. Sure, we might not all like how it works, but that doesn't give us any real right to having them change it to suit us.


Anyhow, roll on B6. Hopefully it'll break up the formulaic play and make things a bit more enjoyable for us all.





Edit - I have no beef with Mal (not on my end), tbh it was fun to have a fellow person who suffered slotkicks and having to stay awake at unholy hours to get into a game. But I don't run the server. Fair enough I'm not on the server much anymore but jobhunting, dull play, and 7am starts mean I can't afford to stay awake late at night for sporadic gaming sessions of varying enjoyment.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: TheMunch8 on November 29, 2004, 12:46:15 PM
The servers that are clearing bans are *not* dying.  NSA has over 4 servers, and are full 24/7.  If you call that a dying community, then what community is thriving?
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Reasa on November 29, 2004, 02:34:44 PM
Well I've been away all weekend so I missed all of this frustration releaseing, but I'll add a few comments on the subject.

1st: excellent job Archi this looks like it took allot of time, but I think it was needed.

2nd: Pertaining to the PR forum I have to say in all honesty that it is very efficient, and the admins who I have dealt with personally were all very understanding and helpful. Having been un-banned twice I think I can say this with some weight.

3rd: The server community is great, it's the main reason why the only server I normally play on anymore is LM. Period.

4th: Spawn camping is the most annoying thing ever when it's happening to you, but when I reason with it, it's simply a very smart tactic to use. However if it is such a problem, why not as Mr. Ben suggested, add the umbra spawn thing, ether way people are going to complain, this way just seems less painful.

5th: I think the servers admin population limit has been hit, time to upgrade, or hit the delete key a few times. Just my personal opinion.

6th: *Shakes* LB could lighten up a bit more....maybe play marines once or twice, not do the auto assign thing so much....Just a thought...or a thought about a passing thought, which I might not have even had at all...*Shakes*
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: devicenull on November 29, 2004, 07:36:17 PM
Quote
The servers that are clearing bans are *not* dying.  NSA has over 4 servers, and are full 24/7.  If you call that a dying community, then what community is thriving?
[snapback]34524[/snapback]

I know you wanted us in the other thread, but I'll respond here.

IMO, NSA is popular for all the custom plugins and maps.  Pretty much anything I can think of is on their server ;)
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Isamil on November 29, 2004, 08:08:14 PM
NSA is popular because of the player count.

If a CS nub tries a mod, what are they going to do?  Filter servers by players.  Even though NS sucks with to many people, thats where most of the nubs are going to go, big servers.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: DiscoZombie on November 29, 2004, 09:39:00 PM
one thing that saddened me about LM is how I never got a res slot.  taboo subject, etc, but back in I think march through like may, I played 2 to 4 hours every day, hung out in IRC whenever I was home and not in NS, posted here occasionally, and was basically ignored... I remember Lito telling me he was petitioning to get me a res slot, nothing came of that (I appreciate the thought, man)... :(

I still wonder if I'm on someone's **** list.  This is still the only *anything* in any gaming community I was ever banned from - even if it was only for a few hours in the forums.  That was for posting a response in a thread about why people get so PO'd at getting FF parasited.  I agreed that it was a stupid thing to do and against the rules, but could not for the life of me see why it was worth getting bent out of shape over unless a certain person or set of people are doing it chronically.  I essentially said someone or another was being antisocial for raving militantly against it.  I felt it was exceedingly ironic that I was banned for this.  Getting flaming mad over people who do something childish but essentially harmless?  OK.  saying it's an overreaction?  bant.  

definitely made me feel even more alienated and put the last nail in the coffin, so I stopped playing NS for several moons.  now I pick it up once in a while, always on LM, because I still like the atmosphere - I always know what to expect, I know the people, I know who's good at what, etc... but I still feel like I'm playing under some kind of iron curtain when I *am* around... have to watch what I say, etc...

and by 'watch what I say' I don't mean 'restrain myself from flaming' because I'm not the type who would ever even be tempted to do that.  I'm an extremely casual NS player.  if someone's being an idiot on purpose and won't stop, I'll report them, because I respect the rules, and think they make the game more fun.  I just think there's a definite vibe about who can get away with saying what and who can't in this community.  

I respect the ban list with regards to gameplay infractions.  if it wasn't for enforcement of gameplay rules, LM would be just another server and none of us would love it.  it's the alienation of seeing some people get away with things other people can't that really sticks in my craw.  not to make it sound too much like a relationship, but I bet a lot of us non-res slotters would feel a good degree of closure if the server just went private for admins and RS ppl, and the rest of us shlub regulars could see in broad daylight that we really weren't wanted.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: TheMunch8 on November 29, 2004, 11:47:40 PM
Quote
Quote
The servers that are clearing bans are *not* dying.  NSA has over 4 servers, and are full 24/7.  If you call that a dying community, then what community is thriving?
[snapback]34524[/snapback]

I know you wanted us in the other thread, but I'll respond here.

IMO, NSA is popular for all the custom plugins and maps.  Pretty much anything I can think of is on their server ;)
[snapback]34540[/snapback]


Quote
NSA is popular because of the player count.

If a CS nub tries a mod, what are they going to do?  Filter servers by players.  Even though NS sucks with to many people, thats where most of the nubs are going to go, big servers.
[snapback]34542[/snapback]
NSA classic server has no plugins besides a reserve slot.  no custom maps on that server.  The combat server is another story.  And newbies go to big servers, not just 'nubs' as you call them.  
I like LM for the Blockscripts, cause it gives more of a challenge.  Its not fun to get pistoled as a skulk immediatly with 5 bullets.  etc etc.  I have fun explaining the game to people who don't know it once and a while.  Not counting how hard it is to get into LM when i want to play. :-p
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Leaderz0rz on November 30, 2004, 12:29:35 AM
thats the reason for teh command, hitting a button and shooting off 5 rounds from your pistol is not a skill, its just dumb. with it off, people complain and cry about people who can auctaly fire 5 pistol shots rapidly and call them a script whore. so i think its better with the command on, it just makes people not able to assume as much.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: TheMunch8 on November 30, 2004, 12:44:03 AM
Quote
thats the reason for teh command, hitting a button and shooting off 5 rounds from your pistol is not a skill, its just dumb. with it off, people complain and cry about people who can auctaly fire 5 pistol shots rapidly and call them a script whore. so i think its better with the command on, it just makes people not able to assume as much.
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Sometimes i am in the mood for scripts, and sometimes I am not :-p  I think it has its uses, and LM is one of the best servers that has it enabled.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: CorvusX on November 30, 2004, 05:49:38 AM
Wow, good job Archi!

Some of the points in there I agree with, others I missed, and yet others I can't comment on.  Ah well ^_^
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Quaunaut on November 30, 2004, 11:22:09 AM
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I don't think anyone's about to ban you for a statement, so long as its not a flame.

My opinion is covered in the big text file, I can see bits and pieces of my viewpoint there.

Ban system works, the only real problem is when people decide that the server rules are dumb and therefore feel exempt to following them. Justification of server settings/rules etc is all very well but lets not forget the example of the NS.org forums - one thread over 30 pages long full of a circular argument. Some people will not be happy with a "bs_1" server on pure principle, and will not accept any argument against their viewpoint. You can't have a mature discussion with these people.

I always thought it was to LMs credit that the banhammer is wielded against the nub and the elite with equal vigour. Its just the scores of nameless griefers never make a thread in PR about it, or run off to the NS.org forums to start a quest for the holy grail. Sure, some of the NS community will think "ogm tehy are banning teh clannorz" but anyone who's been on the server knows its not the case.

Look at servers where clanners have wilfully been banned on sight. They're clearing all their bans because they're dying. Yet LM is still pretty full and has a community with a broad range of skills, despite the propaganda of being a banhappy server. I'm not saying the server is perfect, but on some level SOMETHING is being done right.

As for the downward slide in NS gaming, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of a less than exciting B5, to the point where if I have a spare 15 minutes I'd rather blast through C&C than have a formulaic and stilted game. In fact I'm taking a break from C&C now, go figure.

I'll say this for LB and the admin team, I remember a game where I threw a hissy fit because I believed that we were being horribly spawncamped with the game being dragged out. Now, I wasn't banned, I wasn't griefed, I wasn't called a noob.. we had a rational discussion afterwards, shared our viewpoints, and it was all settled amicably. So anyone who picks up a line where LB is the powercrazy admin of banhammering doom, and means it SERIOUSLY, is working on a flawed premise in my eyes. Not unless a switch has been flicked sometime recently. And yes I have played games alongside the Onos.

"<Anonymous37> You wouldn't come over as a guest in his house and then whine that his "no feet on the couch rule" is lame and he should throw it out"

Gold star for that person. I know some people don't like the concept of "my way or the highway" but thats how the world works. NS is made the way Flayra wants it, LM run how LB likes it run, Star Wars is made as Lucas sees fit. Sure, we might not all like how it works, but that doesn't give us any real right to having them change it to suit us.


Anyhow, roll on B6. Hopefully it'll break up the formulaic play and make things a bit more enjoyable for us all.





Edit - I have no beef with Mal (not on my end), tbh it was fun to have a fellow person who suffered slotkicks and having to stay awake at unholy hours to get into a game. But I don't run the server. Fair enough I'm not on the server much anymore but jobhunting, dull play, and 7am starts mean I can't afford to stay awake late at night for sporadic gaming sessions of varying enjoyment.
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As to a specific line- "Anyone on the server knows that we don't ban clanners", I guess you haven't thought of me, Malibu Stacey, Leggionnaired, or anyone that doesn't look at clanners as a whole as bad people. Its obvious LM hates clanners, and I think its BS- and I've played on the server just as much, if not more, than 90% of the community. Malibu Stacey, when he wasn't banned, was there even more than me, and after 4+ months, STILL never got his RS, but instead, was banned for something he said in another channel altogether. And he was one of the prime things that made the server a better place, because unlike most of you, he believed that if people knew about the problems, they'd try and fix them. Sadly, because he had a vet icon and was a known clanner, no one listened to him. And because I am a known clan sympathizer, and go about things in a crude way, no one listened to me. The only reason people listened to Archi is because A: he's an admin, and B: he basically kissed ass to get them to say things(no offense Arch <3). I WAS telling everyone 2+ months ago how LM needs to clean itself up badly, and learn its old role all over again, because I knew that the regulars weren't liking it as much overall- especially when so many were leaving for piss poor reasons.

It just isn't right that we have to put up with BS rules at a place that didn't used to have them. Because as your anology from 37 about "You wouldn't go into someone's home and say the no feet on the couch rule was lame", I could equally say you BETTER say somethings wrong when you go into someone's house and find the dad raping the daughter. Sure, its a rule that she must get raped every day, but is it right? No, not even if she enjoys it. Saying we should just abide by rules doesn't make anything better.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Necrosis on November 30, 2004, 12:54:44 PM
I can see your side of that. Its like the old argument against the conscientious objectors during any period of war.

If you believed that that was the case, then yeah I can see why people would have to speak out, but to take your analogy further, if you just shoot the father then you've broken a law too, and should be punished. The solution is to report the father to the authorities and not take matters into your own hands.

So for an equivalent I would have suggested that anyone with issues on management/admining/etc should either try for a thread on the subject or approach people in IRC and ask for a private convo in order to voice an opinion.

Kudos that you get your point across without having to rant, btw.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Legionnaired on November 30, 2004, 01:29:10 PM
Hmm. What if we took a week and only banned for serious asshattery, temporarily suspending the gameplay-fixing rules?  We could see if spawncamping and commchair blocking really causes such demonic forces to be released on the server.

If it does, then Quan loses, the rules stay, and we have evidence they are needed.
If it doesn't, then we get a server better than before.

I'm good either way, we get positive change or positive quan humiliation :D . :) (j/k, wvu Qnut)
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Nuketheplace on November 30, 2004, 06:27:23 PM
Legionnaired I like your idea.  To me the idea of a perma ban is a little harsh for one infraction.  I understand why a reg would get banned for spawn camping or recycling base, but perma banning a random puber for doing something that is common on other servers seams a little harsh.  This is especially true after Steam came out and people can no longer read the rules while joining.  I vote for a week temp ban on pubers who brake the rules and only use prema bans on complete jerks and res sloters who knowingly broke the rules.  I know I'm not a admin, but that method seams a little more fair to me.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Quaunaut on November 30, 2004, 07:19:33 PM
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Legionnaired I like your idea.  To me the idea of a perma ban is a little harsh for one infraction.  I understand why a reg would get banned for spawn camping or recycling base, but perma banning a random puber for doing something that is common on other servers seams a little harsh.  This is especially true after Steam came out and people can no longer read the rules while joining.  I vote for a week temp ban on pubers who brake the rules and only use prema bans on complete jerks and res sloters who knowingly broke the rules.  I know I'm not a admin, but that method seams a little more fair to me.
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I too agree, and am willing to put myself up for public humiliation!(its fun!)
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Uranium - 235 on December 01, 2004, 06:02:08 PM
Archi didn't want us posting here because, I think, he wanted to avoid any acrimony between the admins and the players, and to stop from any he-said she-said finger pointing. That's not why I'm putting this here. I could very well make a brand new topic for it, and I will if you want me to Archi, but this is very related to the discussion at hand and I felt like throwing my $0.02 in. (If you are really intent on deleting it, Archi, at least just hide it so I can use it later. It took me like half an hour to formulate and write this out).

Blockscripts. I'm 100% against most forms of scripting in NS. I have a little story about this first...


I played Tribes 2 up until it began to stagnate and players became disinterested. Tribes 2 had a very open, very advanced, and very in-depth scripting engine. While not only did this scripting access open a new level of customization never before seen (How many games do you know of that allows you to implement your very own F-16-style fighter HUD that WORKS?), but it also opened it to exploits.

One of the most popular scripts for T2 was Automissile and Autoflare. For those that don't know, missile launchers worked like this:

You acquire the target on the launcher, and wait for a full-on lock on the vehicle or player. The player that you're targeting, or everyone in the vehicle, would then get an audible alert that roughly meant 'You're boned'. Upon a full lock, the fired missile would track into the target. The target then had to throw a flare grenade. This meant that only vehicles with free-firing player mounts could throw flares. Vehicles like tanks, where players couldn't fire their own weapons out, couldn't throw flares unless a player jumped out. One of the biggest threats was the Bomber. Bombers had a tailgunner, a heavilly armed and armored player who would fight off interceptors and toss flares. Good tailgunning was an art. You had to have very steady aim, concentration, and coordination. In a large fight against skilled players, tailgunning could be an overwhelming task.

Enter Autoflare. Autoflare took away half the job of tailgunning. Your player would, upon getting locked on, toss a flare grenade for you. Just like that. The task of flaring then took less concentration and you could focus more on important tasks like shooting other players. Further adaptations of autoflare would level your interceptor, hop you out and toss a flare (Since interceptors weren't free-firing platforms) and get you back in. Pretty soon nearly 75% of the community was using autoflare, and it was impossible to accomplish anything with missiles, since even the slightest lock would cause fireworks to shoot all over the place.


Scripting in Tribes 2 was entirely about 'customization', but it was also open to exploits like that. There were scripts that would automatically rangefind on heavy weapons for you and adjust the angle for pinpoint precision. The highly skilled players (Myself, for one) never needed these scripts, and could manually rangefind a mortar without even a crosshair. Scripting, in a way, bridged the gap between the highly skilled and the unskilled, allowing the stupidest newbie to automate half the processes in the game and instantly up their precieved skill level. While I loved many scripts in Tribes 2 (VectorHUD for one, the F-16 cockpit HUD I mentioned earlier) I also felt that they were far too easy, almost playing the game for you.


Then move to NS. I can bunnyhop with some degree of success, for a time. I've never used a 3jump script in my life. The saddest part? I can't bunnyhop as fast as someone using 3jump, but I do it on timing and skill. Now who's the better bunnyhopper? How about the pistol? Emptying the pistol in a couple of seconds takes a high degree of mouse control and one hell of a twitchy finger. The players that were truely skilled could fire their pistol insanely fast and still keep aim on the target. I could never do this. Every time I fired my pistol quickly my aim suffered quite a bit. I could theoretically use a pistol script and compensate, but you know what? That is tantamount to cheating for me. I wasn't capable of using the pistol like that. Why should I rely on the computer to do it for me? Next thing you know, I'm using an aimbot to 'assist my aim'. But then there's the customization part of me.

I had Tribes 2 tweaked so much, the game hardly looked like the core game itself. My vehicle hud had a prioritization system based on the map making it easy for me to chose my favorite vehicle and purchase it right away without risking getting shot while fumbling with the mouse. I had nearly tripled my favorites, and had every key on the keyboard mapped to something, and even more alt-, ctrl-, alt+ctrl- mapped as well. I had various indicators that would pop up and show me more clearly what the situation was.

Back to NS - Scripters attempt to justify that scripting is only about customization and nothing more. Bull^^ to that I say. The Half-Life scripting engine isn't CAPABLE of displaying informational popup HUDs to tell me who has the enemy flag and how fast they're going. THAT is customization. A script that drops a Defense Chamber and then tells your team that there's another DC active? That is customization. A button you can push that asks for a medpack and gives a text alert for the commander? Customization. A button that will switch you to leap, attack, then switch to bite in a thousandth of a second? That is NOT CUSTOMIZATION.

Firing your pistol very quickly without your aim suffering is a SKILL.

Bunnyhopping somewhat successfully despite frame rates and ping is a SKILL.

Blinking into a marine, cutting through him, blinking above his teammate and slicing him in half at nearly an inhuman blur is a lesson in timing, and ultimately SKILL.

Scripts that automate these processes aren't customizing anything for you. I've seen firsthand what these things do to a good game when everyone is using them. The unskilled become unnaturally skilled. The truely good players are... 'cheated' in a way. The only possible reason, just like Tribes 2, that people use these scripts is because they simply aren't good enough to do them themselves. The three most popular scripts - 3jump, pistol scripting, and leap/bite blink/slash, aren't customizing. They are COMPENSATING. All three of the skills they emulate require training to accomplish. And if you can't play the game without your autoskill script, then you may as well load your aimbot and wallhack, since it's tantamount to the same thing to me. THIS is why I am against scripting. Scripting begets cheating - except instead of using a 3rd party program, one uses the game engine itself to perform tasks for them. I have SEEN these things in action, and what they do to a game. I quit Tribes 2 for a time chiefly because I was disgusted with players who were only playing half the game, and the game was playing the other half for them.

When I heard of an option in NS to sacrifice customization in lieu of stopping people who are faking their real skill, I was, and still am, completely for it. Until a more advanced version comes along and bans people who are skill compensating while still allowing customization, then turn that one on instead I say.


As for those of you who used to use those skill-compensating scripts, you should be ashamed of yourself, and I frankly would not be surprised in the least that some of you die-hard scripters are basically exploiting on our server just to get your scripts back in and compensate. Shame on you, shame on you all.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Architeuthis on December 01, 2004, 06:57:45 PM
If other admins have wonderful posts like Uranium's they want to put in here, go right ahead.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: TheMunch8 on December 01, 2004, 08:53:43 PM
I agree that some of the things scripting does is out there.  But the 3 jump script is another story.  Someone with Low FPS has a harder time bhoping without it.  I do think that it should be implemented into the game itself, and blockscripts on by default.  People with low end systems suffer, and some can not afford to buy new video cards, or a new computer.  We need all the people we can get in the NS community.  We shouldn't alienate good people because they can't afford new computers.

The pistol script...should go.  The blink swipe scripts, should go.  It does eliminate some of the fun.  I ultimately have more fun on the LM server because Blockscipts is enabled.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Sandrock on December 02, 2004, 12:24:26 AM
I agree 100% with U235. There's my long and thought out post.  :blink:
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Mr.Ben on December 02, 2004, 02:21:23 AM
The HL scripting engine isn't the tribes 2 one. A pistol script, 3 jump or leap bite isn't faking skill, if they beat you with it then they'll beat you without it. This sounds like a classic case of "he's better than me so his scripts clearly gave him an advantage."

Lets discuss these individual scripts. Firstly, the pistol script. Now, you might assume this gives you an advantage but you're forgetting that the pistol has a capped rate of fire. Now your average person can get pretty close to this just by clicking as fast as possible, if you gave them a pistol script they'd exceed the rate of fire. You know what happens then? Your pistol doesn't fire, some advantage.

So if you use a pistol script, you don't fire faster, you have to lower the speed that you use click with to stay under the rate of fire. Instead however each click will fire two shots. The reason people use a pistol script is because they prefer the level of control it offers, but if they're killing you with a script they'll kill you without it. If two different people, one with and one without a script were to kill you you'd not be able to tell the difference.

Leap bite, blink swipe just plain suck and will actually make you a worse fade/skulk/lerk. Most people assume it was an aid because they had hud_fastswitch 0 and didn't know that you could change weapons like that but it isn't the case, they suck. No one uses them.

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I can bunnyhop with some degree of success, for a time. I've never used a 3jump script in my life. The saddest part? I can't bunnyhop as fast as someone using 3jump, but I do it on timing and skill. Now who's the better bunnyhopper?

If you can bunnyhop with a mouswheel or 3jump then you can bunnyhop with any key bound to +jump, you're not a better bunnyhopper because you're being a self righteous puritan and not using a script or mwheel. As you said you can do it with some degree of sucess, that's all ANYONE can do with +jump.

Now i can bunnyhop any which way you care to mention, i can use my mouswheel, i can use space +jump, hell if you wanted i'll bunnyhop with backspace. So actually, yes, the 3jump is just a preference for me. The only advantage it gives me is that i feel more comfortable with it rather than using mousewheel or worrying about dropping a frame at the wrong time. Having constant 100fps isn't skill but would be nessecary for top speed bunnyhopping with bind space +jump.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Hopelessness on December 02, 2004, 03:52:50 AM
I'm going to have to agree that scripts aren't that much of a problem. Weapon switching scripts are a hinderance, as they reduce  your ability to compensate for any changing conditions, missing, etc. Quite simply, the most effective thing is to use better key placement for your weapons.

3jump does make it easier to bunnyhop, but if you can't bunnyhop in the first place, you're not going to be able to with the addition of a mouse wheel or 3jump. (Note: I can't really bunnyhop either way except when practicing out of game) Either way, are you going to somehow block mousewheel jump too?

As for pistol scripting, if you don't already have great aim, it's a waste of ammo more than anything. If you do, then I suppose it's a slight advantage. And with special_ being taken out, I just don't see scripts being that much of an issue.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: lolfighter on December 02, 2004, 06:57:59 AM
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[...]A pistol script, 3 jump or leap bite isn't faking skill, if they beat you with it then they'll beat you without it.[...]
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I won't try to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like "scripts don't matter at all" in other words. If that assumption is wrong, please tell me what it DOES mean. If that assumption is correct, then nobody should mind that their scripts don't work, because they'll be able to perform just as well without them. Heck, they should thank us. It's like a man walking with a crutch all the time until the day somebody kicks it away and he discovers that he can walk perfectly fine without it.

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[...]And with special_ being taken out, I just don't see scripts being that much of an issue.
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Currently though, mp_bs is what blocks special_. Deactivate mp_bs and you allow people to use special_. That's the worst part about mp_bs, that it's a single package: There are only two choices, opt-in and opt-out. You can block special_ without blocking everything.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Legionnaired on December 02, 2004, 09:16:19 AM
3 jump or mousewheel scripts make all the difference in the world when bunnyhopping. You will, with some practice, quite literally never miss a skip. Hit the button a fraction of a second too early with only a button bound, and you stop dead.

No difference my foot.

I too was an adament player of Tribes 2, and while scripts caused a large detriment to the game when they first came out, people adapted to them, and ended up eventually creating scripts that canceled each other out. For example, early on you could make the   autoflare whiff by getting a lock, not firing, then breaking lock and getting another. Run the gunner out of flares, and get sweet tone on him.

So, then it so happened that you only flared if you had a missile coming after you. What was the counter? The auto missile script - as soon as you get tone you automatically launch a missile. People (at least those I played with) would stand on the top of a hill, jet as high as they could, get tone for a split second and fire, and still hit the bomber because the angle was too shallow between the bomber, flare, and shooter.

Scripts, at least the most common ones like that, changed the way the game was played, but it didn't destroy it. Instead, people adapted and got over it.

The debate over scripts comes down to what I call the essentialists and the purists. The essentialists see the game in terms of the basic, fundamental skills of shooting, biting, tactics and strategy, and see no problem modifying functions of the game. They see the absolutes, and pay no heed to the particulars.
The purists see the game as every aspect presented all at once, each one part of a delicate balance. They argue that when you change, or modify one, you destroy the absolutes.

Mr. Ben is an example of an essentialist, and U235 a purist. The problem does not involve individual scripts, it involves a simple assumption about the game itself: Are we going to give the developers absolute control over the balance of the game, or are we going to modify gameplay ourselves through augmenting already existing skills?

That said, neither viewpoint is fully wrong, and neither is fully right. They both have their valid points, but both also show some degree of ignorance.

Yes, changing some parts of the game will not affect it completely and a balance may be found, but in a game as delicate as NS, one change may break the whole game.

And yes, allowing no change will standardize the playing field, but in a game like NS where balance rests on a razor's edge, the slightest mistake by the playtesting team can break the game as bad as the worst scripts would.

Both of you are :D ing nuts :).

The solution to this is simple. We, as a community, the entire community of NS players, need to define the particulars of which scripts are acceptable and which are not. Is bunnyhopping a part of the game? Put it to a poll on the front of ns.org. If yes, then code in a _special key or a 3 jump key, and put it right next to the pop-up menu in the control bind section.

If no, then block any bind involving both ; and +jump.

Are leapbite and blinkswipe legal binds?
Yes - hardcode it in.
No - block any bind that has both +attack and slot* in it.

et. al.

Then we can get on to more important things, like fixing the fade/shotgun balance.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Quaunaut on December 02, 2004, 10:40:25 AM
I've *never* heard of a script that can give you a advantage, except for the "press this to blink" script. Everything else I've seen is a advantagious bind.

For example: Mousewheel. I use this to BHop myself.  It gives me a much larger advantage than those using a 3jump script, because I can spam it 12 times in a second(or more), and they can only do it maybe 3 or 6 times.

Another example: The so-called "pistol script". AKA, just binding attack to the press and release of your attack key. Once again, a bind.

Also, as ben said, leap-bite scripts and blink-swipe scripts aren't used, and frankly, are about as worthless as you can make it.

Saying all scripts are bad is just as bad as when people say "Video games make killers."

And for those saying that they shouldn't mind to if they outlaw scripts or not, think about this: You spent a good hour or two working to get money for a MX1000, then someone saying you can't use it because it unbalances things. You CAN play without it, but you won't like it, or go down without a fight.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: [Freemantle] on December 02, 2004, 10:43:51 AM
When I played Tribes 2, I used Panama Jack's full suite. The problem was, the scripts were not really a buff when compared to the natural skills that the game requires. I was good at the disc and that's all that mattered.

Natural Selection is not that way. I am (by far) a lousy Fade. Put a shotgunner in the room and I am sure to die. I can't physically blink and kill as well as many of the people I have observed on LM (Lochness comes to mind). I just don't think there are enough purely-twitch skills in Natural Selection to make scripts a small issue.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Niteowl on December 02, 2004, 11:58:28 AM
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A script that drops a Defense Chamber and then tells your team that there's another DC active? That is customization. A button you can push that asks for a medpack and gives a text alert for the commander? Customization. A button that will switch you to leap, attack, then switch to bite in a thousandth of a second? That is NOT CUSTOMIZATION.
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Saying all scripts are bad is just as bad as when people say "Video games make killers."
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I don't think ura ever said ALL scripts. If you are indeed replyingto ura.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Uranium - 235 on December 02, 2004, 07:10:20 PM
Thank you hoots, I've noticed that the last few replies come off as if you only read half my thread.

Panama Jack's scripts (While bloated and sometimes obnoxious) didn't include skill-compensators. I used em too because they were 100% customization. PJ's scripts didn't include a auto mine-disc script.

How about another type of scripting in another game? TFC. Same engine, right? Ever see the rocketjump scripts? Concjumpers? They could execute jumps with FAR greater precision then anyone who was doing it naturally could. I used to use them, then dumped them for my own skill. A player who is capable of a triple-blast jump without a script is a far better player then someone who has it done for them.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Hopelessness on December 02, 2004, 07:28:59 PM
Except those games aren't NS. There seem to be two different arguments going on here. On one hand, some people seem to be implying that scripts are universally (In terrms of all games, not in terms of all scripts) bad, and the rest seem to be arguing over the validity of individual NS scripts.

The argument over specific NS scripts seems to have come down to just the 3jump script. As mentioned elsewhere, many people simply prefer the mosuewheel for jumping. Are you somehow going to block people from binding jump to their mousewheel?

And as for NS as a whole, I don't think that NS entirely fits into the whole "Scripts, if there are good ones, are amazingly imbalancing" thing. The RTS aspect just doesn't quite fit it. A single bunnyhopping skulk is going to be better than one just running, but he's not going to win the game. Likewise, a pistol scripting marine (If it even helps him much) will have a relativly small effect in the game overall.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Reasa on December 02, 2004, 07:45:38 PM
Scripting in NS seems unnecessary, I really can't see any advantage to it, and if there is one it must be small however I consider it to be unfair.

I don't use any scripts, never have and never well, I don't even know how to do it and I don't really want to. I play just fine without them, and so should everyone else, you do not need some extra boost, whether it has a placebo effect or not.

Seems all the scripts are good for is causing arguments and casting doubt on a player’s skill. I have to wonder why the problem was not headed off and scripting was not disabled from the beginning of NS. Now that many people have them removing the function would be much harder.

To be concise, scripts should be removed from the game, you are not a developer, you should not take game play into your own hands, play the game the way it was meant to be played.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Hopelessness on December 02, 2004, 08:05:51 PM
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To be concise, scripts should be removed from the game, you are not a developer, you should not take game play into your own hands, play the game the way it was meant to be played.
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So the developers should dictate exactly how the game should be played? Does it somehow offend them if someone plays differently then how they personally would enjoy playing it the most? The developers are providing a framework for playing games. We're the ones actually playing.

When people come up with new strats, is that playing it in a way that the developers invisioned it? No. They're changing how they play the game to make it more enjoyable for themselves. And if the developers wanted to control the game so much, I could just as easily argue the opposite from the standpoint that they specifically left alien bunnyhopping in, and only recently did servers start choosing on their own whether they wanted to block scripts.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Quaunaut on December 02, 2004, 08:05:56 PM
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Scripting in NS seems unnecessary, I really can't see any advantage to it, and if there is one it must be small however I consider it to be unfair.

I don't use any scripts, never have and never well, I don't even know how to do it and I don't really want to. I play just fine without them, and so should everyone else, you do not need some extra boost, whether it has a placebo effect or not.

Seems all the scripts are good for is causing arguments and casting doubt on a player’s skill. I have to wonder why the problem was not headed off and scripting was not disabled from the beginning of NS. Now that many people have them removing the function would be much harder.

To be concise, scripts should be removed from the game, you are not a developer, you should not take game play into your own hands, play the game the way it was meant to be played.
[snapback]35013[/snapback]

If the developer didn't want us to use scripts, THEY WOULD RESTRICT US FROM USING OR MAKING SCRIPTS. SIMPLY USING THE COMMAND "alias" WOULD BE MADE ILLEGAL. Notice, THEY HAVE NOT DONE THAT. Also note, that as for the sv_blockscripts, it turns out that ALL of the devs were against it, sans maybe one(Voog, and thats a maybe). Why did they implement it then? Because it was a highly requested feature.

Seriously here, half of you that are making these allogations seem to have never touched a script. The only scripts I use are for chatbinds(Roger that! Res tower or phase here! Orders? You don't see that everyday....thank God.), and otherwise, I'm without. But guess what? I don't look down on them either. You know why? They don't affect your skill. Theres no script in the world that could help you aim. Theres no script in the world to make you a better fade. Theres no script in the world that could be actually useful to make you blink/swipe or leap/bite. Theres no script in the world that is enabled in Half-Life that would give someone an unfair advantage. Using scripts is the way the game is meant to be played. If it wasn't, they would hardcode aliasing out, now wouldn't they?
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Isamil on December 02, 2004, 08:17:45 PM
Quan, lets look at a pistol script.

It allows you to fire 3(or more) shots from your pistol, at a rate that is faster then MOST PEOPLE can manage.  When most people try and fire a pistol like that they A.Can't fire that fast and B.They lose accuracy from the mouse jumping

The pistol script automates this.  I'd love to see how you can argue that a pistol script doesn't give you some advantage.  Yes, some people can do it without a script at all.  But those who can't can use the pistol script and get the exact same effects.

A 3Jump script, IMO should be built into the game.  When you factor in lag, FPS, etc, its sometimes not possible to bhop correctly even if you're perfect at it.

Edit for dubb:Well, like Uranub said, the pistol script is an advantage because it automates a process(firing the pistol rapidly without mouse jumping) that many people can't do normally.  I'm not saying there is any aim script or go faster script(well, actully there sort of is but it doesn't work to well).  I'm saying that the scripts can automate processes not everyone can do.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Dubbilex on December 02, 2004, 08:17:58 PM
Going back to the pistol script:  if I can set up a script that allows me to shoot a single bullet with a downclick, and another with the release of that mouse button I will essentially be shooting twice as fast as I normally would be without that script.

Like U235 has said - I can't aim for crap if i have to click like a squirrel on speed to shoot that fast.  if I had ownership over a script that allowed me to shoot the same amount of bullets with less keypresses, that is an advantage.

No there is no "aim" script.  Nobody ever said there was.  However, scripts can make it easier to aim a greater number of shots, and ultimately cause more damage more accurately in less time.

If that's not an advantage, I HAVE NEVER SEEN AN ADVANTAGE BEFORE.


*edit* for ISAMIL: 3-jump Script blahblah
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Hopelessness on December 02, 2004, 10:15:20 PM
Sure. It's an advantage, but it has to be taken in perspective. Considering everything you can do to improve your play, a pistol script isn't going to be a game-winning thing.  Really. Being able to shoot your pistol faster  is probably not going to tip a fairly balanced game in your favor.

For individual improvement it's going to have much less of an impact, than say upgrading a video card to get a constant 100 FPS. And the script doesn't exactly require a monetary investment. Even so, the only scripts I care about using on a regular basis are ones for convenience.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: rad4Christ on December 03, 2004, 12:45:11 AM
Honestly, whatever pistol scripts or +3jump can do, mousewheel can to. I think the question is whether fast pistol firing and bhopping should be allowed at all...


But... let's keep this discussion focused on the purpose of the thread, slight deviations permitted, but start yet another scripting thread if you want to go into excruciating detial, but save us from meandering through it.

I think that admins need to be a little more communicative with warnings, and even when kicking adding the reason to the end. And personally, all bans should have been after a kick, unless a blatant problem. Yes, we need to clean our image of shunning skilled players, but that also means some of the skilled players need to realize this is a pub, and things are not going to be treated as CAL. RS and regs need to whine a little less about skill or spawncamping, or whatever, and focus on the atmosphere of enjoying the game, instead of nitpicking the rules to the point you have the Constitution of the US. IT IS A GAME. Enjoy it. Admins keep the crazies out, and regs keep the community going. But we all need to concede on some of our ideas of "the perfect LM community"



Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Mr.Ben on December 03, 2004, 01:43:42 AM
So what you're saying is that scripts being bad in other games makes them bad in NS? Go figure.

Lolfighter, the advantage scripts offer is so negilable that most peoples play isn't hampered at all by bs_1/0. Of course people who are used to 3jump spacebar bunnyhopping may have a hard time adjusting to mousewheel or a simple +jump but the script offers no more of an advantage than simply binding a key to mousehweel.

If we want to talk about advantages then lets talk FPS and speakers. Someone with a 100fps has a MASSIVE advantage over someone with 60fps, their gun fires faster, easier to bunnyhop etc etc. Speakers also have a massive effect on people, good speakers negate the need for MT to a degree and allow for you to pinpoint and track aliens movements easily. How about internet connection? I hear broadband gives a big advantage over 56k. The advantage from scripting is so small that it's almost non-existant, there are far bigger things to worry about if you want to level the playing field.

I've already said that you can't tell the difference between someone using a pistol script or not, you can't tell the difference between 3jump and mousewheel. So, if scripts are so usless why use them i hear you ask? We're talking preference here. That is ALL this boils down to. I want to be able to bunnyhop at top speeds and consistantly, i don't want to use a mousewheel which is a totally legit way of doing it because i'm uncomfortable with it. What's the alternative? A 3jump. Tell me why a 3jump is bad and a mousewheel is okay? It's because it's a script. So you see the advantage it gives you is allowing you to play with a config you're comfortable with.

For me not being able to bunnyhop whilst not actually effecting my score much effects my game, if i'm jumping a long and i lose speed it's annoying, it's annoying to not be able to string jumps together, it just throws my mojo off entirely and if i'm not comfortable then i play poorly. I'm far happier on a bs_0 server because i can settle in and just play properly.

Yes in the ideal world a 3jump would be built in and the devs could negate the need for most of these scripts but removing scripting all together isn't the way forward. Some people NEED scripting because they have poor hardware or are disabled, if you can't get 100 fps then you'll never bunnyhop properly, why should they be punished? Why should a disabled person who maybe cannot click as fast as us for xyz reason be punished? I do expect a 3jump to be included in future versions, it's something that has been suggested countless times and something that i know is supported by some of the devs.

Reasa, saying that scripts should be removed because it's not the way the game is meant to be played is silly, you know the devs could remove scripting all together but choose not too therefore scripting and customization is part of their overall vision. Also blockscripts is 0 by default.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: JohnTheGarbageman on December 03, 2004, 03:30:57 AM
Quote
Quan, lets look at a pistol script.

It allows you to fire 3(or more) shots from your pistol, at a rate that is faster then MOST PEOPLE can manage.  When most people try and fire a pistol like that they A.Can't fire that fast and B.They lose accuracy from the mouse jumping

The pistol script automates this.  I'd love to see how you can argue that a pistol script doesn't give you some advantage.  Yes, some people can do it without a script at all.  But those who can't can use the pistol script and get the exact same effects.

The only workable pistol script fires once upon depressing your firekey, and once on releasing, but only if you don't overshoot the RoF. For some reason it doesn't work either if you wait too long.

Why is it like this? Because the Half-Life scripting language was designed just as an extension of your keyboard, and intentionally made to not be able to macro complex actions (and when it attempts - like blink/swipe, those scripts are clumsy and useless). To make that possible without removing all freedom, they made the wait; queue - if you queue up too many waits, you can't give new input until they've all expired. So if you tried a 3-5 or even a 10shot pistolscript, you would be stuck or wiggling uncontrollably on the ground upon firing - even if your gun was empty. This is why _special is a big deal, because it circumvents wait; .

By the way, there is a _special metamod blocker, so mp_blockscripts 0 doesn't have to mean special_ would be unlocked.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Crispy on December 03, 2004, 06:51:49 AM
So ^^ed off.

After writing a very lengthy reply on this topic the ^^ing EZ^^net pile of ^^ browser froze and I lost a good 1/2 hour of my life. Please leave this as it is as I'll come back and edit it when I've calmed down/EZInternet has been reduced to a pile of smouldering ashes...

P.S. There was also a powercut when I was here yesterday and I lost a very long email I was writing.

P.P.S. I applied to a job yesterday and when I got to the restaurant the Manageress pretended A: not to know me and; B: that they hadn't advertised for staff. When I asked here why she was sat waiting in an empty restaurant she said that she didn't have to explain her actions to me.

P.P.P.S. I currently have £-64 in my bank account and a fine for being overdrawn.

P.P.P.P.S. Life is fun.

[Edit] I know this is completely off-topic so please don't write posts which have no relevance to the topic in response. I know that's exaclty what I did but I do have every intention in editing it and not derailing such and important thread.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Legionnaired on December 03, 2004, 09:42:47 AM
YOU ARE ARGUING OVER WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE WHO CAN CHANGE WHAT IN A GAME.

THIS IS NOT A MINOR ISSUE, THIS IS A FUNDAMENTAL GAMING PHILOSOPHY THAT EACH PERSON HAS A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON!

THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF MY ABOVE POST!

This will NOT be resolved by arguing! We(The collective body of ALL NS players) need to sit down, put it to a vote, and agree to live with the outcome. Either hardcode in basic scripted functions, or hardcode them out for everyone and leave it to that.

The developers have taken a middle of the road choice in giving control to server operators, but have not resolved the issue. We need to put it to a general vote with the entire community represented, make the choice, bury the issue, and get on to fixing DMS/ Shotgun v. Fade gameplay!
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Reasa on December 03, 2004, 01:46:18 PM
Quote
Reasa, saying that scripts should be removed because it's not the way the game is meant to be played is silly, you know the devs could remove scripting all together but choose not too therefore scripting and customization is part of their overall vision. Also blockscripts is 0 by default.

I highly doubt scripting was or customization really had anything to do with their vision, the game itself is was surely enough.

What makes me mad is the main argument in defense of scripts seems to be that they don't give you any advantage or any "noticeable" advantage and you’re just as good without them. So then why even waste your time with them, if you can play just as good with out those extra 2 pistol shots, why even bother? Are you telling me your mindset when implementing it wasn't geared towards giving yourself an advantage?

But I really don't want to argue, this is the way I feel and not much well change that.

I like Legionnaired's idea, but unfortunately I don't think anything like that is going to happen.
The issue well most likely be left as it is for better or for worse.


Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Guest Bacon on December 03, 2004, 01:49:49 PM
Theres just something fishy about clanners fighting tooth and nail over this, then going "oh, I dont really need it btw." <_<
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Quaunaut on December 03, 2004, 06:19:13 PM
Here, for you people who seem to be too thick not to read it the first time:

The reason they/we fight for scripts is because we've spent time on them making the game easier for us personally(no advantage). Its like spending 2 hours working so that you can buy that MX1000 mouse, then when your done, being told you can't use it because "We say so", even though they don't even know the jist of it. It doesn't give a unfair advantage, its just simply a matter of preference. I find it funny that so many of you argue against it, and yet fail to ever learn anything about it.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Guest Bacon on December 03, 2004, 07:09:34 PM
"too thick not to read it"  heh.


I know what scripts can do. I know their limits. Ive used some myself. I personally have nothing against it. Thanks for your assumptions anyway :)


[devils advocate]
convenience. advantage.
where do you draw the line?


Scoreboard+netgraph script. Innocent and convenient, no? It gives the user the ADVANTAGE of being able to get that info faster than one who does not have this script. Is the advantage trivial? hell yes. Is it still and advantage? yep.
A convenience is an advantage.


Why are steroids banned substances? I mean, the users still have to train their bodies. Its just more CONVENIENT to use 'em. Its not like you take them and they do the workout for you. Heck, you gotta go buy the drugs themselves. You gotta spend time to get the money to buy these drugs.
An advantage is a convenience.


In this sense, you can call every convenience gained an advantage and every advantage a convenience.


Think about what you said. "The reason they/we fight for scripts is because we've spent time on them making the game easier for us personally" Heh, isnt that what a cheat does? make a competition easier for yourself? Who are you to decide which convenience is not too convenient?
[/devils advocate]


I've used scripts (3jump mostly, romano's switch thing was nice too). I lost them over a reinstall and am too lazy to get them back. If you really dont need it, you should be able to lose them and not feel the need to raise hell to get it back.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: MrGunner on December 03, 2004, 07:10:50 PM
Blockscripts only keeps clanners that casually pub away from your server.  A fair amount of the serious players stay away because they don't like getting banned and/or harrassed while playing.  

I believe the inane rules which are selectively inforced to be at the root of the problem.  The "no advertising" one for instance keeps me from wearing my tag on your server (I'm #cri.nner by the way).  I found this to be an assinine rule but seeing as how it isn't my server I went along.  Apparently the admins failed to see the humour when I changed my name to "POUNDcri.nner" as a compromise.  Since then I've been banned every time I join the server, without warning, no matter what I change my name to.

Everybody make such a big deal about mp_bs 1 but most people seriously could care less as there are plenty of both servers.  I personally could care less whether or not you decide to run with mp_blockscripts on or off.  I choose to use a 2jump and 3jump script for scrim/clan play but I can rebind my keys quite quickly for servers where the admin thinks it gives me some advantage.  I do this on a number of other servers that I frequent.

Plain and simple the reason why other servers have much larger communities is because they choose to just let people play the game instead of enforcing arbitrary rules with the banhammer.  If someone is using an aimbot, ban the :Der, but are you just going to keep on banning everyone else just because they don't play the way you want them to?
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Keyser59 on December 03, 2004, 08:55:55 PM
Quote
Scoreboard+netgraph script. Innocent and convenient, no? It gives the user the ADVANTAGE of being able to get that info faster than one who does not have this script. Is the advantage trivial? hell yes. Is it still and advantage? yep.
A convenience is an advantage.

Where do you draw the line? Do you think it's unfair that people with Mx510s play against people with roller mouses? Do you think somebody's headphones gives them clearer audio than someone elses? Those are all much more significant advantages than the ones you mentioned.

I don't really care about scripting to the point where I would get into a flame war about it, because I can play fine either way. But people still haven't realized that this applies for everyone. My only problem with scripting is it divides the community needlessly. Blockscripts is the equivalent of allowing server admins to decide whether scripting is abusive, and it doesn't make sense.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: That Annoying Kid on December 04, 2004, 12:52:03 AM
you forget about all the malicous nasty scripts that no one but Tyr and a handfull have access to in teh mantis, and I'm sure there is plenty of bored people who are smart enough to create something else.

I personally don't like blockscripts because I have to use something physicall to evade the AFK kicker, and I want to try at three jump instead of the mousewheel.

Oh, what other productive things have blossomed from your work Archi?


how did this whole thing suddenly break to scripts  :huh:  :help:
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Crispy on December 04, 2004, 05:48:43 AM
Seemingly because that's one of the major issues. I can't see why, a good player is noticeably better when mp_bs is on, and there are plently of servers without BS. I think that not letting someone wear a clan tag because it's an irc channel as well is pretty poor. It really has no effect on the community unless a clan starts actively trying to recruit on the server. If you compare that to how many players it puts off (the majority of whom are put off because of the sillyness of the rule, not the rule itself) then you might recognise how ridiculous it is.

On the other hand it's not so hard to change your name (at least in the current version) to something without a clan name. In #cri.nner's case he could have just as easily changed it to Crinner (or Mr. Gunner) instead of trying to evade this rule.

All in all I think that the rule in itself gives off a sort of spoilt brat dictator attitude, trying to make people conform to rules that just don't do anything to help gameplay at all is worthless and gives off a bad vibe.

What's gonna happen when the new NS naming system is in full effect? Will anyone with a clanname containing an irc channel have to 'procure' another copy of HL to get a new NS name before coming onto the server? It sounds pretty silly to me, I'd suggest you review it's worth before it really starts putting players off.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Sydney Carton on December 04, 2004, 07:51:14 AM
Hey. Just to let the copious amount of people who have no idea who I am know that I'm not talking out of me arse, I've been playing here since 2.0 release in various shapes and forms, had a res slot at one point, and donated money to both constellation and the server. So I do have somewhat of a stake in the future of LM (not insofar as my opinion should actually matter, just in that I don't want to see it collapse).

Suffice it to say, I really don't play here anymore. The reasons are more EQ2 and HL2 than anything else, plus the most intense semester of schoolwork I've ever had, but there are a couple things that tend to drive me away from NS.

The first is that as of late, the various rules have just been piling up, and the no-tolerance is wearing a little thin. As an example of such a rule, we're playing a game of combat and suddenly I hear that a dictate has been announced that there will be no more sporing of marine spawn anymore. I'm a lerk, the marines are being pressured in their base, and suddenly I'm castrated into ineffectiveness because I'm scared that I'm going to spore the wrong place and get the bant stick.

In addition, there are admins that, whenever I see them log on, be it in the middle of the game, I log off. I just don't enjoy the tense atmosphere they create. Most of the times, it's an admin that I've rarely seen log on, and when they do someone almost always catches the wrong end of the bant hammer for some sort of seemingly-frivolous reason (I'm not talking about when someone comes in for an !admin call, but then again, usually these people are not the ones that respond to the !admin call). Or every minute of every game that someone could possibly be doing something wrong, they get an instant /talk saying "OMG don't do that again or bant." Warnings are fine, but it gets annoying when the admin feels the need to micromanage every incident. As one example, TKs happen; it's why we have FF turned on, otherwise it wouldn't make sense. If a reg TKs someone and the TKee is not complaining, chances are there is no problem to manage.

I need to go now for an exam, but if I get the chance I'll sign back on to continue this list.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Malevolent on December 04, 2004, 08:54:03 AM
Quote
The first is that as of late, the various rules have just been piling up, and the no-tolerance is wearing a little thin. As an example of such a rule, we're playing a game of combat and suddenly I hear that a dictate has been announced that there will be no more sporing of marine spawn anymore. I'm a lerk, the marines are being pressured in their base, and suddenly I'm castrated into ineffectiveness because I'm scared that I'm going to spore the wrong place and get the bant stick.
[snapback]35152[/snapback]
That happened on this server?
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Necrosis on December 04, 2004, 10:12:24 AM
Every NS discussion boils down to scripts now. Honestly, you'd think they were worth something.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Kodiac on December 04, 2004, 10:49:50 AM
Alright, I just want to say a few things.

First, I began playing here when the server i origianlly palyed on went down [sleepless].  
I enjoy playing here and haven't really got any complaints.

However, there are a few things I have heard form otheres while playing.

1).  The no spawncamping rule interferes with seiging/assaulting the hive.

BAH! HUMBUG!

Alright, I am not everyone, but i ahve NEVER been accused of spawncamping a hive, and also to my knowledge have never accused anyone else of camping a hive.  To shotty rush a hive is, or should be, completely acceptable.  If the aliens have managed to let the marines get that much res and that many shotties that close to the hive, they deserve it.  When seiging, a comm only has so much scan energy, and can't scan forever.  He needs a person in the hive to spot it.  The marine is entitled to defend himself, as he is making an active effort to destroy structures(spotting).  I be;lieve that is stated in the rules.   To have  marine in the hive is not the end of the world, nor is having a skulk on your ip the end of the world.  Often, these "spawncampers"  are so engrossed in killing you that a single {insert lkifeform name here, marine or kharaa} can kill it iun about two seconds.  

NS is about teamplay, and balancing issues have never been a problem for me. WHen I lose a game, I lose because the team i was failed to work AS A TEAM.  They worked as a group of individuals, and that leads to spawncamping, as isolated losers camp the hive or ms while waiting for something to do.  The marine depends on teamwork in the game and aliens do as well.  

Thus, my opinion on this rule is that works, and the root behind it is the lack of teamwork.

Now, alright, i have had my rant of on spawncamping, and have now progressed to rambling.  I try not to, but meh.

TEAMWORK IS THE ANSWER!

Many of the problems lm is having come from a lack of teamwork.  marines do not listen to the comm, and the aliens dont move as a team.  PLEASE! SPARE ME THE FLAMES!  CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF, ALIENS ARE NOT LONERS!  an onos with no support dies.  END! OF! SENTENCE!.  Fades get burned by shotties without skulk, and skulks themselves can't take out heavies or jp without support.  So why the classic loner view?   WHO KNOWS? WHO CARES?  the way that you win in any game is to use unconventional tactics.  shotty rushes in the first minute  of the game works only because aliens never expect it.  Skulk rushes work because nobody expects them anymore.  So, expect the unexpected, and deal with the way the game is.  You cant whine about not having plasma rifles when they arent  even in the game.  To say that a game is unbalanced is also untrue.  ANY game is unbalanced, and there is always a side that has an advantage.  War, FPS, RTS, RPG, ANY GAME will have a side that has the odds in its favor.  What must be done is to learn how to counter that advantage and deal with it.  I dont whine because a lone marine with an hmg/jp owned me, i shut up and realize that the best way to kill that is with a lerk.  When the aliens have the map, i push the hive, take the attention away form the res and onto the hive.  Then i cap nodes and run.  If i am all aloine and know that somehting important is going on somewhere, (such as a hive going up) i attack and divert attention.  ALWAYS keep the attention away form what you are truly doing.  
Also, little point-  For ye olde turret farming comms and wol-ing gorges-
STATIONARY DEFENCES ARE A MONUMENT TO THE STUPIDITY OF MAN.

anyway, many of the problems here on lm can be overcome by a simple rule that actually already exists.  LISTEN TO YOUR COMM AND TO YOUR TEAM.   The teamwork issue is the ONLY way i ahve seen lm go downhill, and it is more of a problem with the regs and semi-regs than woith the admins themselves.  Admittedly, admins ahve banned good players, but how do you qualify them as "good"?

By how many aliens they kill?
spawncampoers kill often, but do not contribute to team efforts

How often they die?
a pansy in the corner will survive the whole game, and never do a thing to help the team

Do they hoard res?
this can be a good thing, but generally, to burn 40 res gorging and dropping two rts or 3 chambers is going to help a lot more than saving to fifty for a fade/hive, as the res you dropped will help others gain the res for the hive.  Chambers keep your team alive longer.  

You see?  Skilled players can be judged many ways, but the way that i judge is the following:

DO they foloow orders?
Do they think of the team, not themsleves (Oh, i am a hgeavy, i dont want to die *cry*)
Do they ask what nededs to be done instead of wandering off and doing whatever?
Heres the clincher-
DO THEY HELP OTHERS WHEN ASKED?


Alright, now, i know i jsut falmed a lot of people with out actually naming them, and flamed many ideas others had, but that wasnt the point.  LM is a very good place, and is ahead in many ways, but a server is only made of people, not rules and regulations.  simply whining does not help.  LEad by example.  If you ofdnt like spawncamping, dont put others in a situation where they could be accused of it.  If you are a fan of teamwork, ask what the team needs, what the stauts is, whatever.  Dont sit and whine aobut things like an old crothcety man
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: a civilian on December 04, 2004, 11:50:20 AM
The argument that spawncamping doesn't help the team is absolutely ridiculous.  Aliens who are distracted in the hive or waiting in the spawn queue cannot fight marines in other areas of the map.  I'm sure you can see how this benefits the team.


Also,
Quote
Do they hoard res?
this can be a good thing, but generally, to burn 40 res gorging and dropping two rts or 3 chambers is going to help a lot more than saving to fifty for a fade/hive, as the res you dropped will help others gain the res for the hive. Chambers keep your team alive longer.
Perhaps, but only if the team already has two or three Fades or players saving for them.  It's pointless to put up a resource chamber if your team lacks the capability to defend it.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Guspaz on December 04, 2004, 08:26:05 PM
Quote
Its like spending 2 hours working so that you can buy that MX1000 mouse,
[snapback]35122[/snapback]

Funny, the MX1000 that I ordered October 16th just arrived yesterday, and I love it :)

Anyhow, on to my post. I'm not counted in the big-anonymous-file (I'm not on IRC all that often right now, I go through periods where I'm on IRC 24/7 for a few weeks or months, then periods where I rarely use it). I don't mind posting my comments without the veil of anonymity.

Point form, because I so love using it:

1) Overall, the server is not going downhill. There are some things that need changing, but that is by no means an indication of it going downhill

2) There have been less players playing on the server recently. One way to solve this is by re-instituting the reserved slot reccomendation forum again. This gave everybody a chance to vote on a potential RS member, instea of the current system where they're just reccomended in a thread and no real vote takes place. The forum was brought back because there were too many RS players; the server was full too often. Well, the server needs more players and more regs, and RS are a great way to build a strong community of regs. It's 10PM on saturday night and the server is only 12/17. It should be full, and more RS players will help with that

3) The administration needs to seriously re-examine their position on combat maps. Right now, it seems the reason they were removed is simply because LB or some other admins don't like them. Honestly, LB rarely plays on the server, and the admins make up only a small portion of the players that play on LM. The reason of any one admin not liking combat should have no bearing at all in any decision regarding combat.

Some of the regs don't like combat either. That's understandable. However, the proof is in the pudding that most people don't mind combat. Take this for example, every time there were, say, 4 or 6 people on the server, and an admin switched to combat, the server filled up quickly. If combat is such a big draw to the server, obviously more people like it than not. I don't like 24/7 combat, but I also enjoy the occasional game of Combat mixed in with normal NS. Look at it this way, LM needs more regs and players, and Combat is a great way to help fill up the server and attract new potential regs.

4) We need votes back in. RS members used to be able to start new votes, to change maps and other minor things on the server. this was working great, but was then removed because people wanted to play Combat, and were voting for combat maps. LB or some other admins don't like combat, so voting was removed. That is frankly stupid logic. Voting helps keep the server fresh when there aren't any admins around, and is nothing but good for the server. Removing voting as it was just harms the community, and there's no reason it should be removed. give the players what they want.

5) Here's my position on the whole script blocking thing. It's simple. I like the block, and would rather scripts were disabled, as there's no legitimate reason to have them. However, it's not a big issue, and I don't really care either way if they're blocked or not. My opinion is that they SHOULD be blocked, but if they are or aren't, meh.

6) Friendly fire is bloody annoying. I know I'm in the minority here, but it just gets in the way and makes the game less fun. It was originally put on to counter bugged handgrenades in combat, ironically enough, but once that bug was fixed was never removed. In fact I seem to recall there having been a poll done where at the time the majority of people wanted FF off, but the admins ignored it. At least that's how I remember it, I could be wrong and the poll could have gone the other way. I can't find it.

7) The spawncamping rules are draconian and need changing. As it stands now, every single game sees players doing something that the rules would call spawncamping, and even the admins in the server break that rule, because of how broad it is. I mean, the rule basically says you can't shoot the enemy in their own base, because you have to be shooting a structure. When nobody follows the rule because of how broad it is, that's a hint. Take the hint. Change the rule. Banning true spawncamping is OK, banning regular gameplay under an uberumbrella definition of spawncamping is NOT OK.

8) I'm going to sum up my entire position by saying this: the administration of the community should not be making decisions based on their personal preferences. They should instead make decisions based on what is best for the community. Things like removing combat to the extend that admins can't even switch to the maps, or removing voteing, that just hurts the community, and is frankly selfish. Admins exist to make sure the players have a good time, not to make sure they have good times themselves. If you don't want to make the sacrifices that come with being an admin, step down and become a regular player.

PS: As an afterthought, I don't give a damn if you as players don't like Combat. If more than half the players on the server at any given time want to play combat, then let them. If you're not on the server, why should you care if it's playing combat? Come to think of it re-adding player/RS initiated voting would fix this right up.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Necrosis on December 04, 2004, 11:06:20 PM
I think you have issues with Combat.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Malevolent on December 04, 2004, 11:25:31 PM
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Its like spending 2 hours working so that you can buy that MX1000 mouse,
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3) The administration needs to seriously re-examine their position on combat maps. Right now, it seems the reason they were removed is simply because LB or some other admins don't like them. Honestly, LB rarely plays on the server, and the admins make up only a small portion of the players that play on LM. The reason of any one admin not liking combat should have no bearing at all in any decision regarding combat.

4) We need votes back in. RS members used to be able to start new votes, to change maps and other minor things on the server. this was working great, but was then removed because people wanted to play Combat, and were voting for combat maps. LB or some other admins don't like combat, so voting was removed. That is frankly stupid logic. Voting helps keep the server fresh when there aren't any admins around, and is nothing but good for the server. Removing voting as it was just harms the community, and there's no reason it should be removed. give the players what they want.
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Server admins have been able to switch to co maps for awhile now. In fact, I did today, when there were only four people on, and it filled up pretty quick. We can start votes to see if people want combat too, so... Oh, and this also means that the maps weren't removed (and they never were). :)
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Dark on December 05, 2004, 08:26:23 AM
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4) We need votes back in. RS members used to be able to start new votes, to change maps and other minor things on the server. this was working great, but was then removed because people wanted to play Combat, and were voting for combat maps. LB or some other admins don't like combat, so voting was removed. That is frankly stupid logic. Voting helps keep the server fresh when there aren't any admins around, and is nothing but good for the server. Removing voting as it was just harms the community, and there's no reason it should be removed. give the players what they want.

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this was removed because too many votes were started by rs members for maps like nancy over and over again not combat and to my knowledge we were never able to start votes for combat.  to be completely honest combat is not as fun as it was assumed it would be when it was announced and the first teaser screenshots appeared.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Crispy on December 05, 2004, 10:13:09 AM
[Taboo]In my opinion spawncamping is perfectly acceptible[/Taboo]

Yeah I know what you're thinking, and I can feel the heat rising with every word I add, but I don't think there's anything wrong with spawncamping.

* Crispy dons flame retardent suit

Almost all forms of spawncamping have a counter either in this or the upcoming version of NS. If a team doesn't or hasn't put that counter into use then they have only themselves to blame for being spawncamped. Some examples:

Skulks on the IP
Commanders really need to learn how to build good bases. Most maps have plenty of space for a Commander to build a base in MS (relocations to key areas of the map have and need their obvious disadvantages). If the Com spaces the IPs out and leaves them far from the CC then either he(/her) or a member of the team coming through an IP has the opportunity to shoot down the spawncamper. Commanders should also be aware of which direction they get into the CC to make sure they exit facing important structures. In the event of a spawncamp the Com should know when to beacon his team in immediately and when to deal with the intruders himself.

Marines spawncamping
I only see this as a problem if it's prolonging the game. Usually if Marines get into an undefended Hive in numbers attacking it in a sensible formation then that Hive is doomed. The only reason spawncamping instead of finishing the Hive quickly is viable is because of RFK. Without this it just wouldn't make sense to spawncamp because any higher lifeforms would have more time (with this Hives extra ability available) to retaliate. Even with RFK this still remains a valid point, as any competant players will make their way back to the Hive to try to take out the Marines, or at least divert enough fire to allow their team to respawn. Seeing as in the upcoming version of NS sieges will no longer do damage to players, not only will Marines have to deal without the additional blast damage of a siege cannon but they'll have a tougher time holding that all-important siege location.

The more reduced examples of spawncamping can easily be countered with a bit of support and teamwork. As such I think the spawncamping rules are pretty mollycoddling. NS gives us guns, claws and teeth and the LM server gives us rules on when to use them... there's something very wrong with that. Obviously there are occasions when spawncamping genuinely ruins the game because it serves no purpose other than humiliation. I personally don't mind the concept of drivebys: if I'm spawning as a skulk and keep getting spawncamped then I'd be getting one of my team to deal with it.

For me the anti-spawncamp rules are geared too much towards the FPS side of the game and forget about legitimate RTS gameplay. Imagine in one of the -Craft games you have found someones outpost and you start attacking. They keep building units to try and counter/rebuild defences but you keep take them out every time they appear... or do you? Maybe there should be a rule where you aren't allowed to kill units less than 5 seconds old, otherwise OMGSPAWNCAMPFTW!!GG!!

In short for me spawncamping, while incredibly frustrating for anyone on the receiving end, is perfectly acceptible. Simply suppressing it is like keeping your kids on baby food because they could choke on anything larger. Life's not always easy, more particularly computer games aren't easy, in fact I hate it when they are. One of the best things about human vs. human games (multiplayer, football, even chess) is that we are adaptible to tough situations. If I had a vote in the matter I'd vote for a severe relaxing of the spawncamping rules, but I don't. What I do have is an opinion, thankyou for hearing it.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: A Boojum Snark on December 05, 2004, 11:17:50 AM
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Seeing as in the upcoming version of NS sieges will no longer do damage to players, not only will Marines have to deal without the additional blast damage of a siege cannon but they'll have a tougher time holding that all-important siege location.
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This annoys me on how many people don't understand what that darned annoucement said. >_<
In b5 sieges do 165 blast damage. This means 165 damage to all players and double that for structures, 330.
In b6 sieges do 330 non-blast damage only to structures. The only change here is they don't hurt players, they still do the same damage to strutures >_<

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Imagine in one of the -Craft games you have found someones outpost and you start attacking. They keep building units to try and counter/rebuild defences but you keep take them out every time they appear... or do you? Maybe there should be a rule where you aren't allowed to kill units less than 5 seconds old, otherwise OMGSPAWNCAMPFTW!!GG!!
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This goes along with what I said in the HL2DM magnum thread. When you are killing NPCs it is completely different from killing a player. An indescript enemy in a single player game has no feelings and no one behind it. Units in a multiplayer RTS, although there is player behind them, are not THE player's unit, as it is in FPS games. If someone "spawncamps" your units being produced you can bring in units from somewhere else. Some games even have the ability to garrison units inside the production facility upon creation, allowing you to build up a number before releasing them. When you have an FPS game where the player only has one unit, and when it is dead there is nothing at all he can do, it becomes annoying and you run into the issue of sportsmanship.
Say your running a race, sure, you could trip the runner next to you right off the line to gain an advantage. But is it good sportsmanship to do so and basicly remove the competition?
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Legionnaired on December 05, 2004, 12:02:44 PM
The problem isn't when a whole team gets in the hive and knocks out the whole team before taking out the hive, the problem comes when one marine puts his back the wall in the hive and kills spawners for several minutes straight.

I do, however, agree that it is perfectly possible to kill that person, getting 2 skulks to rush him while a third respawns.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Necrosis on December 05, 2004, 12:03:08 PM
Second, if someone spawncamps you in an rts, would you not say you find it mildly annoying that he's in the position to end the game but has instead decided to whittle your peon units while he builds a Tactical Fusion Cube/Dreadnought Army/Battlecruiser fleet in order to end the game in a humiliation win?

Wouldn't you rather they just roll in and finish it?


I've said it before, NS is not a game where 2 skilled players camp the hive with med/ammo spam in order to allow the other players to cap every node, get HA, and train into the hive. Yes, it can be done, but its not meant to be done.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Quaunaut on December 05, 2004, 12:07:01 PM
As said, spawncamping can be countered easily, and would help make our players better. While I think llama spawncamping is terrible, legitimate spawncamping in the hopes of building or taking things down I think should be just fine. But at the same time, it seems that many of the admins that DON'T PLAY NS are making these descisions.

...I find that just a tad ironic, myself.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: That Annoying Kid on December 05, 2004, 02:28:59 PM
^^

this thread is like the damn UN, all talk and little to no action.


We either need to break out the umbra spawn, break out the aggressive no shooting inside an active hive or biting an active IP, or get over ourselves.

LB did remove combat from the map cycle, hence we can only get it if an admin votes for it, yes he plays little NS, yes he did make the call

but wait, he pays for the server so I guess we have no choice but to hold or toungues for find somewhere else to play

SPAWNCAMPING has become this big monster, spawncamping used to be shooting someone as they spawn, not running in and out of a hive, not waiting while someone builds something

spawcamping used to be
IF YOU SPAWN, AND YOU GET SHOT WHILE YOU FALL [cause you spawn a litte bit above the ground], YOUR BEING SPAWNCAMED, other than that TLM has taken the definition of spawncamping and ran with it like they are running from the police.

Also since when did this community reform thread become soley about spawncamping?

Can we split the spawncamping discussion into a seperate thread, and then continue discussing other things that were brought up by archi's conversations
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: a civilian on December 05, 2004, 02:46:39 PM
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but wait, he pays for the server so I guess we have no choice but to hold or toungues for find somewhere else to play
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I thought the point of this thread was to find out what people don't like about the server.  Holding our tongues doesn't accomplish anything.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Guspaz on December 05, 2004, 03:08:10 PM
Exactly. I think I was pretty frank in my post what I thought needed to be changed.

Sorry about the misconception that CO was removed entirely; it was in the IRC topic for a bit so I assumed it was still true. However it IS out of the mapcycle entirely, so only admins can change it.

My points on the voting stand; if people were voting for the same maps repeatedly that means they WANT to play that map. Votes are hard enough to get to suceed, most of the players on the server must vote yes for it. Not voting is effectively a vote for no. So if most players do NOT want to play that same map over and over, then they won't. So the only reason I can come up with is that the admins got tired of those maps, and forced their personal preference onto the community. And yes, we used to be able to vote in Combat. Why do you think the server was 24/7 combat for a good time after the release? Because we kept voting in combat maps.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Keyser59 on December 05, 2004, 06:17:15 PM
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Seemingly because that's one of the major issues. I can't see why, a good player is noticeably better when mp_bs is on, and there are plently of servers without BS.

It's not because it makes that one player better, but it makes many of the other players worse.

For instance, I can bunnyhop with +3jump script or mousewheel, favoring the +3jump script because it was more comfortable. Now, with bs_1, many people who only used +3jump scripts can't bhop at all, while I still can with mousewheel. This leaves me at a considerable advantage. I don't really consider either more unfair than the other, since everyone always has access to both (actually, 100% of people can use scripts, while probably slightly less don't have mouse wheels for one reason or another).

Same thing with a pistol script, which I find interfering and unnecessary. I tried a 2 fire script (shoots once on mouse press, second on release) and I end up shooting when I don't want to, and I like to keep the pistol manual because I can fire more accurately and almost hit the cap if the opportunity arises. I think pistol scripts are so cumbersome that they are really not worth learning, and ultimately you'll be benefited more than firing the pistol manually.

I guess personally blockscripts benefit me, but I still think they spread disinformation and rumours that hurt the community in general. Like someone said, the only reason to legitametly block scripts is to get rid of the scripts who exploit engine bugs, like the wiggle-walking scripts or infi-leap scripts (Bunnyhopping is a feature and not an engine bug now by the way).

Considering +3jumps and pistol scripts are the only scripts really being affected, I don't really see a reason to broaden the discussion to other scripts. Unless somebody else wants to bring one up :)
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Dubbilex on December 05, 2004, 08:18:01 PM
Well put, Keyser :)

I guess most who are against scripts would say that the players should be required to bhop manually (rather than skipping the fundamentals and getting a 3-jump script to aid with timing that they normally could not master).  I realize that you, keyser, can bunnyhop with or without a script; this is not the case with the majority of others.  In this way, you are a stronger player than they are because you posess the fundamental skills of the game and as such, truly use the scripts for convenience (for without them you are just at strong).

However there are other players who download 3-jump scripts because they are unable to bunnyhop "cleanly," if you will.  Realize this: using a 3-jump script I am able to bunnyhop arguably well but without one can barely even gain speed.  I am an example of a player who would be using a script to compensate for my lack of coordination and, arguably, game skill.  I am against 'exploiting' scripts in such a way, and as a result use no scripts.

Obviously there is no way to separate these two types of player from each other, so this is a viciously unceasing argument.  THERE IS NO ANSWER.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Crispy on December 06, 2004, 08:47:38 AM
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Seeing as in the upcoming version of NS sieges will no longer do damage to players, not only will Marines have to deal without the additional blast damage of a siege cannon [Ed - as in on players when assaulting a Hive] but they'll have a tougher time holding that all-important siege location.

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This annoys me on how many people don't understand what that darned annoucement said. >_<
In b5 sieges do 165 blast damage. This means 165 damage to all players and double that for structures, 330.
In b6 sieges do 330 non-blast damage only to structures. The only change here is they don't hurt players, they still do the same damage to strutures >_<
What? Where exactly did I say or imply that? Oh right nowhere. OK  <_<

To clarify my point I was saying that Marines won't have the benefit of the Sieges virtually insta-killing Skulks who respawn and higher lifeforms who retreat to the Hive to heal up. Thanks for 'correcting' me though.

As for the -Craft example, I actually knew it was flawed befor I put it in and wanted to see how quickly someone jumped on it (pretty quickly eh?). What I will do is repeat and elaborate on what I said earlier. NS gives us guns, claws and two teams fighting for their very existance (as described in the backstory) and we're supposed to play fair. Yes, I do understand that it's not nice to waste people's time but I think spawncamping's fine as long as you're doing it to gain some advantage (be it time, resources, even morale). In my eyes spawncamping is only wrong if it's used for humiliation tactics. I like the way the server tries to split the better players between the teams, it's a really good measure that benefits every player. What doesn't benefit every player is asking the better or more experienced players to restrict their more 'agressive' tactics to suit a more nub style of play (just an opinion, possibly not shared by many).

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Second, if someone spawncamps you in an rts, would you not say you find it mildly annoying that he's in the position to end the game but has instead decided to whittle your peon units while he builds a Tactical Fusion Cube/Dreadnought Army/Battlecruiser fleet in order to end the game in a humiliation win?
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Imagine in one of the -Craft games you have found someones outpost [Ed - as in one of their outposts, not their main base] and you start attacking

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this thread is like the damn UN, all talk and little to no action.
Maybe because this thread is for non-admins and because an in-depth discussion is usually the best way to find a solution?
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Also since when did this community reform thread become soley about spawncamping?
Page 4, when Kodiac said this:
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[...]They worked as a group of individuals, and that leads to spawncamping[...]
also three posts previous to that Sydney Carton mentioned it indirectly. It is relevant because one of the reasons people don't want to reg on LM is the nature of its spawncamping rules.

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It's not because it makes that one player better, but it makes many of the other players worse.
If this and the following supporting argument are to be believed then LM is both promoting skill but also "castrating" it at the same time. Maybe this element of confusion could have something to do with why 'skilled' players don't/can't play here.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: rad4Christ on December 06, 2004, 09:20:57 AM
It's my impression that MP_BS will always remain 1. If you want to discuss and inform the community on the legitimacy of certain scripts, by all means go ahead. I do agree with Keyser and the rest, certain scripts are absolutely harmless. But I still want BS set on 1. Why? Personal preference. I mean, that's what draws you to a server and keeps you there. Personal preference. And the personal preference at the servers management level is MP_BS 1. Just because players want to change it, does not mean LB has to. If you take issue, there are quite a few communities with BS 0 on them. I'm not trying to sound harsh, but you can't come into a community, and try to change the community to your personal preferences. You have to concede from time to time. I don't really care for the spawncamping rule mumbo jumbo, but I abide by it.

Why do I say this? Because I've said it, TAK has said it, and plenty of us are thinking it. if you want to discuss spawncamping or MP_BS, create another thread. This one is a GENERAL thread about things that the community needs to work on. So far, we back into the same old arguments, and I'm sorry, but we need to find adequate concessions to make these persistent issues come to a resolve, and we need to do it in another thread. Keep this one to the issues raised by Archi and his work, is the community dying?What is TLM known as in the wider community. What can we do to bring in fresh players and regs, not being biased to one skill level or another? Should we unban certain individuals that have broken the rules in the past and offer a clean slate? What can our admins/server do to communicate the rules in a clearer, concise way to ensure people understand and follow them?
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Legionnaired on December 06, 2004, 09:26:59 AM
Some sort of amnesty program for lesser vioaltions might be cool...
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Crispy on December 06, 2004, 10:01:19 AM
How are these points (mp_bs 1/0, spawncamping kicks/bans and their rules) not valid? They clearly shape the number of and type of players you're going to get on LM. I'm not trying to insist on anything. At the end of the day I don't pay for the server, I'm not an admin and I'm not even a regular so I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me. I have a point of view on the matter, perhaps it's relevant or has merit, I obviously think so but I'm not asking anyone to change their beliefs. However there is the chance that LB might consider certain changes to enhance the gameplay on his NS server, and it's for this reason that I'm posting.

Scripts and spawncamping can be resolved by the server administration, it's how it is done that affects the community type and size. These are problems that affect the server, these are controllable by the admins and this is the place to discuss such matters as they fall into this category:
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What can we do to bring in fresh players and regs, not being biased to one skill level or another?
At the end of the day LB will make the decision. I think if he has already made his mind up (in light of this thread) about certain issues then he should post his decisions here so that the discussion can focus on the other areas affecting the LM community.

[Edit] r4d has a really annoying name to quote if you try and include the clan tag :rolleyes:
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: MrGunner on December 06, 2004, 10:37:21 AM
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This one is a GENERAL thread about things that the community needs to work on.

-Not banning everyone for breaking rules that you just made up on a whim.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: rad4Christ on December 06, 2004, 11:38:34 AM
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How are these points (mp_bs 1/0, spawncamping kicks/bans and their rules) not valid?

I'm not saying they aren't valid, but I think big issues like this should be directed in to threads about them, or create a new one, not take this thread solely into a discussion of a specific issue. Forgive me, although there are thread about this issue, they are in a restricted forum, so I recommend you guys start one dealing with the specific issue in mind.
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-Not banning everyone for breaking rules that you just made up on a whim.

I should hope that's not directed at me, since i haven't banned anyone yet...


Usually, the bans I've seen that are questionable in nature are ones where the admin has applied the NO LLAMA rule or one that leads to a bit of interpretation. The reason people claim it was made up is 1. The admin might not have publically made the statement it is not allowed, or otherwise explained what happened, or 2: There was a disagreement between the player and the admin about the application of a certain rule (i.e. spawncamping), in which case the admin wins. If the player banned disagrees, that's what the PR forum is for. If a player disagrees, bring it to IRC, or email servers@lunixmonster.org
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Malevolent on December 06, 2004, 11:45:11 AM
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Usually, the bans I've seen that are questionable in nature are ones where the admin has applied the NO LLAMA rule or one that leads to a bit of interpretation. The reason people claim it was made up is 1. The admin might not have publically made the statement it is not allowed, or otherwise explained what happened, or 2: There was a disagreement between the player and the admin about the application of a certain rule (i.e. spawncamping), in which case the admin wins. If the player banned disagrees, that's what the PR forum is for. If a player disagrees, bring it to IRC, or email servers@lunixmonster.org
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Yes, that is exactly what happens sometimes. If the player wants to know what he did wrong, go the PR forums (although they should know already; if they don't know, they should have read the rules; and it's not like this sever's rules aren't well-known after all these debates, etc.). Don't go onto IRC to discuss it; go to the Public Relations forum. We do not want a debate over a ban in IRC please (it's meant to be a laid back place).
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: That Annoying Kid on December 06, 2004, 11:47:35 AM
In fewpids poll frowning upon hardcore *llama* spawncamping is beating leave it as it is by a little more than half.

TLM has kinda drifted from protecting against spawncamping that frusturates and angers to making players hesitant about entering hive areas. Also I see alot of this talk directed towards aliens being spawncamped, but for aliens to attack the marine spawns they have to bite the exact area the rines come from. Granted one could easily learn the spawn points and pattern of a hive, but I see suprisingly little talk directed towards the other side of the spawncamp spectrum.

[edit]
hafhafhaf nub part removed
[/edit]
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Necrosis on December 06, 2004, 11:48:02 AM
How do we get more people? Word of mouth, and sticking to our guns. Most people become pretty aware of LMs rules in a short space of time, certainly people on the NS.org forums are keen to point them out.


On the amnesty point, the problem there is that who defines what a minor infraction is? If a definition is made, then what about the outcry from the people in the middle ground? And the inevitable cry of "server's dying, so they're clearing their bans". Its a self defeating procedure imho.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: A Boojum Snark on December 06, 2004, 02:00:31 PM
Quote
Quote
Seeing as in the upcoming version of NS sieges will no longer do damage to players, not only will Marines have to deal without the additional blast damage of a siege cannon [Ed - as in on players when assaulting a Hive] but they'll have a tougher time holding that all-important siege location.

Quote
This annoys me on how many people don't understand what that darned annoucement said. >_<
In b5 sieges do 165 blast damage. This means 165 damage to all players and double that for structures, 330.
In b6 sieges do 330 non-blast damage only to structures. The only change here is they don't hurt players, they still do the same damage to strutures >_<
What? Where exactly did I say or imply that? Oh right nowhere. OK  <_<
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As you indicated in the quote of yourself you were referring the damage done to players. However I read "Marines have to deal without the additional blast damage of a siege cannon" as referring to the damage being reduced because they don't do "blast damage".
It was simply my misunderstanding because you used a term which refers to a damage class, and coupled with the many times I've read people complaining because they thought siege damage was being reduced. So I guess my new point is be careful with the terms you use :p

*A Boojum Snark exits thread stage-left never to return
(why did I ever post >_> I hate getting into threads like these)
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: TheAdj on December 06, 2004, 04:05:39 PM
Archi told me to add my points here since I wasn't talked to for the large text file.  I see several issues with LM, the main one of which is unilateral decisions and interpretations of rules by certain admins.  Many of the admins are quite fine, and I have no problems with strict rules, even if I find them ridiculous (I'll clearly state my opinion, doesn't mean I won't follow them to the best of my abilities).  The problem is when an admin takes a disliking to someone or a group of people and singles them out for speccing, harassing, and eventually kicking/banning.  I pubbed on LM for about 3 months using a smurf name and auth disabled, and not ONCE was I ever spoken to by an admin for anything I was doing.  I played just like I always do, except my name was different.  The first time I pubbed on LM with my normal name and my exigent tag on, I got harassed.  I didn't even have a vet icon, I had a consti, and people still bothered me.  Then I got a Guide icon, and I still got harassed.  Then I got a PT icon, and it really got poured on.  Here's an example of a game that lead up to my thread in the PR Forum.

Small 10-14 player game on ns_veil, I'm on Marines.  Good commander in the chair, obviously either a pub allstar or a competitive player smurfing, he's giving me meds and stuff as I need them.  I have text binds enabled so that when I hit keys that give impulses, they put text on the screen so the commander understands me.  My mic cable was severed (gg steel case door) so I was micless and unable to verbally communicate.  As the comm told me to do something I would hit my "Ackowledged" key which put ((.Yes/Ok/Thanks.)) on the screen.  I did not spam the key, I only used it in direct response to my commander's questions or orders.  Ammo/Meds/Orders also had the same layout as the previous bind.  Throughout a 15 minute game I used all of them a total of maybe 20 times.  About 6-7 minutes in I see a warning on the screen from Lightning_Blue that says "no spamming".  I had multiple teammates muted, so I simply assumed some of them were incessantly yapping, which is why I had them muted in the first place.  Nowhere was I named specifically.  Pipeline hive starts going up, and the comm dropped me a JP/Shotty and sent me in there.  I kill a fade on the way and several skulks, then get to the hive and meet another fade.  I had 9 shells total at this point and 80 HP, so I called for ammo and a med.  I get kicked halfway through soloing the hive with a message of "Text Spamming".  I rejoin, am forced on aliens because of teams, and have to now turn the game back around.  I apologize to the commander because I know that just threw the game, and he quits well before the game is over, most likely in frustration.  The game ends and the map changes to Ayumi.  The server was nearly full at one point, but once people started getting kicked it slowly lost players until we were around 10 at the mapchange.

Next game Vinnie is on the server speccing while lb is playing aliens.  I'm on marines, starting hive is Pressure (top of the map) on ns_ayumi.  A couple minutes into the game lb slays the entire team for spawncamping when the commander drops an armory at the pressure rt and exlicitely tells us on voicecomm "hurry up and build so I can drop shotties, hit the RT".  The RT I was building isnt' completed when I die, and is destroyed before I can get back.  We also lost 2 other RTs once the marines that were pushing ahead of them were slain.  Once Hamasaki is going up we get a PG up nearby and push in with Shotties and possibly a HMG (I really don't remember, I had a shotty which is why I knew some were out).  I pushed into ham and killed probably 2-3 skulks on the way.  I killed lb just outside the hiveroom itself, and pushed in to nail a gorge I heard.  As I was shooting the gorge I suddenly got kicked out of the game.  No reason was given.  I post on the PR Forums, I get magically unbanned but no reason was ever given.  

Things like this should not happen.  While LB does operate the server and makes the rules, you can't just randomly enforce your will like that and expect people to accept it and deal with it.  I've talked to multiple regulars, res slotters, and even admins who  don't like to play with LB on the server.  When you slay random players or even teams, TK them, and make the game not fun for others, who wants to stick around.  I remember the time I was banned for "pancaking" (lol) he slew the entire marine team multiple times and TK'd most of the game.  Do you really think that's fun for the other marines?  I refreshed the server the next game and it had like 10 people on, and by the time I was unbanned the server was empty.  I guess everyone enjoys being slain repeatedly during a game.  Kicking people for inane things like "text spam" (Which is most certainly was not) will make people not want to play on LM.  Taking Necrosis' normal "You don't have to play here" argument into consideration, he's 100% right.  I don't have to play on LM, and neither does anyone else.  That's the point, plenty of people are saying enough is enough and just not playing at all, or at least not playing when certain admins/res slotters/regulars are on.  Personal ideas, past grudges or experience, all that shouldn't factor into admin decisions.  The rules and the spirit of them are what should be used.  If someone is being a wanker, take care of them.  Kicking people using ill-defined or non-existent rules is preposterous and will cause people tired of the bull^^ to stop playing.  Saying "We don't ban for skill" then kicking people who are skilled for other ill-given reasons is the same as banning them for skill, you're simply doing it by proxy.  If I were a poor lerk would I have been banned for pancaking, an exploit that rests on technicalities in Beta5 (BTW, I did the work to help test and give ideas on the lerk flight mechanics, you'll see some of my handiwork in Beta6.  Rest assured that I'm not all Pro-Lerk exploits)?  I most certainly would not have been.  Would Lerklift still be on the server if I didn't fly around like a gork of doom with fatty for a couple of days last month?  It most certainly would be.  You can't say one thing and actually do another, actions speak far louder than words.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: TheAdj on December 06, 2004, 04:26:13 PM
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Second, if someone spawncamps you in an rts, would you not say you find it mildly annoying that he's in the position to end the game but has instead decided to whittle your peon units while he builds a Tactical Fusion Cube/Dreadnought Army/Battlecruiser fleet in order to end the game in a humiliation win?

Wouldn't you rather they just roll in and finish it?


I've said it before, NS is not a game where 2 skilled players camp the hive with med/ammo spam in order to allow the other players to cap every node, get HA, and train into the hive. Yes, it can be done, but its not meant to be done.
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Team Starcraft games often devolve to this:  You mass units with teammates and focus on one enemy player.  You blow through easy defenses and bypass anything else, get straight to his peon line, and wipe it out, preferrably while killing the central structure (Hive, CC, Nexus).  This slows them down significantly, if not putting them out of the game.  In NS this translates into 2 things:  Hitting RTs or cutting a hive down in fast fashion.  The way the spawncamping rules are set up you can be banned for doing either or these.  I completely ignore built hives as a marine on LM because I know some admin who doesn't like me much will take notice and relieve me of my slot on the server, even if I'm not doing anything.  

The last time I checked NS is a RTS based game played out with FPS units, it still has strategy involved.  Completely cutting off the enemy team's resflow is catastrohpic to their morale and their ability to wage war, and constant base pressure is a classic RTS strategy to prevent expansion and prevent attacks.  If you remove that suddenly aliens have a free space that they can be in and expect little to no retaliation.  So what you're starting to do is limit the marine team's options even more than they are already limited.  

A spawncamp just to delay the game is ridiculous (when it's clearly over and they simply won't kill the hive when they have the ability to do so) and should be punished.  A spawncamp with an objective in mind that help's secure a marine team victory should not be punished by server admins.  Often spawncamps delay the alien team so more marines can arrive, or so they can complete an objective.  Aliens can hit marine start and force the marine team to either come back to base or beacon, why can't marines do the same?  It's a tactic that while annoying to the person being spawncamped, will 1) Teach them the importance of scouting out and preventing people from reaching the hive to begin with (critical for stopping shotgun rushes) and 2) Make people think of the big picture of how the game is going, and what they should be doing to help the team.  Keeping marines from going into the hiveroom enforces poor gameplay in this way.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: MrGunner on December 06, 2004, 05:01:25 PM
I agree with all that Adj says.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Quaunaut on December 06, 2004, 05:08:31 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Guspaz on December 06, 2004, 05:10:24 PM
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rad4Christ,Dec 6 2004, 04:20 PM]It's my impression that MP_BS will always remain 1. If you want to discuss and inform the community on the legitimacy of certain scripts, by all means go ahead. I do agree with Keyser and the rest, certain scripts are absolutely harmless. But I still want BS set on 1. Why? Personal preference. I mean, that's what draws you to a server and keeps you there. Personal preference. And the personal preference at the servers management level is MP_BS 1. Just because players want to change it, does not mean LB has to. If you take issue, there are quite a few communities with BS 0 on them. I'm not trying to sound harsh, but you can't come into a community, and try to change the community to your personal preferences. You have to concede from time to time. I don't really care for the spawncamping rule mumbo jumbo, but I abide by it.

Why do I say this? Because I've said it, TAK has said it, and plenty of us are thinking it. if you want to discuss spawncamping or MP_BS, create another thread. This one is a GENERAL thread about things that the community needs to work on. So far, we back into the same old arguments, and I'm sorry, but we need to find adequate concessions to make these persistent issues come to a resolve, and we need to do it in another thread. Keep this one to the issues raised by Archi and his work, is the community dying?What is TLM known as in the wider community. What can we do to bring in fresh players and regs, not being biased to one skill level or another? Should we unban certain individuals that have broken the rules in the past and offer a clean slate? What can our admins/server do to communicate the rules in a clearer, concise way to ensure people understand and follow them?
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Your very argument there is right on the topic that I brought up earlier...

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Why? Personal preference. I mean, that's what draws you to a server and keeps you there. Personal preference. And the personal preference at the servers management level is MP_BS 1. Just because players want to change it, does not mean LB has to.
This attitude will kill the community. Admins should not HAVE a personal preference, and if they do, nothing should come of it!

You know what? As I mentioned earlier, I want mp_bs 1. But if the only reason that it is 1 is because of the admin's preferences, then a poll needs to be done, and the setting changed or not changed based on THAT. You said it yourself, this is a COMMUNITY. The admins doing things like this because of how they like it doesn't fit in with a community.

I'm going to reiterate it; being an admin means sacrifices, one of those is you might have to do things or put up with things you don't enjoy, if it's the will of the greater community.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Legionnaired on December 06, 2004, 05:59:15 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with the last 4 posts.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Keyser59 on December 06, 2004, 06:38:16 PM
Okay, I guess it's my turn to air a little dirty laundry now.

As some of you may or may not know, I was banned four seperate times here, each for reasons which I thought were a bit laughable.

First time I got banned was for "hacking". I was smurfing and the entire alien team thought I was cheating so I got banned right away. No problem, I posted in the unban forums and got unbanned when they realized it was me.

Second time I got banned was for "lying". LB asked me if we had motion tracking, I said no (we didn't), 6-10 minutes later he joined our team and saw we did and I got banned. I think it was for a few days.

Third time I got banned was for "bad attitude". I remember when the admins llamaed a few players and proceeded to make fun of him. I said something to the extent of "just kick him, humiliating is bad form".  U235 said that scored a few negative points in the admins book. Other than that I wasn't really given any reason, but I guessed it was because I rarely chatted in game, and people thought I was anti-social or ignoring them or something. I also yelled at my marines when I commanded, but I thought that was generally accepted.

Final ban was for "spawncamping". If you watch the demo of me now, then yes, it is breaking the rules. But the funny thing was, the rules were updated right after my ban from "spawncamping" to "shooting anything in the hive" (technically, the skulks were out of the hive when they were rushing me anyways, but meh). At that time everyone was a little edgy about spawncamping so I made extra sure I wasn't, but mehx2.

I was banned for four totally seperate things on four seperate occasions, which is a bit curious. You'd think there would be some kind of pattern to my bad behaviour instead of violating each rule once.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Isamil on December 06, 2004, 07:06:39 PM
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I agree with all that Adj says.
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Same, expect I still think that spawncamping in general is just not fun, and shouldn't be allowed.  However, spawncamping while you're building seiges or something?  Fine in my book.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: TheAdj on December 06, 2004, 07:10:51 PM
"Not being fun" doesn't disqualify something from being effective and a valid tactic.  I bet many people would say it's not fun to face me as lerk but that doesn't mean I should be banned from lerking, does it?  Of course not, which is why "not being fun" shouldn't be an automatic reason to ban spawncamping.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Keyser59 on December 06, 2004, 07:16:44 PM
Dying isn't fun for me, the rules need to reflect that.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Necrosis on December 06, 2004, 07:48:31 PM
I like it that Adj mentions my "don't like it, don't play" philosophy, because its a swift way of showing distaste for a server's rules. No polling, no questionnaire, just looking at the logs and seeing who left and when.


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Saying "We don't ban for skill" then kicking people who are skilled for other ill-given reasons is the same as banning them for skill, you're simply doing it by proxy.

I don't think player skill should be a mystical shield of ban protection. If someone is being a tard, they're being a tard, and should get the same punishment. Hell, in my pov better players should be punished harder purely because they should know better. If I screw up in a game, there's no chance of me saying "oh I'm new" or "my finger slipped" because noone would buy it. Forgiving of the newbs, exacting of the educated. Furthermore, if someone can't understand the "no advertising" rule then tbh can you trust them with any other rule? Rulebreaking is rulebreaking, no reason why some should be special cases. If I was #Nec.Rosis then I'd drop the # because its part of the server rules. Its easy as that.


Gorks were overpowered, got removed. Pancaking is seen to be an exploit, so its frowned upon. A good player can cope with these changes from server to server. Its no different in any other game where different servers might be running FFA, or TEAM DM, or OBJECTIVE play... you change your style for each game. NS is no different - you play as mercenary as you like on some servers, and on other servers you have to follow someone else's concept of "fair play". Yes, an experienced player knows how to pancake, but they can also read "no pancaking" and act on that instruction. Its not a matter of being out to get anyone, its a matter of the concept of "fair play". Also in this category are such things as structure blocking.

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Hitting RTs or cutting a hive down in fast fashion. The way the spawncamping rules are set up you can be banned for doing either or these.

Not by my reading, but perhaps I'm wrong? If you and your team rush a hive and drop all the skulks, then you're not likely to be spawncamping - its called endgame rush. If you sit in the hive entrance and pick off spawners... its hardly a rush.

Again, its like the difference between smashing peons en route to base, or smashing peons, setting up walls and turrets around their base, building up a pile of res, then finally after an hour doing something silly like trying to get 100 cruisers just to take out a cc.

I completely ignore built hives, but thats only because I can't take them down without help from the comm. Conveniently, I also think thats how NS is meant to be played. If I was a really really good NS player (ie someone finally gave me my beloved GL for once) then I'd avoid the hive because vs spawning skulks I'd have a hideous and unfair advantage. Its also the same reason I avoid the noob servers I started my gaming career on - its just not fun to beat someone who's incapable of beating you.



I agree with some of what Adj says, in that there should be a way to tactically stall the enemy - but imho thats what nodes are for. Camping the enemy base should NOT be considered a viable and fair tactic for this. I can agree that its weight against marines, but thats largely because (imho) marines have ranged weaponry and can camp in cosy little holes. Aliens HAVE to get into CC, which carries with it the risk of a telefrag, the fact you can only bite one person at a time, etc etc. An alien rushing MS gets a few bites in, maybe kills a rine, the comm hits beacon. Exception being the devour ip camper onos - he can sit there all day doing it.

A marine rushes the hive, shoots a few skulks, shoots a few more, gets some ammo and meds, rinses and repeats. For a rapid alien response, you're talking MC everywhere. Not likely.

Its not so much about "keeping marines from going into the hiveroom" but more "keeping one marine from systematically picking off spawning players before they react, without a view to ending the game"

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Admins should not HAVE a personal preference, and if they do, nothing should come of it!

Isnt that the point of running your own game? I mean, you choose the variables and switches YOU like? If it was purely about "running a popular game" then we'd be flooded by plugins and all sorts of tosh. If it was about "being fair to the playing public" then you might as well take NS off and put up X Wing vs TIE Fighter or X Wing Alliance, since they're virtually extinct now. Maybe I'm odd in my opinions, but seriously, isnt the point of your own server being the right to enforce whatever game conditions you enjoy?

The democratic process of real life revolves around the fact that YOU pay taxes, YOU vote for the leaders, and in return those leaders are obliged to keep YOU happy.

In the internet, you don't pay taxes to the leaders, you don't vote for them, and in return they're not obliged to keep you happy. Otherwise the path leads to madness, and you have people begging for Rome: Total War to be a football soccer sim with lasers. They can listen a bit if they want to, but noone is OBLIGED to, by any means.


On the other note, I myself have been banned and kicked from other games for exploiting/hacking/aimbotting/using the Hand of God, and I was banned from using my favourite tabletop army in my local store because I simply could not be beaten. I feel the pain of people who face hackusations. I think they're silly too, but come on, everyone faces hackusations, its part and parcel of online gaming.

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"Not being fun" doesn't disqualify something from being effective and a valid tactic

UNDERSTAND the difference between the rules of a game, and the spirit of a game. Unplugging someone's pc is an effective and valid tactic of defeating them at a pc game. Getting up from your chair at a LAN and shooting your opponent IRL is again a very effective way of ensuring your victory. Are either fun for the opponent? No. Are they how the game was meant to be played? Not likely.

Again, coming onto a privately run server, you accept that you have to follow someone else's concept of fair play. If you find their concept of fair play to be limiting and dull, then exercise free will and play elsewhere.

If you look at a rule and think "I better not do this" then you're in the right frame of mind to play on someone's server.

If you look at a rule and think "Ok its legal then as long as I don't do this" then you're really not in the right frame of mind to play on someone's server.

Rules are there to attempt to explain the spirit of the game. They're not there so that a player can find loopholes or follow the "letter" of the rules but avoiding the "spirit" of the rules.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: MrGunner on December 06, 2004, 08:38:53 PM
Server rules has nothing to do with the fact that the # has been part of the #cri tag since 1.04.  It has nothing to do with advertising.  The only reason that this is a problem on the server is because of the admins dislike of us.  I mean how abot we have a rule that says that everyone has to play as NSplayer on the server.  Gee that would be so much fun.

Oh yeah and as for pancaking it was exploitive back when there was no energy cap and lerks could do it all damn day but nowadays if a lerk wants to not run out of energy the only time they will do this is when they are fleeing.  Plus the server runs mp_bs1 so it's not like people can use 3jumps scripts to spam it, and mousewheel spamming as lerk is ^^ty.  Plus most good lerks don't pancake that much anyway.  Adj just sucks.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Keyser59 on December 06, 2004, 08:39:29 PM
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If you look at a rule and think "Ok its legal then as long as I don't do this" then you're really not in the right frame of mind to play on someone's server.

The problem with LM is that you have to think like this, or you will get banned. Adj got banned for playing lerk like he usually does. Believe me there is a fair amount of up and down movement in regular lerk play, you have to constantly think to yourself "oh crap I exceeded the speed cap on the lerk in the vertical direction I better tone it down or I'll get banned" or "oh crap I just killed that skulk in the hive I better step back a few feet or I'll get banned" or "oh crap I just hit that medpack bind 3 times in the last minute that was a bit excessive I better stop or I'll get banned".

That's the main dissatisfaction I'm seeing others exhibit in general.

EDIT: These are all perfectly acceptable on any other server, so if you don't know the "letter" of the law as necrosis said, you stand a good chance of being banned.

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UNDERSTAND the difference between the rules of a game, and the spirit of a game. Unplugging someone's pc is an effective and valid tactic of defeating them at a pc game. Getting up from your chair at a LAN and shooting your opponent IRL is again a very effective way of ensuring your victory. Are either fun for the opponent? No. Are they how the game was meant to be played? Not likely.

I think anyone here realizes that we are talking about something within the confines of a game here. Those examples are meaningless. Please give something more realistic.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: TheAdj on December 06, 2004, 09:56:46 PM
You know Necrosis you're always quick to say "You need to understand this" and talk about something.  Well understand this:  Owning a server does not give you the ability to treat the people like trash, nor does adminning it.  When you have a community like LM does, the community at large should decide how things are run and the rules, it's not up the an admin's whim to decide what is good and what is evil.  Poor accountability leads to corruption and inefficiency, and that's what's happening here.  People feel like they can kick whoever they want just because of something they don't like.  

Being a good player isn't a shield.  My point is that people are being singled out for punishment BECAUSE they are good players, and since no one is "banned for skill" most aren't outright banned, an admin nitpicks and finds a reason to do so eventually.  I wasn't pancaking when I was banned, I was simply decimating the entire marine team because literally 2 people on the team could track a skulk, much less a celerity lerk.  "OH NOES PANCAKING LERK, HE MUST BE PANCAKING TO KILL THAT MANY MARINES", banned.  If you're going to ban for skill just do it and put that as the reason, don't ban people and give some lame excuse.  Be held responsible for your actions, state why someone was banned with pride, because as a good community oriented admin, you should want everyone to know why someone is banned, so that it reinforces what is desired and what isn't on the server.  Don't ban someone then use the silent treatment to cover up why you banned someone.  

When you're just running a server with yourself and a few others as admins, sure it's fine to run the server as you want to.  But when there's a large community on a server and supporting it, it's generally in the bests interests of those running the server to listen to the community.  Every single time you talk about this you use outlandish examples that are similar to the scum in the ns.org I&S forums.  "OGM LASER GUNS AND BUGGIES WITH SIEGE CANNONS LOLOLO", same garbage examples that you're using.  When there is large community support for something that isn't outrageous or not within the scope of the community's design, it's probably a good idea to listen and at least understand why they want something done or undone.

In your reply you state that nodes should be used to delay the other team.  How is killing the alien's hive node not using nodes to delay them?  They spawn, they try to kill you, you kill them, you kill the RT, it's that simple.  The point is this:  Aliens should be keeping marines out of the hive, allowing them in is a grave decision to make, since they can not only spawncamp, but destroy the RT and possibly the hive itself given time.  You as 1 marine can probably slow the aliens down with your mere prescence near the hive.  If aliens are dumb enough to rush at you 1 by 1, then they really do truly deserve to lose.  

Necrosis you're something called a Yes Man.  You sit behind the de facto standard, the status quo, and simply reinforce it by repeating the same thing over and over again without really saying anything.  Simply going along with what other people do without asking questions or attempting to alter something you think is wrong is how the most horrible things in the history of the world have occurred, while some of the best and most epic feats in history have occurred because some had the want to ask "Why?" instead of just going along with it.  Which ideology do you think is more effective in advancing whatever it's used in?  If you think stagnation and acquiescing to other's demands is progress, then I guess your way wins 100%.  In reality, asking questions and refusing to accept things simply because they're put to you as law is a far superiour method of improvement.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Isamil on December 07, 2004, 04:08:53 AM
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"Not being fun" doesn't disqualify something from being effective and a valid tactic.  I bet many people would say it's not fun to face me as lerk but that doesn't mean I should be banned from lerking, does it?  Of course not, which is why "not being fun" shouldn't be an automatic reason to ban spawncamping.
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Facing you as a lerk is fun Adj because theres always the chance we might kill you, or you might make a mistake.
If someone is sitting in a hive, memorized the spawnpoints, you can't really expect individual skulks to do anything.  On a pub you really can't expect amazing groupwork to stop this.  True, if it happens that all the aliens were dead and therefore they couldn't reinforce their hive, then they're kind of screwed anyway.  Its just not fun and very iritating to be spawncamped, and theres often nothing you can really do about it.

I think the spawncamping rules are a bit to tight, heres what I think they should be.

No spawncamping just to prolong the game.
No spawncamping if you don't have an objective in the hive that you can resonably expect to take out quickly(One marine trying to kill the hive RT, I don't see that as expecting to finish that quickly)
If you're doing something such as building seiges, or a PG, spawncamping is fine as long as you actuly build the seiges, PG, etc.
Running through the hive and killing skulks while you're there is fine, as long as you don't spend an exceptionally long ammount of time in there(Like, running through and stopping in the middle of the hive while running in circles slowly moving to the other side) and as long as you don't double back to the hive.

Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Guest Bacon on December 07, 2004, 06:31:20 AM
-Allow spawn camping
-If the game is clearly lost, and the other team is spawn camping just to prolong it...do what the SC/Chess/etc pros do... F4. Its a clear loss. Give up. Start anew, and learn what you did wrong last time. The answer to your problems is so rediculously simple.

There is no "honor" in sitting in the spawn queue for 20mins.


(yes, there is an F4 button in chess...look harder.)
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: lolfighter on December 07, 2004, 06:58:29 AM
Well, Necrosis may be a yes man, but at least he realises the situation he is in. In a modern democracy, we take right of speech as a given, for example. In here it is a privilege that I can wantonly remove if I feel like it, and there won't be a damn thing you can do about it. Good luck finding a court that won't laugh you out, and nothing short of a court ruling can take power away from those that own the server (LB) and those that he gives power to. The very fact that I have not banned you from the forums for spoiling my good mood all the time with these inane debates makes me a good admin, at least in that sense. I'm not beyond a little bragging as far as this goes. I can be a bad admin if you will. I don't have any particular desire to be so, but I know the procedure.

You don't go into your friend's house and start mouthing off at his wallpaper and carpet, his horrible choice of furniture, the poor lighting and that he never cleans up. Well maybe you do, but if he doesn't want your opinion, he'll tell you to shut up. And what do you do then? Either you keep mouthing off until he throws you out, and it's likely that you'll cease being friends at that point. Or you accept the situation as it is, and either stay and deal with it or leave.

If you decide to leave, though, you're doing nobody a favour by standing just outside the door yelling to him why you're never coming back and so is no-one else and you don't care if he throws you out because you were leaving anyway right after shouting at him some more oh and his girlfriend is ugly too.

Necrosis is right insofar as he realizes this premise. He can make suggestions, and the host can heed or ignore them. He can leave at any time he wishes if he no longer likes the party, but he doesn't have the right to enforce his will over that of the host.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Plaguebearer on December 07, 2004, 07:17:50 AM
I was just thinking... isn't the way the spawncamping rule is set up now partly responsible for the slightly accelerated early alien game?  

Since marine players are afraid to go near the hive for fear of being spawncamper-banned, thee's no need for  the alien team to bother with such things as, say, defending the hive.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: MrGunner on December 07, 2004, 07:36:03 AM
How about instead of trying to fix the problem you just say that we're lucky that you haven't banned us from the forums also, and that not doing that makes you some kind of "good" admin.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Legionnaired on December 07, 2004, 07:36:27 AM
Quote
Well, Necrosis may be a yes man, but at least he realises the situation he is in. In a modern democracy, we take right of speech as a given, for example. In here it is a privilege that I can wantonly remove if I feel like it, and there won't be a damn thing you can do about it. Good luck finding a court that won't laugh you out, and nothing short of a court ruling can take power away from those that own the server (LB) and those that he gives power to. The very fact that I have not banned you from the forums for spoiling my good mood all the time with these inane debates makes me a good admin, at least in that sense. I'm not beyond a little bragging as far as this goes. I can be a bad admin if you will. I don't have any particular desire to be so, but I know the procedure.

You don't go into your friend's house and start mouthing off at his wallpaper and carpet, his horrible choice of furniture, the poor lighting and that he never cleans up. Well maybe you do, but if he doesn't want your opinion, he'll tell you to shut up. And what do you do then? Either you keep mouthing off until he throws you out, and it's likely that you'll cease being friends at that point. Or you accept the situation as it is, and either stay and deal with it or leave.

If you decide to leave, though, you're doing nobody a favour by standing just outside the door yelling to him why you're never coming back and so is no-one else and you don't care if he throws you out because you were leaving anyway right after shouting at him some more oh and his girlfriend is ugly too.

Necrosis is right insofar as he realizes this premise. He can make suggestions, and the host can heed or ignore them. He can leave at any time he wishes if he no longer likes the party, but he doesn't have the right to enforce his will over that of the host.
[snapback]35431[/snapback]

No, we don't badmouth our friend's hosues.

However, if one of our friend's roomates askes 50 of his friends what could be changed to make the house better, and most of them think that the carpet needs changed, he has no right to say "It's my house, how dare you tell me to change!"

This thread has given us the right to speak our mind about the problems facing the server and the community. Archi opened a can of worms, and the recent poll in the spawncamping thread in the soapbox shows that most members would like the spawncamping rules rolled back some.

I think in reshuffling the community, we should look at reshuffing the admin staff as well. Ban-happy admins aren't fun for anyone. Admins like HD, Archi, formerly Ness, and recently Rad4Christ make the game fun, because they make their presence known without actually using kicks, bans, or other measures to affect gameplay except when needed.

I wonder if the admins that were mentioned the most in the anonymous complaints are those with the highest ban count, or at the very least, the ones that do the most saber rattling.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: ebnar on December 07, 2004, 08:22:09 AM
having been apart of the admin bureaucracy, i can honestly tell you that this thread won't go anywhere.

about reshuffling legion, they already started. me and 6 admins that none of you ever heard of because the never came onto lm were removed. progress is being made!
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 07, 2004, 08:52:09 AM
Arriving on this scene much later than everyone else, and having a more or less nuetral opinion on all the issues discussed I'm going to add my $0.02 to this thread...  Firstly I'll aplaude Archi's efforts to the highest degree, and say that I wish that I had been around this community more of the time you have been, I have always loved this community dispite it being somewhat of an enigma to me and I'm happy to see people who are dedicated to keeping it alive and well, whatever be the cost.  That being said, I don't think the essence of the issue here is really a few rules that need changing.  Rules like blockscript or no spawncamping are issues of preferance, and while I may or may not disagree with the rules themselfs, it isn't the rules that are causing the problems, it is the manner with which they are being upheld.

The logic behind first offence bans is compleatly lost to me, expecially perpetrated by any comunity that acctually wants to propegate its existance.  Myself coming here, I just happened to be the perfect candidate for a linux monster regular, naturally unassuming, non volitile, non script user; I have a malable gameplay style that was easily adaptable to the new conditions.  However, it should go without saying, not everyone is going to be able to break every habit in one day, least of all indoctrined stat whores.  But that doesn't change the fact that LM is one of the beacon communities of the NS universe, and really anyone who is anyone has at very least been banned from here at some point.  It always struck me as somewhat odd that in a comunity with so many hardasses high up, being a hardass could be such a dangerous thing.

Long story short, I think the essence of the issue is that something in your system is pissing people off, and you were just unlucky enough to have pissed off enough people with regardable status that your reputation of a comunity has degraded under the wheight of thier combined voiced opinions.  I think it is commendable that the leadership of this community is trying to be a fair judicial hammer among the high ranks as the low ranks, but the more I hear about it the more I am convinced that at least some of you guys are overcompensating just a tad...  The point is, people with weight to thier words feel like they have not been treated civily here, and I'm inclined to think that for at least some of the time they are probably right.  I know that I rarely recommend LM to new players simply because I doubt the ability of your average new player to stay a member of LM for any ammount of time simply because of the strictness, which often extends to general intolerance, of the enforcement of rules on this server.

I really had nothing to do with the whole thing, but to me when I hear about controversy over the legitimacy of a civ's membership in this comunity, I get peeved off.  Have you encountered this guy in the forums at all?  he is one of the least malicious, slowest to anger, people I have ever seen online; who just happens to have increadible skill in the game of NS.  If he did something that was in the grey area of the rules it was that was the thing that seemed the best thing to do at the moment.  If you were to present me the clearest evidence available that there was even the slightest malicious intent in his actions against the players the were perpetrated against, the server, or the server rules, I would not belive you.  At some point you have to make a distinction between people as people and people as entities able to follow arbitrary rules.  Intentions do matter.

All in all, my unwanted advice as of the best way to repair the apparent damage that this comunity is doing to itself.  Never issue a permaban that isn't consented to by the entirety of the admin staff, and gauge people based on intentions as much as actions when considering admin action.  After all, one of the recurring themes here is LM as a comunity as much as LM as a NS server.  Refrain from banning people that haven't technically broken any rules even if there intentions were to push the line, and if for some reason the current rules don't work right for that system, redefine them and reclarify them so that confusion is prevented.  The goal here should be to encourage people to adhere to your preferred style of play on your server, not to make people feel like they are being punished for thier indoctrinated playing style.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Crispy on December 07, 2004, 11:18:33 AM
Give that man a cookie  B)
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: That Annoying Kid on December 07, 2004, 11:48:01 AM
Quote
having been apart of the admin bureaucracy, i can honestly tell you that this thread won't go anywhere.

about reshuffling legion, they already started. me and 6 admins that none of you ever heard of because the never came onto lm were removed. progress is being made!
[snapback]35438[/snapback]

wait, 6 other admins got the ax as well as you?

I'm fairly confident I know the vast majority of people in this community, so who else got removed?


QUAN, you had a point to make did you not?

[edit]
olo, looks like quan got bant
[/edit]
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Necrosis on December 07, 2004, 04:23:49 PM
Reply time eh, joy. I'll probably edit this shortly, I see Ben browsing the thread and I'm sure he'll have something for me to reply to.


Also, right at the tope, in big caps, I REALISE THIS IS A THREAD TO AIR COMMENTS, so yes admins may well be listening, but you need to word things in the right way if you want to be accepted seriously.

Anyhow...


Gunner -

Its an advertising issue. Boo hoo if its part of anyone's tag. I don't think anyone can realistically construct an argument that would allow their tag to break the rules. I mean, I could go out tomorrow and start the *insert profanity here* clan and then throw a fit when I get banned from LM for obscenity in my tag. Tags don't mean that rules selectively apply. Its a big step away from naming everyone NSplayer by the way. It just means no adverts. Other people have adjusted by dropping the # sign, its not killing anyone to remove it. The rules say no adverts, so what the problem? You can't really complain about being punished for rule breaking.. its a ridiculous concept.



Keyser -

You misunderstand what I'm writing. Try and look at it this way -

The rules say "Speed limit 60mph"

A poor driver then drives at 70mph because he's making the most of his 10kph phantom higher limit that is still "legal"

A good driver is going under 60 but above 50 (being the lower percentile).

The good driver reads the rules and acts on them, the poor driver is taking advantage of a loophole in order to speed. Sure, he's not driving excessively fast on paper, but in reality he's motivated to speed as much as possible in order to get a 10-20mph edge on everyone else.


In the case of spawncamping, it would be abusing rules concerning location of the shooter, how many times he tries to actually kill a structure instead of camping, etc. On paper a poor player will try to defend his actions using the law, but his intentions are to exploit. Another possible explanation is someone who uses knowledge of the law in order to exploit the legal system for their own benefit. On paper they're doing no wrong, but in spirit they are exploiting the system.

I hope that clarifies.

If you're worried about shooting a skulk in the hive, alone, then perhaps you really shouldn't be in the hive shooting the skulk. Yes, this sometimes will mean a player has a poor game because noone else is following the game plan, but thats a situation where you would have to lose and deal with it. Big difference between

"I rushed the hive, I had no reinforcements, so I fell back"
and
"I rushed the hive, I had no reinforcements, I decided to stay and camp because I thought people would eventually come and turn my spawncamping into a rush"



Some things are acceptable on some servers that aren't on others. "Saberists code" in JK2/3. Swearing. Badmouthing other players. Exploiting. CC blocking. Map bugs. When you play on a server, you effectively agree to implement their ruleset, regardless of your personal opinion on the validity of those rules. If you can't play on a server without breaking their rules, then perhaps you shouldn't actually play on the server period. IMHO LM has a fairly easy to understand ruleset, reading the spirit of the rules.


Quote
I think anyone here realizes that we are talking about something within the confines of a game here. Those examples are meaningless. Please give something more realistic.

No, I'm explaining to you that "valid tactic" doesn't necessarily mean one thats in the spirit of the game. Second, if you think those are unfair or unsporting solutions to game problems then you're partway to understanding why some people don't like spawncamping.

Adj -

Quote
Owning a server does not give you the ability to treat the people like trash, nor does adminning it. When you have a community like LM does, the community at large should decide how things are run and the rules, it's not up the an admin's whim to decide what is good and what is evil.

Actually, it DOES give you the ability. Does it give you the right to do so? Perhaps not. But if an admin team were constantly rude and abusive then the server in question would be empty. The community have no say in the actions of private individuals in their own domain. Its not a democracy, its a "benevolent dictatorship" (as I have heard such things called on other forums). Again, just because there's a community doesn't mean we can phone up a development team and order them to scrap a project so they can make something that a few of us want. Feel free to petition the Total War team to make a game about avocados that sing and play, tbh I think they'll ignore you. The only reasons people in positions of power listen to underlings are:

1) Listening would improve profit
2) Listening would promote more interest in the product

Otherwise HL2 would have been rewritten as an epic story about a flying vole who can turn himself inside out to shoot death rays at ant/chicken crossbreeds. Because one person on drugs thought it would be a good idea, and since he was a community he therefore had to have his word taken as law.

Indeed.

I don't know about you "ban situation" because I'm not an admin, but I do know that people can get wrongly banned due to misreported actions. Thats just the breaks. You're not really meant to hold a grudge afterwards. In your case, lets consider -

1) You were pancaking, and got a logical ban
2) You were flying suspiciously, someone thought it was pancaking, noone had a demo, so you were unfairly banned (and then evidently unbanned when the truth was apparent).
3) You were mauling the enemy team to an extent where it was getting boring, and noone was moving to end the game (but were unbanned because it was merely meant to be a lesson in not unbalancing play).


When I was working in a game store, there ended up being situations where I had to stop someone from playing because they were crippling the fun for everyone else. Hell, I was banned from playing my fav army because I couldn't be stopped. Its in the best interests of other people. If you have an issue with why you were banned, or what your interpretation of the ban meant, then perhaps you need to take a trip to the PR forum or PM an admin you think will listen fairly to your petition. Raking it up over and over in discussion won't get the resolution you're looking for - it just serves to derail threads into the same old same old (case in point, any thread on the NS.org forums involving the usual suspects and their "black list" of any person/server who dared disagree with them).


Quote
But when there's a large community on a server and supporting it

We're supporting LM how? I haven't given money, I don't advertise it (because the only other NS forum I frequent has a no server advert rule), and I certainly can't bring in new and better players. I just play on it when I can. I don't call that supporting it, I call that using it. Of course I'm happy to accept that perhaps my opinion is a bit odd.

Quote
When there is large community support for something that isn't outrageous or not within the scope of the community's design, it's probably a good idea to listen and at least understand why they want something done or undone.

Why? Do tell. Illuminate me, why should a person paying x monetary units a month want to listen to people who have difficulties following the rules? If I break the rules, and say they suck, and generally make a nuisance, then why is anyone going to listen to me? If anything, they'd be waiting for me to leave. If I don't break the rules, and I'm not an annoyance, but I'm a good player who can play fair and well, then I'm the person the admin WANTS TO ATTRACT and thus they will listen to me in order to get more of me. I'm not saying everyone who disagrees with the rules is a griefer, but we do get quite a few who are drawn to the LM "name" and then make a pain of themselves. Go figure.

Quote
In your reply you state that nodes should be used to delay the other team. How is killing the alien's hive node not using nodes to delay them?

Don't confuse "killing the hive node" with "excuse to hide in the hive, kill 2 dozen skulks, and maybe fire a bullet or two into the node". Again, the difference between letter of the rules and spirit of the rules.

Spawncamping rules exist to prevent one lone player abusing his knowledge of the game. If 5 rines rush the hive with the objective of taking it all down, then its hardly spawncamping. If 1 rine hides in a corner and potshots the spawners, then he's spawncamping. Its pretty clear cut. 5 rines in a hive is a gross mistake and clear sign of imminent endgame. A solo ninja in a hive is a common occurrence and a prelude to ninja phase - it should NOT be a prelude to spawncamping in order to prevent play taking place. If you want a game with no enemies and plenty of time to build stuff then I suggest buying Lego.

Quote
Necrosis you're something called a Yes Man.

Sure, whatever. Fact is however that I'm part of the happy majority who's had no problems. Are we all yes men? Or are we the target audience of LM? I air my disagreements in the proper areas, I make my suggestions in the proper place, I understand my contribution to the server and I understand the influence I can expect to exert on others. I'm something called the average player. I'm something called a realist. I have an imagination, but I can separate dreamland from reality.

Your example of the great "why?" is flawed. People answered Why? with Divine Right. People answered Why? with Skin Colour. Why? has caused just as many problems as anything else in history.

Quote
Simply going along with what other people do without asking questions or attempting to alter something you think is wrong is how the most horrible things in the history of the world have occurred

Secondly, following orders is responsible for a great many victories - especially when the question Why? invariably leads to the answer "I don't know, therefore I will run and I will live".


Guest Bacon -

If you kept tipping your King in chess then eventually noone would play you. You don't see many people tipping their King because "OGM SICILIAN DEFENSE WTFBBQ". Its a nice comparision but flawed and doesn't take into account that there exists a vast amount of tards who F4 the second things don't go their way - and I for one have had the best games when its been an uphill struggle.


Lolfighter -

OGMBUNNIES YOU'RE MY YES MAN!!!! BBQ!!

I will send you the chocolate cake as we agreed. Pictures in the cooking thread. One vision, one purpose.

Plaguebearer -

I may be wrong, but if the marine team shotgun rush the hive then aliens will quickly learn the value of defense. In one game, on Lost, we marines trained into the alien hive, totally unopposed, and lmged it down with massed unupgraded firepower. Valuable lesson taught to the aliens. Marines dont need to fear the hive, the only need to fear camping in the hive shooting spawning skulks. Hiding in the vent and building a pg is fine. Rushing it with all hands is fine. Or so I read it.


Legion-

Quote
This thread has given us the right to speak our mind about the problems facing the server and the community

Valid point. It was asked for, it was got. Tho I think we could go about it a better way. I mean atm we can see varying different views on what is considered fair play, and I think thats what the crux of the problem is.


Swifty -

Quote
Myself coming here, I just happened to be the perfect candidate for a linux monster regular, naturally unassuming, non volitile, non script user; I have a malable gameplay style that was easily adaptable to the new conditions.

I see I am not alone.


Well thats me done for another day, sorry for the long read - I tend to shove verbose posts on NS.org so I'm too tired to debate properly on LM. I blame the NS forums!!
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: GrayDuck on December 07, 2004, 04:51:01 PM
Alright – Archi nuke this but I have to chime in…

Necrosis, I think you’re hearts in the right place but you’ve gone a bit overboard.  You say that you and others don’t support LM – you only play there, and that LM doesn’t need to cater to you or anyone else in the community.  But the fact of the matter is that LM would not / could not be around without the community.  Your activeness here, on IRC, and on the server keeps LM together.  And you’re right the rules don’t HAVE to change for you guys, but suggestions and constructive criticisms are more than welcome.  Several community members have pointed out the same (or similar) problems, that means that some stuff should get re-evaluated.  Not all of your suggestions will be acted upon, but they are respectfully noted and even appreciated.  Keep them coming.  Just keep it respectful.  

LM is a community… you can’t have that without support from community members.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: MrGunner on December 07, 2004, 05:54:46 PM
Necro why do I keep getting banned then no matter what I change my name to.

OH WAIT IT MUST BE MY FAULT ANYWAY RIGHT?  It's not just a few of us that are having these problems we are just the few that care to ask why it happens.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Plaguebearer on December 07, 2004, 07:06:26 PM
Nec- yes, shotgun rushes pwn hives.  Yes, there's no fear in building a phase and rushing.  But these are not 'blitz' scenarios where the hive is in danger from the moment the skulks hit the ground... normally, alien team doesn't have to worry about the hives until the second one is building.  

You never see things like the old Grendel chestnut of 'send three guys with lmgs into the hive to kill their start node and have them bug out'... because that would get those three guys and the comm banned.

The current spawncamping rules mollycoddle the alien team.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Isamil on December 07, 2004, 07:25:23 PM
LB just deleted the server guidelines.

The rules are as they were:

1. NS is about teamwork. Obey your commander, listen to your team. Don't spawncamp.
2. Don't be a llama. Use common sense. Don't be a Commander or a gorge If new.
3. Please be respectful to everyone always. Don't swear other people out.
4. No Clan-Stacking. Two to a team is usually fine. Keep it 1v1, 2v1, 2v2, 3v2, etc.
5. You might be switched to even teams without warning. So try and keep them even.
6. Using cheats, skin, game or map exploits & abusing spectator chat is cause for a ban.
7. Spam the chat or voicecomm, get gagged, muted, kicked or banned. We kick AFK'ers.
8. To dispute a ban or for abuse claims, send a clear e-mail with proof to servers@lunixmonster.org
9. No advertising.
10. Purposefully attacking teammates or team structures when friendly fire is on is bannable.

I really don't see how deleting the guidelines helps...they were a step in the right direction, lets not delete them just because a few parts could use some editing.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Keyser59 on December 07, 2004, 08:01:52 PM
Quote
Keyser -

You misunderstand what I'm writing. Try and look at it this way -

The rules say "Speed limit 60mph"

A poor driver then drives at 70mph because he's making the most of his 10kph phantom higher limit that is still "legal"

A good driver is going under 60 but above 50 (being the lower percentile).

The good driver reads the rules and acts on them, the poor driver is taking advantage of a loophole in order to speed. Sure, he's not driving excessively fast on paper, but in reality he's motivated to speed as much as possible in order to get a 10-20mph edge on everyone else.


In the case of spawncamping, it would be abusing rules concerning location of the shooter, how many times he tries to actually kill a structure instead of camping, etc. On paper a poor player will try to defend his actions using the law, but his intentions are to exploit. Another possible explanation is someone who uses knowledge of the law in order to exploit the legal system for their own benefit. On paper they're doing no wrong, but in spirit they are exploiting the system.

I hope that clarifies.

If you're worried about shooting a skulk in the hive, alone, then perhaps you really shouldn't be in the hive shooting the skulk. Yes, this sometimes will mean a player has a poor game because noone else is following the game plan, but thats a situation where you would have to lose and deal with it. Big difference between

"I rushed the hive, I had no reinforcements, so I fell back"
and
"I rushed the hive, I had no reinforcements, I decided to stay and camp because I thought people would eventually come and turn my spawncamping into a rush"

I think you're the one who misunderstood me. Key concept here is reflexes. When you're lerk and you are getting shot at, you are going to move in such a way that will avoid enemy fire. This is true in any situation of any version. You don't think to yourself in that situation "Hmm, I can only fly so fast in the Z direction, so I'll make sure to stay under the speed cap."

Let's face it, the point of any game is to win. That's why we play. Yes we play to have fun, but it wouldn't be a (good) game without a competitive nature to it. Say the rules say you couldn't come within 2 rooms of an active spawning hive. What would you do then? Probably camp the rule outside of the limit so you wouldn't get banned. What would you do if the rules said you could only cap 5 nodes on the map at any time? You would cap those 5 and not go over. Would you cap only 4 for following the 'spirit' of the rule? No, because that is rediculous. The spirit of the law is rediculous when you have the rule set up to block every possible loophole to the poorly thought out rule.

Now with spawncamping, you have to consider the rules before entering the hive with teammates. The team has to consider "Hmm, can we actually destroy structures or hives without camping excessively if we enter?" rather than "How can we use the best teamwork to pull this off?" This is more frustrating than I can put into words, and it hurts the flow of the game considerably.

Same thing with medpack requests. You try to do as many as possible without tripping over the arbitrary line of 'spamming'. Would you let yourself die because you've not quite reached the limit but you really need a medpack?

I'm not sure if you've ever driven before, but a driver doing 60 in a 70 zone will get passed by just about 90% of people on the road. You talk about a bad driver doing 70, when more than half go over the speed limit. God forbid you're driving on a one lane road, if you do 10 miles under the speed limit someone will commit a rage crime against you. Especially in the city.

I'm not sure where you got the notion that driving the speed limit was bad, but way back in my drivers Ed you got bad marks if you went and stayed more than 5-10 mph under the speed limit for a consistently. It's called impeding traffic.

Quote
No, I'm explaining to you that "valid tactic" doesn't necessarily mean one thats in the spirit of the game. Second, if you think those are unfair or unsporting solutions to game problems then you're partway to understanding why some people don't like spawncamping.

No, what I'm saying is play the game the way it was meant to be played, no hacks, no DDOSing the opponents computer, no sending hired assasins, no setting up arbitrary rules, etc... I mean every wacky rule that restricts teams from playing the game how it should be played is another step taken away from how the devs intended the game to played. Pancaking is not a big enough problem that it causes bad lerks to become invincible, unlike where flying cost no energy. I mean if all you do is hit the ceiling and floor, than you won't be contributing anything anyways. Spawncamping is easily prevented with scouting and teamwork (look at that, no spawncamping rules actually hurt alien teamwork  o_O ), and 'spamming' rules should only be applied to those who are intentially ruining the game.

Quote
Sure, whatever. Fact is however that I'm part of the happy majority who's had no problems. Are we all yes men? Or are we the target audience of LM? I air my disagreements in the proper areas, I make my suggestions in the proper place, I understand my contribution to the server and I understand the influence I can expect to exert on others. I'm something called the average player. I'm something called a realist. I have an imagination, but I can separate dreamland from reality.

Browsing through the ban forums give a good impression of the happy satisfaction, not to mention the legions of names on Archi's list who are community members. Eh?

Quote
If you kept tipping your King in chess then eventually noone would play you. You don't see many people tipping their King because "OGM SICILIAN DEFENSE WTFBBQ". Its a nice comparision but flawed and doesn't take into account that there exists a vast amount of tards who F4 the second things don't go their way - and I for one have had the best games when its been an uphill struggle.

The best players often tip their king long before the game is over, and yet they are still considered the best. Eh? People don't play chess for an uphill battle or to experience the thrill of the moment, it is played to match intelligence against intelligence. (hint: this is probably where you should argue the difference) Tipping your king is conceiting, and is widely respected among the best players.

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I may be wrong, but if the marine team shotgun rush the hive then aliens will quickly learn the value of defense. In one game, on Lost, we marines trained into the alien hive, totally unopposed, and lmged it down with massed unupgraded firepower. Valuable lesson taught to the aliens. Marines dont need to fear the hive, the only need to fear camping in the hive shooting spawning skulks. Hiding in the vent and building a pg is fine. Rushing it with all hands is fine. Or so I read it.

2 skulks can demolish chew down key structures that the marines will never recover from if they aren't on their guard. What can 2 marines do? Delay the enemy by spawncamping. Whoa, they actually seem sorta equivalent!
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Guest Bacon on December 07, 2004, 09:31:34 PM
Keyser basically answered my part, but I'll add a bit more.

Theres uphill struggles, and then theres ramming your head at a wall. A good commander (or icky space alien) knows when the battle is lost.

But were going off on a tangent here.

I guess what Im trying to say is: you may claim that a spawncamper is artifically extending a game thats already over. Im responding by telling you that its also the spawncampee's fault for enduring it, when you have the handy button 4 keys to the right of Esc. Looking at it from this point of view, spawncamping is not a crime/exploit, and thus should not be a bannable offense.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Isamil on December 07, 2004, 09:52:02 PM
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Keyser basically answered my part, but I'll add a bit more.

Theres uphill struggles, and then theres ramming your head at a wall. A good commander (or icky space alien) knows when the battle is lost.

But were going off on a tangent here.

I guess what Im trying to say is: you may claim that a spawncamper is artifically extending a game thats already over. Im responding by telling you that its also the spawncampee's fault for enduring it, when you have the handy button 4 keys to the right of Esc. Looking at it from this point of view, spawncamping is not a crime/exploit, and thus should not be a bannable offense.
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Bacon, the server doesn't allow F4ing, that isn't an option.  And the rule isn't changing, they've tried it without that rule before.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 07, 2004, 09:58:17 PM
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No, I'm explaining to you that "valid tactic" doesn't necessarily mean one thats in the spirit of the game. Second, if you think those are unfair or unsporting solutions to game problems then you're partway to understanding why some people don't like spawncamping.

No, what I'm saying is play the game the way it was meant to be played, no hacks, no DDOSing the opponents computer, no sending hired assasins, no setting up arbitrary rules, etc... I mean every wacky rule that restricts teams from playing the game how it should be played is another step taken away from how the devs intended the game to played. Pancaking is not a big enough problem that it causes bad lerks to become invincible, unlike where flying cost no energy. I mean if all you do is hit the ceiling and floor, than you won't be contributing anything anyways. Spawncamping is easily prevented with scouting and teamwork (look at that, no spawncamping rules actually hurt alien teamwork  o_O ), and 'spamming' rules should only be applied to those who are intentially ruining the game.
I actually like the no spawncamping rules, its part of the reason I like playing on this server, that is just a point of prefernace, I don't like getting killed before I can move, exspecially just so that some jackass can get +1 kills at my exspense of +1 deaths; statwhoring takes the fun out of the game.  What I don't like is the fact that everyone seems to be jumping on every friggin marine that walks into a hive and takes a shot at something moving, and that people are getting banned for actions they commited with absolutly no malicious intent.  Since an admin has to go through all the trouble of logging the ban anyways, why not just post a message in game "hey a Civ, you've camped the hive long enough, don't risk spawncamping"  After all, things like that and pancaking are certianly one of the heat of the moment things that any of us might accidentally do with enough adrenilin in the right situation...

The issue in my opinion is that people feel opressed here.  They aren't coming to ruin everyone's fun, they aren't coming to stat whore, they are just coming to have some fun playing the game, but they are treated by some of the admins as if simply by entering the server they must have malicious intent.  I honestly think this server could get by just as effectively if the maximum sentance for a major breache of conduct was a one month ban except in extream cases such as repeat offences or blatant hate actions or hacking.  I try as hard as I might but I don't see the logic behind the whole "well you have been here for 2 years, but you screwed up once, so I never want to see you here again" aditude.  I realize there is a reputation to keep up and all, but I honestly think that such a community is not realistically sustainable in the long run.  

Think of what would happen to the population of earth if everyone who committed any offence of felony rating or higher was simply killed...  I would think the fear of authority alone would practically complealty stop the rise of population; who would want to bring thier child into such a terrifying world, not to mention the sheer numbers of people that are simply being eliminated?  We are experciancing a small scale simulation of this exactly.  Half the community members who would be here if they could are banned-perminantly because they had a bad day and did something they regret now, or something to else that mesure (I'll say that some of them were just assholes and deserved a permaban, but some of them weren't, and some of the assholes have changed over time) and the consequental word of mouth coming from these people has become strong enough to offset the best efforts of your advitizers and prevent many potential new members from coming here.

This is a great community if you can put on a perfect face 24/7, but go somewhere else if you are partial to bad moods, because you won't last long here anyways.

I realize I'm ranting, but maby it is time to patch up a few old greivences finally?

[edit] Keyser and Necrosis, you aren't even talking about the upholding of rules any more, you are just arguing about stupid analogies, and neither of the points seem particulary relevent to the topic at hand...  Necrosis I agree with you that people are better judged by intent in terms of rule breaking than by letter of the law, as I have stated before.  But I think that whenever you attempt to inforce a complicated to assess rule such as "No spawncamping" or "No pancaking" you need to give people a chance to understand what exactly you constitute as going over the edge.  Otherwize I could argue that anyone within 200 meters of a hive room should turn around and head back to marine start because they could techically be spawncamping or that no lerking player can move on the vertical axis or risk breaching the unimplimented speed limits.

If there is a speed limit on the road, it is understood that you will move slightly above it, if you go excessively below the speed limit you are being a nuesance to the other drivers, like a marine that simply will not enter a hive room at all costs is a wasted player slot on his team, but if you are going above the speed limit you are a danger to other drivers, in our marine's case he is being a frustration to the opposing players due to his unfair tactics.  The issue is balance, but the difference is that in once case you will get pulled over and givin a highly annoying fine and sent on your way to drive properly from then on, and in the other you are removed from activity in the comunity perminatly.[/edit]
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Guest Bacon on December 07, 2004, 10:07:25 PM
So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:

You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 07, 2004, 10:13:46 PM
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So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:

You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.
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If your suggesting that they simply make a rule disallow stat whoring then your not thinking very clearly.  It is the hardest possible thing to prove a person is doing, and is even more suseptable to admin bias then any other rule I can possibly think of.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: a civilian on December 07, 2004, 11:37:51 PM
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So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:

You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.
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If your suggesting that they simply make a rule disallow stat whoring then your not thinking very clearly.  It is the hardest possible thing to prove a person is doing, and is even more suseptable to admin bias then any other rule I can possibly think of.
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I believe he is referring to the rule against concession of the game.

I simply haven't seen the constant premature concessions that some people claim they saw in the absence of a such a rule.  I played on a server for over a year-and-a-half that allowed F4'ing, and I found such incidences to be extremely rare.  Extremely rare as in occurring only once or twice in my entire time playing there.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 07, 2004, 11:49:44 PM
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So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:

You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.
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If your suggesting that they simply make a rule disallow stat whoring then your not thinking very clearly.  It is the hardest possible thing to prove a person is doing, and is even more suseptable to admin bias then any other rule I can possibly think of.
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I believe he is referring to the rule against concession of the game.

I simply haven't seen the constant premature concessions that some people claim they saw in the absence of a such a rule.  I played on a server for over a year-and-a-half that allowed F4'ing, and I found such incidences to be extremely rare.  Extremely rare as in occurring only once or twice in my entire time playing there.
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Every pub I've played in games end almost every time with the opposing team conceeding.  I realize that many players don't want to wait around to be obliterated and see it as a waste of time, and I support thier right to belive so.  But the fact reamains that I prefer to play a game as if the F4 function didn't exist, thus I am glad that there are at least some servers out there that do not allow premature consessions whatsoever.  The primary function of the no spawncamping rule is twofold to prevent jackass style drawing out of long games and also to prevent stat whoring...  The latter is probably the more problematic when it comes to translation of the spawncamping rule in my opinion...
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Keyser59 on December 08, 2004, 12:48:39 AM
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I actually like the no spawncamping rules, its part of the reason I like playing on this server, that is just a point of prefernace, I don't like getting killed before I can move, exspecially just so that some jackass can get +1 kills at my exspense of +1 deaths; statwhoring takes the fun out of the game. What I don't like is the fact that everyone seems to be jumping on every friggin marine that walks into a hive and takes a shot at something moving, and that people are getting banned for actions they commited with absolutly no malicious intent. Since an admin has to go through all the trouble of logging the ban anyways, why not just post a message in game "hey a Civ, you've camped the hive long enough, don't risk spawncamping" After all, things like that and pancaking are certianly one of the heat of the moment things that any of us might accidentally do with enough adrenilin in the right situation...

I don't so much mind the no spawncamping rules, but have you tried deciphering the rules as it is now? It's not "no spawncamping" anymore, its no "going anywhere near the hive unless you can accomplish something". There are rules when or when you can't build a phasegate, when or when you can't hit the hive, how many people are required to be legit spawncamping. I'd rather focus on playing the game and having fun instead of worrying about situations which could get me banned. Sometimes I think the only sure way to not be banned is to stay away from the hive at all costs, especially when players, not admins, are the first to whine about anything that might possibly be related.

Swiftspear, my node example was a continuation of what happens when rediculous rules get out of hand to get a better picture of what is happening now on a lesser scale.

Spawncamping is a MUCH more easily enforceable rule when it stays at "killing the players as they spawn before they have a chance to protect themselves". I'm not sure why the server decided to extend that simple rule to something so drawn out and convoluted, but I guess part of it has to do with me  <_<
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: UKchaos on December 08, 2004, 02:33:52 AM
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Here's an idea, why not remove the rule entirely, add an umbra spawn protection for aliens and stop hindering gameplay? Hurrah! You see umbra spawn does what it says on the tin, aliens spawn in umbra. Lone marines can't spawn camp that unless the aliens are totally asleep and lets face it, they aren't going to win in that situation anyway so by not spawn camping and ending it quickly you're breaking the "dont drag a game out rule."

The rules are out of control and do nothing but hinder gameplay, i hate to have to stop and check myself to make sure by standing in this corridor or blinking in MS i'm not violating a certain rule and will end up with a post in the PR forum. That's not fun, that's a pain in the ass and when rules start to interfere with the game like that then you have an issue.

Agreed 100%. There needs to be game mechanism that deals with spawn campers instead of trying to enforce elaborate rules. There must be plugin that lets you change the duration of umbra/invunrability so we can get a compromise. If it makes hive rushes that little bit harder, then so be it. Marines can use GLs, siege, teamwork, whatever. Its more an issue of balance than sportsmanship.

The whole issue of spawncamping has become sensitive to the point where we are made to feel guilty about protecting ourselves during a hive rush. Even if its 2 sgs on the hive and 4 lmgs only shooting the respawning skulks, so what? Thats Teamwork, thats playing the game how it was designed and how it was intended to be played. If you find situations like that irrating then NS isnt your game.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 08, 2004, 03:05:28 AM
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Here's an idea, why not remove the rule entirely, add an umbra spawn protection for aliens and stop hindering gameplay? Hurrah! You see umbra spawn does what it says on the tin, aliens spawn in umbra. Lone marines can't spawn camp that unless the aliens are totally asleep and lets face it, they aren't going to win in that situation anyway so by not spawn camping and ending it quickly you're breaking the "dont drag a game out rule."

The rules are out of control and do nothing but hinder gameplay, i hate to have to stop and check myself to make sure by standing in this corridor or blinking in MS i'm not violating a certain rule and will end up with a post in the PR forum. That's not fun, that's a pain in the ass and when rules start to interfere with the game like that then you have an issue.

Agreed 100%. There needs to be game mechanism that deals with spawn campers instead of trying to enforce elaborate rules. There must be plugin that lets you change the duration of umbra/invunrability so we can get a compromise. If it makes hive rushes that little bit harder, then so be it. Marines can use GLs, siege, teamwork, whatever.

The whole issue of spawncamping has become sensitive to the point where we are made to feel guilty about protecting ourselves during a hive rush. Even if its 2 sgs on the hive and 4 lmgs only shooting the respawning skulks, so what? Thats called playing the game how it was designed, how it was intended to be played. If you find situations like that irrating then NS isnt your game.
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I think the main point of issue with that was that LB doesn't like the AMX plugins and will only use the adminmod (I know one of those is wrong, sorry I know nothing about admin plugins).  If he feels one does a better job than the other that is an issue that I think is good enough as a "because I said so issue".  What program a server runs should very much be the responsibility of the server owner...  IIRC admin mod doesn't allow quite the customization that AMX does, and spawning units in an umbra cloud isn't possible to do...

Like I said before, spawncamping with the intent of spawncamping is somthing I simply don't want to see in the servers I play with.  I don't think it is fair for a single marine to kill waves of spawning skulks, expecially if they are not getting a chance to move to cover or locate him before they are dying.  A single marine honestly probably doesn't have any buisness whatsoever in a hive that involves any shooting, although on second thought that probably is a fairly big one...

To me, it has always been somewhat of an issue of decernment on the admins part.  If the admin feels there is spawncamping going on then they should first make if very clear to whatever player is spawncamping that they are pushing the boundries... and it needs to be done with something asside from that purple pop up text crap, that stuff looks WAY to much like a server wide AMX announcement or something... I know I have myself mistaken several warnings directed at me in the past as wide announcements, (usually for FF, as I like to take the back row and pick off skulks as they swarm around my buddies ankles) they definitely don't feel like a warning anyways...  If need be kick, or temp ban for ten minutes while in the act of spawn camping, but it is really the kind of action that can be done accidentally quite easily, and I know for a fact it will take may player a while to get used to simply avoiding actions that put them in a position where spawncamping is going to happen, there really doesn't need to be complex rules about it if the punishment for the crime is not so harsh.  I would still like to see malicious and irepentant spawn campers banned, but I think banning anyone for accidental actions, even if the are repeditive, is going over the edge.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: UKchaos on December 08, 2004, 03:21:01 AM
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I think the main point of issue with that was that LB doesn't like the AMX plugins and will only use the adminmod (I know one of those is wrong, sorry I know nothing about admin plugins). If he feels one does a better job than the other that is an issue that I think is good enough as a "because I said so issue". What program a server runs should very much be the responsibility of the server owner... IIRC admin mod doesn't allow quite the customization that AMX does, and spawning units in an umbra

Fair enough, i respect that.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: lolfighter on December 08, 2004, 07:51:51 AM
Well, removing the guidelines and replacing them with the old rules (which worked PERFECTLY for almost a year) has accomplished one thing:

Before, the rules were of the complex sort that some people take to be complete. This means that they feel entitled to doing whatever they want if they can justify it to themselves based on their interpretation of the rules.
No more of that.

Now, our rules are obviously not complete. They are broader, less specific. Most people won't have problems with it, just like it's been for the past year. A few will, some because they don't get it, and some intentionally. Those that don't get it will either get it when they get kicked for offending, or they will never get it and will get banned. Those that intentionally don't get it will get kicked or tempbanned, whine, continue to not get it, get banned, whine more, get banned from the forums as well.

The advantage of this is that the complaining will shift from the rules back to the admins, the way it has always been. Which is ok, we can take it. We are quite capable of telling the difference between honest criticism and childish whining, and of tuning the latter out. Personal attacks are easy to deal with through copious amounts of shoulder-shrugging and "see if I care"-attitude.

There was a german politican who became a member of the german congress a few years back. He stopped forward and said "yes, I am gay. Whatever." The tabloids reacted with stunned silence. How the hell do you make a story out of that? The inevitable answer was that they couldn't. The man had effectively defused a future "scandal" about his sexual preference by simply admitting to it openly.

In that spirit, I hereby claim to be an evil admin (you can also call me Nazi because of my german heritage if you will). I am wicked and twisted, I am full of malice, I abuse my powers to no end. Calling me evil will not faze me, it will only elicit a fiendish laugh from me (probably followed by strapping you to a steel slab and having the beam of an industrial laser very slowly advance on your crotch. "Do you expect me to talk?" "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to DIE!" *ahem* But I digress). Deal with it. Heck, post this everywhere for all the world to see. I'm evil, oh so evil, and I admin an evil server of evil evilness. Have a banstick, have a banstick!

So sailor, what are you going to do about it?
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Guest Bacon on December 08, 2004, 08:27:29 AM
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The primary function of the no spawncamping rule is twofold to prevent jackass style drawing out of long games and also to prevent stat whoring...  The latter is probably the more problematic when it comes to translation of the spawncamping rule in my opinion...
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"jackass style drawing out of long games" is impossible when consession is allowed, and people know when and how to use it.

stat whoring...you guys actually take the stats seriously? I thought its a really informal thing. How is the rating calculated anyway?
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Crispy on December 08, 2004, 09:08:09 AM
I think they mean the sort of people who'll take screenshots of their end-game scoretables to show off their 30-6 or so score. I used to do it in CS because it's actually a representation of skill* but in NS there's much more that makes a skilful player than simply his killcount.

[size=8]*I still have a screeny of the console showing how I killed 7/8 terrorists on cs_siege having started with just a USP and Kevlar - wish I'd known how to demo back then.[/size]

@Necro: I don't think the purpose of this thread is to talk about how people should follow the rules without question, that pretty much goes with out saying if you're going to play on someone else's server. The thing is, the community has been provided with place and occasion to air its views about the rules. The question is not should we follow rules, but how could the rules be cleared up to avoid mistakes by players who are unsure how to follow them and admins who are unsure how to apply them fairly.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Niteowl on December 08, 2004, 09:58:57 AM
It's like all the energies of the NS.org forum have been concentrated on this one thread.  What a brutally long thread. And honestly, it's because of this length that no one who can change stuff is going to read it. LB has certain stances on certain things that just won't change, not in my experience, anyhoo.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Crispy on December 08, 2004, 10:29:48 AM
Well if that's anything to go by I look forward to seeing the fruits of Archi and this community's labour...

If I'd been given an admin position by a server and had enough time to do it I'd have no complaint in fishing through what's been said to make a summary of the main points raised and the main arguments for and against them. Hell I'll even do it for you if needs be.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Legionnaired on December 08, 2004, 01:32:30 PM
*ahem* (http://www.lunixmonster.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2121)

Scooter, I trust most of the admins, I honestly don't think it's going to be a problem.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Mr.Ben on December 08, 2004, 03:42:39 PM
You know some rounds are extended by people NOT spawn camping and ending it.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 08, 2004, 11:13:25 PM
My 2 second defintion for spawncamping.  Killing spawning skulks before they have a chance to defend themselfs (weather that means getting behind the hive or attacking the offending marine) with no short term intention OR ability to destroy hive resourses.

Therefore: you aren't spawncamping you are running throught the hive
and shoot one skulk to death because you have not killed spawning skulkS

you aren't spawncamping if are nearly finished building a PG in hive when you defend yourself getting attacked

you aren't spawncamping sighting for sieges in any case

you aren't spawncamping killing spawnings skulks to cover you two buddies with SG's laying waste to hive (if there is an onos or fade in hive than it is his faulth that skulks are getting wasted, he should be killing the attacking marines)

you aren't spawncamping kinfing DC's in the hive, unless you buckle down and start shooting skulks before you have a reasonable chance of acctually killing the DC's

You are spawncamping defending a building PG at two red lines in hiveroom (unless there are 1-2 other marines there building it)

You are spawncamping peaking out behind corners and shooting spawning skulks from a distance

You are spawncamping putting pistol shots into the hive one by one just so you can shoot more skulks there

You are spawncamping if you run in shooting spawning skulks, start knifing something getting off two slashes before each new skulk spawns to you can immediately kill them
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: TheAdj on December 09, 2004, 11:12:09 AM
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So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:

You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.
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If your suggesting that they simply make a rule disallow stat whoring then your not thinking very clearly.  It is the hardest possible thing to prove a person is doing, and is even more suseptable to admin bias then any other rule I can possibly think of.
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I believe he is referring to the rule against concession of the game.

I simply haven't seen the constant premature concessions that some people claim they saw in the absence of a such a rule.  I played on a server for over a year-and-a-half that allowed F4'ing, and I found such incidences to be extremely rare.  Extremely rare as in occurring only once or twice in my entire time playing there.
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Every pub I've played in games end almost every time with the opposing team conceeding.  I realize that many players don't want to wait around to be obliterated and see it as a waste of time, and I support thier right to belive so.  But the fact reamains that I prefer to play a game as if the F4 function didn't exist, thus I am glad that there are at least some servers out there that do not allow premature consessions whatsoever.  The primary function of the no spawncamping rule is twofold to prevent jackass style drawing out of long games and also to prevent stat whoring...  The latter is probably the more problematic when it comes to translation of the spawncamping rule in my opinion...
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Most pub players have little clue how to end the game, especially on the alien team.  It takes 30 minutes to do something that should take about 5.  I've seen 5-6 onos just sit outside ms and devour marines that leave because they're too clueless to realize simply running into MS en masse will present so many hitpoints that the marines literally can't kill them fast enough.  In fact I would say most games end in a slow painful agony due to player incompetence.  Few servers quickly end games, and the ones that do are the ones I normally populate.  I know of another pub server that I generally consider the best because of it's competitive and common sense rules, yet the players aren't necessarily better than any other servers.  

Believe it or not I have a sense of what's fun and what isn't in a game.  I try to make the game enjoyable to everyone, alien and marine alike, regardless of what team I'm on and what I'm doing.  I don't think I've ever sent a marine into a hive to spawncamp, I almost always send them to kill the RT or something else in the hive.  My point in talking about spawncamping was there is a legitimate form that is to accomplish something and a form which is to simply delay the game.  2-3 marines sitting in the hive killing the RT isn't delaying the game, as they most likely have no ability to end the game by themselves.  They are merely carrying out a small objective in order to help win the game, and often they'll get punished for it.  If a spawncamping rule is going to be in place, at least make it very clear what is legitimate spawncamping and what isn't, there's a large difference.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: That Annoying Kid on December 09, 2004, 11:26:51 AM
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My 2 second defintion for spawncamping.  Killing spawning skulks before they have a chance to defend themselfs (weather that means getting behind the hive or attacking the offending marine) with no short term intention OR ability to destroy hive resourses.

Therefore: you aren't spawncamping you are running throught the hive
and shoot one skulk to death because you have not killed spawning skulkS

you aren't spawncamping if are nearly finished building a PG in hive when you defend yourself getting attacked

you aren't spawncamping sighting for sieges in any case

you aren't spawncamping killing spawnings skulks to cover you two buddies with SG's laying waste to hive (if there is an onos or fade in hive than it is his faulth that skulks are getting wasted, he should be killing the attacking marines)

you aren't spawncamping kinfing DC's in the hive, unless you buckle down and start shooting skulks before you have a reasonable chance of acctually killing the DC's

You are spawncamping defending a building PG at two red lines in hiveroom (unless there are 1-2 other marines there building it)

You are spawncamping peaking out behind corners and shooting spawning skulks from a distance

You are spawncamping putting pistol shots into the hive one by one just so you can shoot more skulks there

You are spawncamping if you run in shooting spawning skulks, start knifing something getting off two slashes before each new skulk spawns to you can immediately kill them
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decent, but what if you went to the hive to kill there RT, and someone kills a skulk in the field, and then it respawns next to you... I can't kill that skulk, even if I was there first? I should just let it come and kill me or what?

also Adj, I agree with the vast majority of what you said.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: JohnTheGarbageman on December 09, 2004, 02:10:20 PM
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Its an advertising issue. Boo hoo if its part of anyone's tag. I don't think anyone can realistically construct an argument that would allow their tag to break the rules. I mean, I could go out tomorrow and start the *insert profanity here* clan and then throw a fit when I get banned from LM for obscenity in my tag. Tags don't mean that rules selectively apply. Its a big step away from naming everyone NSplayer by the way. It just means no adverts. Other people have adjusted by dropping the # sign, its not killing anyone to remove it. The rules say no adverts, so what the problem? You can't really complain about being punished for rule breaking.. its a ridiculous concept.
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He said he changed it to "POUNDcri.nner", so he did in fact remove the poundsign. He's complaining about not being allowed to follow the rules with the slightest shred of humour.

Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 09, 2004, 02:11:41 PM
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My 2 second defintion for spawncamping.  Killing spawning skulks before they have a chance to defend themselfs (weather that means getting behind the hive or attacking the offending marine) with no short term intention OR ability to destroy hive resourses.

Therefore: you aren't spawncamping you are running throught the hive
and shoot one skulk to death because you have not killed spawning skulkS

you aren't spawncamping if are nearly finished building a PG in hive when you defend yourself getting attacked

you aren't spawncamping sighting for sieges in any case

you aren't spawncamping killing spawnings skulks to cover you two buddies with SG's laying waste to hive (if there is an onos or fade in hive than it is his faulth that skulks are getting wasted, he should be killing the attacking marines)

you aren't spawncamping kinfing DC's in the hive, unless you buckle down and start shooting skulks before you have a reasonable chance of acctually killing the DC's

You are spawncamping defending a building PG at two red lines in hiveroom (unless there are 1-2 other marines there building it)

You are spawncamping peaking out behind corners and shooting spawning skulks from a distance

You are spawncamping putting pistol shots into the hive one by one just so you can shoot more skulks there

You are spawncamping if you run in shooting spawning skulks, start knifing something getting off two slashes before each new skulk spawns to you can immediately kill them
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decent, but what if you went to the hive to kill there RT, and someone kills a skulk in the field, and then it respawns next to you... I can't kill that skulk, even if I was there first? I should just let it come and kill me or what?

also Adj, I agree with the vast majority of what you said.
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Yes you can kill that skulk, because you haven't yet killed any skulkS...  Also you have the intention of destroying hive resourses.  After killing the first skulk however you should pull out (since you know he will be respawning repeditively) unless you have knifed down the RT to the point where you actually have a good chance of killing it before you are killed (probably it would at least have to be in red to justify that point)...  You should really pull out even if you expect other marines to follow you in, since you don't have an immediate intention of destroying hive resourses (you need to WAIT for other marines, thus your intention is not immediate)

Like I have been saying the whole time... It is complicated enough however you define it that it needs to be an issue up to admin decernment.  And because it is a complicated issue up to admin decernment, the admins should be understanding to the fact that people will sometimes see the issue differently then them, or take a few times to really get what they mean in thier definition.

Even if you aren't showing the definition of "spawncamping" publicly, I think there should be an in depth definition accessable to the admins somewhere to prevent the phenomina that scooter blue made so clear was happening...  Different admins ban hammering with compleatly differenet perceptions of the issue.  Such actions not only confuse and threaten players, but they create bitterness among admins, expecially when someone trys to enact dicipline, and the player just turns around and quotes the actions of other admins pressing the belife that because other admins allowed their actions, they should be allowed to tow the line.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Necrosis on December 10, 2004, 11:50:28 AM
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He said he changed it to "POUNDcri.nner", so he did in fact remove the poundsign. He's complaining about not being allowed to follow the rules with the slightest shred of humour

There are ways of changing your name and there are ways of changing your name. I can give you an alternate scenario where someone would change their name to "POUNDwhat.ever" and it would have been done with an attitude.

Its fun to speculate, were either of us there though?
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Niteowl on December 10, 2004, 05:21:51 PM
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He said he changed it to "POUNDcri.nner", so he did in fact remove the poundsign. He's complaining about not being allowed to follow the rules with the slightest shred of humour.
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After the admins have experienced a bit of... less than sportsmanship like behaviour from folks who have broken the rules, the whole 'humour while following the rules but skirting it' is kinda tiresome. Just follow the rules and play.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 12, 2004, 12:11:02 AM
Why do you guys make a big deal about clan tags anyways?  They have been around the internet for SOOO long, and I have never heard of anyone complaining about them as advertizing devices before.  Sure they CAN be considered advertizing, but that is only a small part of the reason that they are used...  Its almost like not allowing military officials to call themselfs "Sergent John" or "Priviate Joe" because it is advertizing the army...  Its just a proclimation of status.

Sure you may not be impressed by the proclimation of status, but to make a big deal about it is just immature.  Let people feel good about themselfs because they are proud of thier clan.  What is so wrong about that?

I'm advertizing other websites in my sig, why am I allowed to say whatever I want, within reason, there when my ingame name can't be whatever I want, within reason?
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Mr.Ben on December 12, 2004, 06:38:41 AM
The thing is, you don't need a # to advertise something, the # is immaterial and people have things in their name which advertise servers or learning programs but of course they're allowed. The guides having an icon that advertises their program, everytime someone asks "what's that icon?" and they reply "i'm a guide" it advertises NSguides but of course that's perfectly fine by the rules.

If the # is part of your tag then i don't think it should be removed because it's part of a IRC channel. That's like me adding www. to the start of my name and an admin saying well www. is part of a website and should be removed even though i'm advertising nothing.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Necrosis on December 12, 2004, 08:10:52 AM
Creating such a rule will only mean people will insert swearwords before their name and then claim immunity because "ogm mah tag, j00 are discriminating, ololbbq!!11".
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Mr.Bill on December 12, 2004, 11:44:49 AM
this should be the rule.

"No marines may enter the hive during any point of the game because to many damn peope keep bitching about the damn thing instead of just enjoying the game."

THERE. I think THAT will fix it.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: devicenull on December 12, 2004, 03:54:23 PM
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The thing is, you don't need a # to advertise something, the # is immaterial and people have things in their name which advertise servers or learning programs but of course they're allowed. The guides having an icon that advertises their program, everytime someone asks "what's that icon?" and they reply "i'm a guide" it advertises NSguides but of course that's perfectly fine by the rules.

If the # is part of your tag then i don't think it should be removed because it's part of a IRC channel. That's like me adding www. to the start of my name and an admin saying well www. is part of a website and should be removed even though i'm advertising nothing.
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No #'s is not because of no advertising. The no # rule is there because the # in names screws up the server logs.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Grillkohle on December 12, 2004, 05:06:26 PM
I agree with Mr. Ben. :)

By the way, whatever happened to giving slotters the ability to cast map/kickvotes ?
I know it was taken away because someONE abused it, does that mean everyone has to be taken away the right because someone can't deal with the privilege ?
So much for that, I'm going back to WoW for now.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: a civilian on December 12, 2004, 10:36:00 PM
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No #'s is not because of no advertising. The no # rule is there because the # in names screws up the server logs.
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Then why doesn't anyone say so when this is being enforced, and why was MrGunner punished for changing his name to POUNDcri.nner?


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Creating such a rule will only mean people will insert swearwords before their name and then claim immunity because "ogm mah tag, j00 are discriminating, ololbbq!!11".
Yes.  Just like people will change their names to swear words if we allow them to choose their own names.

...
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Niteowl on December 13, 2004, 10:48:33 AM
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this should be the rule.

"No marines may enter the hive during any point of the game because to many damn peope keep bitching about the damn thing instead of just enjoying the game."

THERE. I think THAT will fix it.
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Elegant solution!
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: That Annoying Kid on December 13, 2004, 01:23:33 PM
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Quote
this should be the rule.

"No marines may enter the hive during any point of the game because to many damn peope keep bitching about the damn thing instead of just enjoying the game."

THERE. I think THAT will fix it.
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Elegant solution!
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LM will become seige only, no rushing!

VIVA LA REVOLUTION


niteowl can be the leader of the puppet seige only government!
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Keyser59 on December 13, 2004, 01:36:40 PM
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this should be the rule.

"No marines may enter the hive during any point of the game because to many damn peope keep bitching about the damn thing instead of just enjoying the game."

THERE. I think THAT will fix it.
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Nope, I got banned for spawncamping without ever being near the hive. I couldn't even see spawning skulks.  :blink:
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Mr.Ben on December 13, 2004, 01:49:52 PM
Nub down.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: That Annoying Kid on December 13, 2004, 02:15:15 PM
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Quote
this should be the rule.

"No marines may enter the hive during any point of the game because to many damn peope keep bitching about the damn thing instead of just enjoying the game."

THERE. I think THAT will fix it.
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Nope, I got banned for spawncamping without ever being near the hive. I couldn't even see spawning skulks.  :blink:
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Good point, we need to make it a 1000 unit distance away from all seige spots, that where there will be no camping whatsoever, and MS is untouchable unless the aliens can demonstrate the can end the game without camping.


okay seriously now, were getting a bit to off topic, lets attempt to rejuvenate the discussion before an admin does it for us
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: TOmekki on December 13, 2004, 06:02:11 PM
i too have found myself in a situation where we have been pushing towards the hive, (i have everyone muted because they make so much noise i cannot hear skulks with my crappy headphones) then i find myself totally alone in or near the hive room. i kill a few rushing skulks and then im being presented with the annoying challenge of either falling back (and propably getting killed in the process) or hold the position at least for some time. (edit: and be then accused of spawncamping)

now, what people fail to realise is that there are methods to prevent spawncamping from happening. for instance, get a decent lerk and you will never get spawncamped as long as hes alive. even the best marine cannot hold out against a hivecamping, spore-happy lerk unless he has a hmg or  jp.

skulks in general need to learn to scout ahead and parasite marines as they approach the hive room (or any other place for that matter), then ambush or something. its ridiculous that people stubbornly want to play the game as they see fit and not how it has been made. if you refuse to defend your vital objectives or come up with the proper counters to situations then no rule or plugin will help you win.

which brings me to another point, the umbra-spawn plugin. now there are situations where its good and to some extent evens out the odds. then there are situations where id rather see it go. for example:

marines want to siege a hive. every skulk that spawns gives the hive umbra (i think) and they are affected by umbra for several seconds, so effectively almost every skulk that rushes the marines has double hp. obviously this is not how the game was meant to work.

marines want to kill the hive node. this is just as valid as killing the armory or ip in ms. and you are bound to run into spawning skulks in the process. if theres 2 marines theres no way they can hold out against spawning creatures that have 180 hp, 1/3 of an lmg clip. almost as ridiculous is the "elec-spawn" plugin which i wont comment on any further.

oh, and i have plenty of experience on this matter, i have been spawncamped just as much as any of you here. take it lightly, if you get the marines out they will be back in a minute (better equipped) or they wont. if you cant kill them youve lost and you already did something wrong (or teams were just stupidly stacked, imo those kinds of games arent worthy of playing properly [read: lerk practice :))]).

on bs_:

it is everyones personal choice, it has always been, no? someone tell me why the attitudes started changing :S

i use scripts and im willing to teach anyone about them to the extent of my knowledge. i dnot think them as harmful or cheating, yes they give convinience (what a word) and yes some give an outright advantage (_special). i can play without them just fine as i use mwheel. a much bigger disadvantage is fps and hardware in general. i am at a disadvantage because my mouse is buggy and freaks out for no reason. im also at an advantage because i get 100 fps no matter whats on the screen. perhaps everyone should be restricted to fps_max 30 (if you have over 30 fps, TRY THIS and try to bhop) and ball mice to even the playing field? i think not.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: MrGunner on December 14, 2004, 05:22:07 PM
Don't forget that you aren't allowed to camp hive exits while your team is building sieges too as it is unfair.  The skulks should be allowed to chew on the turret factory and turrets while they are being built.  Heck how about just drop all guns before you leave marine start.

Just so I don't get banned this is a stupid joke.  The point though is that we are supposed to leave the decisions on what exactly the rules mean up to admins that have in the past banned people for assinine reasons with little to no warning at all.

Also I was just wondering if I should auth when I join the server seeing as how my consti icon could be construed as an advertisement.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 15, 2004, 11:52:16 PM
In my opinion, any time a skulk gets killed on a rush they would not have been killed on if they chose to do something asside from rushing they have not been spawncamped.  Spawncamping is when you are taking fire the moment after you spawn and you die before you have the chance to either retreat or attack (if they had the chance to retreat but rather died on an attack then they were not spawncamped; although obviously that is an issue compleatly up to admin judgement).  Just stay out of the damn hive if there isn't more than 2 of you, put up your PGs in outside hallways or close by vents unless you are REALLY REALLY well ninja'ed.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Niteowl on December 16, 2004, 01:44:58 AM
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Don't forget that you aren't allowed to camp hive exits while your team is building sieges too as it is unfair.  The skulks should be allowed to chew on the turret factory and turrets while they are being built.  Heck how about just drop all guns before you leave marine start.

Just so I don't get banned this is a stupid joke.  The point though is that we are supposed to leave the decisions on what exactly the rules mean up to admins that have in the past banned people for assinine reasons with little to no warning at all.

Also I was just wondering if I should auth when I join the server seeing as how my consti icon could be construed as an advertisement.
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Smarmy, grumpiness inducing type posts will incur likewise grumpiness towards you when you are on the server gunner.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Malevolent on December 16, 2004, 08:47:27 AM
If you read Scooter, Archi said it was ok. EDITED with link. (http://www.lunixmonster.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2353&view=findpost&p=34856http://www.lunixmonster.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2353&view=findpost&p=34856)
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Necrosis on December 16, 2004, 12:22:35 PM
TBH I was going to say virtually the exact same thing Hoots said.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: MrGunner on December 19, 2004, 01:23:42 PM
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Smarmy, grumpiness inducing type posts will incur likewise grumpiness towards you when you are on the server gunner.
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Hey remember that time I can't even get on the server because someone insta-perm-banned me with no warning the last time I tried to play there.  Yeah that was awesome.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: esuna on December 20, 2004, 08:20:57 AM
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Actually, what he said was "If other admins have wonderful posts like Uranium's they want to put in here, go right ahead," in response to Uraniums three page, informative, well thought out post.  I hardly think by "wonderful" posts he meant snide, threatening, one-sentence posts like:

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Smarmy, grumpiness inducing type posts will incur likewise grumpiness towards you when you are on the server gunner
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You have a real problem with authority don't you.

*section removed because of vulgerness * Hoots wasn't being threatening, he was stating a fact. If someone says something that pisses you off on the forums, it's probably also going to piss you off on the server as well.

You have a deep set inability to read and understand most things, don't you?



And now, to balance out Scooter-Blue's irrational, moronic attitude, i for one welcome hoots to this thread and invite him to make any comments he so wishes to. You know why? Because i respect hoots as a player and a good person, not because he's an admin. I personally would read anything that he has to say ** Another section removed**
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Crispy on December 20, 2004, 09:09:21 AM
I hardly think flaming's going to add anything valuable to this thread.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: That Annoying Kid on December 20, 2004, 02:13:00 PM
Swiftspear said it, and we've got carried away

SPAWNCAMPING IS WHEN YOU ARE GETTING SHOT AS YOU FALL FROM BEING SPAWNED AND HAVE NO CHANCE TO RETREAT / ATTACK. If you chose to attack instead of hiding close to hive and waiting for a teamate to spawn to attack with teamwork then it's your fault for getting mowed down by one of the good players who is on the LM who is in the hive.

My personal thoughts have always been hardcore llama spawncamping that is occuring to get higher on the scoreboard should be punished, and camping while attacking stuff, no matter how many people should be legit, as long as you don't shoot aliens when they are falling from being spawned.

Running into hive solo, knifing res node, and then killing a skulk that died in the field and respawned is legit, running into the hive and putting mines on each spawn point is a good definition of camping that will get bant [just pretend the no mines in active hives doesn't exist for the sake of the argument]
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: GrayDuck on December 20, 2004, 02:33:38 PM
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I hardly think flaming's going to add anything valuable to this thread.
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Crispy nailed it.  Have your opinions, debate, argue, but keep it all respectful.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Asal on December 21, 2004, 12:01:47 AM
I don't know how long this has been here, and I don't know whether what I say matters at all or not anymore.  But frankly, I'd like to put in my two cents.

When I joined this server, it had a reputation.  It was a big server, heck, maybe even famous.  But it was known for banning vets on small abuses, and for being fairly unlikely to allow new members to join the community.  

Now, heck, I came to LM for a reason, and for the life of me I can't remember it now.  But the reason I stayed was because I felt that no matter what reputation, and no matter what problems a server has, it's not about the server, or about the problems, or the admins, but the other people, the ones you play beside and meet, that make the server a COMMUNITY.

Maybe the admins are a little strict, I havent' been around too much.  But I know I'd be strict, I know from forum modding in other places what my rules are.  One warning, then action.  Frankly, that seems best to me.

Maybe the people are leaving, maybe the game is getting worse.  I dont' know, I don't play it to win all the time.

But I came to this place as a vet, and now I hold a res slot.  Heck with what may or may not be happening, I'm here to stay, because this isn't just a server.  LM is a community, and this community is what I have become part of, and here is where my friends are.  That includes people on both sides of almost every arguement, from the lunacy of MrBill to the strict enforcements of Uranub.

This is LM, and nobody can really change where it's going.  But you can definitely make a few friends as you ride the waves.

Edit:  Feel free to argue, but games are for fun, and for friends.  That's my view.  But then, remember.  I'm just a vet. ;)
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 21, 2004, 01:29:13 AM
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I don't know how long this has been here, and I don't know whether what I say matters at all or not anymore.  But frankly, I'd like to put in my two cents.

When I joined this server, it had a reputation.  It was a big server, heck, maybe even famous.  But it was known for banning vets on small abuses, and for being fairly unlikely to allow new members to join the community. 

Now, heck, I came to LM for a reason, and for the life of me I can't remember it now.  But the reason I stayed was because I felt that no matter what reputation, and no matter what problems a server has, it's not about the server, or about the problems, or the admins, but the other people, the ones you play beside and meet, that make the server a COMMUNITY.

Maybe the admins are a little strict, I havent' been around too much.  But I know I'd be strict, I know from forum modding in other places what my rules are.  One warning, then action.  Frankly, that seems best to me.

Maybe the people are leaving, maybe the game is getting worse.  I dont' know, I don't play it to win all the time.

But I came to this place as a vet, and now I hold a res slot.  Heck with what may or may not be happening, I'm here to stay, because this isn't just a server.  LM is a community, and this community is what I have become part of, and here is where my friends are.  That includes people on both sides of almost every arguement, from the lunacy of MrBill to the strict enforcements of Uranub.

This is LM, and nobody can really change where it's going.  But you can definitely make a few friends as you ride the waves.

Edit:  Feel free to argue, but games are for fun, and for friends.  That's my view.  But then, remember.  I'm just a vet. ;)
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I agree with most of what you said here.

The one ammendment I would make is to say that although fast action is nessicary, 'action' doesn't nessicarily have to be a perma-ban, exspecially for accidental or unintentional offences.

Like you say, it's a community, and thus I think it is strange that many members are getting 'you screw up once your banned' treatment.  Most people have bad days now and then, and most people make mistakes that may or may not push the limit.  

I remember once reading through one of the old PR bans in which someone was trying to defend thier actions that got them banned.  Because they were new they were kindof awkward in expressing themselfs and ended up contidicting statements they had made a couple times.  The powers that be jumped on it and reemed the hell out of this guy.  I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that you guys don't exactly go through an advanced trial process while you are banning people, I mean I have seen people banned bacause esuna accidentally misused the !admin command before; so if it is so possible for people to be wrongfully banned, why are you treating banned members like they are guilty until proven innocent and not the other way around?

I love the admins here, and respect them upmostly.  It's a great group of people.  But its hard to belive that the rare admin doesn't misuse thier powers occationally in the heat of the moment.  I've never seen it personally (I don't play on the server that much) but alot of people seem to belive they have from reading archi's servey.  Thus I conclude that the "We're always right because we say so" aditude is only hurting this server when it comes to public relation, because common opinons seems pretty clear that you might say your always right, but the public doesn't belive it.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: esuna on December 21, 2004, 11:36:27 AM
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I mean I have seen people banned bacause esuna accidentally misused the !admin command before;
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Hey now, i used the !admin command properly, it's there to request admin assistance on the server, which doesn't mean "ban from rcon without even bothering to check, nor talking to any other admins (bob) that were looking into it".

I never got to have my say on this issue, fool just washed over it, locked the PR thread and made another thread which was nothing but a blatant coverup for the fact that HE :Ded up, not me. I was not in the wrong, i did nothing but use !admin as it was intended, if anyone is to blame for being to hasty to ban without even bothering to check, it's fool, not me.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: Vinegar Ninja on December 21, 2004, 03:01:32 PM
well, actually when you say !admin, you should give a steamID, player name and a CLEAR reason as to whats going on all in that line.
However there wasnt an official "how to use the admin command" post made before. sooooo whatever.
Title: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 21, 2004, 04:06:23 PM
Quote
Quote
I mean I have seen people banned bacause esuna accidentally misused the !admin command before;
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Hey now, i used the !admin command properly, it's there to request admin assistance on the server, which doesn't mean "ban from rcon without even bothering to check, nor talking to any other admins (bob) that were looking into it".

I never got to have my say on this issue, fool just washed over it, locked the PR thread and made another thread which was nothing but a blatant coverup for the fact that HE :Ded up, not me. I was not in the wrong, i did nothing but use !admin as it was intended, if anyone is to blame for being to hasty to ban without even bothering to check, it's fool, not me.
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Sorry, I didn't really pay any attention to who's fault it was or whatnot, I wasn't trying direct blame at you, quite the opposite really.  The point still stands however, admin actions clearly aren't always flawless.