Author Topic: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS  (Read 18707 times)

December 02, 2004, 03:52:50 AM
Reply #40

Hopelessness

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I'm going to have to agree that scripts aren't that much of a problem. Weapon switching scripts are a hinderance, as they reduce  your ability to compensate for any changing conditions, missing, etc. Quite simply, the most effective thing is to use better key placement for your weapons.

3jump does make it easier to bunnyhop, but if you can't bunnyhop in the first place, you're not going to be able to with the addition of a mouse wheel or 3jump. (Note: I can't really bunnyhop either way except when practicing out of game) Either way, are you going to somehow block mousewheel jump too?

As for pistol scripting, if you don't already have great aim, it's a waste of ammo more than anything. If you do, then I suppose it's a slight advantage. And with special_ being taken out, I just don't see scripts being that much of an issue.

December 02, 2004, 06:57:59 AM
Reply #41

lolfighter

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[...]A pistol script, 3 jump or leap bite isn't faking skill, if they beat you with it then they'll beat you without it.[...]
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I won't try to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like "scripts don't matter at all" in other words. If that assumption is wrong, please tell me what it DOES mean. If that assumption is correct, then nobody should mind that their scripts don't work, because they'll be able to perform just as well without them. Heck, they should thank us. It's like a man walking with a crutch all the time until the day somebody kicks it away and he discovers that he can walk perfectly fine without it.

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[...]And with special_ being taken out, I just don't see scripts being that much of an issue.
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Currently though, mp_bs is what blocks special_. Deactivate mp_bs and you allow people to use special_. That's the worst part about mp_bs, that it's a single package: There are only two choices, opt-in and opt-out. You can block special_ without blocking everything.

December 02, 2004, 09:16:19 AM
Reply #42

Legionnaired

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3 jump or mousewheel scripts make all the difference in the world when bunnyhopping. You will, with some practice, quite literally never miss a skip. Hit the button a fraction of a second too early with only a button bound, and you stop dead.

No difference my foot.

I too was an adament player of Tribes 2, and while scripts caused a large detriment to the game when they first came out, people adapted to them, and ended up eventually creating scripts that canceled each other out. For example, early on you could make the   autoflare whiff by getting a lock, not firing, then breaking lock and getting another. Run the gunner out of flares, and get sweet tone on him.

So, then it so happened that you only flared if you had a missile coming after you. What was the counter? The auto missile script - as soon as you get tone you automatically launch a missile. People (at least those I played with) would stand on the top of a hill, jet as high as they could, get tone for a split second and fire, and still hit the bomber because the angle was too shallow between the bomber, flare, and shooter.

Scripts, at least the most common ones like that, changed the way the game was played, but it didn't destroy it. Instead, people adapted and got over it.

The debate over scripts comes down to what I call the essentialists and the purists. The essentialists see the game in terms of the basic, fundamental skills of shooting, biting, tactics and strategy, and see no problem modifying functions of the game. They see the absolutes, and pay no heed to the particulars.
The purists see the game as every aspect presented all at once, each one part of a delicate balance. They argue that when you change, or modify one, you destroy the absolutes.

Mr. Ben is an example of an essentialist, and U235 a purist. The problem does not involve individual scripts, it involves a simple assumption about the game itself: Are we going to give the developers absolute control over the balance of the game, or are we going to modify gameplay ourselves through augmenting already existing skills?

That said, neither viewpoint is fully wrong, and neither is fully right. They both have their valid points, but both also show some degree of ignorance.

Yes, changing some parts of the game will not affect it completely and a balance may be found, but in a game as delicate as NS, one change may break the whole game.

And yes, allowing no change will standardize the playing field, but in a game like NS where balance rests on a razor's edge, the slightest mistake by the playtesting team can break the game as bad as the worst scripts would.

Both of you are :D ing nuts :).

The solution to this is simple. We, as a community, the entire community of NS players, need to define the particulars of which scripts are acceptable and which are not. Is bunnyhopping a part of the game? Put it to a poll on the front of ns.org. If yes, then code in a _special key or a 3 jump key, and put it right next to the pop-up menu in the control bind section.

If no, then block any bind involving both ; and +jump.

Are leapbite and blinkswipe legal binds?
Yes - hardcode it in.
No - block any bind that has both +attack and slot* in it.

et. al.

Then we can get on to more important things, like fixing the fade/shotgun balance.

December 02, 2004, 10:40:25 AM
Reply #43

Quaunaut

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I've *never* heard of a script that can give you a advantage, except for the "press this to blink" script. Everything else I've seen is a advantagious bind.

For example: Mousewheel. I use this to BHop myself.  It gives me a much larger advantage than those using a 3jump script, because I can spam it 12 times in a second(or more), and they can only do it maybe 3 or 6 times.

Another example: The so-called "pistol script". AKA, just binding attack to the press and release of your attack key. Once again, a bind.

Also, as ben said, leap-bite scripts and blink-swipe scripts aren't used, and frankly, are about as worthless as you can make it.

Saying all scripts are bad is just as bad as when people say "Video games make killers."

And for those saying that they shouldn't mind to if they outlaw scripts or not, think about this: You spent a good hour or two working to get money for a MX1000, then someone saying you can't use it because it unbalances things. You CAN play without it, but you won't like it, or go down without a fight.

December 02, 2004, 10:43:51 AM
Reply #44

[Freemantle]

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When I played Tribes 2, I used Panama Jack's full suite. The problem was, the scripts were not really a buff when compared to the natural skills that the game requires. I was good at the disc and that's all that mattered.

Natural Selection is not that way. I am (by far) a lousy Fade. Put a shotgunner in the room and I am sure to die. I can't physically blink and kill as well as many of the people I have observed on LM (Lochness comes to mind). I just don't think there are enough purely-twitch skills in Natural Selection to make scripts a small issue.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 10:44:10 AM by [Freemantle] »
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December 02, 2004, 11:58:28 AM
Reply #45

Niteowl

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A script that drops a Defense Chamber and then tells your team that there's another DC active? That is customization. A button you can push that asks for a medpack and gives a text alert for the commander? Customization. A button that will switch you to leap, attack, then switch to bite in a thousandth of a second? That is NOT CUSTOMIZATION.
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Saying all scripts are bad is just as bad as when people say "Video games make killers."
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I don't think ura ever said ALL scripts. If you are indeed replyingto ura.
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December 02, 2004, 07:10:20 PM
Reply #46

Uranium - 235

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Thank you hoots, I've noticed that the last few replies come off as if you only read half my thread.

Panama Jack's scripts (While bloated and sometimes obnoxious) didn't include skill-compensators. I used em too because they were 100% customization. PJ's scripts didn't include a auto mine-disc script.

How about another type of scripting in another game? TFC. Same engine, right? Ever see the rocketjump scripts? Concjumpers? They could execute jumps with FAR greater precision then anyone who was doing it naturally could. I used to use them, then dumped them for my own skill. A player who is capable of a triple-blast jump without a script is a far better player then someone who has it done for them.

December 02, 2004, 07:28:59 PM
Reply #47

Hopelessness

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Except those games aren't NS. There seem to be two different arguments going on here. On one hand, some people seem to be implying that scripts are universally (In terrms of all games, not in terms of all scripts) bad, and the rest seem to be arguing over the validity of individual NS scripts.

The argument over specific NS scripts seems to have come down to just the 3jump script. As mentioned elsewhere, many people simply prefer the mosuewheel for jumping. Are you somehow going to block people from binding jump to their mousewheel?

And as for NS as a whole, I don't think that NS entirely fits into the whole "Scripts, if there are good ones, are amazingly imbalancing" thing. The RTS aspect just doesn't quite fit it. A single bunnyhopping skulk is going to be better than one just running, but he's not going to win the game. Likewise, a pistol scripting marine (If it even helps him much) will have a relativly small effect in the game overall.

December 02, 2004, 07:45:38 PM
Reply #48

Reasa

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Scripting in NS seems unnecessary, I really can't see any advantage to it, and if there is one it must be small however I consider it to be unfair.

I don't use any scripts, never have and never well, I don't even know how to do it and I don't really want to. I play just fine without them, and so should everyone else, you do not need some extra boost, whether it has a placebo effect or not.

Seems all the scripts are good for is causing arguments and casting doubt on a player’s skill. I have to wonder why the problem was not headed off and scripting was not disabled from the beginning of NS. Now that many people have them removing the function would be much harder.

To be concise, scripts should be removed from the game, you are not a developer, you should not take game play into your own hands, play the game the way it was meant to be played.

December 02, 2004, 08:05:51 PM
Reply #49

Hopelessness

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To be concise, scripts should be removed from the game, you are not a developer, you should not take game play into your own hands, play the game the way it was meant to be played.
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So the developers should dictate exactly how the game should be played? Does it somehow offend them if someone plays differently then how they personally would enjoy playing it the most? The developers are providing a framework for playing games. We're the ones actually playing.

When people come up with new strats, is that playing it in a way that the developers invisioned it? No. They're changing how they play the game to make it more enjoyable for themselves. And if the developers wanted to control the game so much, I could just as easily argue the opposite from the standpoint that they specifically left alien bunnyhopping in, and only recently did servers start choosing on their own whether they wanted to block scripts.

December 02, 2004, 08:05:56 PM
Reply #50

Quaunaut

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Scripting in NS seems unnecessary, I really can't see any advantage to it, and if there is one it must be small however I consider it to be unfair.

I don't use any scripts, never have and never well, I don't even know how to do it and I don't really want to. I play just fine without them, and so should everyone else, you do not need some extra boost, whether it has a placebo effect or not.

Seems all the scripts are good for is causing arguments and casting doubt on a player’s skill. I have to wonder why the problem was not headed off and scripting was not disabled from the beginning of NS. Now that many people have them removing the function would be much harder.

To be concise, scripts should be removed from the game, you are not a developer, you should not take game play into your own hands, play the game the way it was meant to be played.
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If the developer didn't want us to use scripts, THEY WOULD RESTRICT US FROM USING OR MAKING SCRIPTS. SIMPLY USING THE COMMAND "alias" WOULD BE MADE ILLEGAL. Notice, THEY HAVE NOT DONE THAT. Also note, that as for the sv_blockscripts, it turns out that ALL of the devs were against it, sans maybe one(Voog, and thats a maybe). Why did they implement it then? Because it was a highly requested feature.

Seriously here, half of you that are making these allogations seem to have never touched a script. The only scripts I use are for chatbinds(Roger that! Res tower or phase here! Orders? You don't see that everyday....thank God.), and otherwise, I'm without. But guess what? I don't look down on them either. You know why? They don't affect your skill. Theres no script in the world that could help you aim. Theres no script in the world to make you a better fade. Theres no script in the world that could be actually useful to make you blink/swipe or leap/bite. Theres no script in the world that is enabled in Half-Life that would give someone an unfair advantage. Using scripts is the way the game is meant to be played. If it wasn't, they would hardcode aliasing out, now wouldn't they?

December 02, 2004, 08:17:45 PM
Reply #51

Isamil

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Quan, lets look at a pistol script.

It allows you to fire 3(or more) shots from your pistol, at a rate that is faster then MOST PEOPLE can manage.  When most people try and fire a pistol like that they A.Can't fire that fast and B.They lose accuracy from the mouse jumping

The pistol script automates this.  I'd love to see how you can argue that a pistol script doesn't give you some advantage.  Yes, some people can do it without a script at all.  But those who can't can use the pistol script and get the exact same effects.

A 3Jump script, IMO should be built into the game.  When you factor in lag, FPS, etc, its sometimes not possible to bhop correctly even if you're perfect at it.

Edit for dubb:Well, like Uranub said, the pistol script is an advantage because it automates a process(firing the pistol rapidly without mouse jumping) that many people can't do normally.  I'm not saying there is any aim script or go faster script(well, actully there sort of is but it doesn't work to well).  I'm saying that the scripts can automate processes not everyone can do.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 08:25:53 PM by Isamil »

December 02, 2004, 08:17:58 PM
Reply #52

Dubbilex

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Going back to the pistol script:  if I can set up a script that allows me to shoot a single bullet with a downclick, and another with the release of that mouse button I will essentially be shooting twice as fast as I normally would be without that script.

Like U235 has said - I can't aim for crap if i have to click like a squirrel on speed to shoot that fast.  if I had ownership over a script that allowed me to shoot the same amount of bullets with less keypresses, that is an advantage.

No there is no "aim" script.  Nobody ever said there was.  However, scripts can make it easier to aim a greater number of shots, and ultimately cause more damage more accurately in less time.

If that's not an advantage, I HAVE NEVER SEEN AN ADVANTAGE BEFORE.


*edit* for ISAMIL: 3-jump Script blahblah
« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 08:23:46 PM by Dubb »

December 02, 2004, 10:15:20 PM
Reply #53

Hopelessness

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Sure. It's an advantage, but it has to be taken in perspective. Considering everything you can do to improve your play, a pistol script isn't going to be a game-winning thing.  Really. Being able to shoot your pistol faster  is probably not going to tip a fairly balanced game in your favor.

For individual improvement it's going to have much less of an impact, than say upgrading a video card to get a constant 100 FPS. And the script doesn't exactly require a monetary investment. Even so, the only scripts I care about using on a regular basis are ones for convenience.

December 03, 2004, 12:45:11 AM
Reply #54

rad4Christ

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Honestly, whatever pistol scripts or +3jump can do, mousewheel can to. I think the question is whether fast pistol firing and bhopping should be allowed at all...


But... let's keep this discussion focused on the purpose of the thread, slight deviations permitted, but start yet another scripting thread if you want to go into excruciating detial, but save us from meandering through it.

I think that admins need to be a little more communicative with warnings, and even when kicking adding the reason to the end. And personally, all bans should have been after a kick, unless a blatant problem. Yes, we need to clean our image of shunning skilled players, but that also means some of the skilled players need to realize this is a pub, and things are not going to be treated as CAL. RS and regs need to whine a little less about skill or spawncamping, or whatever, and focus on the atmosphere of enjoying the game, instead of nitpicking the rules to the point you have the Constitution of the US. IT IS A GAME. Enjoy it. Admins keep the crazies out, and regs keep the community going. But we all need to concede on some of our ideas of "the perfect LM community"



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December 03, 2004, 01:43:42 AM
Reply #55

Mr.Ben

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So what you're saying is that scripts being bad in other games makes them bad in NS? Go figure.

Lolfighter, the advantage scripts offer is so negilable that most peoples play isn't hampered at all by bs_1/0. Of course people who are used to 3jump spacebar bunnyhopping may have a hard time adjusting to mousewheel or a simple +jump but the script offers no more of an advantage than simply binding a key to mousehweel.

If we want to talk about advantages then lets talk FPS and speakers. Someone with a 100fps has a MASSIVE advantage over someone with 60fps, their gun fires faster, easier to bunnyhop etc etc. Speakers also have a massive effect on people, good speakers negate the need for MT to a degree and allow for you to pinpoint and track aliens movements easily. How about internet connection? I hear broadband gives a big advantage over 56k. The advantage from scripting is so small that it's almost non-existant, there are far bigger things to worry about if you want to level the playing field.

I've already said that you can't tell the difference between someone using a pistol script or not, you can't tell the difference between 3jump and mousewheel. So, if scripts are so usless why use them i hear you ask? We're talking preference here. That is ALL this boils down to. I want to be able to bunnyhop at top speeds and consistantly, i don't want to use a mousewheel which is a totally legit way of doing it because i'm uncomfortable with it. What's the alternative? A 3jump. Tell me why a 3jump is bad and a mousewheel is okay? It's because it's a script. So you see the advantage it gives you is allowing you to play with a config you're comfortable with.

For me not being able to bunnyhop whilst not actually effecting my score much effects my game, if i'm jumping a long and i lose speed it's annoying, it's annoying to not be able to string jumps together, it just throws my mojo off entirely and if i'm not comfortable then i play poorly. I'm far happier on a bs_0 server because i can settle in and just play properly.

Yes in the ideal world a 3jump would be built in and the devs could negate the need for most of these scripts but removing scripting all together isn't the way forward. Some people NEED scripting because they have poor hardware or are disabled, if you can't get 100 fps then you'll never bunnyhop properly, why should they be punished? Why should a disabled person who maybe cannot click as fast as us for xyz reason be punished? I do expect a 3jump to be included in future versions, it's something that has been suggested countless times and something that i know is supported by some of the devs.

Reasa, saying that scripts should be removed because it's not the way the game is meant to be played is silly, you know the devs could remove scripting all together but choose not too therefore scripting and customization is part of their overall vision. Also blockscripts is 0 by default.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 05:17:25 AM by Mr.Ben »

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December 03, 2004, 03:30:57 AM
Reply #56

JohnTheGarbageman

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Quan, lets look at a pistol script.

It allows you to fire 3(or more) shots from your pistol, at a rate that is faster then MOST PEOPLE can manage.  When most people try and fire a pistol like that they A.Can't fire that fast and B.They lose accuracy from the mouse jumping

The pistol script automates this.  I'd love to see how you can argue that a pistol script doesn't give you some advantage.  Yes, some people can do it without a script at all.  But those who can't can use the pistol script and get the exact same effects.

The only workable pistol script fires once upon depressing your firekey, and once on releasing, but only if you don't overshoot the RoF. For some reason it doesn't work either if you wait too long.

Why is it like this? Because the Half-Life scripting language was designed just as an extension of your keyboard, and intentionally made to not be able to macro complex actions (and when it attempts - like blink/swipe, those scripts are clumsy and useless). To make that possible without removing all freedom, they made the wait; queue - if you queue up too many waits, you can't give new input until they've all expired. So if you tried a 3-5 or even a 10shot pistolscript, you would be stuck or wiggling uncontrollably on the ground upon firing - even if your gun was empty. This is why _special is a big deal, because it circumvents wait; .

By the way, there is a _special metamod blocker, so mp_blockscripts 0 doesn't have to mean special_ would be unlocked.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 03:31:56 AM by JohnTheGarbageman »

December 03, 2004, 06:51:49 AM
Reply #57

Crispy

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So ^^ed off.

After writing a very lengthy reply on this topic the ^^ing EZ^^net pile of ^^ browser froze and I lost a good 1/2 hour of my life. Please leave this as it is as I'll come back and edit it when I've calmed down/EZInternet has been reduced to a pile of smouldering ashes...

P.S. There was also a powercut when I was here yesterday and I lost a very long email I was writing.

P.P.S. I applied to a job yesterday and when I got to the restaurant the Manageress pretended A: not to know me and; B: that they hadn't advertised for staff. When I asked here why she was sat waiting in an empty restaurant she said that she didn't have to explain her actions to me.

P.P.P.S. I currently have £-64 in my bank account and a fine for being overdrawn.

P.P.P.P.S. Life is fun.

[Edit] I know this is completely off-topic so please don't write posts which have no relevance to the topic in response. I know that's exaclty what I did but I do have every intention in editing it and not derailing such and important thread.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 06:54:35 AM by Crispy »
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December 03, 2004, 09:42:47 AM
Reply #58

Legionnaired

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YOU ARE ARGUING OVER WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE WHO CAN CHANGE WHAT IN A GAME.

THIS IS NOT A MINOR ISSUE, THIS IS A FUNDAMENTAL GAMING PHILOSOPHY THAT EACH PERSON HAS A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON!

THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF MY ABOVE POST!

This will NOT be resolved by arguing! We(The collective body of ALL NS players) need to sit down, put it to a vote, and agree to live with the outcome. Either hardcode in basic scripted functions, or hardcode them out for everyone and leave it to that.

The developers have taken a middle of the road choice in giving control to server operators, but have not resolved the issue. We need to put it to a general vote with the entire community represented, make the choice, bury the issue, and get on to fixing DMS/ Shotgun v. Fade gameplay!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 09:43:15 AM by Legionnaired »

December 03, 2004, 01:46:18 PM
Reply #59

Reasa

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Reasa, saying that scripts should be removed because it's not the way the game is meant to be played is silly, you know the devs could remove scripting all together but choose not too therefore scripting and customization is part of their overall vision. Also blockscripts is 0 by default.

I highly doubt scripting was or customization really had anything to do with their vision, the game itself is was surely enough.

What makes me mad is the main argument in defense of scripts seems to be that they don't give you any advantage or any "noticeable" advantage and you’re just as good without them. So then why even waste your time with them, if you can play just as good with out those extra 2 pistol shots, why even bother? Are you telling me your mindset when implementing it wasn't geared towards giving yourself an advantage?

But I really don't want to argue, this is the way I feel and not much well change that.

I like Legionnaired's idea, but unfortunately I don't think anything like that is going to happen.
The issue well most likely be left as it is for better or for worse.