Author Topic: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS  (Read 18709 times)

December 06, 2004, 05:10:24 PM
Reply #100

Guspaz

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rad4Christ,Dec 6 2004, 04:20 PM]It's my impression that MP_BS will always remain 1. If you want to discuss and inform the community on the legitimacy of certain scripts, by all means go ahead. I do agree with Keyser and the rest, certain scripts are absolutely harmless. But I still want BS set on 1. Why? Personal preference. I mean, that's what draws you to a server and keeps you there. Personal preference. And the personal preference at the servers management level is MP_BS 1. Just because players want to change it, does not mean LB has to. If you take issue, there are quite a few communities with BS 0 on them. I'm not trying to sound harsh, but you can't come into a community, and try to change the community to your personal preferences. You have to concede from time to time. I don't really care for the spawncamping rule mumbo jumbo, but I abide by it.

Why do I say this? Because I've said it, TAK has said it, and plenty of us are thinking it. if you want to discuss spawncamping or MP_BS, create another thread. This one is a GENERAL thread about things that the community needs to work on. So far, we back into the same old arguments, and I'm sorry, but we need to find adequate concessions to make these persistent issues come to a resolve, and we need to do it in another thread. Keep this one to the issues raised by Archi and his work, is the community dying?What is TLM known as in the wider community. What can we do to bring in fresh players and regs, not being biased to one skill level or another? Should we unban certain individuals that have broken the rules in the past and offer a clean slate? What can our admins/server do to communicate the rules in a clearer, concise way to ensure people understand and follow them?
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Your very argument there is right on the topic that I brought up earlier...

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Why? Personal preference. I mean, that's what draws you to a server and keeps you there. Personal preference. And the personal preference at the servers management level is MP_BS 1. Just because players want to change it, does not mean LB has to.
This attitude will kill the community. Admins should not HAVE a personal preference, and if they do, nothing should come of it!

You know what? As I mentioned earlier, I want mp_bs 1. But if the only reason that it is 1 is because of the admin's preferences, then a poll needs to be done, and the setting changed or not changed based on THAT. You said it yourself, this is a COMMUNITY. The admins doing things like this because of how they like it doesn't fit in with a community.

I'm going to reiterate it; being an admin means sacrifices, one of those is you might have to do things or put up with things you don't enjoy, if it's the will of the greater community.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2004, 05:13:54 PM by Guspaz »

December 06, 2004, 05:59:15 PM
Reply #101

Legionnaired

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I agree wholeheartedly with the last 4 posts.

December 06, 2004, 06:38:16 PM
Reply #102

Keyser59

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Okay, I guess it's my turn to air a little dirty laundry now.

As some of you may or may not know, I was banned four seperate times here, each for reasons which I thought were a bit laughable.

First time I got banned was for "hacking". I was smurfing and the entire alien team thought I was cheating so I got banned right away. No problem, I posted in the unban forums and got unbanned when they realized it was me.

Second time I got banned was for "lying". LB asked me if we had motion tracking, I said no (we didn't), 6-10 minutes later he joined our team and saw we did and I got banned. I think it was for a few days.

Third time I got banned was for "bad attitude". I remember when the admins llamaed a few players and proceeded to make fun of him. I said something to the extent of "just kick him, humiliating is bad form".  U235 said that scored a few negative points in the admins book. Other than that I wasn't really given any reason, but I guessed it was because I rarely chatted in game, and people thought I was anti-social or ignoring them or something. I also yelled at my marines when I commanded, but I thought that was generally accepted.

Final ban was for "spawncamping". If you watch the demo of me now, then yes, it is breaking the rules. But the funny thing was, the rules were updated right after my ban from "spawncamping" to "shooting anything in the hive" (technically, the skulks were out of the hive when they were rushing me anyways, but meh). At that time everyone was a little edgy about spawncamping so I made extra sure I wasn't, but mehx2.

I was banned for four totally seperate things on four seperate occasions, which is a bit curious. You'd think there would be some kind of pattern to my bad behaviour instead of violating each rule once.

December 06, 2004, 07:06:39 PM
Reply #103

Isamil

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I agree with all that Adj says.
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Same, expect I still think that spawncamping in general is just not fun, and shouldn't be allowed.  However, spawncamping while you're building seiges or something?  Fine in my book.

December 06, 2004, 07:10:51 PM
Reply #104

TheAdj

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"Not being fun" doesn't disqualify something from being effective and a valid tactic.  I bet many people would say it's not fun to face me as lerk but that doesn't mean I should be banned from lerking, does it?  Of course not, which is why "not being fun" shouldn't be an automatic reason to ban spawncamping.

December 06, 2004, 07:16:44 PM
Reply #105

Keyser59

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Dying isn't fun for me, the rules need to reflect that.

December 06, 2004, 07:48:31 PM
Reply #106

Necrosis

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I like it that Adj mentions my "don't like it, don't play" philosophy, because its a swift way of showing distaste for a server's rules. No polling, no questionnaire, just looking at the logs and seeing who left and when.


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Saying "We don't ban for skill" then kicking people who are skilled for other ill-given reasons is the same as banning them for skill, you're simply doing it by proxy.

I don't think player skill should be a mystical shield of ban protection. If someone is being a tard, they're being a tard, and should get the same punishment. Hell, in my pov better players should be punished harder purely because they should know better. If I screw up in a game, there's no chance of me saying "oh I'm new" or "my finger slipped" because noone would buy it. Forgiving of the newbs, exacting of the educated. Furthermore, if someone can't understand the "no advertising" rule then tbh can you trust them with any other rule? Rulebreaking is rulebreaking, no reason why some should be special cases. If I was #Nec.Rosis then I'd drop the # because its part of the server rules. Its easy as that.


Gorks were overpowered, got removed. Pancaking is seen to be an exploit, so its frowned upon. A good player can cope with these changes from server to server. Its no different in any other game where different servers might be running FFA, or TEAM DM, or OBJECTIVE play... you change your style for each game. NS is no different - you play as mercenary as you like on some servers, and on other servers you have to follow someone else's concept of "fair play". Yes, an experienced player knows how to pancake, but they can also read "no pancaking" and act on that instruction. Its not a matter of being out to get anyone, its a matter of the concept of "fair play". Also in this category are such things as structure blocking.

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Hitting RTs or cutting a hive down in fast fashion. The way the spawncamping rules are set up you can be banned for doing either or these.

Not by my reading, but perhaps I'm wrong? If you and your team rush a hive and drop all the skulks, then you're not likely to be spawncamping - its called endgame rush. If you sit in the hive entrance and pick off spawners... its hardly a rush.

Again, its like the difference between smashing peons en route to base, or smashing peons, setting up walls and turrets around their base, building up a pile of res, then finally after an hour doing something silly like trying to get 100 cruisers just to take out a cc.

I completely ignore built hives, but thats only because I can't take them down without help from the comm. Conveniently, I also think thats how NS is meant to be played. If I was a really really good NS player (ie someone finally gave me my beloved GL for once) then I'd avoid the hive because vs spawning skulks I'd have a hideous and unfair advantage. Its also the same reason I avoid the noob servers I started my gaming career on - its just not fun to beat someone who's incapable of beating you.



I agree with some of what Adj says, in that there should be a way to tactically stall the enemy - but imho thats what nodes are for. Camping the enemy base should NOT be considered a viable and fair tactic for this. I can agree that its weight against marines, but thats largely because (imho) marines have ranged weaponry and can camp in cosy little holes. Aliens HAVE to get into CC, which carries with it the risk of a telefrag, the fact you can only bite one person at a time, etc etc. An alien rushing MS gets a few bites in, maybe kills a rine, the comm hits beacon. Exception being the devour ip camper onos - he can sit there all day doing it.

A marine rushes the hive, shoots a few skulks, shoots a few more, gets some ammo and meds, rinses and repeats. For a rapid alien response, you're talking MC everywhere. Not likely.

Its not so much about "keeping marines from going into the hiveroom" but more "keeping one marine from systematically picking off spawning players before they react, without a view to ending the game"

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Admins should not HAVE a personal preference, and if they do, nothing should come of it!

Isnt that the point of running your own game? I mean, you choose the variables and switches YOU like? If it was purely about "running a popular game" then we'd be flooded by plugins and all sorts of tosh. If it was about "being fair to the playing public" then you might as well take NS off and put up X Wing vs TIE Fighter or X Wing Alliance, since they're virtually extinct now. Maybe I'm odd in my opinions, but seriously, isnt the point of your own server being the right to enforce whatever game conditions you enjoy?

The democratic process of real life revolves around the fact that YOU pay taxes, YOU vote for the leaders, and in return those leaders are obliged to keep YOU happy.

In the internet, you don't pay taxes to the leaders, you don't vote for them, and in return they're not obliged to keep you happy. Otherwise the path leads to madness, and you have people begging for Rome: Total War to be a football soccer sim with lasers. They can listen a bit if they want to, but noone is OBLIGED to, by any means.


On the other note, I myself have been banned and kicked from other games for exploiting/hacking/aimbotting/using the Hand of God, and I was banned from using my favourite tabletop army in my local store because I simply could not be beaten. I feel the pain of people who face hackusations. I think they're silly too, but come on, everyone faces hackusations, its part and parcel of online gaming.

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"Not being fun" doesn't disqualify something from being effective and a valid tactic

UNDERSTAND the difference between the rules of a game, and the spirit of a game. Unplugging someone's pc is an effective and valid tactic of defeating them at a pc game. Getting up from your chair at a LAN and shooting your opponent IRL is again a very effective way of ensuring your victory. Are either fun for the opponent? No. Are they how the game was meant to be played? Not likely.

Again, coming onto a privately run server, you accept that you have to follow someone else's concept of fair play. If you find their concept of fair play to be limiting and dull, then exercise free will and play elsewhere.

If you look at a rule and think "I better not do this" then you're in the right frame of mind to play on someone's server.

If you look at a rule and think "Ok its legal then as long as I don't do this" then you're really not in the right frame of mind to play on someone's server.

Rules are there to attempt to explain the spirit of the game. They're not there so that a player can find loopholes or follow the "letter" of the rules but avoiding the "spirit" of the rules.
Necrosis killed Holy_Devil with pistol
Holy_Devil: cheater

December 06, 2004, 08:38:53 PM
Reply #107

MrGunner

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Server rules has nothing to do with the fact that the # has been part of the #cri tag since 1.04.  It has nothing to do with advertising.  The only reason that this is a problem on the server is because of the admins dislike of us.  I mean how abot we have a rule that says that everyone has to play as NSplayer on the server.  Gee that would be so much fun.

Oh yeah and as for pancaking it was exploitive back when there was no energy cap and lerks could do it all damn day but nowadays if a lerk wants to not run out of energy the only time they will do this is when they are fleeing.  Plus the server runs mp_bs1 so it's not like people can use 3jumps scripts to spam it, and mousewheel spamming as lerk is ^^ty.  Plus most good lerks don't pancake that much anyway.  Adj just sucks.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2004, 08:41:52 PM by MrGunner »

December 06, 2004, 08:39:29 PM
Reply #108

Keyser59

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If you look at a rule and think "Ok its legal then as long as I don't do this" then you're really not in the right frame of mind to play on someone's server.

The problem with LM is that you have to think like this, or you will get banned. Adj got banned for playing lerk like he usually does. Believe me there is a fair amount of up and down movement in regular lerk play, you have to constantly think to yourself "oh crap I exceeded the speed cap on the lerk in the vertical direction I better tone it down or I'll get banned" or "oh crap I just killed that skulk in the hive I better step back a few feet or I'll get banned" or "oh crap I just hit that medpack bind 3 times in the last minute that was a bit excessive I better stop or I'll get banned".

That's the main dissatisfaction I'm seeing others exhibit in general.

EDIT: These are all perfectly acceptable on any other server, so if you don't know the "letter" of the law as necrosis said, you stand a good chance of being banned.

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UNDERSTAND the difference between the rules of a game, and the spirit of a game. Unplugging someone's pc is an effective and valid tactic of defeating them at a pc game. Getting up from your chair at a LAN and shooting your opponent IRL is again a very effective way of ensuring your victory. Are either fun for the opponent? No. Are they how the game was meant to be played? Not likely.

I think anyone here realizes that we are talking about something within the confines of a game here. Those examples are meaningless. Please give something more realistic.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2004, 10:16:59 PM by Keyser59 »

December 06, 2004, 09:56:46 PM
Reply #109

TheAdj

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You know Necrosis you're always quick to say "You need to understand this" and talk about something.  Well understand this:  Owning a server does not give you the ability to treat the people like trash, nor does adminning it.  When you have a community like LM does, the community at large should decide how things are run and the rules, it's not up the an admin's whim to decide what is good and what is evil.  Poor accountability leads to corruption and inefficiency, and that's what's happening here.  People feel like they can kick whoever they want just because of something they don't like.  

Being a good player isn't a shield.  My point is that people are being singled out for punishment BECAUSE they are good players, and since no one is "banned for skill" most aren't outright banned, an admin nitpicks and finds a reason to do so eventually.  I wasn't pancaking when I was banned, I was simply decimating the entire marine team because literally 2 people on the team could track a skulk, much less a celerity lerk.  "OH NOES PANCAKING LERK, HE MUST BE PANCAKING TO KILL THAT MANY MARINES", banned.  If you're going to ban for skill just do it and put that as the reason, don't ban people and give some lame excuse.  Be held responsible for your actions, state why someone was banned with pride, because as a good community oriented admin, you should want everyone to know why someone is banned, so that it reinforces what is desired and what isn't on the server.  Don't ban someone then use the silent treatment to cover up why you banned someone.  

When you're just running a server with yourself and a few others as admins, sure it's fine to run the server as you want to.  But when there's a large community on a server and supporting it, it's generally in the bests interests of those running the server to listen to the community.  Every single time you talk about this you use outlandish examples that are similar to the scum in the ns.org I&S forums.  "OGM LASER GUNS AND BUGGIES WITH SIEGE CANNONS LOLOLO", same garbage examples that you're using.  When there is large community support for something that isn't outrageous or not within the scope of the community's design, it's probably a good idea to listen and at least understand why they want something done or undone.

In your reply you state that nodes should be used to delay the other team.  How is killing the alien's hive node not using nodes to delay them?  They spawn, they try to kill you, you kill them, you kill the RT, it's that simple.  The point is this:  Aliens should be keeping marines out of the hive, allowing them in is a grave decision to make, since they can not only spawncamp, but destroy the RT and possibly the hive itself given time.  You as 1 marine can probably slow the aliens down with your mere prescence near the hive.  If aliens are dumb enough to rush at you 1 by 1, then they really do truly deserve to lose.  

Necrosis you're something called a Yes Man.  You sit behind the de facto standard, the status quo, and simply reinforce it by repeating the same thing over and over again without really saying anything.  Simply going along with what other people do without asking questions or attempting to alter something you think is wrong is how the most horrible things in the history of the world have occurred, while some of the best and most epic feats in history have occurred because some had the want to ask "Why?" instead of just going along with it.  Which ideology do you think is more effective in advancing whatever it's used in?  If you think stagnation and acquiescing to other's demands is progress, then I guess your way wins 100%.  In reality, asking questions and refusing to accept things simply because they're put to you as law is a far superiour method of improvement.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2004, 09:57:48 PM by TheAdj »

December 07, 2004, 04:08:53 AM
Reply #110

Isamil

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"Not being fun" doesn't disqualify something from being effective and a valid tactic.  I bet many people would say it's not fun to face me as lerk but that doesn't mean I should be banned from lerking, does it?  Of course not, which is why "not being fun" shouldn't be an automatic reason to ban spawncamping.
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Facing you as a lerk is fun Adj because theres always the chance we might kill you, or you might make a mistake.
If someone is sitting in a hive, memorized the spawnpoints, you can't really expect individual skulks to do anything.  On a pub you really can't expect amazing groupwork to stop this.  True, if it happens that all the aliens were dead and therefore they couldn't reinforce their hive, then they're kind of screwed anyway.  Its just not fun and very iritating to be spawncamped, and theres often nothing you can really do about it.

I think the spawncamping rules are a bit to tight, heres what I think they should be.

No spawncamping just to prolong the game.
No spawncamping if you don't have an objective in the hive that you can resonably expect to take out quickly(One marine trying to kill the hive RT, I don't see that as expecting to finish that quickly)
If you're doing something such as building seiges, or a PG, spawncamping is fine as long as you actuly build the seiges, PG, etc.
Running through the hive and killing skulks while you're there is fine, as long as you don't spend an exceptionally long ammount of time in there(Like, running through and stopping in the middle of the hive while running in circles slowly moving to the other side) and as long as you don't double back to the hive.


December 07, 2004, 06:31:20 AM
Reply #111

Guest Bacon

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-Allow spawn camping
-If the game is clearly lost, and the other team is spawn camping just to prolong it...do what the SC/Chess/etc pros do... F4. Its a clear loss. Give up. Start anew, and learn what you did wrong last time. The answer to your problems is so rediculously simple.

There is no "honor" in sitting in the spawn queue for 20mins.


(yes, there is an F4 button in chess...look harder.)

December 07, 2004, 06:58:29 AM
Reply #112

lolfighter

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Well, Necrosis may be a yes man, but at least he realises the situation he is in. In a modern democracy, we take right of speech as a given, for example. In here it is a privilege that I can wantonly remove if I feel like it, and there won't be a damn thing you can do about it. Good luck finding a court that won't laugh you out, and nothing short of a court ruling can take power away from those that own the server (LB) and those that he gives power to. The very fact that I have not banned you from the forums for spoiling my good mood all the time with these inane debates makes me a good admin, at least in that sense. I'm not beyond a little bragging as far as this goes. I can be a bad admin if you will. I don't have any particular desire to be so, but I know the procedure.

You don't go into your friend's house and start mouthing off at his wallpaper and carpet, his horrible choice of furniture, the poor lighting and that he never cleans up. Well maybe you do, but if he doesn't want your opinion, he'll tell you to shut up. And what do you do then? Either you keep mouthing off until he throws you out, and it's likely that you'll cease being friends at that point. Or you accept the situation as it is, and either stay and deal with it or leave.

If you decide to leave, though, you're doing nobody a favour by standing just outside the door yelling to him why you're never coming back and so is no-one else and you don't care if he throws you out because you were leaving anyway right after shouting at him some more oh and his girlfriend is ugly too.

Necrosis is right insofar as he realizes this premise. He can make suggestions, and the host can heed or ignore them. He can leave at any time he wishes if he no longer likes the party, but he doesn't have the right to enforce his will over that of the host.

December 07, 2004, 07:17:50 AM
Reply #113

Plaguebearer

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I was just thinking... isn't the way the spawncamping rule is set up now partly responsible for the slightly accelerated early alien game?  

Since marine players are afraid to go near the hive for fear of being spawncamper-banned, thee's no need for  the alien team to bother with such things as, say, defending the hive.
God, I'm old.

December 07, 2004, 07:36:03 AM
Reply #114

MrGunner

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How about instead of trying to fix the problem you just say that we're lucky that you haven't banned us from the forums also, and that not doing that makes you some kind of "good" admin.

December 07, 2004, 07:36:27 AM
Reply #115

Legionnaired

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Well, Necrosis may be a yes man, but at least he realises the situation he is in. In a modern democracy, we take right of speech as a given, for example. In here it is a privilege that I can wantonly remove if I feel like it, and there won't be a damn thing you can do about it. Good luck finding a court that won't laugh you out, and nothing short of a court ruling can take power away from those that own the server (LB) and those that he gives power to. The very fact that I have not banned you from the forums for spoiling my good mood all the time with these inane debates makes me a good admin, at least in that sense. I'm not beyond a little bragging as far as this goes. I can be a bad admin if you will. I don't have any particular desire to be so, but I know the procedure.

You don't go into your friend's house and start mouthing off at his wallpaper and carpet, his horrible choice of furniture, the poor lighting and that he never cleans up. Well maybe you do, but if he doesn't want your opinion, he'll tell you to shut up. And what do you do then? Either you keep mouthing off until he throws you out, and it's likely that you'll cease being friends at that point. Or you accept the situation as it is, and either stay and deal with it or leave.

If you decide to leave, though, you're doing nobody a favour by standing just outside the door yelling to him why you're never coming back and so is no-one else and you don't care if he throws you out because you were leaving anyway right after shouting at him some more oh and his girlfriend is ugly too.

Necrosis is right insofar as he realizes this premise. He can make suggestions, and the host can heed or ignore them. He can leave at any time he wishes if he no longer likes the party, but he doesn't have the right to enforce his will over that of the host.
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No, we don't badmouth our friend's hosues.

However, if one of our friend's roomates askes 50 of his friends what could be changed to make the house better, and most of them think that the carpet needs changed, he has no right to say "It's my house, how dare you tell me to change!"

This thread has given us the right to speak our mind about the problems facing the server and the community. Archi opened a can of worms, and the recent poll in the spawncamping thread in the soapbox shows that most members would like the spawncamping rules rolled back some.

I think in reshuffling the community, we should look at reshuffing the admin staff as well. Ban-happy admins aren't fun for anyone. Admins like HD, Archi, formerly Ness, and recently Rad4Christ make the game fun, because they make their presence known without actually using kicks, bans, or other measures to affect gameplay except when needed.

I wonder if the admins that were mentioned the most in the anonymous complaints are those with the highest ban count, or at the very least, the ones that do the most saber rattling.

December 07, 2004, 08:22:09 AM
Reply #116

ebnar

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having been apart of the admin bureaucracy, i can honestly tell you that this thread won't go anywhere.

about reshuffling legion, they already started. me and 6 admins that none of you ever heard of because the never came onto lm were removed. progress is being made!

December 07, 2004, 08:52:09 AM
Reply #117

SwiftSpear

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Arriving on this scene much later than everyone else, and having a more or less nuetral opinion on all the issues discussed I'm going to add my $0.02 to this thread...  Firstly I'll aplaude Archi's efforts to the highest degree, and say that I wish that I had been around this community more of the time you have been, I have always loved this community dispite it being somewhat of an enigma to me and I'm happy to see people who are dedicated to keeping it alive and well, whatever be the cost.  That being said, I don't think the essence of the issue here is really a few rules that need changing.  Rules like blockscript or no spawncamping are issues of preferance, and while I may or may not disagree with the rules themselfs, it isn't the rules that are causing the problems, it is the manner with which they are being upheld.

The logic behind first offence bans is compleatly lost to me, expecially perpetrated by any comunity that acctually wants to propegate its existance.  Myself coming here, I just happened to be the perfect candidate for a linux monster regular, naturally unassuming, non volitile, non script user; I have a malable gameplay style that was easily adaptable to the new conditions.  However, it should go without saying, not everyone is going to be able to break every habit in one day, least of all indoctrined stat whores.  But that doesn't change the fact that LM is one of the beacon communities of the NS universe, and really anyone who is anyone has at very least been banned from here at some point.  It always struck me as somewhat odd that in a comunity with so many hardasses high up, being a hardass could be such a dangerous thing.

Long story short, I think the essence of the issue is that something in your system is pissing people off, and you were just unlucky enough to have pissed off enough people with regardable status that your reputation of a comunity has degraded under the wheight of thier combined voiced opinions.  I think it is commendable that the leadership of this community is trying to be a fair judicial hammer among the high ranks as the low ranks, but the more I hear about it the more I am convinced that at least some of you guys are overcompensating just a tad...  The point is, people with weight to thier words feel like they have not been treated civily here, and I'm inclined to think that for at least some of the time they are probably right.  I know that I rarely recommend LM to new players simply because I doubt the ability of your average new player to stay a member of LM for any ammount of time simply because of the strictness, which often extends to general intolerance, of the enforcement of rules on this server.

I really had nothing to do with the whole thing, but to me when I hear about controversy over the legitimacy of a civ's membership in this comunity, I get peeved off.  Have you encountered this guy in the forums at all?  he is one of the least malicious, slowest to anger, people I have ever seen online; who just happens to have increadible skill in the game of NS.  If he did something that was in the grey area of the rules it was that was the thing that seemed the best thing to do at the moment.  If you were to present me the clearest evidence available that there was even the slightest malicious intent in his actions against the players the were perpetrated against, the server, or the server rules, I would not belive you.  At some point you have to make a distinction between people as people and people as entities able to follow arbitrary rules.  Intentions do matter.

All in all, my unwanted advice as of the best way to repair the apparent damage that this comunity is doing to itself.  Never issue a permaban that isn't consented to by the entirety of the admin staff, and gauge people based on intentions as much as actions when considering admin action.  After all, one of the recurring themes here is LM as a comunity as much as LM as a NS server.  Refrain from banning people that haven't technically broken any rules even if there intentions were to push the line, and if for some reason the current rules don't work right for that system, redefine them and reclarify them so that confusion is prevented.  The goal here should be to encourage people to adhere to your preferred style of play on your server, not to make people feel like they are being punished for thier indoctrinated playing style.
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December 07, 2004, 11:18:33 AM
Reply #118

Crispy

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December 07, 2004, 11:48:01 AM
Reply #119

That Annoying Kid

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having been apart of the admin bureaucracy, i can honestly tell you that this thread won't go anywhere.

about reshuffling legion, they already started. me and 6 admins that none of you ever heard of because the never came onto lm were removed. progress is being made!
[snapback]35438[/snapback]

wait, 6 other admins got the ax as well as you?

I'm fairly confident I know the vast majority of people in this community, so who else got removed?


QUAN, you had a point to make did you not?

[edit]
olo, looks like quan got bant
[/edit]
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 12:51:13 PM by That Annoying Kid »
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