Author Topic: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS  (Read 18728 times)

November 29, 2004, 12:02:54 PM
Reply #20

Necrosis

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I don't think anyone's about to ban you for a statement, so long as its not a flame.

My opinion is covered in the big text file, I can see bits and pieces of my viewpoint there.

Ban system works, the only real problem is when people decide that the server rules are dumb and therefore feel exempt to following them. Justification of server settings/rules etc is all very well but lets not forget the example of the NS.org forums - one thread over 30 pages long full of a circular argument. Some people will not be happy with a "bs_1" server on pure principle, and will not accept any argument against their viewpoint. You can't have a mature discussion with these people.

I always thought it was to LMs credit that the banhammer is wielded against the nub and the elite with equal vigour. Its just the scores of nameless griefers never make a thread in PR about it, or run off to the NS.org forums to start a quest for the holy grail. Sure, some of the NS community will think "ogm tehy are banning teh clannorz" but anyone who's been on the server knows its not the case.

Look at servers where clanners have wilfully been banned on sight. They're clearing all their bans because they're dying. Yet LM is still pretty full and has a community with a broad range of skills, despite the propaganda of being a banhappy server. I'm not saying the server is perfect, but on some level SOMETHING is being done right.

As for the downward slide in NS gaming, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of a less than exciting B5, to the point where if I have a spare 15 minutes I'd rather blast through C&C than have a formulaic and stilted game. In fact I'm taking a break from C&C now, go figure.

I'll say this for LB and the admin team, I remember a game where I threw a hissy fit because I believed that we were being horribly spawncamped with the game being dragged out. Now, I wasn't banned, I wasn't griefed, I wasn't called a noob.. we had a rational discussion afterwards, shared our viewpoints, and it was all settled amicably. So anyone who picks up a line where LB is the powercrazy admin of banhammering doom, and means it SERIOUSLY, is working on a flawed premise in my eyes. Not unless a switch has been flicked sometime recently. And yes I have played games alongside the Onos.

"<Anonymous37> You wouldn't come over as a guest in his house and then whine that his "no feet on the couch rule" is lame and he should throw it out"

Gold star for that person. I know some people don't like the concept of "my way or the highway" but thats how the world works. NS is made the way Flayra wants it, LM run how LB likes it run, Star Wars is made as Lucas sees fit. Sure, we might not all like how it works, but that doesn't give us any real right to having them change it to suit us.


Anyhow, roll on B6. Hopefully it'll break up the formulaic play and make things a bit more enjoyable for us all.





Edit - I have no beef with Mal (not on my end), tbh it was fun to have a fellow person who suffered slotkicks and having to stay awake at unholy hours to get into a game. But I don't run the server. Fair enough I'm not on the server much anymore but jobhunting, dull play, and 7am starts mean I can't afford to stay awake late at night for sporadic gaming sessions of varying enjoyment.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2004, 12:18:39 PM by Necrosis »
Necrosis killed Holy_Devil with pistol
Holy_Devil: cheater

November 29, 2004, 12:46:15 PM
Reply #21

TheMunch8

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The servers that are clearing bans are *not* dying.  NSA has over 4 servers, and are full 24/7.  If you call that a dying community, then what community is thriving?

November 29, 2004, 02:34:44 PM
Reply #22

Reasa

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Well I've been away all weekend so I missed all of this frustration releaseing, but I'll add a few comments on the subject.

1st: excellent job Archi this looks like it took allot of time, but I think it was needed.

2nd: Pertaining to the PR forum I have to say in all honesty that it is very efficient, and the admins who I have dealt with personally were all very understanding and helpful. Having been un-banned twice I think I can say this with some weight.

3rd: The server community is great, it's the main reason why the only server I normally play on anymore is LM. Period.

4th: Spawn camping is the most annoying thing ever when it's happening to you, but when I reason with it, it's simply a very smart tactic to use. However if it is such a problem, why not as Mr. Ben suggested, add the umbra spawn thing, ether way people are going to complain, this way just seems less painful.

5th: I think the servers admin population limit has been hit, time to upgrade, or hit the delete key a few times. Just my personal opinion.

6th: *Shakes* LB could lighten up a bit more....maybe play marines once or twice, not do the auto assign thing so much....Just a thought...or a thought about a passing thought, which I might not have even had at all...*Shakes*

November 29, 2004, 07:36:17 PM
Reply #23

devicenull

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The servers that are clearing bans are *not* dying.  NSA has over 4 servers, and are full 24/7.  If you call that a dying community, then what community is thriving?
[snapback]34524[/snapback]

I know you wanted us in the other thread, but I'll respond here.

IMO, NSA is popular for all the custom plugins and maps.  Pretty much anything I can think of is on their server ;)

November 29, 2004, 08:08:14 PM
Reply #24

Isamil

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NSA is popular because of the player count.

If a CS nub tries a mod, what are they going to do?  Filter servers by players.  Even though NS sucks with to many people, thats where most of the nubs are going to go, big servers.

November 29, 2004, 09:39:00 PM
Reply #25

DiscoZombie

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one thing that saddened me about LM is how I never got a res slot.  taboo subject, etc, but back in I think march through like may, I played 2 to 4 hours every day, hung out in IRC whenever I was home and not in NS, posted here occasionally, and was basically ignored... I remember Lito telling me he was petitioning to get me a res slot, nothing came of that (I appreciate the thought, man)... :(

I still wonder if I'm on someone's **** list.  This is still the only *anything* in any gaming community I was ever banned from - even if it was only for a few hours in the forums.  That was for posting a response in a thread about why people get so PO'd at getting FF parasited.  I agreed that it was a stupid thing to do and against the rules, but could not for the life of me see why it was worth getting bent out of shape over unless a certain person or set of people are doing it chronically.  I essentially said someone or another was being antisocial for raving militantly against it.  I felt it was exceedingly ironic that I was banned for this.  Getting flaming mad over people who do something childish but essentially harmless?  OK.  saying it's an overreaction?  bant.  

definitely made me feel even more alienated and put the last nail in the coffin, so I stopped playing NS for several moons.  now I pick it up once in a while, always on LM, because I still like the atmosphere - I always know what to expect, I know the people, I know who's good at what, etc... but I still feel like I'm playing under some kind of iron curtain when I *am* around... have to watch what I say, etc...

and by 'watch what I say' I don't mean 'restrain myself from flaming' because I'm not the type who would ever even be tempted to do that.  I'm an extremely casual NS player.  if someone's being an idiot on purpose and won't stop, I'll report them, because I respect the rules, and think they make the game more fun.  I just think there's a definite vibe about who can get away with saying what and who can't in this community.  

I respect the ban list with regards to gameplay infractions.  if it wasn't for enforcement of gameplay rules, LM would be just another server and none of us would love it.  it's the alienation of seeing some people get away with things other people can't that really sticks in my craw.  not to make it sound too much like a relationship, but I bet a lot of us non-res slotters would feel a good degree of closure if the server just went private for admins and RS ppl, and the rest of us shlub regulars could see in broad daylight that we really weren't wanted.

November 29, 2004, 11:47:40 PM
Reply #26

TheMunch8

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The servers that are clearing bans are *not* dying.  NSA has over 4 servers, and are full 24/7.  If you call that a dying community, then what community is thriving?
[snapback]34524[/snapback]

I know you wanted us in the other thread, but I'll respond here.

IMO, NSA is popular for all the custom plugins and maps.  Pretty much anything I can think of is on their server ;)
[snapback]34540[/snapback]


Quote
NSA is popular because of the player count.

If a CS nub tries a mod, what are they going to do?  Filter servers by players.  Even though NS sucks with to many people, thats where most of the nubs are going to go, big servers.
[snapback]34542[/snapback]
NSA classic server has no plugins besides a reserve slot.  no custom maps on that server.  The combat server is another story.  And newbies go to big servers, not just 'nubs' as you call them.  
I like LM for the Blockscripts, cause it gives more of a challenge.  Its not fun to get pistoled as a skulk immediatly with 5 bullets.  etc etc.  I have fun explaining the game to people who don't know it once and a while.  Not counting how hard it is to get into LM when i want to play. :-p

November 30, 2004, 12:29:35 AM
Reply #27

Leaderz0rz

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thats the reason for teh command, hitting a button and shooting off 5 rounds from your pistol is not a skill, its just dumb. with it off, people complain and cry about people who can auctaly fire 5 pistol shots rapidly and call them a script whore. so i think its better with the command on, it just makes people not able to assume as much.

November 30, 2004, 12:44:03 AM
Reply #28

TheMunch8

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thats the reason for teh command, hitting a button and shooting off 5 rounds from your pistol is not a skill, its just dumb. with it off, people complain and cry about people who can auctaly fire 5 pistol shots rapidly and call them a script whore. so i think its better with the command on, it just makes people not able to assume as much.
[snapback]34564[/snapback]
Sometimes i am in the mood for scripts, and sometimes I am not :-p  I think it has its uses, and LM is one of the best servers that has it enabled.

November 30, 2004, 05:49:38 AM
Reply #29

CorvusX

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Wow, good job Archi!

Some of the points in there I agree with, others I missed, and yet others I can't comment on.  Ah well ^_^

November 30, 2004, 11:22:09 AM
Reply #30

Quaunaut

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I don't think anyone's about to ban you for a statement, so long as its not a flame.

My opinion is covered in the big text file, I can see bits and pieces of my viewpoint there.

Ban system works, the only real problem is when people decide that the server rules are dumb and therefore feel exempt to following them. Justification of server settings/rules etc is all very well but lets not forget the example of the NS.org forums - one thread over 30 pages long full of a circular argument. Some people will not be happy with a "bs_1" server on pure principle, and will not accept any argument against their viewpoint. You can't have a mature discussion with these people.

I always thought it was to LMs credit that the banhammer is wielded against the nub and the elite with equal vigour. Its just the scores of nameless griefers never make a thread in PR about it, or run off to the NS.org forums to start a quest for the holy grail. Sure, some of the NS community will think "ogm tehy are banning teh clannorz" but anyone who's been on the server knows its not the case.

Look at servers where clanners have wilfully been banned on sight. They're clearing all their bans because they're dying. Yet LM is still pretty full and has a community with a broad range of skills, despite the propaganda of being a banhappy server. I'm not saying the server is perfect, but on some level SOMETHING is being done right.

As for the downward slide in NS gaming, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of a less than exciting B5, to the point where if I have a spare 15 minutes I'd rather blast through C&C than have a formulaic and stilted game. In fact I'm taking a break from C&C now, go figure.

I'll say this for LB and the admin team, I remember a game where I threw a hissy fit because I believed that we were being horribly spawncamped with the game being dragged out. Now, I wasn't banned, I wasn't griefed, I wasn't called a noob.. we had a rational discussion afterwards, shared our viewpoints, and it was all settled amicably. So anyone who picks up a line where LB is the powercrazy admin of banhammering doom, and means it SERIOUSLY, is working on a flawed premise in my eyes. Not unless a switch has been flicked sometime recently. And yes I have played games alongside the Onos.

"<Anonymous37> You wouldn't come over as a guest in his house and then whine that his "no feet on the couch rule" is lame and he should throw it out"

Gold star for that person. I know some people don't like the concept of "my way or the highway" but thats how the world works. NS is made the way Flayra wants it, LM run how LB likes it run, Star Wars is made as Lucas sees fit. Sure, we might not all like how it works, but that doesn't give us any real right to having them change it to suit us.


Anyhow, roll on B6. Hopefully it'll break up the formulaic play and make things a bit more enjoyable for us all.





Edit - I have no beef with Mal (not on my end), tbh it was fun to have a fellow person who suffered slotkicks and having to stay awake at unholy hours to get into a game. But I don't run the server. Fair enough I'm not on the server much anymore but jobhunting, dull play, and 7am starts mean I can't afford to stay awake late at night for sporadic gaming sessions of varying enjoyment.
[snapback]34523[/snapback]

As to a specific line- "Anyone on the server knows that we don't ban clanners", I guess you haven't thought of me, Malibu Stacey, Leggionnaired, or anyone that doesn't look at clanners as a whole as bad people. Its obvious LM hates clanners, and I think its BS- and I've played on the server just as much, if not more, than 90% of the community. Malibu Stacey, when he wasn't banned, was there even more than me, and after 4+ months, STILL never got his RS, but instead, was banned for something he said in another channel altogether. And he was one of the prime things that made the server a better place, because unlike most of you, he believed that if people knew about the problems, they'd try and fix them. Sadly, because he had a vet icon and was a known clanner, no one listened to him. And because I am a known clan sympathizer, and go about things in a crude way, no one listened to me. The only reason people listened to Archi is because A: he's an admin, and B: he basically kissed ass to get them to say things(no offense Arch <3). I WAS telling everyone 2+ months ago how LM needs to clean itself up badly, and learn its old role all over again, because I knew that the regulars weren't liking it as much overall- especially when so many were leaving for piss poor reasons.

It just isn't right that we have to put up with BS rules at a place that didn't used to have them. Because as your anology from 37 about "You wouldn't go into someone's home and say the no feet on the couch rule was lame", I could equally say you BETTER say somethings wrong when you go into someone's house and find the dad raping the daughter. Sure, its a rule that she must get raped every day, but is it right? No, not even if she enjoys it. Saying we should just abide by rules doesn't make anything better.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2004, 11:25:05 AM by Quaunaut »

November 30, 2004, 12:54:44 PM
Reply #31

Necrosis

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I can see your side of that. Its like the old argument against the conscientious objectors during any period of war.

If you believed that that was the case, then yeah I can see why people would have to speak out, but to take your analogy further, if you just shoot the father then you've broken a law too, and should be punished. The solution is to report the father to the authorities and not take matters into your own hands.

So for an equivalent I would have suggested that anyone with issues on management/admining/etc should either try for a thread on the subject or approach people in IRC and ask for a private convo in order to voice an opinion.

Kudos that you get your point across without having to rant, btw.
Necrosis killed Holy_Devil with pistol
Holy_Devil: cheater

November 30, 2004, 01:29:10 PM
Reply #32

Legionnaired

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Hmm. What if we took a week and only banned for serious asshattery, temporarily suspending the gameplay-fixing rules?  We could see if spawncamping and commchair blocking really causes such demonic forces to be released on the server.

If it does, then Quan loses, the rules stay, and we have evidence they are needed.
If it doesn't, then we get a server better than before.

I'm good either way, we get positive change or positive quan humiliation :D . :) (j/k, wvu Qnut)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2004, 01:33:33 PM by Legionnaired »

November 30, 2004, 06:27:23 PM
Reply #33

Nuketheplace

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Legionnaired I like your idea.  To me the idea of a perma ban is a little harsh for one infraction.  I understand why a reg would get banned for spawn camping or recycling base, but perma banning a random puber for doing something that is common on other servers seams a little harsh.  This is especially true after Steam came out and people can no longer read the rules while joining.  I vote for a week temp ban on pubers who brake the rules and only use prema bans on complete jerks and res sloters who knowingly broke the rules.  I know I'm not a admin, but that method seams a little more fair to me.

November 30, 2004, 07:19:33 PM
Reply #34

Quaunaut

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Legionnaired I like your idea.  To me the idea of a perma ban is a little harsh for one infraction.  I understand why a reg would get banned for spawn camping or recycling base, but perma banning a random puber for doing something that is common on other servers seams a little harsh.  This is especially true after Steam came out and people can no longer read the rules while joining.  I vote for a week temp ban on pubers who brake the rules and only use prema bans on complete jerks and res sloters who knowingly broke the rules.  I know I'm not a admin, but that method seams a little more fair to me.
[snapback]34702[/snapback]

I too agree, and am willing to put myself up for public humiliation!(its fun!)

December 01, 2004, 06:02:08 PM
Reply #35

Uranium - 235

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Archi didn't want us posting here because, I think, he wanted to avoid any acrimony between the admins and the players, and to stop from any he-said she-said finger pointing. That's not why I'm putting this here. I could very well make a brand new topic for it, and I will if you want me to Archi, but this is very related to the discussion at hand and I felt like throwing my $0.02 in. (If you are really intent on deleting it, Archi, at least just hide it so I can use it later. It took me like half an hour to formulate and write this out).

Blockscripts. I'm 100% against most forms of scripting in NS. I have a little story about this first...


I played Tribes 2 up until it began to stagnate and players became disinterested. Tribes 2 had a very open, very advanced, and very in-depth scripting engine. While not only did this scripting access open a new level of customization never before seen (How many games do you know of that allows you to implement your very own F-16-style fighter HUD that WORKS?), but it also opened it to exploits.

One of the most popular scripts for T2 was Automissile and Autoflare. For those that don't know, missile launchers worked like this:

You acquire the target on the launcher, and wait for a full-on lock on the vehicle or player. The player that you're targeting, or everyone in the vehicle, would then get an audible alert that roughly meant 'You're boned'. Upon a full lock, the fired missile would track into the target. The target then had to throw a flare grenade. This meant that only vehicles with free-firing player mounts could throw flares. Vehicles like tanks, where players couldn't fire their own weapons out, couldn't throw flares unless a player jumped out. One of the biggest threats was the Bomber. Bombers had a tailgunner, a heavilly armed and armored player who would fight off interceptors and toss flares. Good tailgunning was an art. You had to have very steady aim, concentration, and coordination. In a large fight against skilled players, tailgunning could be an overwhelming task.

Enter Autoflare. Autoflare took away half the job of tailgunning. Your player would, upon getting locked on, toss a flare grenade for you. Just like that. The task of flaring then took less concentration and you could focus more on important tasks like shooting other players. Further adaptations of autoflare would level your interceptor, hop you out and toss a flare (Since interceptors weren't free-firing platforms) and get you back in. Pretty soon nearly 75% of the community was using autoflare, and it was impossible to accomplish anything with missiles, since even the slightest lock would cause fireworks to shoot all over the place.


Scripting in Tribes 2 was entirely about 'customization', but it was also open to exploits like that. There were scripts that would automatically rangefind on heavy weapons for you and adjust the angle for pinpoint precision. The highly skilled players (Myself, for one) never needed these scripts, and could manually rangefind a mortar without even a crosshair. Scripting, in a way, bridged the gap between the highly skilled and the unskilled, allowing the stupidest newbie to automate half the processes in the game and instantly up their precieved skill level. While I loved many scripts in Tribes 2 (VectorHUD for one, the F-16 cockpit HUD I mentioned earlier) I also felt that they were far too easy, almost playing the game for you.


Then move to NS. I can bunnyhop with some degree of success, for a time. I've never used a 3jump script in my life. The saddest part? I can't bunnyhop as fast as someone using 3jump, but I do it on timing and skill. Now who's the better bunnyhopper? How about the pistol? Emptying the pistol in a couple of seconds takes a high degree of mouse control and one hell of a twitchy finger. The players that were truely skilled could fire their pistol insanely fast and still keep aim on the target. I could never do this. Every time I fired my pistol quickly my aim suffered quite a bit. I could theoretically use a pistol script and compensate, but you know what? That is tantamount to cheating for me. I wasn't capable of using the pistol like that. Why should I rely on the computer to do it for me? Next thing you know, I'm using an aimbot to 'assist my aim'. But then there's the customization part of me.

I had Tribes 2 tweaked so much, the game hardly looked like the core game itself. My vehicle hud had a prioritization system based on the map making it easy for me to chose my favorite vehicle and purchase it right away without risking getting shot while fumbling with the mouse. I had nearly tripled my favorites, and had every key on the keyboard mapped to something, and even more alt-, ctrl-, alt+ctrl- mapped as well. I had various indicators that would pop up and show me more clearly what the situation was.

Back to NS - Scripters attempt to justify that scripting is only about customization and nothing more. Bull^^ to that I say. The Half-Life scripting engine isn't CAPABLE of displaying informational popup HUDs to tell me who has the enemy flag and how fast they're going. THAT is customization. A script that drops a Defense Chamber and then tells your team that there's another DC active? That is customization. A button you can push that asks for a medpack and gives a text alert for the commander? Customization. A button that will switch you to leap, attack, then switch to bite in a thousandth of a second? That is NOT CUSTOMIZATION.

Firing your pistol very quickly without your aim suffering is a SKILL.

Bunnyhopping somewhat successfully despite frame rates and ping is a SKILL.

Blinking into a marine, cutting through him, blinking above his teammate and slicing him in half at nearly an inhuman blur is a lesson in timing, and ultimately SKILL.

Scripts that automate these processes aren't customizing anything for you. I've seen firsthand what these things do to a good game when everyone is using them. The unskilled become unnaturally skilled. The truely good players are... 'cheated' in a way. The only possible reason, just like Tribes 2, that people use these scripts is because they simply aren't good enough to do them themselves. The three most popular scripts - 3jump, pistol scripting, and leap/bite blink/slash, aren't customizing. They are COMPENSATING. All three of the skills they emulate require training to accomplish. And if you can't play the game without your autoskill script, then you may as well load your aimbot and wallhack, since it's tantamount to the same thing to me. THIS is why I am against scripting. Scripting begets cheating - except instead of using a 3rd party program, one uses the game engine itself to perform tasks for them. I have SEEN these things in action, and what they do to a game. I quit Tribes 2 for a time chiefly because I was disgusted with players who were only playing half the game, and the game was playing the other half for them.

When I heard of an option in NS to sacrifice customization in lieu of stopping people who are faking their real skill, I was, and still am, completely for it. Until a more advanced version comes along and bans people who are skill compensating while still allowing customization, then turn that one on instead I say.


As for those of you who used to use those skill-compensating scripts, you should be ashamed of yourself, and I frankly would not be surprised in the least that some of you die-hard scripters are basically exploiting on our server just to get your scripts back in and compensate. Shame on you, shame on you all.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 06:26:24 PM by Uranium - 235 »

December 01, 2004, 06:57:45 PM
Reply #36

Architeuthis

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If other admins have wonderful posts like Uranium's they want to put in here, go right ahead.

December 01, 2004, 08:53:43 PM
Reply #37

TheMunch8

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I agree that some of the things scripting does is out there.  But the 3 jump script is another story.  Someone with Low FPS has a harder time bhoping without it.  I do think that it should be implemented into the game itself, and blockscripts on by default.  People with low end systems suffer, and some can not afford to buy new video cards, or a new computer.  We need all the people we can get in the NS community.  We shouldn't alienate good people because they can't afford new computers.

The pistol script...should go.  The blink swipe scripts, should go.  It does eliminate some of the fun.  I ultimately have more fun on the LM server because Blockscipts is enabled.

December 02, 2004, 12:24:26 AM
Reply #38

Sandrock

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I agree 100% with U235. There's my long and thought out post.  :blink:

December 02, 2004, 02:21:23 AM
Reply #39

Mr.Ben

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The HL scripting engine isn't the tribes 2 one. A pistol script, 3 jump or leap bite isn't faking skill, if they beat you with it then they'll beat you without it. This sounds like a classic case of "he's better than me so his scripts clearly gave him an advantage."

Lets discuss these individual scripts. Firstly, the pistol script. Now, you might assume this gives you an advantage but you're forgetting that the pistol has a capped rate of fire. Now your average person can get pretty close to this just by clicking as fast as possible, if you gave them a pistol script they'd exceed the rate of fire. You know what happens then? Your pistol doesn't fire, some advantage.

So if you use a pistol script, you don't fire faster, you have to lower the speed that you use click with to stay under the rate of fire. Instead however each click will fire two shots. The reason people use a pistol script is because they prefer the level of control it offers, but if they're killing you with a script they'll kill you without it. If two different people, one with and one without a script were to kill you you'd not be able to tell the difference.

Leap bite, blink swipe just plain suck and will actually make you a worse fade/skulk/lerk. Most people assume it was an aid because they had hud_fastswitch 0 and didn't know that you could change weapons like that but it isn't the case, they suck. No one uses them.

Quote
I can bunnyhop with some degree of success, for a time. I've never used a 3jump script in my life. The saddest part? I can't bunnyhop as fast as someone using 3jump, but I do it on timing and skill. Now who's the better bunnyhopper?

If you can bunnyhop with a mouswheel or 3jump then you can bunnyhop with any key bound to +jump, you're not a better bunnyhopper because you're being a self righteous puritan and not using a script or mwheel. As you said you can do it with some degree of sucess, that's all ANYONE can do with +jump.

Now i can bunnyhop any which way you care to mention, i can use my mouswheel, i can use space +jump, hell if you wanted i'll bunnyhop with backspace. So actually, yes, the 3jump is just a preference for me. The only advantage it gives me is that i feel more comfortable with it rather than using mousewheel or worrying about dropping a frame at the wrong time. Having constant 100fps isn't skill but would be nessecary for top speed bunnyhopping with bind space +jump.

<3 BenjamiN/Benny/MrBen - Washed up clanner, ex-contributor and forum troll.
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