Author Topic: REQUIRED READING FOR PLAYERS  (Read 18718 times)

December 07, 2004, 04:23:49 PM
Reply #120

Necrosis

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Reply time eh, joy. I'll probably edit this shortly, I see Ben browsing the thread and I'm sure he'll have something for me to reply to.


Also, right at the tope, in big caps, I REALISE THIS IS A THREAD TO AIR COMMENTS, so yes admins may well be listening, but you need to word things in the right way if you want to be accepted seriously.

Anyhow...


Gunner -

Its an advertising issue. Boo hoo if its part of anyone's tag. I don't think anyone can realistically construct an argument that would allow their tag to break the rules. I mean, I could go out tomorrow and start the *insert profanity here* clan and then throw a fit when I get banned from LM for obscenity in my tag. Tags don't mean that rules selectively apply. Its a big step away from naming everyone NSplayer by the way. It just means no adverts. Other people have adjusted by dropping the # sign, its not killing anyone to remove it. The rules say no adverts, so what the problem? You can't really complain about being punished for rule breaking.. its a ridiculous concept.



Keyser -

You misunderstand what I'm writing. Try and look at it this way -

The rules say "Speed limit 60mph"

A poor driver then drives at 70mph because he's making the most of his 10kph phantom higher limit that is still "legal"

A good driver is going under 60 but above 50 (being the lower percentile).

The good driver reads the rules and acts on them, the poor driver is taking advantage of a loophole in order to speed. Sure, he's not driving excessively fast on paper, but in reality he's motivated to speed as much as possible in order to get a 10-20mph edge on everyone else.


In the case of spawncamping, it would be abusing rules concerning location of the shooter, how many times he tries to actually kill a structure instead of camping, etc. On paper a poor player will try to defend his actions using the law, but his intentions are to exploit. Another possible explanation is someone who uses knowledge of the law in order to exploit the legal system for their own benefit. On paper they're doing no wrong, but in spirit they are exploiting the system.

I hope that clarifies.

If you're worried about shooting a skulk in the hive, alone, then perhaps you really shouldn't be in the hive shooting the skulk. Yes, this sometimes will mean a player has a poor game because noone else is following the game plan, but thats a situation where you would have to lose and deal with it. Big difference between

"I rushed the hive, I had no reinforcements, so I fell back"
and
"I rushed the hive, I had no reinforcements, I decided to stay and camp because I thought people would eventually come and turn my spawncamping into a rush"



Some things are acceptable on some servers that aren't on others. "Saberists code" in JK2/3. Swearing. Badmouthing other players. Exploiting. CC blocking. Map bugs. When you play on a server, you effectively agree to implement their ruleset, regardless of your personal opinion on the validity of those rules. If you can't play on a server without breaking their rules, then perhaps you shouldn't actually play on the server period. IMHO LM has a fairly easy to understand ruleset, reading the spirit of the rules.


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I think anyone here realizes that we are talking about something within the confines of a game here. Those examples are meaningless. Please give something more realistic.

No, I'm explaining to you that "valid tactic" doesn't necessarily mean one thats in the spirit of the game. Second, if you think those are unfair or unsporting solutions to game problems then you're partway to understanding why some people don't like spawncamping.

Adj -

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Owning a server does not give you the ability to treat the people like trash, nor does adminning it. When you have a community like LM does, the community at large should decide how things are run and the rules, it's not up the an admin's whim to decide what is good and what is evil.

Actually, it DOES give you the ability. Does it give you the right to do so? Perhaps not. But if an admin team were constantly rude and abusive then the server in question would be empty. The community have no say in the actions of private individuals in their own domain. Its not a democracy, its a "benevolent dictatorship" (as I have heard such things called on other forums). Again, just because there's a community doesn't mean we can phone up a development team and order them to scrap a project so they can make something that a few of us want. Feel free to petition the Total War team to make a game about avocados that sing and play, tbh I think they'll ignore you. The only reasons people in positions of power listen to underlings are:

1) Listening would improve profit
2) Listening would promote more interest in the product

Otherwise HL2 would have been rewritten as an epic story about a flying vole who can turn himself inside out to shoot death rays at ant/chicken crossbreeds. Because one person on drugs thought it would be a good idea, and since he was a community he therefore had to have his word taken as law.

Indeed.

I don't know about you "ban situation" because I'm not an admin, but I do know that people can get wrongly banned due to misreported actions. Thats just the breaks. You're not really meant to hold a grudge afterwards. In your case, lets consider -

1) You were pancaking, and got a logical ban
2) You were flying suspiciously, someone thought it was pancaking, noone had a demo, so you were unfairly banned (and then evidently unbanned when the truth was apparent).
3) You were mauling the enemy team to an extent where it was getting boring, and noone was moving to end the game (but were unbanned because it was merely meant to be a lesson in not unbalancing play).


When I was working in a game store, there ended up being situations where I had to stop someone from playing because they were crippling the fun for everyone else. Hell, I was banned from playing my fav army because I couldn't be stopped. Its in the best interests of other people. If you have an issue with why you were banned, or what your interpretation of the ban meant, then perhaps you need to take a trip to the PR forum or PM an admin you think will listen fairly to your petition. Raking it up over and over in discussion won't get the resolution you're looking for - it just serves to derail threads into the same old same old (case in point, any thread on the NS.org forums involving the usual suspects and their "black list" of any person/server who dared disagree with them).


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But when there's a large community on a server and supporting it

We're supporting LM how? I haven't given money, I don't advertise it (because the only other NS forum I frequent has a no server advert rule), and I certainly can't bring in new and better players. I just play on it when I can. I don't call that supporting it, I call that using it. Of course I'm happy to accept that perhaps my opinion is a bit odd.

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When there is large community support for something that isn't outrageous or not within the scope of the community's design, it's probably a good idea to listen and at least understand why they want something done or undone.

Why? Do tell. Illuminate me, why should a person paying x monetary units a month want to listen to people who have difficulties following the rules? If I break the rules, and say they suck, and generally make a nuisance, then why is anyone going to listen to me? If anything, they'd be waiting for me to leave. If I don't break the rules, and I'm not an annoyance, but I'm a good player who can play fair and well, then I'm the person the admin WANTS TO ATTRACT and thus they will listen to me in order to get more of me. I'm not saying everyone who disagrees with the rules is a griefer, but we do get quite a few who are drawn to the LM "name" and then make a pain of themselves. Go figure.

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In your reply you state that nodes should be used to delay the other team. How is killing the alien's hive node not using nodes to delay them?

Don't confuse "killing the hive node" with "excuse to hide in the hive, kill 2 dozen skulks, and maybe fire a bullet or two into the node". Again, the difference between letter of the rules and spirit of the rules.

Spawncamping rules exist to prevent one lone player abusing his knowledge of the game. If 5 rines rush the hive with the objective of taking it all down, then its hardly spawncamping. If 1 rine hides in a corner and potshots the spawners, then he's spawncamping. Its pretty clear cut. 5 rines in a hive is a gross mistake and clear sign of imminent endgame. A solo ninja in a hive is a common occurrence and a prelude to ninja phase - it should NOT be a prelude to spawncamping in order to prevent play taking place. If you want a game with no enemies and plenty of time to build stuff then I suggest buying Lego.

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Necrosis you're something called a Yes Man.

Sure, whatever. Fact is however that I'm part of the happy majority who's had no problems. Are we all yes men? Or are we the target audience of LM? I air my disagreements in the proper areas, I make my suggestions in the proper place, I understand my contribution to the server and I understand the influence I can expect to exert on others. I'm something called the average player. I'm something called a realist. I have an imagination, but I can separate dreamland from reality.

Your example of the great "why?" is flawed. People answered Why? with Divine Right. People answered Why? with Skin Colour. Why? has caused just as many problems as anything else in history.

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Simply going along with what other people do without asking questions or attempting to alter something you think is wrong is how the most horrible things in the history of the world have occurred

Secondly, following orders is responsible for a great many victories - especially when the question Why? invariably leads to the answer "I don't know, therefore I will run and I will live".


Guest Bacon -

If you kept tipping your King in chess then eventually noone would play you. You don't see many people tipping their King because "OGM SICILIAN DEFENSE WTFBBQ". Its a nice comparision but flawed and doesn't take into account that there exists a vast amount of tards who F4 the second things don't go their way - and I for one have had the best games when its been an uphill struggle.


Lolfighter -

OGMBUNNIES YOU'RE MY YES MAN!!!! BBQ!!

I will send you the chocolate cake as we agreed. Pictures in the cooking thread. One vision, one purpose.

Plaguebearer -

I may be wrong, but if the marine team shotgun rush the hive then aliens will quickly learn the value of defense. In one game, on Lost, we marines trained into the alien hive, totally unopposed, and lmged it down with massed unupgraded firepower. Valuable lesson taught to the aliens. Marines dont need to fear the hive, the only need to fear camping in the hive shooting spawning skulks. Hiding in the vent and building a pg is fine. Rushing it with all hands is fine. Or so I read it.


Legion-

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This thread has given us the right to speak our mind about the problems facing the server and the community

Valid point. It was asked for, it was got. Tho I think we could go about it a better way. I mean atm we can see varying different views on what is considered fair play, and I think thats what the crux of the problem is.


Swifty -

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Myself coming here, I just happened to be the perfect candidate for a linux monster regular, naturally unassuming, non volitile, non script user; I have a malable gameplay style that was easily adaptable to the new conditions.

I see I am not alone.


Well thats me done for another day, sorry for the long read - I tend to shove verbose posts on NS.org so I'm too tired to debate properly on LM. I blame the NS forums!!
Necrosis killed Holy_Devil with pistol
Holy_Devil: cheater

December 07, 2004, 04:51:01 PM
Reply #121

GrayDuck

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Alright – Archi nuke this but I have to chime in…

Necrosis, I think you’re hearts in the right place but you’ve gone a bit overboard.  You say that you and others don’t support LM – you only play there, and that LM doesn’t need to cater to you or anyone else in the community.  But the fact of the matter is that LM would not / could not be around without the community.  Your activeness here, on IRC, and on the server keeps LM together.  And you’re right the rules don’t HAVE to change for you guys, but suggestions and constructive criticisms are more than welcome.  Several community members have pointed out the same (or similar) problems, that means that some stuff should get re-evaluated.  Not all of your suggestions will be acted upon, but they are respectfully noted and even appreciated.  Keep them coming.  Just keep it respectful.  

LM is a community… you can’t have that without support from community members.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 04:51:46 PM by GrayDuck »

December 07, 2004, 05:54:46 PM
Reply #122

MrGunner

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Necro why do I keep getting banned then no matter what I change my name to.

OH WAIT IT MUST BE MY FAULT ANYWAY RIGHT?  It's not just a few of us that are having these problems we are just the few that care to ask why it happens.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 05:58:24 PM by MrGunner »

December 07, 2004, 07:06:26 PM
Reply #123

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Nec- yes, shotgun rushes pwn hives.  Yes, there's no fear in building a phase and rushing.  But these are not 'blitz' scenarios where the hive is in danger from the moment the skulks hit the ground... normally, alien team doesn't have to worry about the hives until the second one is building.  

You never see things like the old Grendel chestnut of 'send three guys with lmgs into the hive to kill their start node and have them bug out'... because that would get those three guys and the comm banned.

The current spawncamping rules mollycoddle the alien team.
God, I'm old.

December 07, 2004, 07:25:23 PM
Reply #124

Isamil

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LB just deleted the server guidelines.

The rules are as they were:

1. NS is about teamwork. Obey your commander, listen to your team. Don't spawncamp.
2. Don't be a llama. Use common sense. Don't be a Commander or a gorge If new.
3. Please be respectful to everyone always. Don't swear other people out.
4. No Clan-Stacking. Two to a team is usually fine. Keep it 1v1, 2v1, 2v2, 3v2, etc.
5. You might be switched to even teams without warning. So try and keep them even.
6. Using cheats, skin, game or map exploits & abusing spectator chat is cause for a ban.
7. Spam the chat or voicecomm, get gagged, muted, kicked or banned. We kick AFK'ers.
8. To dispute a ban or for abuse claims, send a clear e-mail with proof to servers@lunixmonster.org
9. No advertising.
10. Purposefully attacking teammates or team structures when friendly fire is on is bannable.

I really don't see how deleting the guidelines helps...they were a step in the right direction, lets not delete them just because a few parts could use some editing.

December 07, 2004, 08:01:52 PM
Reply #125

Keyser59

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Keyser -

You misunderstand what I'm writing. Try and look at it this way -

The rules say "Speed limit 60mph"

A poor driver then drives at 70mph because he's making the most of his 10kph phantom higher limit that is still "legal"

A good driver is going under 60 but above 50 (being the lower percentile).

The good driver reads the rules and acts on them, the poor driver is taking advantage of a loophole in order to speed. Sure, he's not driving excessively fast on paper, but in reality he's motivated to speed as much as possible in order to get a 10-20mph edge on everyone else.


In the case of spawncamping, it would be abusing rules concerning location of the shooter, how many times he tries to actually kill a structure instead of camping, etc. On paper a poor player will try to defend his actions using the law, but his intentions are to exploit. Another possible explanation is someone who uses knowledge of the law in order to exploit the legal system for their own benefit. On paper they're doing no wrong, but in spirit they are exploiting the system.

I hope that clarifies.

If you're worried about shooting a skulk in the hive, alone, then perhaps you really shouldn't be in the hive shooting the skulk. Yes, this sometimes will mean a player has a poor game because noone else is following the game plan, but thats a situation where you would have to lose and deal with it. Big difference between

"I rushed the hive, I had no reinforcements, so I fell back"
and
"I rushed the hive, I had no reinforcements, I decided to stay and camp because I thought people would eventually come and turn my spawncamping into a rush"

I think you're the one who misunderstood me. Key concept here is reflexes. When you're lerk and you are getting shot at, you are going to move in such a way that will avoid enemy fire. This is true in any situation of any version. You don't think to yourself in that situation "Hmm, I can only fly so fast in the Z direction, so I'll make sure to stay under the speed cap."

Let's face it, the point of any game is to win. That's why we play. Yes we play to have fun, but it wouldn't be a (good) game without a competitive nature to it. Say the rules say you couldn't come within 2 rooms of an active spawning hive. What would you do then? Probably camp the rule outside of the limit so you wouldn't get banned. What would you do if the rules said you could only cap 5 nodes on the map at any time? You would cap those 5 and not go over. Would you cap only 4 for following the 'spirit' of the rule? No, because that is rediculous. The spirit of the law is rediculous when you have the rule set up to block every possible loophole to the poorly thought out rule.

Now with spawncamping, you have to consider the rules before entering the hive with teammates. The team has to consider "Hmm, can we actually destroy structures or hives without camping excessively if we enter?" rather than "How can we use the best teamwork to pull this off?" This is more frustrating than I can put into words, and it hurts the flow of the game considerably.

Same thing with medpack requests. You try to do as many as possible without tripping over the arbitrary line of 'spamming'. Would you let yourself die because you've not quite reached the limit but you really need a medpack?

I'm not sure if you've ever driven before, but a driver doing 60 in a 70 zone will get passed by just about 90% of people on the road. You talk about a bad driver doing 70, when more than half go over the speed limit. God forbid you're driving on a one lane road, if you do 10 miles under the speed limit someone will commit a rage crime against you. Especially in the city.

I'm not sure where you got the notion that driving the speed limit was bad, but way back in my drivers Ed you got bad marks if you went and stayed more than 5-10 mph under the speed limit for a consistently. It's called impeding traffic.

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No, I'm explaining to you that "valid tactic" doesn't necessarily mean one thats in the spirit of the game. Second, if you think those are unfair or unsporting solutions to game problems then you're partway to understanding why some people don't like spawncamping.

No, what I'm saying is play the game the way it was meant to be played, no hacks, no DDOSing the opponents computer, no sending hired assasins, no setting up arbitrary rules, etc... I mean every wacky rule that restricts teams from playing the game how it should be played is another step taken away from how the devs intended the game to played. Pancaking is not a big enough problem that it causes bad lerks to become invincible, unlike where flying cost no energy. I mean if all you do is hit the ceiling and floor, than you won't be contributing anything anyways. Spawncamping is easily prevented with scouting and teamwork (look at that, no spawncamping rules actually hurt alien teamwork  o_O ), and 'spamming' rules should only be applied to those who are intentially ruining the game.

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Sure, whatever. Fact is however that I'm part of the happy majority who's had no problems. Are we all yes men? Or are we the target audience of LM? I air my disagreements in the proper areas, I make my suggestions in the proper place, I understand my contribution to the server and I understand the influence I can expect to exert on others. I'm something called the average player. I'm something called a realist. I have an imagination, but I can separate dreamland from reality.

Browsing through the ban forums give a good impression of the happy satisfaction, not to mention the legions of names on Archi's list who are community members. Eh?

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If you kept tipping your King in chess then eventually noone would play you. You don't see many people tipping their King because "OGM SICILIAN DEFENSE WTFBBQ". Its a nice comparision but flawed and doesn't take into account that there exists a vast amount of tards who F4 the second things don't go their way - and I for one have had the best games when its been an uphill struggle.

The best players often tip their king long before the game is over, and yet they are still considered the best. Eh? People don't play chess for an uphill battle or to experience the thrill of the moment, it is played to match intelligence against intelligence. (hint: this is probably where you should argue the difference) Tipping your king is conceiting, and is widely respected among the best players.

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I may be wrong, but if the marine team shotgun rush the hive then aliens will quickly learn the value of defense. In one game, on Lost, we marines trained into the alien hive, totally unopposed, and lmged it down with massed unupgraded firepower. Valuable lesson taught to the aliens. Marines dont need to fear the hive, the only need to fear camping in the hive shooting spawning skulks. Hiding in the vent and building a pg is fine. Rushing it with all hands is fine. Or so I read it.

2 skulks can demolish chew down key structures that the marines will never recover from if they aren't on their guard. What can 2 marines do? Delay the enemy by spawncamping. Whoa, they actually seem sorta equivalent!
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 08:25:36 PM by Keyser59 »

December 07, 2004, 09:31:34 PM
Reply #126

Guest Bacon

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Keyser basically answered my part, but I'll add a bit more.

Theres uphill struggles, and then theres ramming your head at a wall. A good commander (or icky space alien) knows when the battle is lost.

But were going off on a tangent here.

I guess what Im trying to say is: you may claim that a spawncamper is artifically extending a game thats already over. Im responding by telling you that its also the spawncampee's fault for enduring it, when you have the handy button 4 keys to the right of Esc. Looking at it from this point of view, spawncamping is not a crime/exploit, and thus should not be a bannable offense.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 09:43:18 PM by Guest Bacon »

December 07, 2004, 09:52:02 PM
Reply #127

Isamil

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Keyser basically answered my part, but I'll add a bit more.

Theres uphill struggles, and then theres ramming your head at a wall. A good commander (or icky space alien) knows when the battle is lost.

But were going off on a tangent here.

I guess what Im trying to say is: you may claim that a spawncamper is artifically extending a game thats already over. Im responding by telling you that its also the spawncampee's fault for enduring it, when you have the handy button 4 keys to the right of Esc. Looking at it from this point of view, spawncamping is not a crime/exploit, and thus should not be a bannable offense.
[snapback]35494[/snapback]

Bacon, the server doesn't allow F4ing, that isn't an option.  And the rule isn't changing, they've tried it without that rule before.

December 07, 2004, 09:58:17 PM
Reply #128

SwiftSpear

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No, I'm explaining to you that "valid tactic" doesn't necessarily mean one thats in the spirit of the game. Second, if you think those are unfair or unsporting solutions to game problems then you're partway to understanding why some people don't like spawncamping.

No, what I'm saying is play the game the way it was meant to be played, no hacks, no DDOSing the opponents computer, no sending hired assasins, no setting up arbitrary rules, etc... I mean every wacky rule that restricts teams from playing the game how it should be played is another step taken away from how the devs intended the game to played. Pancaking is not a big enough problem that it causes bad lerks to become invincible, unlike where flying cost no energy. I mean if all you do is hit the ceiling and floor, than you won't be contributing anything anyways. Spawncamping is easily prevented with scouting and teamwork (look at that, no spawncamping rules actually hurt alien teamwork  o_O ), and 'spamming' rules should only be applied to those who are intentially ruining the game.
I actually like the no spawncamping rules, its part of the reason I like playing on this server, that is just a point of prefernace, I don't like getting killed before I can move, exspecially just so that some jackass can get +1 kills at my exspense of +1 deaths; statwhoring takes the fun out of the game.  What I don't like is the fact that everyone seems to be jumping on every friggin marine that walks into a hive and takes a shot at something moving, and that people are getting banned for actions they commited with absolutly no malicious intent.  Since an admin has to go through all the trouble of logging the ban anyways, why not just post a message in game "hey a Civ, you've camped the hive long enough, don't risk spawncamping"  After all, things like that and pancaking are certianly one of the heat of the moment things that any of us might accidentally do with enough adrenilin in the right situation...

The issue in my opinion is that people feel opressed here.  They aren't coming to ruin everyone's fun, they aren't coming to stat whore, they are just coming to have some fun playing the game, but they are treated by some of the admins as if simply by entering the server they must have malicious intent.  I honestly think this server could get by just as effectively if the maximum sentance for a major breache of conduct was a one month ban except in extream cases such as repeat offences or blatant hate actions or hacking.  I try as hard as I might but I don't see the logic behind the whole "well you have been here for 2 years, but you screwed up once, so I never want to see you here again" aditude.  I realize there is a reputation to keep up and all, but I honestly think that such a community is not realistically sustainable in the long run.  

Think of what would happen to the population of earth if everyone who committed any offence of felony rating or higher was simply killed...  I would think the fear of authority alone would practically complealty stop the rise of population; who would want to bring thier child into such a terrifying world, not to mention the sheer numbers of people that are simply being eliminated?  We are experciancing a small scale simulation of this exactly.  Half the community members who would be here if they could are banned-perminantly because they had a bad day and did something they regret now, or something to else that mesure (I'll say that some of them were just assholes and deserved a permaban, but some of them weren't, and some of the assholes have changed over time) and the consequental word of mouth coming from these people has become strong enough to offset the best efforts of your advitizers and prevent many potential new members from coming here.

This is a great community if you can put on a perfect face 24/7, but go somewhere else if you are partial to bad moods, because you won't last long here anyways.

I realize I'm ranting, but maby it is time to patch up a few old greivences finally?

[edit] Keyser and Necrosis, you aren't even talking about the upholding of rules any more, you are just arguing about stupid analogies, and neither of the points seem particulary relevent to the topic at hand...  Necrosis I agree with you that people are better judged by intent in terms of rule breaking than by letter of the law, as I have stated before.  But I think that whenever you attempt to inforce a complicated to assess rule such as "No spawncamping" or "No pancaking" you need to give people a chance to understand what exactly you constitute as going over the edge.  Otherwize I could argue that anyone within 200 meters of a hive room should turn around and head back to marine start because they could techically be spawncamping or that no lerking player can move on the vertical axis or risk breaching the unimplimented speed limits.

If there is a speed limit on the road, it is understood that you will move slightly above it, if you go excessively below the speed limit you are being a nuesance to the other drivers, like a marine that simply will not enter a hive room at all costs is a wasted player slot on his team, but if you are going above the speed limit you are a danger to other drivers, in our marine's case he is being a frustration to the opposing players due to his unfair tactics.  The issue is balance, but the difference is that in once case you will get pulled over and givin a highly annoying fine and sent on your way to drive properly from then on, and in the other you are removed from activity in the comunity perminatly.[/edit]
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 10:10:32 PM by SwiftSpear »
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December 07, 2004, 10:07:25 PM
Reply #129

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So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:

You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.

December 07, 2004, 10:13:46 PM
Reply #130

SwiftSpear

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So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:

You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.
[snapback]35498[/snapback]
If your suggesting that they simply make a rule disallow stat whoring then your not thinking very clearly.  It is the hardest possible thing to prove a person is doing, and is even more suseptable to admin bias then any other rule I can possibly think of.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 10:14:16 PM by SwiftSpear »
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December 07, 2004, 11:37:51 PM
Reply #131

a civilian

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So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:

You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.
[snapback]35498[/snapback]
If your suggesting that they simply make a rule disallow stat whoring then your not thinking very clearly.  It is the hardest possible thing to prove a person is doing, and is even more suseptable to admin bias then any other rule I can possibly think of.
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I believe he is referring to the rule against concession of the game.

I simply haven't seen the constant premature concessions that some people claim they saw in the absence of a such a rule.  I played on a server for over a year-and-a-half that allowed F4'ing, and I found such incidences to be extremely rare.  Extremely rare as in occurring only once or twice in my entire time playing there.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 11:38:22 PM by a civilian »

December 07, 2004, 11:49:44 PM
Reply #132

SwiftSpear

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So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:

You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.
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If your suggesting that they simply make a rule disallow stat whoring then your not thinking very clearly.  It is the hardest possible thing to prove a person is doing, and is even more suseptable to admin bias then any other rule I can possibly think of.
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I believe he is referring to the rule against concession of the game.

I simply haven't seen the constant premature concessions that some people claim they saw in the absence of a such a rule.  I played on a server for over a year-and-a-half that allowed F4'ing, and I found such incidences to be extremely rare.  Extremely rare as in occurring only once or twice in my entire time playing there.
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Every pub I've played in games end almost every time with the opposing team conceeding.  I realize that many players don't want to wait around to be obliterated and see it as a waste of time, and I support thier right to belive so.  But the fact reamains that I prefer to play a game as if the F4 function didn't exist, thus I am glad that there are at least some servers out there that do not allow premature consessions whatsoever.  The primary function of the no spawncamping rule is twofold to prevent jackass style drawing out of long games and also to prevent stat whoring...  The latter is probably the more problematic when it comes to translation of the spawncamping rule in my opinion...
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December 08, 2004, 12:48:39 AM
Reply #133

Keyser59

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I actually like the no spawncamping rules, its part of the reason I like playing on this server, that is just a point of prefernace, I don't like getting killed before I can move, exspecially just so that some jackass can get +1 kills at my exspense of +1 deaths; statwhoring takes the fun out of the game. What I don't like is the fact that everyone seems to be jumping on every friggin marine that walks into a hive and takes a shot at something moving, and that people are getting banned for actions they commited with absolutly no malicious intent. Since an admin has to go through all the trouble of logging the ban anyways, why not just post a message in game "hey a Civ, you've camped the hive long enough, don't risk spawncamping" After all, things like that and pancaking are certianly one of the heat of the moment things that any of us might accidentally do with enough adrenilin in the right situation...

I don't so much mind the no spawncamping rules, but have you tried deciphering the rules as it is now? It's not "no spawncamping" anymore, its no "going anywhere near the hive unless you can accomplish something". There are rules when or when you can't build a phasegate, when or when you can't hit the hive, how many people are required to be legit spawncamping. I'd rather focus on playing the game and having fun instead of worrying about situations which could get me banned. Sometimes I think the only sure way to not be banned is to stay away from the hive at all costs, especially when players, not admins, are the first to whine about anything that might possibly be related.

Swiftspear, my node example was a continuation of what happens when rediculous rules get out of hand to get a better picture of what is happening now on a lesser scale.

Spawncamping is a MUCH more easily enforceable rule when it stays at "killing the players as they spawn before they have a chance to protect themselves". I'm not sure why the server decided to extend that simple rule to something so drawn out and convoluted, but I guess part of it has to do with me  <_<

December 08, 2004, 02:33:52 AM
Reply #134

UKchaos

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Here's an idea, why not remove the rule entirely, add an umbra spawn protection for aliens and stop hindering gameplay? Hurrah! You see umbra spawn does what it says on the tin, aliens spawn in umbra. Lone marines can't spawn camp that unless the aliens are totally asleep and lets face it, they aren't going to win in that situation anyway so by not spawn camping and ending it quickly you're breaking the "dont drag a game out rule."

The rules are out of control and do nothing but hinder gameplay, i hate to have to stop and check myself to make sure by standing in this corridor or blinking in MS i'm not violating a certain rule and will end up with a post in the PR forum. That's not fun, that's a pain in the ass and when rules start to interfere with the game like that then you have an issue.

Agreed 100%. There needs to be game mechanism that deals with spawn campers instead of trying to enforce elaborate rules. There must be plugin that lets you change the duration of umbra/invunrability so we can get a compromise. If it makes hive rushes that little bit harder, then so be it. Marines can use GLs, siege, teamwork, whatever. Its more an issue of balance than sportsmanship.

The whole issue of spawncamping has become sensitive to the point where we are made to feel guilty about protecting ourselves during a hive rush. Even if its 2 sgs on the hive and 4 lmgs only shooting the respawning skulks, so what? Thats Teamwork, thats playing the game how it was designed and how it was intended to be played. If you find situations like that irrating then NS isnt your game.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2004, 03:07:43 AM by UKchaos »

December 08, 2004, 03:05:28 AM
Reply #135

SwiftSpear

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Here's an idea, why not remove the rule entirely, add an umbra spawn protection for aliens and stop hindering gameplay? Hurrah! You see umbra spawn does what it says on the tin, aliens spawn in umbra. Lone marines can't spawn camp that unless the aliens are totally asleep and lets face it, they aren't going to win in that situation anyway so by not spawn camping and ending it quickly you're breaking the "dont drag a game out rule."

The rules are out of control and do nothing but hinder gameplay, i hate to have to stop and check myself to make sure by standing in this corridor or blinking in MS i'm not violating a certain rule and will end up with a post in the PR forum. That's not fun, that's a pain in the ass and when rules start to interfere with the game like that then you have an issue.

Agreed 100%. There needs to be game mechanism that deals with spawn campers instead of trying to enforce elaborate rules. There must be plugin that lets you change the duration of umbra/invunrability so we can get a compromise. If it makes hive rushes that little bit harder, then so be it. Marines can use GLs, siege, teamwork, whatever.

The whole issue of spawncamping has become sensitive to the point where we are made to feel guilty about protecting ourselves during a hive rush. Even if its 2 sgs on the hive and 4 lmgs only shooting the respawning skulks, so what? Thats called playing the game how it was designed, how it was intended to be played. If you find situations like that irrating then NS isnt your game.
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I think the main point of issue with that was that LB doesn't like the AMX plugins and will only use the adminmod (I know one of those is wrong, sorry I know nothing about admin plugins).  If he feels one does a better job than the other that is an issue that I think is good enough as a "because I said so issue".  What program a server runs should very much be the responsibility of the server owner...  IIRC admin mod doesn't allow quite the customization that AMX does, and spawning units in an umbra cloud isn't possible to do...

Like I said before, spawncamping with the intent of spawncamping is somthing I simply don't want to see in the servers I play with.  I don't think it is fair for a single marine to kill waves of spawning skulks, expecially if they are not getting a chance to move to cover or locate him before they are dying.  A single marine honestly probably doesn't have any buisness whatsoever in a hive that involves any shooting, although on second thought that probably is a fairly big one...

To me, it has always been somewhat of an issue of decernment on the admins part.  If the admin feels there is spawncamping going on then they should first make if very clear to whatever player is spawncamping that they are pushing the boundries... and it needs to be done with something asside from that purple pop up text crap, that stuff looks WAY to much like a server wide AMX announcement or something... I know I have myself mistaken several warnings directed at me in the past as wide announcements, (usually for FF, as I like to take the back row and pick off skulks as they swarm around my buddies ankles) they definitely don't feel like a warning anyways...  If need be kick, or temp ban for ten minutes while in the act of spawn camping, but it is really the kind of action that can be done accidentally quite easily, and I know for a fact it will take may player a while to get used to simply avoiding actions that put them in a position where spawncamping is going to happen, there really doesn't need to be complex rules about it if the punishment for the crime is not so harsh.  I would still like to see malicious and irepentant spawn campers banned, but I think banning anyone for accidental actions, even if the are repeditive, is going over the edge.
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December 08, 2004, 03:21:01 AM
Reply #136

UKchaos

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I think the main point of issue with that was that LB doesn't like the AMX plugins and will only use the adminmod (I know one of those is wrong, sorry I know nothing about admin plugins). If he feels one does a better job than the other that is an issue that I think is good enough as a "because I said so issue". What program a server runs should very much be the responsibility of the server owner... IIRC admin mod doesn't allow quite the customization that AMX does, and spawning units in an umbra

Fair enough, i respect that.

December 08, 2004, 07:51:51 AM
Reply #137

lolfighter

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Well, removing the guidelines and replacing them with the old rules (which worked PERFECTLY for almost a year) has accomplished one thing:

Before, the rules were of the complex sort that some people take to be complete. This means that they feel entitled to doing whatever they want if they can justify it to themselves based on their interpretation of the rules.
No more of that.

Now, our rules are obviously not complete. They are broader, less specific. Most people won't have problems with it, just like it's been for the past year. A few will, some because they don't get it, and some intentionally. Those that don't get it will either get it when they get kicked for offending, or they will never get it and will get banned. Those that intentionally don't get it will get kicked or tempbanned, whine, continue to not get it, get banned, whine more, get banned from the forums as well.

The advantage of this is that the complaining will shift from the rules back to the admins, the way it has always been. Which is ok, we can take it. We are quite capable of telling the difference between honest criticism and childish whining, and of tuning the latter out. Personal attacks are easy to deal with through copious amounts of shoulder-shrugging and "see if I care"-attitude.

There was a german politican who became a member of the german congress a few years back. He stopped forward and said "yes, I am gay. Whatever." The tabloids reacted with stunned silence. How the hell do you make a story out of that? The inevitable answer was that they couldn't. The man had effectively defused a future "scandal" about his sexual preference by simply admitting to it openly.

In that spirit, I hereby claim to be an evil admin (you can also call me Nazi because of my german heritage if you will). I am wicked and twisted, I am full of malice, I abuse my powers to no end. Calling me evil will not faze me, it will only elicit a fiendish laugh from me (probably followed by strapping you to a steel slab and having the beam of an industrial laser very slowly advance on your crotch. "Do you expect me to talk?" "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to DIE!" *ahem* But I digress). Deal with it. Heck, post this everywhere for all the world to see. I'm evil, oh so evil, and I admin an evil server of evil evilness. Have a banstick, have a banstick!

So sailor, what are you going to do about it?

December 08, 2004, 08:27:29 AM
Reply #138

Guest Bacon

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The primary function of the no spawncamping rule is twofold to prevent jackass style drawing out of long games and also to prevent stat whoring...  The latter is probably the more problematic when it comes to translation of the spawncamping rule in my opinion...
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"jackass style drawing out of long games" is impossible when consession is allowed, and people know when and how to use it.

stat whoring...you guys actually take the stats seriously? I thought its a really informal thing. How is the rating calculated anyway?

December 08, 2004, 09:08:09 AM
Reply #139

Crispy

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I think they mean the sort of people who'll take screenshots of their end-game scoretables to show off their 30-6 or so score. I used to do it in CS because it's actually a representation of skill* but in NS there's much more that makes a skilful player than simply his killcount.

[size=8]*I still have a screeny of the console showing how I killed 7/8 terrorists on cs_siege having started with just a USP and Kevlar - wish I'd known how to demo back then.[/size]

@Necro: I don't think the purpose of this thread is to talk about how people should follow the rules without question, that pretty much goes with out saying if you're going to play on someone else's server. The thing is, the community has been provided with place and occasion to air its views about the rules. The question is not should we follow rules, but how could the rules be cleared up to avoid mistakes by players who are unsure how to follow them and admins who are unsure how to apply them fairly.
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