Spawncamping

[BobTheJanitor]

It's a tight call, but what comes to mind is a game from last weekend. Several vets stacked on one team. Map was ns_caged. Hive was sewer. Vets run to hive and post up just on either side of the exits. Wait for skulks to come bounding at them. 2-3 lmgs vs 1 hive skulks and no other exits. While on some hives, this isn't such a problem, in this case it was clear spawncamping. The skulks simply had no chance, and the numbers of marines who were doing NOTHING but waiting for the next skulk was bad. There was plenty of time to siege, set up a phase and shotgun rush, anything. But they were just sitting in the pipes and shooting.

So if it's one guy in one hall. Sure, go around and eat him from behind while your friend distracts him. But a few, in a hive with choke exits = spawncamp in my book.

[Guspaz]

By some of the definitions I've heard here, any kind of offensive action against the alien or marine base is spawncamping. Should we then never attack the hive/marine start, and allow games to go on forever?

[a civilian]

It's a tight call, but what comes to mind is a game from last weekend. Several vets stacked on one team. Map was ns_caged. Hive was sewer. Vets run to hive and post up just on either side of the exits. Wait for skulks to come bounding at them. 2-3 lmgs vs 1 hive skulks and no other exits. While on some hives, this isn't such a problem, in this case it was clear spawncamping. The skulks simply had no chance, and the numbers of marines who were doing NOTHING but waiting for the next skulk was bad. There was plenty of time to siege, set up a phase and shotgun rush, anything. But they were just sitting in the pipes and shooting.

So if it's one guy in one hall. Sure, go around and eat him from behind while your friend distracts him. But a few, in a hive with choke exits = spawncamp in my book.

That scenario differs significantly from your original one.  Nevertheless, while that is certainly pointless prolongation of the game, to regard it as spawncamping is stretching the definition quite a bit.  It is pointless prolongation of the game; nothing more.  Prohibit that, if you will; personally I think a far better solution is to simply allow the use of autocondede.

[SaltzBad]

Again, allowing the use of autoconcede lowers the quality of many games, as seperating early auto-conceding from just ones (when it was REALLY pointless), is hard. It makes alot more sense to put the burden on the winners, to win with style and speed.

Hence why allowing strong offense is good - rather have a fast win in 2 minutes with a TFac, a set of mines and god knows what right on their spawn as we tear the hive apart, than a slow one involving 20 minutes of over-techage vs owned aliens.

Plus, in bobs example simple teamplay would have helped. Wait for everyone to spawn, run out. The problem is aliens don't naturally have a comm, but they definitely need to work together just as much.

[Plaguebearer]

Ya know what would make me feel a lot less bad about 'spawncamping'... is if the commander couldn't hear which hive the aliens have at the start of the game.

[a civilian]

Again, allowing the use of autoconcede lowers the quality of many games, as seperating early auto-conceding from just ones (when it was REALLY pointless), is hard. It makes alot more sense to put the burden on the winners, to win with style and speed.

I do not consider premature autoconceding to be a significant problem, as in my experience it is a very rare occurrence.  I have been playing regularly for about a year on a server that allows the use of autoconcede, and from all that time I can recollect only one instance of a team conceding prematurely.

[SaltzBad]

Single members of a team on the otherhand are more likely to. At least when listening to alien voice comm I get the feeling that at the 4minute mark they'd like to all f4 :p

[BobTheJanitor]

Precisely, Saltz. And that's the reasoning. It's much much easier to draw the line at no f4ing than to try and work with it on a case by case basis. I personally don't want to argue with every random pubber who says 'they took double res, WE LOSE' three minutes into the game... So simply saying absolutely no f4ing keeps people in. If they think it's that terrible, they're free to just leave the game.

Believe you me, we admins have more than enough to watch out for without having to take things like f4ing on a case by case basis.

[MrMojo]

Cofr, civilian?


One example of good conceding is, in fact, Cofr. Mostly regulars often do f4, clearly showing the victory of the other team without the painless waiting around. True, there could be cases when people f4 prematurely, but considering the high number of regulars and the 4 player difference needed to concede, it's unlikely it will be abused.


As far as spawn camping goes, it's only spawn camping when the marines can clearly walk in/siege and win and choose not to. Two marines early in game with no upgrades are keeping aliens in base, not camping. A group of marines with full upgrades against aliens with one hive mining it is spawncamping.

Aliens are different. Unless you have several aliens in the marine base, spawn camping is needed. Killing an updating armory or an arms lab would do more damage than killing an ip with one guy dead. If there are several onos sitting around the ip waiting for the next guy to devour him, then yes, it's spawncamping.


It should certainly be on the case to case basis along with premature f4ing.

[BobTheJanitor]

Think of it as trying to maintain the greatest amount of fun for the greatest number of players. I'm not saying spawncamping isn't a perfectly valid tactic. I'm saying it's not any FUN for the camped team. We're not playing serious competative games here. The only thing that happens when one team wins is that the map changes. We're all here to have a good time. Getting killed every time you spawn or being pinned down to one small area by players who seem to think that the point of the game is to get the most kills is not fun.

Alternatively, preparing for your final rush on the enemy's last base and then watching them all go back to the ready room is also not fun. Don't think competatively here, because this isn't a competition. We're just here to have a good time.

Yes, sometimes it's not much fun to fight when the ending seems inevitable, but don't deny the other team the momentary enjoyment of victory just because you're unhappy with it. The map will change and you get to start all over again. I think of it as a sort of a gentleman's agreement.

And again, these things aren't going to be taken on a case by case basis. We have a finite number of admins and, believe it or not, some of us actually just like to play the game and not be interrupted to argue with people over whether or not they are spawncamping or whether their F4 was justifiable or not. If I have to take time out of the game to concentrate my attention on something, I much prefer it to be something important like suspected hacking. There's no reason to overcomplicate things by turning something that could be black and white into varying shades of gray.

[Black Mage]

a serverside fix would be to use RBBoT's modified monster plugin to spawn barneys/snarks/headcrabs/apache helicopters near the cc that are told to attack aliens

(if for some strange reason you want to, i could have the config files for most co_ maps done in a couple days)

[BigD]

I have stayed out of this topic because I did not want to get in it. Anywayz.  Its not fun to be losing in any form....

[lolfighter]

[...]spawn barneys/snarks/headcrabs/apache helicopters[...]

That would REALLY spoil the atmosphere though. Could be nice for fun and giggles once or twice, but not on a regular basis.

[MrMojo]

Well, what about aliens not having any fun when they're down to one hive and marines, with full tech, are setting up sieges outside? Or when you know you're going to lose, and the only reason you're not is because the marine start has a bad design so the aliens have to take 30 minutes.

There is any number of things that are not fun for a team, but these aren't punishable.


Since there is a large number of admins on, I do believe they can deal with things like this on case to case basis, since the actions that may result in kicks or bans happen less than justified f4s/"spawncamping".

[BigD]

Hey hey hey....I just because your not having fun does not mean its right to F4.  I hate ANY F4er

[MrMojo]

So if the whole team knows its going to lose and is not having fun, and the other team can't finish the game, they shouldn't f4/recycle?


This can be applied to spawncamping too then, sure, the other team isn't having fun, but so what.

[SaltzBad]

Nice work shooting yourself in the foot with argumenting - the generic spawncamping rule is exactly such an enforcable thing. By all means I could or should have been held to it several times, I've been in Hives and just uh... 'covered', aka whipped out my pistol and pointed it at whatever pops up. Its one of those things thats tedious and awefully inaccurate to enforce, and the attempt to enforce no-spawncamping is more problematic than the marginal problem that allowing it with the exception of the extreme creates (namely, as you outlined 2 teams being competitive on different levels).

Its just a very thoughtless rule as it stands, as its highly bendable (can both be over-enforced when HDs in a bad mood, or underenforced when a regular does it) and in itself doesn't contribute to the fun. When one side is so competitive that they'll get into the hive with just a few people and spawncamp til they can setup foothold there, then the other side won't have much more fun outside spawn either. You are right than if 2 teams work on different levels of competition/scrubbery then usually the more competitive one will get more fun (due to winning, and their teams morale being good). Theres no way to try to force any specific level thereof though to avoid such a problem - idiots won't automatically play better, and good teams won't become dumber.

It equates to saying "Don't work together, the other team thinks its mean". Not gonna work.

[BobTheJanitor]

How is one guy sitting in a hive and shooting anything that pops up equal to 'teamwork'?

[SaltzBad]

Same way one Skulk constantly running into MS looking for weak def is teamwork. Little manpower and big results - annoying to deal with and prevent, but part of gameplay.

[lolfighter]

[...]Or when you know you're going to lose, and the only reason you're not is because the marine start has a bad design so the aliens have to take 30 minutes.[...]

We could always admin_bury the mapper whenever he shows his faec in the server?