Spawncamping

[Uranium - 235]

Lito you forgot one.

2 marines are in the hive while the rest of the team caps RTs and such. If they shoot the hive with more than a few bullets, than the next spawner will easily kill the marine. Also eventually they will run out of ammo, and their team will have accomplished less than if they conserved their ammo for spawning skulks.

Spawncamping? Yes. Unjust spawncamping? No.

If I was a marine pressuring the hive, why would I want to accomplish less? Its definetly not frag whoring, because wile I keep the aliens contained, my teammates cap RTs and secure our way to victory.

In such a case where victory is already established, and the opportunity to kill the hive presents itself, then spawncamping becomes unjust.

In which case I'm allowed to use my wallhacks and such, because who cares about anyone else, it's only whether I win or not that matters. After all, I don't hear MY team complaining.

[lolfighter]

That's first-class hairsplitting. If that's how we play, I'm banning teams that try to cap every node from the bat, because they make the game unfun for the other team.

[Dubbilex]

That's first-class hairsplitting. If that's how we play, I'm banning teams that try to cap every node from the bat, because they make the game unfun for the other team.

:lol:  

It's all a matter of the situation - what seems a leet, legitimate tactic to one team can quickly turn into a sort of generl malaise that destroys the fun of the game.  it's hard to put one's finger on what makes this difference, but we've all been in both situations (where the spawncamping is done correctly and respectfully and when it just turns into a "mill around in your chair want-to-give-your-monitor-a-lead-sammich" type of scenario).

In my opinion, it should be left up to whatever the situation provides - trying to "ban" spawncamping is such an iffy motive, on account of the fact that people will always find some wy to make it seem legitimate.  So my advice would to be, as LF said, stop splitting hairs and leave the legislation up to the situation.

[Keyser59]

The only argument I can think of AGAINST spawnkilling is that it is unfun. Yes, being killed as soon as you spawn sucks, but guess whos fault it is that the marines were able to get in that position. Just like its the marines fault if the aliens rush the IPs.

There are other aspects of the game that aren't fun either though. Getting devoured isn't fun, getting sieged isn't fun, but they're all part of the game.

We just need to accept NS how it is and we can't start making up arbitrary rules. Else we'll get something like TFC where you can get banned on some servers for things like "chasing" and playing certain classes.

[lolfighter]

[...]Else we'll get something like TFC where you can get banned on some servers for things like "chasing" and playing certain classes.

Now I'm curious. Always a sucker for everything that's completely bizarre and insane you see. I'd love a detailed explanation.

[Majin]

HD and I were talking about how we don't think that Lerk Gazing the IPs is in any way spawn camping, some ppl though different.
our point was, Lerk Gaz can't kill you in less time than it takes to get off the IP.

Spawn camping in a hive is generaly unfair. A base level Skulk is the same power it was 1 min after start as it is at 3 hives.   When marines with level 3 weps and HMGs are camping the hive and not all shooting it, every spawning Skulk is toast (Burnt Toast).

Same goes for IP fades, who will sit and wait just for the marine to spawn.

Also for my final Note!  Being Digested 14 times in a day isnt fun!  :huh:

[Black Mage]

[...]Else we'll get something like TFC where you can get banned on some servers for things like "chasing" and playing certain classes.

Now I'm curious. Always a sucker for everything that's completely bizarre and insane you see. I'd love a detailed explanation.

in tfc abusing snipers, heavy weaps, spy (to some extent) scout and medic can be bannable.

snipers: sniping
heavy weaps: shooting
spy: sneaking and making teh stealth keel!
scout: conc-jumping, whatever you call those spike-things
medic: conc-jumping, poison

edit: forgot demoman
demoman: making explosions, getting lucky detpack kills, getting lucky pipebomb kills, evil traps involving running and remote-detonateable pipebombs, filling medeum sized rooms with multiple explosives (mirv+frag grenades, pipe bombs, detpack) ... yeah, making explosions that kill. it's a bloody demolitions man!

[lolfighter]

in tfc abusing snipers, heavy weaps, spy (to some extent) scout and medic can be bannable.

snipers: sniping
heavy weaps: shooting
spy: sneaking and making teh stealth keel!
scout: conc-jumping, whatever you call those spike-things
medic: conc-jumping, poison

edit: forgot demoman
demoman: making explosions, getting lucky detpack kills, getting lucky pipebomb kills, evil traps involving running and remote-detonateable pipebombs, filling medeum sized rooms with multiple explosives (mirv+frag grenades, pipe bombs, detpack) ... yeah, making explosions that kill. it's a bloody demolitions man!

All that could be shortened to "working with what you have". So playing anything but a soldier is bannable?

[That Annoying Kid]

I think thats pretty much what the message is

[Guspaz]

Back on topic, IMO it's not spawncamping to shoot/kill players while you're attacking something.

For example, if you're attacking the hive, killing skulks as they spawn isn't spawn camping, it's neccessary (Otherwise, they kind of kill you...). Or if you're attacking the CC in combat, you need to kill the marines as they spawn, otherwise you can never chomp on the CC.

Spawncamping is (IMO) when a player is JUST killing spawning players without the goal of attacking something else.

[Lucid]

Keyser explains it best

[sonic]

So Lucid and keyser are saying "Its your ownt fault if you let youself get spawncamped, and that its ok in that situation "

(silly guzpaz ^^)

[Guspaz]

Not sure who the "you" is, but no, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that you MUST kill enemies as they spawn if you are attacking a target in their spawn. It's the way the game is designed. In DoD there is no excuse, there aren't game-critical structures placed IN the spawns. In NS (alien side used as example), you have RTs, OCs, DCs, and let's not forget the hive, all right in the middle of the team spawns. You can't hit those structures without firing at the enemy.

[TyrNemesis^]

Simple, really. When marines get to the point of spawncamping a hive, they win. (If they're good at it.) That's an endgame situation. If I get into a hive room and realize most of the aliens are dead, I get on voice comm and have every soldier on the team rush that hive, because we are going to win. Comm drops an armory, mines, and shotguns, the mines and LMGers take care of respawning skulks, the shotguns finish off the hive. Game over. We make it as painless as possible. (hopefully) ..I have been in situations where all the comm did was drop endless packs of mines and it basically amounted to mine-based spawncamping since we knew exactly where the spawn locations were..

Of course, when we get to the ready room after the former (painless) type of game, people say how we are jerks, homosexuals, cheap, etc. Rather unpleasant language! The reality is that the aliens played a bad game, did not make use of their scouting or mobility potential, didn't defend their hive room. Try telling me that if 6 skulks are in your base and you have no mines, turrets, or electrified strucutres, that you're likely to survive. No. That's also a game over, and it's not a fun one. Camping an IP is 20 times easier than camping a hive room, because you know EXACTLY where and when the marines will appear. No admin has ever complained about a game that the aliens won by camping an IP and eventually killing it.

Camping a hive room, which is HARDER and requires more res and teamwork and aim, is an unfair strategy for ending the game, though.

I do understand the point some of you raised; That we are trying to keep this server fun for all players of all skill levels, but you have to realize. Marines who can shoot well who are in a hive room are GOING to kill enemies that respawn. It would be foolish and retarded not to. You admins yelling "STOP SPAWNCAMPING" are effectively yelling "LET US KILL YOU OR I WILL BAN YOU".

I've been teamslayed by an admin here before when I was one of 2 marines in a hive room, we were using more than 50% of our shotgun ammo on killing the last hive and yet we were still spawncamping. Barely surviving, at that. I think it was amazing we had survived at all, given that there were several OCs and skulks in the room when we arrived, but we lived, cleared it out, and proceeded to start killing the hive. Then...we got slayed. Oh well.

Spawncamping is a very annoying tactic. It makes people angry at the moment it's happening, and if those people are admins, they lash out because they are frustrated and it's against the rules.

Just remember. Sometimes a marine's only alternative to "spawn camping" is voluntarily dying because he CHOOSES not to shoot the aliens. It is VERY VERY HARD to take down an active hive with LMGs.

[lolfighter]

Tyr is raising some good points. Spawncamping is only really an issue when it comes to hives, with IPs it's clear: You chomp the IP, then chomp the player when he spawns, then resume chomping the IP once you've killed him. If you just stand by the IP, waiting for a rine to spawn (or giving it a token bite between rines), you're camping with the purpose of whoring your stats or annoying the rines (okay, it nets you rfk which could be seen as a valid excuse, but if you can take down the IP, you don't need res. So you're kinda reswhoring as well: "No, I don't wanna end the game, I want to go Onos and rape them for a while first! Yay devourcamping!"). And it's not very aggravating, as the marine who is suffering from the spawncamping only gets killed a few times before the IP is dead and the game ends. Add to that multiple IPs, giving the marine a chance against less skilled aliens (the better ones will just alternate between IPs) and the spawncamping has a good chance of being stopped "from the inside", that is without a marine having to return from the field to deal with the problem. If a marine dies in the field (such things happen I hear), there's two rines in the queue now - with two or three IPs to spawn from simultaneously, a skulk doesn't stand a chance.
A hive is so much easier to spawncamp, and much more aggravating: Aliens spawn in a random spot, and usually a good distance away from the camper. And a single hive never spawns more than one player at a time, making it relatively easy for even a single player with good aim to control the flow. If the comm supplies him with ammo and health, he can stay alive for quite a while. The chances of the aliens ending the camping "from within" are markedly lower. And if they can't, the hive dies. Very slowly I might add. Spawn - die - repeat gets old really fast as we all know.

That's why this problem is such a, well, problem. On one hand, we don't want to take away any more strategies than we need to. And spawncamping does not break any of the rules set by the game. You're not exploiting or hacking if you spawncamp, you're just making use of a vulnerability built into the game. And nobody would dare criticise spawncamping in a competition game. But were not solely playing to win here - we're playing to have fun. And anyone will admit that being on the receiving end of spawncamping is not fun. So we forbid spawncamping.
I've tried to be lenient when punishing spawncamping - preferring warnings and cease-and-desist orders to actual punishments. And if we can think of a rule that allows spawncamping to a certain extent while reducing the tedium and boredom involved with it - a rule that is easy to enforce, without lots of loopholes that allow evil people to spawncamp incessantly and still claim to have been within the rules - I'll gladly give my support to it. But until then, until we can find such a crystal-clear rule, the rule is:

No spawncamping. If you want to win, kill the hive. If you have doubts whether you're spawncamping, cease and desist. If an admin tells you that you're spawncamping, you're spawncamping - stop it.

[Lito]

Camping a hive room, which is HARDER and requires more res and teamwork and aim, is an unfair strategy for ending the game, though.

 

Since a single hive may spawn one skulk at a time and within a tight radius of the hive, it is actually very easy to camp a hive.  Not as easy as an ip, but much easier than what you're leading on to.

[Grimm]

It's especially easy to camp a hive that has a relatively wide open area and a good distance from the hive, such as in Waste Handling hive on ns_tanith.

[BobTheJanitor]

What I see much more often is spawncamping right next to the hive. A marine or two will post up in a hallway with a nice straight shot into the spawn area and just sit and wait. The aliens know he's there, so they keep trying to go deal with him. You can't just let a marine sit outside the hive, or the whole team will be there in 20 seconds and be siegeing in a minute and a half. As the skulks spawn, they run at the marine, get shot, repeat. Ugh. This is clear camping. Most often they're not even in line of sight to the hive, so there's no way they could be attacking it.

[Niteowl]

Camping a hive room, which is HARDER and requires more res and teamwork and aim, is an unfair strategy for ending the game, though.

 

Since a single hive may spawn one skulk at a time and within a tight radius of the hive, it is actually very easy to camp a hive.  Not as easy as an ip, but much easier than what you're leading on to.

slightly OT here, but WHO CHANGED YER TITLE?!?!

[a civilian]

What I see much more often is spawncamping right next to the hive. A marine or two will post up in a hallway with a nice straight shot into the spawn area and just sit and wait. The aliens know he's there, so they keep trying to go deal with him. You can't just let a marine sit outside the hive, or the whole team will be there in 20 seconds and be siegeing in a minute and a half. As the skulks spawn, they run at the marine, get shot, repeat. Ugh. This is clear camping. Most often they're not even in line of sight to the hive, so there's no way they could be attacking it.

One of the characteristic features of spawncamping is the supposed inability of its victims to do anything before being killed.  This, according to the previous responses to this thread, leads to boredom and is the primary reason for the prohibition of spawncamping.

The camping you describe, on the other hand, does not share this feature.  Whereas victims of spawncamping are said to have few options open to them, the victims in your scenario clearly have many.  Because of this, I see little reason to forbid that form of camping.