Spawncamping

[Lightning Blue]

Discussion continued from IRC.

[Niteowl]

a public server can have varying degrees of skill. having a tactic like spawncamping allowed on a public server will make a team with one or two uber players, win the game for the rines. whereas if spawncamping ism't allowed, more strategy and teamplay will come into the formula. leading to a greater range of the player base having fun. as opposed to 2 elite clanners.

it's MORE likely that one team will have elite players than both, simple due to the scarcity of elite players (kind of part of the definition, really). now ina  scrim, ti's fine, there is enough organization, and, hopefully, fairly close skills levels for spawncamping to not have a negative effect.

the the fact remains that on a server that can have HUGE ranges in skill, using a tactic that MAGNIFIES skill over strategy will lead to a great number of the public players to become dissatisfied with the gameplay.

[Keyser59]

Well, I believe unjust spawncamping should be racking up kills even though the ability to kill the objective presents itself.

I don't have much more to add to the discussion on IRC, but spawncamping doesn't give an unfair tactical advantage. It is just sucks for the aliens. But it is not impossible to defeat, unlike IP spawncamping.

However in 1.0 spawncamping WAS overpowered, since skulks were much weaker, and OCs were more expensive and ineffective. The devs believed that hive umbra was a way to make things even, however in 2.0-3.0 with the skulk HP being boosted and the hitboxes being reduced, spawncamping is much less of a problem and much easier to counter and prevent.

As it now stands, the advantages to spawncamping aren't that great compared with the difficulty it is to advance in the hive. One OC can prevent spawncamping, and DCs which would be placed in the hive anyways also can cut down on potential spawncamping.

[Keyser59]

a public server can have varying degrees of skill. having a tactic like spawncamping allowed on a public server will make a team with one or two uber players, win the game for the rines. whereas if spawncamping ism't allowed, more strategy and teamplay will come into the formula. leading to a greater range of the player base having fun. as opposed to 2 elite clanners.

it's MORE likely that one team will have elite players than both, simple due to the scarcity of elite players (kind of part of the definition, really). now ina  scrim, ti's fine, there is enough organization, and, hopefully, fairly close skills levels for spawncamping to not have a negative effect.

the the fact remains that on a server that can have HUGE ranges in skill, using a tactic that MAGNIFIES skill over strategy will lead to a great number of the public players to become dissatisfied with the gameplay.

It doesn't take an elite player to combat spawncamping. It either requires a little forethought or quick thinking on the skulks side. Don't necessarily try to attack the marine, just run down his ammo for the next skulk to spawn. Its not that hard depending on how close or far you spawn from the marine.

[Niteowl]

It doesn't take an elite player to combat spawncamping. It either requires a little forethought or quick thinking on the skulks side. Don't necessarily try to attack the marine, just run down his ammo for the next skulk to spawn. Its not that hard depending on how close or far you spawn from the marine.

coming from an elite player, this explaination has little credence. the majority of pubbers will just die trying to kill the spawncamper, over, and over, and over again. fun? no. effective? yes. make pubbers not come back to LM? probably.

[Keyser59]

OK then, drop an OC.

Doesn't take much eliteness to do that.

[Lightning Blue]

Or just don't do it.

[Uranium - 235]

Well, I believe unjust spawncamping should be racking up kills even though the ability to kill the objective presents itself.

I don't have much more to add to the discussion on IRC, but spawncamping doesn't give an unfair tactical advantage. It is just sucks for the aliens. But it is not impossible to defeat, unlike IP spawncamping.

However in 1.0 spawncamping WAS overpowered, since skulks were much weaker, and OCs were more expensive and ineffective. The devs believed that hive umbra was a way to make things even, however in 2.0-3.0 with the skulk HP being boosted and the hitboxes being reduced, spawncamping is much less of a problem and much easier to counter and prevent.

As it now stands, the advantages to spawncamping aren't that great compared with the difficulty it is to advance in the hive. One OC can prevent spawncamping, and DCs which would be placed in the hive anyways also can cut down on potential spawncamping.

Agreed on all points. but however, keep in mind that we want to keep this server fun. It's not fun spending 7 minutes in digestion. (GG being devoured 14 times :p) It's not fun to spawn and get killed before you can even tell what HIVE you're in by some lamer sitting in there with a shotgun.

[JHunz]

OK then, drop an OC.

Doesn't take much eliteness to do that.

you'd have to be pretty elite to evolve to gorge, drop an OC, and build it to completion before the spawncamping marine killed you :p

[ShootBang]

Spawncamping is bad.
if the marines manage to take out all of the aliens, and start killing things when they spawn, HOPEFULLY they'll be attacking that hive. if someone just runs down and starts killing things in the hive, more likley than not some a skulk will spawn and take him down when he's low on ammo. however, if marines are sitting in the hive for too long it would be delaying the game(simmilar to a hiding Marine or alien with DCs) and they should have some sort of punishment.
Aliens are a little worse to me. I've been in a few games where the onos goes in and takes out everything but the IP, letting the marines spawn and killing them over and over. Same thing: bad.

If you're in the enemy base, kill them. Don't sit and let their base live. v_v

[a civilian]

ShootBang, I think it is agreed by everyone here that that kind of spawncamping should not be done.  The question here is whether one should be allowed to spawncamp when one is not able to destroy the source of the spawning.

[Diablus]

i classify Spawncamping as this: 1 and up marines sitting in a hive with a shotgun,hmg, etc shooting a "res tower" or chamber with 1 bullet and waiting for skulks to spawn. antoehr one could be defined as "Onos sitting by an ip waiting to devour a marine" <----this i don't classify as spawn camping if the team is killing the buildings, he/she is only taking 1 more marine off the teams back to deal with. also adds the end game "U spawn = pwnt" feel whenever marines do a HA/SG rush into a hive.

[Lito]

Marines
spawncamping is often justified by "hive pressure"

Situation 1: 3 marines spread themselves out in an active hive room.  No chambers

1 gives the hive a couple shots with a pistol, and once they hear that "plop" of a spawn, everyone whips around shoots the skulk.  Wash, rise, repeat.

Judgement: BS

giving the hive a few shots is merely a taunt...and to make your justification more credible to admins.  You want to pressure the hive? empty your lmg into it. Spawncamping

Situation 2:  3 marines spread themselves out in an active hive with no chambers

one begins to shoot the hive, emptying clip after clip of lmg and pistol, then finally switching to knife and jumping franctically up and down getting a few slashes in.

Plop! skulk ahoy! the remaining pair of marines gun down the skulk.

Judgement: BS

Two marines on respawn defence is prioritizing the death of whatever respawns over the damaging of the hive. Spawncamping.

Situation 3:  3 marines..yada yada yada.

TWO shoot the hive, emptying everything, one kills anything that respawns.

Judgement: Hive pressure.

Having two marines hitting the hive means that you've prioritized hive damage over frags. Hive pressure.

Aliens

Situation 1:  a lone skulk sneaks behind the line and starts biting on the ip a bit to taunt the commander out.  Commander gets out, and gets killed.  skulk chomps away at the ip, stopping after a few seconds to regain energy and ready him or herself for a spawning marine.

Judgement: Not spawn camping

for obvious reasons.  The skulk is eating away at the main objective and being smart about it by stopping when he or she predicts a marine will spawn in.

Situation 1 alt:  The same skulk DOESN'T bite the ips, and just kills whatever respawns

Judgement: spawn camping.

There is a sizable delay between spawns.  you may use that time to bite the ip a bit (not one or two bites, be sensible)

Situation 2:  marine base is zerg rushed (kekekeke ^____^), 2 skulks camp the ip while the rest bite away at the base.

Judgement: not spawn camping.

an early zerg rush has two meanings: End the game very early, or, if the zerg rush is beaten down, to damage the base as much as possible.  Damaging the base cripples the marines of a smooth game start, and will take longer for them to recouperate (ie, rebuild base, wait for res to rebuild base). The base damaging takes first priority, obviously, because if your rush isn't going to work, might as well slow them down as much as possible.  

Situation 3:  Onos sits in front of an ip eating/goring/stomping whatever comes out.  Doesn't touch the base

Judgement: spawncamping.  An onos is perfectly capable of taking fire from one or two marines while wreaking havoc in thier base.

Situation 3 alt: onos sits in front of an ip eating/goring/stomping whatever comes out while his team takes care of the base.

Judgement:  Teamwork.

situation 3 alt alt: onos sits in front of an ip eating/goring/stomping whatever comes out even after his team has the base down

Judgement: spawn camping.

Unnessicary as the team isn't busy with something else, the onos may take down the ip and the whole team can take care of whatever spawns in.

[Uranium - 235]

ShootBang, I think it is agreed by everyone here that that kind of spawncamping should not be done.  The question here is whether one should be allowed to spawncamp when one is not able to destroy the source of the spawning.

That's like spawncamping in BF1942 around the uncapturable bases.

[Sancho]

It doesn't take a really good player to spawncamp.  It is incredibly easy to do when skulks don't have leap.  I've seen it happen many times, and I, for one, consider it an exploit that unbalances the game.  Call it a tactic, call it whatever, it is still way too easy to do.

[SaltzBad]

Meh, its not like its not normally a part of the game to keep your Hive room/IPs clear. So by and large, we have to admit that those spawnpoints belong in the game and anything can be done around them the same as in any other part of the map. And thats crucial : Same as in any other part of the map, not racking up kills for the sake of it.

And those kinds of things, like shooting spawning aliens, building TFs in their Hives to suppress Skulks, mining the area up or any combination thereof should be completely legal. Otherwise we're just removing possible tactics and often necessary measures just based on someones perception of what might or might not be spawncamping.

Generally, any action that is exclusively causing grief for no reason (ie someone that each game runs off and spawncamps or something) should be bannable - directly altering gameplay because one thing tends to be more enraging than another, no thanks.

And uh, Niteowl - its usually the extremely non-leet that feel the need to spawncamp alot and help those stats along

@LB:
Meh, I've done what Keyser said - run the guy out of LMG bullets or just frustrate him til another guy spawns. 3DCs+Hive Heal and use the Hive for cover (he'll probably try to avoid hitting it), and its an easy win for the Skulks. Sure, its easy to do the first time they spawn, but after that the 'rine should be toast.

[That Annoying Kid]

[snip] 2 elite players

I'm not elite, and I spawncamp simple becuase it aids in winning, and becuase I find shooting fish in a barrel fun, and I play NS to have fun. esp in combat, tying people up in the spawn que gives your *teamates* [ns is team based isn't it] more chance to chew the chair, and you can level up faster which makes for more upgrades sooner, which gives you a leg up on the other people.

if the NS is being ruined by spawncamping, or isn't wanted to be a valid tactic, then the dev team would address that, and until they frown upon it spawncamping will be viewed as a perfectly valid tactic, even though it does suck to get spawncamped, it's part of playing the game.



[edit]
however leaving the hive alive, or the ip's alive just to get kills is for effing llama's
[/edit]

[Keyser59]

Lito you forgot one.

2 marines are in the hive while the rest of the team caps RTs and such. If they shoot the hive with more than a few bullets, than the next spawner will easily kill the marine. Also eventually they will run out of ammo, and their team will have accomplished less than if they conserved their ammo for spawning skulks.

Spawncamping? Yes. Unjust spawncamping? No.

If I was a marine pressuring the hive, why would I want to accomplish less? Its definetly not frag whoring, because wile I keep the aliens contained, my teammates cap RTs and secure our way to victory.

In such a case where victory is already established, and the opportunity to kill the hive presents itself, then spawncamping becomes unjust.

[Black Mage]

early game:
a simple oc will take out squads of unupgraded marines

mid game:
no fades at their base? no upgrades? no skulks and lerks flying about?

late game:
you hear that? *thump* *thump* *thump*

[Birdy]

I don't mind spawncamping as long as they kill the hive!

Getting owned by 1 gosu player over and over again waiting till the enemy has all rt's is NOT fun.