How About A Little Change...

[Sancho]

I'm getting tired of the whole DC-->MC thing, can't we be a bit more creative?  Seems like SC only gets dropped first when there is an obvious stack against marines on an alien favored level.

I've been reading the NS boards and I think its perfectly feasable that other combinations can be tried, especially since our players are so good.  Just takes a bit of replanning and some new strategies.

For instance, the ever feared SC-->MC...

Even a couple semi-decent fades w/ focus/adren could keep the marines controlled enough to never get heavies.  DC is pretty useless for fade since it has its own regen, or can just fly to a nearby hive if it needs quicker healing.  A sensory net can make focus skulks almost unstoppable.  Even if marines did manage to somehow get heavies, a celerity onos without regen can easily pick a heavy off and run to a hive to heal, or even the focus fades can chew them down.

Even if it does weaken the aliens, they're already winning 80% of the games I'm seeing anyway, why not bring more of a challenge?  Discuss.

Also, I'd like to remind everyone that your team must come to a majority agreement before trying this

I'd like to see the res slotters be a little bit more outgoing and agree to this.

Ok, I'm done.  I need sleep.

[lolfighter]

MC first has always been a nice idea imho. Silence and celerity give skulks a MAJOR boost, adrenaline gives gorges non-stop healing goodness, and the chamber is useful all throughout the game. Defense Chambers are goody, but mostly in the mid- and endgame where yu break out the high lifeforms. Sensory Chamber, while powerful and fun, makes for an all-or-nothing game: If the marines can't handle it, they get owned so hard it's almost slavery. If they know how to handle it, the aliens see their chances markedly reduced. And Sensory chamber doesn't offer much in the mid- and endgame. Note that this is outdated 2.x info, I left before 3.0 as you might know.

The one thing that makes or breaks an MC-first game is whether your aliens know how to play it. You have quite an advantage at first, but the marines will get ahead unless you get that second hive up fast. A two-hive lockdown is even worse. At one hive, Defence Chambers are almost required for a comeback, so with MC, you gotta make sure you don't need to make a comeback. And you need some gorges with the balls to stay close to the hotspots to provide healing during and after the fighting.

[Sancho]

Note that this is outdated 2.x info, I left before 3.0 as you might know.

Focus makes a HUGE difference

I've always supported movement first as well.  DC first is absolutely pointless unless, god forbid, you get onos before the second hive.

What I'm more trying to get at is MC-->SC or SC-->MC.  THAT, is what I want to try more.

Yes, I'm still not sleeping...

[SaltzBad]

I'd like to see the res slotters be a little bit more outgoing and agree to this.
 

I'd like to BE a res slotter


Okay, heres the problem. The main reason good alien teams are a real pain in the ass is huuuuuuuuuuuuuge amounts of uptime. Each time civilian runs, he's hit someone maybe just once - if I get the joy of having a good team, which on LM is usually the case, they get their meds fast and move on and maybe even weld eachother on the move. Still one or two people will be following for a moment or two, et cetera - all in all, the fact he can be back every ~20-30 seconds with regen or every ~10-15 with regen+meta just slows the marines down alot. He doesn't usually kill them until his team is there for backup and they're weakened/scattered/going down.

And thats what SC changes dramatically. At Hive 1, they'll have no regen - all their skulks are bound to having a Gorge, their chamber advantage can basicly be pinged-away (although its still a short-term advantage) and almost any lifeform except the fade suffers more crippling setbacks.

Sensorys main advantages are probably how powerful it can make early game skulks, until that 2-3 minute mark for armor1 (still tweaking that, but theres no way around not getting raped at base on a public without elec TF [well, thats the cheapest option]. If that actually works, and now you just setup a few OCs near to slow down Marine recovery you can have the game pocketed. But again, yeah thats probably a much larger gamble than most aliens are willing to take considering the alternative.

Shrug. You're right, it'd be fun to try out. Right now I'm trying to find ways to beat down aliens with the quality play on Lunixmonster. Maybe civilian would want to comment on how he experienced our different tactics on the receiving end?

[Sancho]

And thats what SC changes dramatically. At Hive 1, they'll have no regen - all their skulks are bound to having a Gorge, their chamber advantage can basicly be pinged-away (although its still a short-term advantage) and almost any lifeform except the fade suffers more crippling setbacks.

I don't see a lack of DCs crippling anything but the onos really.  Although their "advantage" can be pinged away, skulk and lerk still have focus, which is devastating for light marines, and can run/fly quickly to a hive when they need healing.  I personally never get DC upgrade for skulk anyway.

With 2 hives, fades will have meta, and although this may not heal them that fast, they can still take out marines much faster with focus.  Even if you healed your marines completely with medpacks, focus fade can come back and kill the de-armored marine in one swipe.  Plus the strategy would render the onos unneeded, so there probably would at least 2 fades, and lots of node control to keep them flowing.

I'd like to see this happen with balanced teams.  I'm curious if its feasable with an organized squad of shotty rushers going to a hive.

The main problem I see is a 1-hive lockdown/relocate stalemate.  It would be almost impossible to break without DC...

[lolfighter]

Yeah, what Sancho said: It might just work, but the risk of a boring stalemate is too great.

[SaltzBad]

With 2 hives, fades will have meta, and although this may not heal them that fast, they can still take out marines much faster with focus.  Even if you healed your marines completely with medpacks, focus fade can come back and kill the de-armored marine in one swipe.  Plus the strategy would render the onos unneeded, so there probably would at least 2 fades, and lots of node control to keep them flowing.
 

Thats what the welders for. Seem unlikely that my team would weld? Admittedly, I forgot to remind them often - but think about it, fades forcing our side to walk in tight shotgun squads is already invested res, adding welders to the mix won't hurt anymore. And then those 'rines will probably have to spend less time fighting a Hive1 focus fade than a Hive1 regen fade whose back and biting time and time again.

I don't disagree sensory is do-able. Unfortunately I do disagree that theres a very clear advantage to going sensory first, or anything that lives up to the set of disadvantages.

As for not getting regen as a Skulk, I can see that - as he's a cheap unit anyway, unless you're going Cele/Regen at Hive2 or something or planning on staying alive a while its barely worth the 2 res. Even there it can be pretty nifty though - considering each tick regenerates you one additional LMG bullet. Once you just pay for a Gorge or Lerk though, its already super-useful - Lerks often enough will be cornered away from hives and need to get some hitpoints to be able to fly past the 'rines, and Gorges actually stand a chance against lone marines with regen (although nothing like having a Celerity Gorge, which is the ultimate insurance for your 10 res permagorge).

If theres a chamber I see more likely for variation, its MC. It doesn't lock out DC as hive 2, it has one uncounterable (Celerity) and one expensive counter (Silence, counter is MT), one good Lerk boost (Adrenaline) in the way of abilitys. It also helps your Gorges survive alot, lets you help out at RTs faster and makes the no-regen until Hive 2 alot less painful thanks to speed and using movements.

And just to actually more directly reply to your argument here, you say "and lots of node control". Thats the big gamble of SC. You'll either have almost perfect node control, and the 'rines will go "gg skill staxorz!" or you don't and the aliens will be whining about "gg sens".

Shrug, I should stop talking. It works just fine, but few people would want to take the unnecessary risk. I'd love to see it though, just out of curiosity and to gain some experience against good Sensory teams.

[Dark]

I support mc first but when you ask your team mc? or dc? they always say dc so i drop d chambers.  From what I have seen it is to the advangtage of the aliens to have 3 ppl go gorge right off and drop 3 mc/sc for the full effect right at the start if this doesn't happen well one mc or sc is just useless and the aliens are at the will of the rines till the other 2 get put up.

[Sancho]

Yes, SCs and MCs would certainly need to be dropped early for them to be effective.  I personally usually save an additional 10 res after dropping a node to help out with 1 chamber, if we could get another gorge to immediately drop 2, thats 3 right off!  Weee!

Seems from this thread that:

MC-->DC > DC-->MC

I'm glad that this is fairly agreeable.  I'm anxious to try it out more.

I'm still campaigning SC-->MC though

[Dark]

the only problem with sc-->mc on the aliens side really is that no one drops 3 of them.  sancho, what i was saying is that right as soon as the game starts 3 aliens need to gorge and drop 3 mcs/scs not wait till after you drop a node.  yes i know that statement may seem like a bad idea in a small game or maybe even a large game, but that is the most effective way to do that. B)

[rad4Christ]

Sensory can really be a great first chamber, but as Saltzbad said (which I haven't the privelege to play against yet), it's efectiveness wains in the first few minutes. The only way to really be able to supprt sens first is on maps that have two or three chokepoints, and the entire team minus one (maybe two iwth 15+ players) is focused on the chokepoints. It's imperative to drop the hive as soon as someone hits 50, and that one that's not focused on the chokepoints? He's getting more nodes...

It's doable, but the marines have to be basically cut off from the map early on. And once that happens, the marines usually give up and quit trying/F4/leave, which doesn't make the victory so sweet...

I'm a huge advocate of sensory, but only on certain maps, when the entire team is willing to play ball..


PS. one last note, if you go sensory first, you ALWAYS need one guy saving for onow from the start, to take out any RT's or bases as early as possible.

[Niteowl]

tweaking that, but theres no way around not getting raped at base on a public without elec TF [well, thats the cheapest option].

you do have other options for base defense
-2 or 3 turrets
-a pack of mines and one dedicated base guard


imho, i like 3 turrets, it can effectively cover the early base, serves as warning signal, aids marines in fending off skulks who dont' get near the tfac.

[BobTheJanitor]

MC first is fine with me. MC provides two VERY good upgrades for skulks, which is all you've got early game. Celerity skulks can dance around marines until they get dizzy and are shooting each other, and silence skulks are the perfect ambushers. Whereas regen skulks... meh. Carapace skulks are okay, but really it only gives you another 4 LMG bullets worth of life at hive 1. And redemption skulks are good for a laugh, but that's about it.

At two hives, you've already got the MC ready to go for moving between hives. Then you get your DCs as the lerks and fades and onos start to appear. And at 3 hives... well, you know, does anyone really CARE about three hives any more? I've seen a trend lately on LM of just getting two hives and then launching the all out attack on the marine base then. Having an extra fade is worth more than a hive, it seems. Once you have MCs and DCs up, you've got most of what you need. Sens is only going to cloak you (marines have an obs in base), tell you where the marines are with SoF (they're stuck in base, duh), or give you focus (and they have armor 3). It seems more advantageous to rush the base attack early before the marines get a chance to turtle on a node and tech up further. The small armor advantage given by the third hive just isn't that great. And hive three attacks... hmmm. Yeah.

[Lightning Blue]

I've never had any luck with anything other then D-->M-->S myself.

Most of the time when anything other then Defense is dropped first, the Marines find out quick, lock down two hives and the aliens are FUBAR.

Plus, an onos is totally worthless without defense chambers.

[BobTheJanitor]

Yeah but this is 3.0. An onos is almost totally worthless anyway.  :angry:

Someone on the dev team needs to get that through their heads and either up his health and armor AGAIN or admit that high level marine weapons are just too strong and lower the damage some. I'm getting tired of having to have six onos just to take down MS at end game.

[SaltzBad]

tweaking that, but theres no way around not getting raped at base on a public without elec TF [well, thats the cheapest option].

you do have other options for base defense
-2 or 3 turrets
-a pack of mines and one dedicated base guard


imho, i like 3 turrets, it can effectively cover the early base, serves as warning signal, aids marines in fending off skulks who dont' get near the tfac.

@NiteOwl:
I said the 'cheapest' for a reason - Elec/IP setup costs the least time to build, and hence leaves my precious marines vulnerable less. I've tried mines, yes it killed civ and HD a boatload of times - but that doesn't stop them from running at my base again, costing me time to re-deploy and res to buy new mines. And of course, often mines detonate after loosing a structure or simply leave too much vulnerable.

A basegaurd is also only barely an option. I might try it with a patrol monkey - a person whose soletask is to run around current RTs and whack skulks trying to chew them, who also helps out on base D. But otherwise one person out of 7 in the field is often too much to set aside completely.

And turrets, honestly they're worthless ^^ :/ Yes, they'll cover while marines are there - but they have a whole host of weaknesses. For starters, one target at a time. For another, a single skulk can take a turret in a batch of less than 4 down, die, come back and take down another. Next we have blindspots, even if I elimate those I'm limiting how effective their firing positions are. And I can't really elec the TF alongside as well, at least not without spending another 30 res on based - something thats 90% pointless after the first ~4 minutes of existence.

The only good use of turrets I've seen is for really superb hive spots (hello biodome) and of course forward bases where skulk/lerk cover is a big benefit (Temperature control on ns_lost as you nicely demonstrated). Otherwise you're spending alot of res on what ends up being a target drone for an Onos or Fade and thats just ineffective use of the scarce ressources you have to win. Maybe, and thats a maybe, there can be some success in doing recycle-farms - non elec tfs with about 6 turrets around them for the 'rines to setup every now and then, which get recycled the moment the group moves further ahead. That would cost about 70 res to setup, but 52 of those I'll be getting back (ending up with a cost of 18 res). This actually sounds pretty tempting to try - keeping the static defense mobile *hears marine team groaning 'not agaaaaaaain'*.

Anyway, thats part of the problem. You saw yourself how rough it was winning as 'rines - had about 75% of the map under control, 2 hive lockdown and we still lost. Being short a guy for 2 minutes probably wasn't as much the reason as just how nasty well-trained aliens can be. And it wasn't your comming either, you handled the team in a simply amazing way (and made me wish I could turn up my mike volume and bitch at people too. wah).

[BobTheJanitor]

I've seen HD have a lot of success with the base guard (which is always me) and Niteowl have a lot of success with the 'flex marine' who goes off where the action isn't in order to cap RTs that no one but a few OCs are guarding. (which is always me) The idea of having to guard base AND do the flex role sounds pretty rough. But if you're going to try it, don't worry, I'll be around. I know I'll end up doing it anyway.  

[SaltzBad]

Yeah but this is 3.0. An onos is almost totally worthless anyway.  :angry:

Wouldn't that overpower the midgame Onos? Its a fine basewrecker as is - and if you get to actually work together with a Lerk, Umbra is just crazy. The problem is, most of the time Lerk/Onos teamwork is a bit lackluster or uncoordinated and they get in eachothers way or the umbra goes down at the wrong moment.

Anyways, the Onos is fine. Hive3 lacks some punch though - it should be alot bigger boost for the aliens. Xeno needs blast damage back, AR needs more hurting, Charge should simply become an X4 multiplier to Gore structure damage along with its current function (run like a bee-yatch) and teh web needs to be reworked in how its limited (possibly let bilebomb destroy friendly webs or so, to clear out unused ones).

But Onos, underpowered? Neh. I think alot of what you see in those normal turtle scenarios is one team with an easy objective pulling it off with perfect coordination (sit in a base and shoot what walks in, how hard is that ?) and the other having a complex goal and usually not trying too hard ("Hey, we've won anyway...").

I've seen HD have a lot of success with the base guard (which is always me) and Niteowl have a lot of success with the 'flex marine' who goes off where the action isn't in order to cap RTs that no one but a few OCs are guarding. (which is always me) The idea of having to guard base AND do the flex role sounds pretty rough. But if you're going to try it, don't worry, I'll be around. I know I'll end up doing it anyway. 

At the risk of going on a posting binge here (what the hell, I've got time to kill before I'm home anyway) : Thats another drawback of having someone out of the main fight. Theres a reason especially Sancho and you are often alot more valuable with the main group than other people - its not your aim or reflexes, which I can't judge anyway. Its the fact you guys talk. When theres an order out, and the group fools around Sancho will speak up and say "Hey buttheads, move through this vent we've got stuff to kill" (paraphrased :p ) and save the game in the process. If theres something that I'd love to see you do ad nauseam then its keep the people out in the field together

I did pick up on Niteowl sending you off though, and promptly used it in the next match (Origin. Admittedly, 80% of the time that person got raped - we were very lucky at the start of ns_lost). And also made the exact same mistake of past the ~10ish mark forgetting to send out that guy when it would have been extremely useful - loosing some valuable res or offensive positions that way. Luckily you guys in the field see these details often faster than the comm - at least Holy_Devil did, spotting a hive going up just waiting to be rushed.

Anyway, its all a dilemma. In the end, marines are the most valuable ressource and every second they spend worth the win (hence, yeah I'm finally convinced to go 2 IP earlier. Go me). :p



Only warning: Double posting is bad. Edit your last post if you want to add more!

Edit : Err okay, it wasn't for the purpose of postcount++ anyway

[Lightning Blue]

(possibly let bilebomb destroy friendly webs or so, to clear out unused ones).

Too abusable and llama prone, this would be a very bad idea.

[SaltzBad]

Ho noes, you biled away my webs now I'm going to have to re-lay them? So many lamer things people can do anyway, like setting up OCs on resnodes on FF off servers, that I wouldn't worry.

NS servers need good admins, end of story