How About A Little Change...

[Keyser59]

In a recent CAL match we actually succeeded in going sensory first on nancy. Granted it was extremely coordinated, but on a map with a few choke points (only 2 on nancy), sensory can be a great help in locking down at least one of them, guaranteeing you will have a second hive going up.  Nancy is also small enough that early fades can get from messhall/crewlockers > hive in a short amount of time, and focus reduces each encounter time. The only problem is that fades can die very easily on nancy (I died in the door once  :rolleyes: but that was after we already established our victory).

We placed the sensories in strategic points in the vents above nancy so they would be unkillable. Worked quite well as aliens had the advantage in fighting for these 2 critical locations on the map. It just requires an extreme amount of coordination, which on most pubs isn't available.

[BobTheJanitor]

NS servers need good admins, end of story

And that's why you play on LM.  

As far as the flex marine role, yeah I do die a lot. But running out as a vanilla marine without any expensive toys to lose, I don't feel too bad about it. RFK is going to happen, and there's not much you can do about that except to just not fret about 1-3 little res points. At the very least, you get some useful intel and at best, some free res nodes while the aliens remain distracted elsewhere.

As far as onos power, I'd like to see it beefed to the point where it could shrug off two or three HMG marines as long as it didn't have long hallways to deal with and have its cost upped to 100 res again. There's a reason it's only 75 res now, and that is because the devs still insist on having the same health/armor values between CO and NS maps. Everyone except the devs thinks this is a bad idea, but they just won't bend.

[Geminosity]

I dunno... against a base with actual marines I'd say the fade is a better piece of kit =3

To be honest, while the SC is a nice chamber it's always felt like a 'novelty' chamber.  You can win without it happily enough.  Sure you can win without the other chambers to some degree but with the ever useful MCs warping you to where you need to be and the DCs keeping all those high level monsters in the fight it makes life a lot easier =/

Let's face it.  Most of the problems with the chambers is because it's a mutually exclusive choice and SC is the lesser in most people's minds.  Like bob said, most of the time it's a 2 hive match, even with the 3rd undefended I've seen many a game where people just don't bother.
Meanwhile the marines can research their whole tree happily enough as long as they have the res.  There's no 'exclusive' choices really... you can get all the upgrades eventually, while the aliens are stuck having to make pretty critical decisions right from the get go =s

As much as I find the SCs amusing I value silence and regen a great deal more than anything the SC can and has ever offered and until it's no longer exclusive the best you'll really see wide-spread acceptance for is MC->DC rather than DC->MC.  Outside of that you might as well go put some money on the lottery :p

[a civilian]

I think one of the main reasons for the necessity for defense is the prevalence of electrification.  Electrification is easily defeated with defense, but significantly less so without it.  Another major factor, of course, is how without regeneration higher lifeforms must travel back to the hive for healing, which greatly reduces their time spent fighting.  Both of these factors can be overcome to an extent with the use of permanent supporting Gorges, but I find that these are a rare sight.

I am willing, however, to try out other chamber orders, as long as it is understood by the team that a greater amount of teamplay and coordination will be necessary.

[Sancho]

MC first is fine with me. MC provides two VERY good upgrades for skulks, which is all you've got early game. Celerity skulks can dance around marines until they get dizzy and are shooting each other, and silence skulks are the perfect ambushers.

I think adreniline would be really nifty as well.  Especially for parasiting skulks.  Hell, it could even become a weapon against a camping marine!  And don't forget how the skulk always runs out of energy before destroying an RT.  That could mean the difference between a dead RT and an electrified one.  I never cancel an electrify unless there are at least 2 skulks attacking it.

[lolfighter]

[...]Both of these factors can be overcome to an extent with the use of permanent supporting Gorges, but I find that these are a rare sight.[...]

And for no little reason. A Gorge does well in the medic role, but it has certain drawbacks. A Fade with regen can heal on the move, or blink into a vent and sit snug there while it heals. The Gorge is significantly less mobile - it just can't keep up with a Fade. This means the Fade will either constantly be blinking back and forth between hotspots and a healing Gorge, or will have to wait for the Gorge to catch up. An Onos takes forever to heal to full strength, and is significantly slower than a Fade - the Gorge will either have to stay close to the fighting (and closer to harms' way), or the Onos has to run back, increasing downtime even more. And what happens when the marines suddenly rush the Onos-Gorge combo during the healing? Several marines are quite a threat - the Onos will either fight at great risk to himself, or run away. If he runs away and survives, his Gorge buddy is pretty likely to bite the dust in his stead - now the Onos has to return to the hive whenever it needs healing, resulting in EVEN MORE downtime.
I maintain: Unless the skill difference is huge, the aliens will need DCs at the second hive. You can't count on getting all three hives, and the endgame easily becomes a farce without regeneration.

[Decimator]

Here's a thought...what if oc spikes did double damage to buildings?  That would mean that electrified nodes could be taken down rapidly by gorges even in the early game with a little expenditure of res.

[a civilian]

And for no little reason. A Gorge does well in the medic role, but it has certain drawbacks. A Fade with regen can heal on the move, or blink into a vent and sit snug there while it heals. The Gorge is significantly less mobile - it just can't keep up with a Fade. This means the Fade will either constantly be blinking back and forth between hotspots and a healing Gorge, or will have to wait for the Gorge to catch up. An Onos takes forever to heal to full strength, and is significantly slower than a Fade - the Gorge will either have to stay close to the fighting (and closer to harms' way), or the Onos has to run back, increasing downtime even more. And what happens when the marines suddenly rush the Onos-Gorge combo during the healing? Several marines are quite a threat - the Onos will either fight at great risk to himself, or run away. If he runs away and survives, his Gorge buddy is pretty likely to bite the dust in his stead - now the Onos has to return to the hive whenever it needs healing, resulting in EVEN MORE downtime.
I maintain: Unless the skill difference is huge, the aliens will need DCs at the second hive. You can't count on getting all three hives, and the endgame easily becomes a farce without regeneration.

The Gorges need not remain close to the fighting.  They need only to be significantly closer than the hive.  All that is really needed is for several Gorges to simply wander around the map building resource chambers and fortifying key points.

I completely agree, however, that defense is needed by second hive.  With the increased health and armor of the Onos, healspray is now nearly worthless at healing it.  It takes approximately 60 seconds to heal a nearly dead Onos to full health, and that is assuming infinite energy.

[DiscoZombie]

feh, when I ask if it's ok if I take a risk and put sensories up first, often people on LM will agree/allow it... really, it all depends on the skill of both teams... skilled aliens can take down the marines no matter what structure is built first, and vice versa...

IMO sensories first is simply fun vs. your average marine team =p I <3 watching 3 marines who can't see me walk by, then chomp em all in a row before they really realize what's happening...

in more strategic terms, sensories may not help vs. electricity, but if all your skulks are invisible, they can ambush the marines before they even get to the res nodes to begin with...

[Sancho]

I had some bad experiences tonight with sens first.  I take back everything I said.  Sensory as a first chamber is pointless, and detramental to the team.

I still love movement first, though

[lolfighter]

Given to moodswing eh? :p
Sensory is fun but a gamble - either you rule or you get ruled. That's been the way since 2.0. In 1.x, it was truly useless.

[Sancho]

What flayra should really do is just change the cost of the chambers.

DC = 12 res
MC = 12 res
SC = 8 res

Something like that would make sensory first a smart decision.  I'm not saying aliens should be nerfed more, I just think a chamber should be weighted based upon how much it is really worth.  Thoughts?

[BobTheJanitor]

Eh, leave the costs of the other chambers the same, they've proven themseleves well balanced at that level. But I do agree with making sens a bit cheaper, since it requires a network to be worthwhile. If it were easier to spam early game, then it would get more use.

[Dubbilex]

Sensories were cheaper in 1.0X, no?  I believe they might have been 8 then.

[Satiagraha]

the only point i see in SCs without a map network is possibly to hide the lonely gorge who's madly trying to run from a hive under siege, or to hide those pesky OCs (no use in the hive itself being cloaked since its kinda obvious where it'd be).  8 res SCs would help even out the total cost of sensory vs movement or defence (since building up a network > a few healing stations around the map or interhive transportation)

[Dark]

Sensories were cheaper in 1.0X, no?  I believe they might have been 8 then.

yes in 1.04 they were 8 res but the others were some different amounts if i remember correctly  <_<

[lolfighter]

MC and DC were fourteen I think.

[Niteowl]

jeebus.. remember the HP on the SC in 1.04? it was MAAAASSIVE.. soo cool. well... actually, that was the ONLY thing cool about the SC in 1.04 :S

[a civilian]

Sensories were cheaper in 1.0X, no?  I believe they might have been 8 then.

In 1.04, offense, defense, and movement chambers cost 14 and sensory chambers cost 10.

[Sancho]

/me loads up 1.04
/me admires the old ns_caged

yep, civ is right.