Author Topic: Recent Reserved Slot removals  (Read 27280 times)

May 07, 2005, 02:57:07 PM
Reply #20

esuna

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For the record...

PB IS a very active admin who does a good job, I say this cause he just mentioned himself, but I agree PB is pretty win :-D


and for everything else:

Honestly, if you havnt seen this coming from a MILE away, that something would happen to esuna (or even sonic) then you have to be blind. I don't hate esuna, he's not a bad person, but he's hard headed and so is vinnie, and Ive seen MANY a bans being placed because of which. If it wasnt PAINFULLY obvious this would result in something, You obviously arnt around when esuna and vinnie argue. (which is something hard to do, since that is most times).

<3 to all
[snapback]48037[/snapback]

Thing is, who wins the arguments. Vinnie. Guess why, he'll argue, flame and swear at me as much as he likes, do i get banned for it? Yes. Does he? No.

****ing. Double. Standards.
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May 07, 2005, 03:02:13 PM
Reply #21

Asal

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I can't say I expected it.  

I can't say I'm particularly suprised by it.

I can say that I'm behind the admins on this.  Good call.
Asal 'The Unforgiving'
Fedaykin, Warrior of the Desert Mouse

"I will live to be immortal...or die trying!"

May 07, 2005, 03:29:02 PM
Reply #22

aeroripper

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I have no idea what's going on

May 07, 2005, 03:39:16 PM
Reply #23

2_of_8

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I have no idea what's going on
[snapback]48043[/snapback]
Hmm... read the thread :)


I'm with Asal on this one; I didn't see it coming (not very clearly anyway), but when it did come, I wasn't surprised.
As for his 3rd statement... meh. Probably not.
Where lipstick is concerned, the important thing is not color, but to accept God's final word on where your lips end. - Jerry Seinfeld

May 07, 2005, 03:47:41 PM
Reply #24

CryForMe

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I thought long and hard about what to say on this one, so here goes.

..               With the big hoo-ha we just had on the soapbox about admins not doing their jobs, it seems that now people are whining about the opposite: theyre doing them TOO well. Well folks, we kinda need to make up our minds about what we want.  Personally, I could care less what the admin staff took into issue with esuna and sonic. Thats their business and I'm not an admin, so its none of mine. Im not gonna whine about it, nor am I gonna throw my support behind it. If they had their reasons, they had their reasons, let it go at that.

..              However, the issue I want to address is the "adult" portion of what goes on in the server. You know, seeing as the issue seemingly revolves around swearing and flaming, I think we oughtta get down to it. Ladies and gentlemen, i pose to you the question of reasonable maturity. How old is the average age of the regs and admins on the server? Sure we have some people in the 14-16 age range, but we also have people in the 30-40 age range to balance it out.  Lets reach a reasonable compromise here folks.  Being a high school teacher, I can tell you that I have to moderate language in the classroom.  But by the same token, I also have an understanding that there is no such thing as a 14 year old who has never heard people swearing and doesnt know what the words mean.  We have a swear filter on the server, plain as day. All people see are asterisks if someone swears in chat.  If they swear on the mic, well, we cant stop that, but why bring it to issue?  Is anyone really THAT offended when someone says the "s word" or the "f word"?  As esuna said, I have heard several people with reserved slots mic chatting it up using more derogatory words for lengthy periods of time and it goes untouched.  Not saying that we have to be iron-fisted about it, but lets think like rational human beings for a moment. We're not running a day care. It's an online gaming server that runs a game where tensions get heated, people get pissed off, and you know what, being that most of us are mature enough to handle it, people are gonna swear some.  Let it go.  If it gets out of hand, give the person a slap on the wrist. Dont put them out for ostracism at the hands of the entire community.
Thats just wrong.

..           As far as flaming goes, there are times when it's justified.  Example: a shotgun rush is coming to a hive. The gorge spits it and yells out that the rush is coming. 2 skulks come, while the other four busily chomp on an RT and ignore the fact that the hive is dying. Another example: Rines are trying to take a hive out, and one of the goobers stands there wasting precious shotgun ammo on a movement chamber instead of assisting the team. Now im not pushing for it to go into the realm of kicking a dead horse, but if someone slings out a pithy remark at such idiocy, who cares? Sure its easy to say that it breaks the rules and should be punished if you're watching it non-biased from spectator, but if you're on the team thats effected, it makes you MAD! Let people blow off some steam by occasionally ragging on people for being dumb.  As far as the regs go, we casually flame each other all the time and none of us cares, because we know that it's all in jest and the next round it wont matter.  If some nsplayer comes in and does it and gets miffed because he was being stupid and got an earful and leaves, does it really bother anyone? Along with good behavior and fair gameplay, we also like to keep a reasonable amount of things like skill and teamwork involved. People who dont stick to these as well have no more room in the community than people who would make asses of themselves on a regular basis.  But once again, if it gets out of hand, then is when it becomes an issue for resolution at the hands of the admin staff. But dont make it a big deal. Nobody likes to be put out.

..              Bottom line is folks, that due to the content that we deal with on a constant daily basis in and around the community, for the sake of argument, whether youre 14 or 35, we're all adults here. We're all old enough to know how to be reasonable and responsible about our actions. We're not children that need mommies and daddies washing our mouths out with soap, we're not fanatical clean-language freaks who gasp every time someone says a naughty word.  None of us is so sensitive that we're going to go cry in the corner over a petty insult.  Let's just wake up and bring this to a level where we dont feel like kids, but we can still act like adults.

..            Also, as a side note, (no offense intended) i'd like to see the admins stop sitting in spectator. This makes me angry very frequently.  The reason behind it is twofold. firstly, i see a lot of admins that come on and sit in spec on a full server.  Understandable that you're trying to get an overview of whats going on, but dont just sit there. If you were alerted to solve a problem on the server, either spec/solve/leave or spec/solve/join up.  Secondly, admins that sit in spec, generally do so for several maps or rounds, and do so at times where an extra player on a shorthanded team makes the difference between a decent game and a slaughter.  So for the sake of obeying the rules, dont spec on a full server and dont spec when theres a team in need of help. As i said, if a problem has to be solved, solve and move on to the next thing.  Like i said before, I dont intend offense toward anyone, but if a slotter or a reg was doing that and an admin saw it, they'd get angry.

..        In close, lets work on things like raising the maturity bar and seeing if people can handle it, accountability, double standards, and doing the right thing. Not just the admin staff, but all of us as a whole. We have the ability to not be retards, so let's exercise it.
/end rant.
*edited for ABS' reading pleasure.*
« Last Edit: May 07, 2005, 04:32:28 PM by CryForMe »
"What do I do first when I comm?"-NSPlayer(2)
"You need to build an RTFM interface."-CFM

May 07, 2005, 04:06:51 PM
Reply #25

A Boojum Snark

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CFM... please put some line breaks and paragraph spacing in there so I can read it. D:

May 07, 2005, 04:07:21 PM
Reply #26

Mr.Bill

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As usual, CFM provides and AWSOME read :-D

(read it, it's worth the WHOLE of 3 minuts)

 
Hows my comming? PM!

For the win

May 07, 2005, 04:39:12 PM
Reply #27

Dubbilex

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Well put, CFM.  I like that.


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I can't say I expected it.

I can't say I'm particularly suprised by it.

I can say that I'm behind the admins on this. Good call.
We're already starved for good, quality slotters here.  And The Admin Team has just booted two of the best and oldest that we had.  I guess the ideal community around here would be one where half the admins play WORLD OF WARCRAFT and that same half would be both the most vocal and would reside in the most tenable positions of power.  I think that just ain't right but then, I don't have a @ next to my handle so what do I know, right nessy boy?

I expect I might get that PM sometime soon, and hell, if I do it's cool.  You admins choose the community that you want to surround yourselves with; not us.  And what All Of You have clearly said through your Collective actions today is that the community that you want is probably a lot different than the community that I remember.  Whatever.  If Vinnie goes after my slot next, I won't complain.

May 07, 2005, 05:17:05 PM
Reply #28

Plaguebearer

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.. Also, as a side note, (no offense intended) i'd like to see the admins stop sitting in spectator. This makes me angry very frequently. The reason behind it is twofold. firstly, i see a lot of admins that come on and sit in spec on a full server. Understandable that you're trying to get an overview of whats going on, but dont just sit there. If you were alerted to solve a problem on the server, either spec/solve/leave or spec/solve/join up. Secondly, admins that sit in spec, generally do so for several maps or rounds, and do so at times where an extra player on a shorthanded team makes the difference between a decent game and a slaughter. So for the sake of obeying the rules, dont spec on a full server and dont spec when theres a team in need of help.

QFT.  Sometimes, it seems, some admins treat LM as couch potato fare.  You know who you are.

OTOH, sometimes an admin or two DOES have to hop into spec for extended periods, especially for hard-to-call issues... sometimes even requiring multiple admins (any suspicion of hacking I would have, I would definitely call in backup to spec and review, for example...).

God, I'm old.

May 07, 2005, 05:20:28 PM
Reply #29

Plaguebearer

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We're already starved for good, quality slotters here. And The Admin Team has just booted two of the best and oldest that we had.

I really like esuna.  I was even against him losing his slot.  But I'm not sure I'd count him [or Sonic] in with the 'best' slotters we have - he can be rather petty at times...

I can recall one example that pretty much sums it up for me wherein he basically just annoyed and annoyed someone til they left the server, announced 'My work here is done" and quit.

Then again, I'm not exactly the best admin or slotter myself, but that's another story.
God, I'm old.

May 07, 2005, 06:00:26 PM
Reply #30

holy_devil

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okay, show us the convo. lets see the unanimous admin decision.

beacause im calling bs.
[snapback]48025[/snapback]

i'm not going to be the one to screenshot the admin forum, but everything stated as far as the decisions go is true. we made a subforum and guidelines for it, reguarding structure etc. given a week to find reason(s) to not remove said persons slot and to argue removal in general. and as stated, the agreement was to remove your(sonic,esuna) slots. tbh, im disguisted that everyone is reacting this way. esunas posts only push further the reasoning for him losing it, honestly.

also i like how everyone is attacking vinnie for this. hence the reason for the admin team acc. no one admin did this, it was the collective decision, totally honest.

nice post CFM, says a lot. i can't be on the server 24/7 covering every single conversation and word said, and since i'm currently mostly mia playing wow, i don't even play atm. however, i can post in reference to the community so i try to. if someone is cursing or whatnot i yell at them. bad name is gone by choice or force. i usually get whined/cried to if i do actually do my job, and its actually taken quite a toll in how much i will mention the rules to people sometimes. god forbid i remind someone of the no swearing rule..

May 07, 2005, 06:03:56 PM
Reply #31

Magmatron

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Thing is, who wins the arguments. Vinnie. Guess why, he'll argue, flame and swear at me as much as he likes, do i get banned for it? Yes. Does he? No.

****ing. Double. Standards.
[snapback]48038[/snapback]

Pardon?

<esuna> Vinnie-NS: i need to know, you actually are 14, right?
<Vinnie-NS> nope, not your age, sorry
<Magmatron> !tb esuna 1m Stop trying to antagonize people already, yeesh. Do you want people to explode at you?
* ChanServ sets mode: +b *!*@host81-132-243-193.range81-132.btcentralplus.com
* esuna was kicked by ChanServ ((Magmatron) Stop trying to antagonize people already, yeesh. Do you want people to explode at you?)

<Magmatron> Stop responding to that nonsense already
<Lightning_Blue> !suspend Vinnie-NS
<Lightning_Blue> !tb Vinnie-NS 2m
* ChanServ sets mode: -o+b Vinnie-NS *!*@Vinegar_Ninja.user.gamesurge
* Vinnie-NS was kicked by ChanServ ((Lightning_Blue) Bye.)

The only reason it wasn't longer was because you provoked him first.

Meanwhile, in the admin channel....

Edit: Instead of posting things directly from the channel, it'll suffice to say that Vinnie was spoken to. Whoops.

Both you and Vinnie were wrong. Double standards, indeed. Honestly, I'm tired of people just assuming that nothing gets done because they don't see it.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2005, 06:10:29 PM by Magmatron »

TyrNem...blah blah blah

May 07, 2005, 06:10:40 PM
Reply #32

esuna

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Thing is, who wins the arguments. Vinnie. Guess why, he'll argue, flame and swear at me as much as he likes, do i get banned for it? Yes. Does he? No.

****ing. Double. Standards.
[snapback]48038[/snapback]

Pardon?

<esuna> Vinnie-NS: i need to know, you actually are 14, right?
<Vinnie-NS> nope, not your age, sorry
<Magmatron> !tb esuna 1m Stop trying to antagonize people already, yeesh. Do you want people to explode at you?
* ChanServ sets mode: +b *!*@host81-132-243-193.range81-132.btcentralplus.com
* esuna was kicked by ChanServ ((Magmatron) Stop trying to antagonize people already, yeesh. Do you want people to explode at you?)

<Magmatron> Stop responding to that nonsense already
<Lightning_Blue> !suspend Vinnie-NS
<Lightning_Blue> !tb Vinnie-NS 2m
* ChanServ sets mode: -o+b Vinnie-NS *!*@Vinegar_Ninja.user.gamesurge
* Vinnie-NS was kicked by ChanServ ((Lightning_Blue) Bye.)

The only reason it wasn't longer was because you provoked him first.

Meanwhile, in the admin channel....

Hehe, shouldn't be here. Whoops.

Both you and Vinnie were wrong. Double standards, indeed. Honestly, I'm tired of people just assuming that nothing gets done because they don't see it.
[snapback]48057[/snapback]


Can you blame me for complaining if action is being taken but none of us are any the wiser?

You have to admit that when you're only given one side of the story, there's no option but to base your argument on what facts are actually available to you.

Scooter, go suck a ****. :D
« Last Edit: May 07, 2005, 06:12:41 PM by Magmatron »
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May 07, 2005, 06:35:41 PM
Reply #33

Legionnaired

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This is hardly the unanimous action that we were told it was.

Which one is it, guys?

You say that if we knew all of his offenses, we'd agree with you. I trust you on that, but show us. It's the only well to quell this kind of criticism.

On a related issue: On the whole, you guys are doing a bang-up job. However, it seems that in the minority of cases where a popular reserved slotter is being banned nobody in the community seems to think it was warrented; it also seems like the admins all have a very good idea about what happened.

Take Saltzbad as an example. Now, Saltz was an asshole (I joined [RR] for all of two weeks before I couldn't take his obnoxious HAL-9000 voice over vox anymore) but there was still a widespread (though hardly universal) outpouring of support.

We all know that Saltz, in addition to being an asshole, also broke a lot of server rules, and should have been banned. However, the community wasn't presented with a list of his transgressions, and as such, bad blood ensued.

In my opinion, (and I say this in full knowledge it's private webspace) the collective group of admins, upon banning a reserved slotter, need to post the deliberations that resulted in that action in a public location. Even if it's just the slotter forum, the fact of the matter is that you guys complain that we're making your job harder because we don't know the workings of a system we aren't a part of.

Lets face it boys (and girls), lunixmonster is no longer a small group of buddies held together by a generous server donation. Instead, it's a group of friends, held together by those same friendships. We're here because we love this community, and  we realize it's the best of what's around.

I think that's awesome, but I also think that we need to be better. A few months ago (before WoW captivated my soul. Again.) when LB was having public doubts about the continued existance of this community, I drafted the attached up as a way to keep things going if he, or anyone else important decided they just didn't want to do it anymore.

The attached is a reflection of my ideal community, one I'd gladly pay 2 WoW accounts-worth of money for to be a part of. I can only hope that we can all agree on that, and create some positive change.

~Alex "Legionnaired" Bartlow

May 07, 2005, 06:46:10 PM
Reply #34

Magmatron

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It's pretty important to realise that before it even gets to anything resembling that point, there are weeks or months of spontaneous discussions or complaints in the admin channel about whoever. Debates are held on a whim and left for later. Mentionings in posts, actions in-game, quick PMs from community regulars, the countless little things that eventually build up into a problem. It's very difficult to present one comprehensive anything for anyone we ban who's been toeing the line. It's hard or impossible to present proof for the 1,000 non-bannable things that change an admin's opinion of someone that can make an offense the last, or to even list them.

TyrNem...blah blah blah

May 07, 2005, 06:47:45 PM
Reply #35

duherman

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Sigh, I didn't really bother reading everything but what's wrong with Esuna?

May 07, 2005, 06:50:37 PM
Reply #36

Dubbilex

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Sigh, I didn't really bother reading everything but what's wrong with Esuna?
[snapback]48066[/snapback]
He swears and he yells at vinnie.

May 07, 2005, 07:04:14 PM
Reply #37

SlickWill

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My two cents:  sometimes it seems like admins us LM as their personal ego boosting grounds.  Overall, most are good, but a couple break the rules just as much as anyone else.  This is my favorite community, but I have found that it has changed dramatically just since I have been here.  Maybe we need a bing internal cleaning as there seems to be a new wave which is active in LM, while the old wave is largely gone.  I'm rambling, but there are some points to this.  Peace all.

May 07, 2005, 07:37:59 PM
Reply #38

SwiftSpear

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I'm really torn between just crying good riddance and backing the rest of you here.  To say that sonic was a ****ing asshole to me is an understatement, and if other people were dealing with the same thing I was, I really have no ground whatsoever to say that these slot removals were not well deserved, and that in normal circumstances bans would have been applied long ago had I been anal enough to log and report certian convos.

I have no grounding or opinion on esuna whatsoever, can't say I know him that well even.  But I assume that he was involved in pretty much the same stuff sonic was.

Legion, TBH I think the whole server constitution thing is a little anal, expecially since alot of the changes it would make really don't work with LM's current system of running.

I think there are two main issues that need to be adressed here however.

1. What is the role of slotters and admins?  Some seem to belive that a res slot comes packeged with many responsibilites, others seem to dissagree.  The image of an LM res slotter needs more definition, because it has become VERY clear to me through the last two threads in the nomination forum that alot of us really have no frigging clue what a slotter should look like, or what we should be willing to accept in terms of slotters.  Does a slotter who fails to upkeep the undocumented slotter responsibility code really deserve to have thier slot removed?

2. Is it really healthy to continue keeping evidence related to admin decisions priviate?  To be honest, I can't help but think that you guys might be trying to get away with some arbitrary personal dept paying when you make a move like this and just say "trust us", I don't nessicarly belive that that is the case, but the thought does come to mind.  LM doesn't HAVE a solid constitution like legion wrote up, and hence you WILL have people questioning the nature of every admin action that is made; because there is no written down way for how things should work, every decision is to some degree based on arbitrary standards.  God knows we unban people who go through the PR forum often enough; you aren't creating an image of infalability for yourselfs; maby when you acctually are right, you should be defending your opinions rather then trying to throw your weight around?  Granted opening evidence to the public is going to create controversy and unwanted discussion from time to time, but in the end is it really better then the massive distrust that is currently being created?
<------OOOooooOOOoo, Hyperlink!
Final Hope Faith, COME ONE COME ALL

May 07, 2005, 08:08:01 PM
Reply #39

SuicidaL MonkeY

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This had me thinking alot on numerous subjects, in which i found seem to all connect together, and this is just my own feelings.  

We are all Humans, we all have our own Personality's, we all have a Life outside a computer.  In life we grow up to learn to have respect for other people, even if its hidden away. "Thank you", "Can i get that for you?", "how are you?", are all examples of phrases we use to show our respect to another person.

On the computer, people tend to loose that respect normally because you arent interacting with the other person other than typing or playing games. They see it as an oppurtunity to demean others in ways.  They either are the same person outside the computer or may not even attempt such in a face to face enviroment. Not on the Lunixmonster though.

This is a face to face enviroment, and your reactions to the admins on this decision have made me sick to my stomach. The admins are not robots, they dont calculate in binary for every word or every thought that comes from their keyboard or microphone, they are the same as me and you.

We all get angry at different things, we all have tolerance for different things, we all love different things, its who we are. Just because someone is labled with "admin", and given the jobs as such one does, doesnt make them invulnerable to other people's actions.  They make their decisions based on the Server Rules for the community's benifit. That doesnt mean their right to be themselves is taken away.

We all are a family here, we have these reserved slot because we love this community, and respect the ideals of those rules, we respect the admins for making sure we have a great time playing a game we all love, above all, we respect eachother.  But if an admin posts about someone loosing a reserved slot, and everyone who know the players are, either friends, or like their style of playing, what ever your reason is,  it is no ones fault but the one's who lost their slots. Especially not the admins.

This reminds me of when Seth was banned.  He was the same along the lines of Esuna and Sonic, spoke his mind without hesitation most of the time, great player, befriended alot of people, but many time swore "towards a person", not just swearing, recyling base when he deemed the game over. Then, if i remember correctly, he CC blocked at the end of a game with about 5 CC's before jumping out, after which he came back and defended his decision to break the rules. I am not defending or accusing him or the decision, but merely stating a point.


We have such great games, good friendships, and such fun on here because of many things.  Such as, the rules in place, the admins watching over everyone, joking around without making discriminating comments about each other, grouping up and owning on other games, hehe. Everyone has a great experince playing here because of the discussion we have other than in game, such as here in the forums or IRC.

I am not here to have someone make fun of me based on a kill by the other player, or a decision made in the field or as commander. I do not play on this server to have someones anger towards whatever reason be subjected to people trying to have a good time.

Swearing AT someone, ( ******* MONKEY *** **** YOU ****), and Swearing, (****), after a kill or a structure taken down are 2 very different things.

I hope you earn back your res slots Esuna and Sonic, we all want to be owned by you again, but not if its going to be the same attitude towards others who dont "do" what you want them to.