The problem, Part II

[LowCrawler]

why not just make it so that FFing the alien hive, even to MC to it, is against the rules?

[2_of_8]

why not just make it so that FFing the alien hive, even to MC to it, is against the rules?

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Ahahahaha... that'll never work!
"I did it by accident!"
"Lame rule!"
etc...
I really doubt. Either completely remove FF, or completely leave it in.

[UKchaos]

Remove it.

The TDing of hives to exploit mc teleport is too dominating imo.

Aliens can have zero map control, only 1 or 2 rts, but still easily come back by having one player put the hive and spit it constantly.

I cant belive how many people are voting NO. Do you like bad alien teams winning over and over because of this?

Also, using grenades to TD buildings for easy kills is also cheap.


The people arguing againt its removable have frankly, WEAK arguements. Most of the posts have been "ooh well, its been that way for ages and er I FEAR CHANGE!" :p

[AzubahF]

voted no, but would be interested in a trial period to see what it does to the balance.  

I like FF way better than non-FF servers, but if it makes the balance a lot more even... meh.

[Mr.Bill]

Right now,  a lot of people stack rines, least when I play, I have a confident team, but we still get owned.

Now if we remove ff.... whos to say rine stack dosnt stop? Now, you need a GREAT rine team, vs a nub, or slow aliens team, change to ff off, Itll STIlL be stax marines and aliens will lose CONSTENTLY.

I don't know, but removing ff will just cause the other teams death

[2_of_8]

Sigh... we're trying to balance the game on 1 server variable here? :|
I say wait for 3.x whatever next version comes out... in the meanwhile, stack Marines to no end!

[SwiftSpear]

As much as I hate the MC first crutch that we are becomeing so dependent on in LM, I REALLY can't support turning FF off.  Belive it or not, highly skilled compeditive players regularly play with FF on, and for some reason they don't see it is a major balance problem.  The fact of the matter is that there is TONNES of tricks to acctually take and hold the second hive without movement rushes, LM regulars just have to stop being so dependent on MC and start playing the game properly, where you parasite threatening marines and don't let them get near your second hive location.

I honestly don't think the majority of our problem is FF.  FF is definitely a factor, but there are lots of other servers that run it and still don't have the same face of problems that we do.  I can't honestly support the removal of freindly fire based on imbalance in the game, I personally just think that is a tragic oversimplification of the issue.

[edit] just caught 1/4's post right above me, and I have to agree.  3.0f is WIDELY considered an unbalanced version of NS.  I don't think we should be trying to balance the game with our control over that ONE server variable we so love, expecially before 3.1 is acctually released.

[LowCrawler]

yes MCing to a hive is cheap and so is the nade throwing... but there's always a way around it. IF the rines dont want aliens MC rushing then put pressure on the first hive, so that the mc's wont take them over there... better yet kill the chambers. FF allows skulks to hold a candle to HA with HMGs by letting it run around at the feet in the middle of the huddle whilst the marines rip eachother to shreds. The nade thing can be countered by simply no longer hiding in the hitbox of the RT, which imo is borderline exploiting anyway.

[pardzh]

Turn it off for a couple weeks and let's see how it is.

Or a mod to turn off hive FF damage would be cool.

[Rath]

I voted to keep FF, but I would like to see a trial period and some stats on alien/rine wins/loss for during the trial.

[A Boojum Snark]

Poll needs to be remade, as people are thinking this is a one-time-only unchanging change. It would be a week or two trial period. >_>

[UKchaos]

Just got off a game where we killed all alien nodes within 3 minutes (sans hive node) then they just put up a hive, TDed constantly to defend then once it was up.

 Leap leap GG. No teamwork required. ZZZ

[Ulatoh]

i've allways thought it was a little lame, personally.  Also, consider that rines nadespam anyway, the other marines just stay out from in front, and then go in.  Removing friendly fire would make skulkrushes feasable again.  instead of having to make sure you DONT bite your teammate, you can make sure you DO bite the rine.

i would say that as much as not being able to movrush sucks for aliens, the ability for 4 skulks to CHAARGE and say, bite down the pg all at once, negates it.

[Plaguebearer]

I'll be honest.  When we first started talking about removing FF temporarily, a couple weeks ago, I was against it... because I'm usually the guy that puts up and then babysits that second hive, when I play.  (At least, it feels that way.)

And hell, no, I didn't want to lose that advantage.

If we knew when the next 'balancing' patch was due from UWE, maybe the urge to tweak some settings to get some real balance in play would be less.  But not knowing when - hell, IF, given how long it takes sometimes - well, people will only put up with a 10% rine win rate for so long before saying... well, so long!

:/

[rad4Christ]

Try it for three weeks, keep stats, and publish. Then have this vote.

[Settler]

yeah, i think FF is what defines LM differently than most other servers, and it does seem to be a big advantage to aliens..

i think we could try FF off, see if after a week or two its more balanced (if that is what we are really trying to achieve), and we can keep it off or turn it back on.

[Nooblet]

Think about it, 1 Marine rushes into a hive, being watched over by a gorge, gets medspammed, builds a pg. comm beacons = hive dead.

Now if that ever so happened when skulks rushed MS all the commander has to do is becon. Aliens dont have that and on some maps the hive distance from eachother is RIDICULOUS. 2 Hive Lockdowns would be a very common, EXTREMELY boring and standstill resulting in long, ridiculous games which would cause many aliens to quit. (which we obviously don't want)

Plus Skulks cant be guarding 1 hive, they have to be taking down rts, guarding the built hives, and making sure Marines do not advance until hive 2 is up. I think it definetly WAS meant to be put in game otherwise it would have been removed imo. And if all skulks/ fades were to all die in this rush because of the PG shoot down hive strategy, the hive would drop almost instantly before any other aliens can get there to defend it. Since Marines just have to beacon and instantly get a team of 7 to that location within 3 seconds, Aliens would have to be strict hard on guarding that building hive which then causes Marines to expand, and even attempt to fire down the built hive.

Movement chambers are meant to unbreak the chain bound to the Aliens. If LM didnt have the Movment rushes I can guarantee you Marines would be winning most of the games if played accordingly. hence why shooting down hive 2 -> then laming up the map with turret farms / elect / research every damn upgrade for 15 minutes THEN rush the hive or siege causes MANY players to lose intrest in the game and quitting.

At least Last Stands for Marines are fun :blink:

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Ok, yes a hive can be easyly taken down with a ninja pg and a few sgs without FF on. Now MCs wont be the most sought after chamber, sens can be used more now to find the ninjas and stop them.

Now about skulks not being able to attack rts and defend a hive at the same time thats bs. 2-3 skulks for staying in the hive area, 1-2 out attacking nodes systematically and a gorge staying in hive to alert anyone how hard is it to use teamwork. Also OCs will come more into play now for defending a unbuilt hive.

Now the lameing end game marine crap is like a "OMG WE WON" thing just imagine if the marines won more they wouldnt need to do that we could also set a rule about prolonging the end game.

TBH the only way we're going to find out how much of a crutch MC is, is by changing FF for a "test period", perhaps 1 weekend. Thats two whole days, ideally including a reg night, and then analysing the stats from there.

[snapback]46876[/snapback]

I dont agree here we need a longer period to test this out. 2 days is not enough to adjust to different stats and it changes to much of the play style we are used to. I agree with a 1-2 week period.

[Guenhwyvar]

The poll really needs a third option.  It sounds like a lot of us are willing to have a trial period where we take it off.  Personally I would love to see FF stay, but I am more than willing to give it a trial to see if the FF is truly unbalancing the game.

[GreenGround]

When I first started I really didnt like it but i got used to it and now when I play on other server I REALLY watch my fire and try not to hit others I believe it help me to be a better player.  Also I think it also acts as a nice little filter cause most people dont really like FF and the ones that do arent Nubs, and have a idea what they are doing.

[Diablus]

Now about skulks not being able to attack rts and defend a hive at the same time thats bs. 2-3 skulks for staying in the hive area, 1-2 out attacking nodes systematically and a gorge staying in hive to alert anyone how hard is it to use teamwork

ever see 2-3 skulks sitting in a built hive, 2-3 skulks attacking rts and 2-3 skulks sitting in a building hive with a gorge? I haven't. Now explain how you expect 2-3 Skulks to attack rts, and stop a team of 7 marines from
A) killing the Alien res nodes
B) expanding?


seems to me that system wouldnt go "over to well" seeing how most maps have widespread areas, where in fact 2-3 skulks cannot be at 24/7 defending.

And please explain how you would persuade most people to be the "main hive guards", and the "building hive guards"?

i hope you do know people tend to play video games for fun, action packed games. Unless your Idea of fun is sitting in and outside a hive room listening for marines for the whole game while 2-3 skulks attempt to hold off marine expansion. while defending the Alien expansion. :huh:  and as for OC's i just have to say medspam > Ocs

the 2-3 skulks guarding hive 1 and then the 2-3 skulks guarding hive 2 wont get much RFK from Ninjas. So dont expect many Higher lifeforms to battle against the marine Upgrading Tech. And who would rebuild the breached Alien expansion / re-expand? (as you know, 1-2 skulks cannot be everywhere at 1 time, while 7 marines can)

trust me, i see how your point in theory could work but during the game, unless your 2-3 skulks are above average and you have 4-6 skulks who are willing to sit in a hive for a big portion of the game plus, the loyalty that people will listen it will go down the tubes.