The problem, Part II

[Lightning Blue]

Basically the topic has come up in the staff about FF causing major imbalances on LM...

I've always held the view that FF made LM a special place to play unlike most.

However, I don't play NS anymore, so could give a damn about it...

What do you people think? Discuss.

[Owen]

FF is a part of The Lunixmonster. Wether or not you love or hate it is a different matter. You'd be talking about getting rid of something that's been there a long time. LM is all about the things that make a game a game. Not quitting, not laming, keeping your shots and bites to the enemy, it's all about skill, not spraying everything. I say it stays

[Goldy]

It's good except that aliens can attack their own unbuilt hive and MC to it. That's kinda lame and doesn't seem to be how the design was intended. People can argue it's done in matches, but that doesn't apply to LM. It would be cool if it could be set up so that aliens can't hurt their own hive.

[lolfighter]

I'll just quote what I said somewhere else about this about two weeks ago:

Someone takes the bait! Finally!

I've been dropping hints about this for a little while now, hoping that somebody else would agree with me. After all, if I am the only one who thinks that FF is causing unbalance, I am probably wrong. I know that FF would be dearly missed if we turned it off, so I didn't want to outright suggest that before I was sure of having some supporters, or the idea would be so solidly shot down that, even if it had merit, there would be little chance of ever getting it done.

Let's recap how friendly fire affects marines and aliens:


Disadvantages:
Marines: Grenade launchers, previously only a threat to the weilder, now become a threat to the entire team.
In almost any kind of firefight, friendly fire will occurr. Now friendly fire does only a little damage unless done consistently (which rarely happens other than on purpose), but that damage can mean the difference between dying in one and two bites to the next skulk, which is quite crucial, especially at armor 1.

Kharaa: When destroying structures, the aliens have to take care that they don't bite each other, particularly other Skulks which can take critical damage from just a few bites.
Occasional td/tk when several Skulks swarm a single marine.


Advantages:
Marines: Grenades detonate on impact with friendly structures. Particularly effective for getting skulks off an rt - chuck your hand grenade (if you have one, which is rare) at the rt and it will take a little damage, but the skulk will die.

Kharaa: Grenades do friendly fire damage, making them dangerous for the marines to use, leading to less use of grenades.
Hives can be MCed to while they're still building, even without marines having to attack them - as soon as marines approach a building hive, an alien there can attack the hive to allow teammates to MC over. In other words, hives can be MCed to from the moment they're placed, not the moment they go active.


To sum it up:
Biggest disadvantage: Marines
Biggest advantage: Kharaa

I think it goes without question that FF benefits the Kharaa. Considering the high win rates they currently enjoy, the marines need any help they can get. Maybe we SHOULD turn off FF. Comments, corrections, elaborations?


Oh, and we wouldn't have to deal with TKing asshats anymore, either.

Even IF we turn off FF, I suggest we only do it for a trial period, to see if it changes anything at all. But I think that goes without saying.

[holy_devil]

as much as i love FF, i'm beginning to wonder if it is a cause of a problem in imbalance or not. we do indeed abuse the mc to hive trick here, which when combined with lifeforms just destroys whatever is in that room.

theres also the fact that leaping the hive or whatever won't set off an alert. any hits on the hive = really bad news.

then theres the fact that we won't be able to catch some llamas as easily, since tking seems to be their favorite thing to do. but then theres always the fact that you won't have to deal with the random paras or unlucky spits killing you, etc. biting an rt won't be a deadly situation anymore.

list goes on and on of +s and -s. comes down to mainly does it break balance? argueable, which is the point of this thread. i have no idea how it will play without it, but i'd like to try it at least for a limited time.

@LB - if we don't find it to change balance at all, can we have another vote to return to FF(provided we turn it off)?

[Mr.Bill]

Ill vote to turn it off, but only as a trial period, if we see that it makes it impossible for aliens to win,  I spose we could turn it back on, but right now I cant stand ff at most times

[lolfighter]

[...]@LB - if we don't find it to change balance at all, can we have another vote to return to FF(provided we turn it off)?

[snapback]46850[/snapback]

I don't think you saw my post, since you posted just after I did, so I'll just repeat: I think that goes without saying.

[Manta]

I'm not big on removing FF, as I do see it as a part of LM gameplay, with all its advantages and disadvantages. Taking it off, even for a trial, will take getting used to, but if it helps balance things out, I'm for it.

[2_of_8]

I say keep it - I'm all for the realism part of NS, or as much of realism as you can get from a future space shooter

Balance - I think there must be other ways of fixing it, and that's not to be done by server ops, but by the developers.

[Plaguebearer]

I'm not big on it either, but it would be nice to see if the aliens can keep up their 90% win rate without the crutch of "spit the hive!  spit the hive!".

[Plaguebearer]

Balance - I think there must be other ways of fixing it, and that's not to be done by server ops, but by the developers.

[snapback]46860[/snapback]

Pssh.  As if.

[moofree]

Maybe we need a mod that removes the MC-to-building-hive 'feature'
I nominate notme to code it


I can't imagine LM w/o FF... I agree w/ Mr Bill, let's do a trial period of ff off and release gamestats so we can see how it balances the game out

[Dead_Meat]

I like ff being on
I really dont think it causes the imbalance and i doubt it will do much to fix it.

I think the biggest problem with the gl's is reload time now I know if i'm a skulk and someone has a gl even a ha i think he's an easy target expeccially if hes alone once i can get him to shoot those 4 shots off he usually has to pull his pitol because a skulk can bite down a ha faster than he can reload his gl.

Personally i think if ns went back to charging res for alien upgrades and adding back in siege damage(not as much as before but at least some) then the game would be more ballanced. There are probaly several other things that can be done to balance it out but i really dont think turning ff off will have a great effect.


I did vote no on the poll but would have no problem with trying it

[Decimator]

A trial period of FF off sounds good to me too.  It affects too many things to really be able to tell without actually doing it.  Perhaps a 2 week trial period would be good?

[Krytos]

I say keep it.  It's part of what makes LM what it is.  There are very few servers out there with FF on, and it seems to me that those servers tend to have better quality players.  The aliens being able to MC rush a hive should be an issue for the devs like someone else already stated.  Unless that is, they WANT the aliens to be able to do that.  Maybe that is why the feature is in.  Can anyone confirm or deny this?

As for the marines, GL spam is a very dangerous thing with FF on.  I hate GL spam, both as marine and alien.  I think it is fairly lame.  FF keeps the GLs in check.  

Again, I say keep it.

[Diablus]

It's good except that aliens can attack their own unbuilt hive and MC to it. That's kinda lame and doesn't seem to be how the design was intended. People can argue it's done in matches, but that doesn't apply to LM. It would be cool if it could be set up so that aliens can't hurt their own hive.

[snapback]46846[/snapback]

Think about it, 1 Marine rushes into a hive, being watched over by a gorge, gets medspammed, builds a pg. comm beacons = hive dead.

Now if that ever so happened when skulks rushed MS all the commander has to do is becon. Aliens dont have that and on some maps the hive distance from eachother is RIDICULOUS. 2 Hive Lockdowns would be a very common, EXTREMELY boring and standstill resulting in long, ridiculous games which would cause many aliens to quit. (which we obviously don't want)

Plus Skulks cant be guarding 1 hive, they have to be taking down rts, guarding the built hives, and making sure Marines do not advance until hive 2 is up. I think it definetly WAS meant to be put in game otherwise it would have been removed imo. And if all skulks/ fades were to all die in this rush because of the PG shoot down hive strategy, the hive would drop almost instantly before any other aliens can get there to defend it. Since Marines just have to beacon and instantly get a team of 7 to that location within 3 seconds, Aliens would have to be strict hard on guarding that building hive which then causes Marines to expand, and even attempt to fire down the built hive.

Movement chambers are meant to unbreak the chain bound to the Aliens. If LM didnt have the Movment rushes I can guarantee you Marines would be winning most of the games if played accordingly. hence why shooting down hive 2 -> then laming up the map with turret farms / elect / research every damn upgrade for 15 minutes THEN rush the hive or siege causes MANY players to lose intrest in the game and quitting.

At least Last Stands for Marines are fun :blink:

[Malevolent]

I started the debate after hearing LF talk about it. I definitely think we should try it.

It is not the developers' fault that we play with FF when a large majority does not. If FF is truly a big factor in unbalancing 3.0, it's the server that needs to change.

You think FF defines LM? It has not always been here, and it was still a well-known server. FF doesn't define LM. The people that play on the server define it. Just as people became accustomed to having FF, they can get used to not having it.

It comes down to making the game for fun and balanced. If FF is hindering this, there is no reason at all to keep it.

EDIT: Spelling.

[Necrosis]

FF certainly means MC first is always viable. MC rush decides most games on LM, in my experience.

Ninja in, drop the hive, spit it and wait for reinforcements. Same for when you're breaking a marine relocate to a hive. I've used it when we've been on two hives and you're mc rushing the third.

Downsides - 40 or 50 res a pop, depending how you look at it, and no guarantee your team will MC in to finish it. It ENABLES easier hive defence, but does not make it certain.


Upsides - Hive defence relatively easy to organise, as long as there are enough MC to allow fast retreats to the hive. MC rush negates PG rushes, negates siege rushes. One alien can hit the hive long before sieges are even halfway built. Hear something being dropped near the hive? Attack the hive and get instant reinforcements.


Is negating siege/pg rushes a good or bad thing? I'm happy with it, because siege rushes are pretty hopeless if there's a few gorges in the hive, and the threat of MC reinforcment forces most marine attacks to be swift and decisive, which imho makes for a more enjoyable game for both sides.



TBH the only way we're going to find out how much of a crutch MC is, is by changing FF for a "test period", perhaps 1 weekend. Thats two whole days, ideally including a reg night, and then analysing the stats from there.

[Diablus]

id have to agree with Nercosis. I say we put it on a test drive for a short period of time, view the results and decide.

[Magmatron]

I've always enjoyed FF and found that it keeps spamming down to a minimum,  and forces players to work together more to keep from damaging eachother with random spraying and blocking lines of fire.