Early fade counters?

[2_of_8]

Hello people!
I'm relatively new to the LM community; I just started playing on the server a week ago or so. I've commed a few games here, and many games on other servers, but if I lose, the reason is always the same: early fades. 4-5 minutes, these devils appear, and halt my progress completely. They take out my res flow, obliterate my base, and slowly kill my team, one by one.
Now, how can I stop this? Basically, what I'm asking for, is what do *you* do to counter these fades. Do you stop them from appearing, or take them down after they've used that 50 res?
Thanks.
[edit]
PS. This is about browsing the LM forums... for some reason, all the posts in a thread are now listed only by their title, and the body is not there. I have to separately click on each one to view it, or see the thread in lo-fi mode. I think it's an option in my controls, but I couldn't find it yet. Can somone help me?

[That Annoying Kid]

as a comm what can you do?

get 3-4 good marines, equip them with shotguns, come to a room with 2 exits, station 3 marines around one, and one behind the door which the fade will come thru. Enter fade, exit shotgun pellets and have them enter fade, wait for fade to try and leave the room. Have person who was hidding get in doorway and *block* the fade while ripping into him point blank. 2 shots ought to do the trick, if not keep spamming it, and if by some miraculous reason he/she/it isn't killed they must be hurting and you still have 10 shots that do 20 damage  :lol:


Teamwork > fades

I don't know the specific time, but I think fades can appear within 4

[Crispy]

Well you're more likely to see Fades earlier on the average pub server because people won't be spending money on upgrades but more importantly because Aliens are more likely to drop nodes to get the res flowing early in the game.

Even if people didn't spend money on upgrades before the fact that there's no reason not to be upgraded means that Aliens will get more rfk. I think that one way is to have a small team or skilled individual taking down Alien RTs early on in the game to slow the res flow (this can also serve as a distraction to an uncoordinated team).

[That Annoying Kid]

yeah, I was going to point that out. Thats a good way to keep people from even going fade. Good people will fade in vents that can't be reached unless you boost, nubs will go higher evolutions in hives. Hence why whenever LB plays I swing thru the hive around the time one goes onos  :lol:

[2_of_8]

I just commed a game on LM, on ns_origin. We somehow won; their first hive was furnace, the one they tried to put up later was ventilation. Anyways, what happened: we got most of the left side RTs. We pushed for furnace twice; first time, tried walking in there with SGs and blasting the hive, didn't work. Second time, we put a phase in ore scanner (not ore extraction), and went in with LMGs, put up 2 sieges, and took down the hive. They were beginning to put up vent, it wasn't done yet, so when we got there, the marines just shot down the hive and killed the one gorgie that was left.

My point:
There were 2 fades in this game, and they didn't stop me from winning. Could the reason be a poorly-coordinated alien team? Or is it possible that ignoring everything and killing the hives being the main priority - could that win you the game?

The next game, I commed on ns_nothing, and we lost horribly, again, to fades. There were 2 of them. We made pushes for cargo and power, but the fades ripped us up as soon as we phased. Yes, we had shotguns.

And please look at my edit for the first post... about forum browsing.

[That Annoying Kid]

I know exactly what you are talking about, but I looked and failed for finding out how to change it.

the fades in the second game responded to the phase gate and probably turned it into a intsapwn once your phase PG hence why the shotguns had little to no effect

[CorvusX]

Well, I think it depends more on who you have as marines, and who the fades are.  I've single-handedly taken on fades, as have many on LM, but other fades can take on entire marine teams.

There's just too many variables to try and counter them.  Easiest thing is to cap most nodes, make sure they don't have any, and just keep pressure on the hive(s).

[Legionnaired]

You don't need to kill the fades, as long as you have enough weapons to keep them at arms length.

Go for 3 nodes in the field, then drop their second building hive at 4:30. Start upgrading your armory at 2 nodes. It'll be done around 5:20, when you can start handing out HMGs, to force map control, push you to 6 nodes, and get the big tech item of your choice. With HMGs and level 2 weapons, you'll be able to kill the higher lifeforms and steamroll into their hive, rad-style.

[A Boojum Snark]

PS. This is about browsing the LM forums... for some reason, all the posts in a thread are now listed only by their title, and the body is not there. I have to separately click on each one to view it, or see the thread in lo-fi mode. I think it's an option in my controls, but I couldn't find it yet. Can somone help me?

[snapback]36759[/snapback]

At the top of the page, just below the new topic/new poll buttons there should be some options for Outline, Standard, or Linear. I think what you have is outline mode, standard is.. well.. standard, and linear is the same as standard except the first post is shown at the top of every page.

[2_of_8]

Thanks, snark. That fixed it!
I think I agree with CorvusX. It depends on the team a lot... if the fades are amazing, probably the only way to stop them is either to mass the whole team on him, or kill the hive swiftly.
I'll be playing on LM a lot for the next 2 weeks or so, and I'm hoping to command a bit more. I only command on maps I know to the last detail - that being origin and nothing. I don't want to comm on maps which I don't know extremely well. If you're playing and I'm the comm, don't hesitate and advise me a lot.
Thanks.

[That Annoying Kid]

you don't need to mass the whole team, you just have to have a group of people worth there salt who know how to block a fade

[Niteowl]

I only command on maps I know to the last detail ...

I don't want to comm on maps which I don't know extremely well.

[snapback]36780[/snapback]

That is EXCELLENT

[FireWater]

Even the best fades are defeated with some planning and understanding.  I know as I've beaten exigent and terror fades in pubs before as comm with only pub marines, it's very doable if you exploit  the weaknesses of aliens.

First look at what you're doing on marines.  Are you locking down hives and rooms with turrets or electricity?  When is your arms lab and/or obs complete?  When do you start upgrading your armory?  These are the most important tech questions you should be asking yourself.  You can do plenty of things, and each one has it's own risks and benefits. 

My normal build is this: IP > Armory > 2 RTs closest to base > Arms Lab > RT > Armor1 > RT > Advanced Armory.  This does Several things, namely I'm getting the longest build time in the game for marines (the armory up) going very early in the game, usually by 3 minutes at the latest, often by 2:30.  This means by 6 minutes I have HMGs roaming the map, which is VERY dangerous to fades.  Contrary to popular belief shotties aren't the best fade killer, HMGs are FAR better in almost every situation to shotguns versus any lifeform bar possibly lerks.  If you have an advanced armory you shouldn't be dropping shotties, you should be dropping HMGs as often as possible, they're absolutely devastating.

Secondary build is this: IP > Armory > 2 RTs closest to base > Obs > RT > MT > 2 More RTs > Arms Lab > Armor1 > Advanced Armory.  This gets the Advanced armory at 7-8 minutes but you have motion tracking, which is a superior map control upgrade compared to anything else.  Use motion tracking like this:  As the commander, watch where aliens are going and direct marines to where they WILL be, not where they are.  If you are on ns_tanith and see waste has half a bar left with a skulk chewing on it, don't send the marine at MS to waste, send him to west to wait on the skulk.  Prevent aliens from attacking your RTs by simply having marines wait on them.  Proactive beats reactive in EVERY situation.  Contain them near the hive by constantly annoying them so they ignore your RTs and getting a second hive up,  then push in with HMGs and end it.

Last build is : IP > Armory > 2 RTs closest to base > Advanced Armory > 2 RTs > Arms Lab > Armor1.  This gets an Armory at 3-3:30 gametime and absolutely dominates aliens.  The increased availability of HMGs usually shreds fades, which tend to appear just as HMGs push out of base, usually resulting in them being shredded on the first run-in since they expected LMGs and met the first HMG push.  If I do this build I almost always go Armor2 instead of Weapons1, because what will happen is a skulk gets a lucky ambush and gets in 3 bites, which kills an Armor1 marine.  With Armor2 skulks take 4 bites to kill a marine, 6 with 2 medpacks given anytime after the second bite.  So if the marine has ANY aim at all he'll kill the skulk and continue pushing on, which is what you have to do to keep marines in the game as commander, sac res to push them forward.

Notice that all of my main build orders rely on an early advanced armory and armor1 fairly quickly.  That's because these 2 things will destroy aliens faster than any other upgrade combo in the game.  Shotguns are heavily upgrade dependent while HMGs are not.  Shotguns work this way: They deal damage based on pellets that connect per shot, not overall damage from just hitting a skulk with a shot.  If you wing a skulk with 2 pellets it will chuckle and chew your face off.  The shotgun has 5 inner pellets and 5 outer ones, both groups of pellets representing a pentagon shape.   It is very difficult to get all of the inner pellets and an outer pellet to hit a skulk, so what you want to focus on is getting the inner pellets to land.  The problem is this:  At certain upgrade levels it takes 6 pellets to kill a skulk.  This is why sometimes you shoot a skulk in the face and it still chews your face off, you simply didn't do enough damage with 1 good shot to kill it.  This is how it works: 

6 lvl0 pellets at hive1
5 lvl1 pellets at hive1
6 lvl1 pellets at hive2
5 lvl2 pellets at hive2
6 lvl2 pellets at hive3
5 lvl3 pellets at hive3

You should always keep the upgrade level at 5 pellets for a shotgun, which is why I prefer the HMG.  It requires less end-user skill to drop skulks, which resuilts in a higher reliability for HMGs.  As a commander, reliability and common sense are your best friends. 

Fades are far easier to prevent than to kill.  This is the easiest way to rape fades:  Do one of the build orders I posted above.  When those marines have gotten up their RTs, have them make their way straight to alien RTs and proceed to cut them down, even the hive rt.  It's often easy to simply walk into the hiveroom and shoot down the alien RT given enough marines usually 3-4 (1-2 usually results in people crying spawncamp because they have no clue what you're doing).  Use this method of determining alien economy: .5*# of aliens players = Good Economy.  Anything higher early game is a gamble, and anything less isn't very good.  If they go for higher you should immediately stop capping excess RTs and push their nodes, because what they're doing is dropping a lot of RTs so they can all go higher lifeform and get the second hive up that faster, which means most likely early on you won't have but 1 fade at the most.  Shredding the RTs before earn the res back for them effectively stops them from accomplishing their plan, plus aliens are forced to attempt to defend their RTs with just skulks early on instead of killing your RTs and harassing MS.  If they got less than the equation, then have people cap RTs while you pressure their RTs.  This way your economy gets exponentially stronger while theirs weakens under marine attack.  If they don't defend their RTs they don't have much res, which means if they even manage to get the second hive up, it won't be replacable.  If they have around .5, pressure their RTs really hard with most of your marines and use 1-2 to cap the map and defend the built RTs, this keeps the aliens busy while the tech is going and your economy just gets stronger and stronger while the alien RT withers on the vine.

The entire point to this post is that if you combine the correct build order with the correct early game strategy, by the time the midgames comes around you have this:  A strong marine economy,  an advanced armory and at least 1/1 or 0/2 upgrades, an obs going up or up, a weak alien economy, delayed fades, and a second hive starting after 5:00.  What this means is you have HMGs against Hive1 fades and skulks, which  usually results in marine wins if you simply do something not enough commanders do: PUSH THE SECOND HIVE BEFORE IT GOES UP.  Often marines respond to the second hive only once it's up, you have to push on it before it's done.  If you can't win by brute force, use wit.  I'll use bast as an example here.  If you can't get down a building refinery hive, simply keep aliens busy by saccing marines on it, get some res together and shotty rush engine while they're still stroking each other off after beating that refinery attack.  Often after one attack aliens will simply not think another one is coming, or they sit around and don't even hit RTs. 

Getting in a full Shotgun/LMG salvo in a hive usually drops it 30-40%, depending on what upgrades and exactly what weapons are available.  Pay attention to what weapons ups are out and what weapons are hitting the hive, then calculate how much damage they did.  Shotguns and HMGs do 20-25% per clip, while LMGs do 1/14th per clip.  LMGs alone won't do much damage, calculate them in pairs.  Each pair does 1000-1500 damage together.  Use these numbers to figure out damage over time, and relay that to marines so they have a clue how much damage the hive can take.  Keep in mind hive healing + dcs won't do anything but really repair single LMG damage, they don't heal very fast.  A gorge will heal a hive 1% per spray, which means it takes 20 sprays to heal 2 LMG clips/1 HMG clip/1 shotty clip.  They can only slow damage to the hive this way in time for aliens to kill them, but it won't survive long if you can keep battering the hive with bullets. 

Generally if a fade is within healing range, don't focus on killing it, and it's generally useless to shoot an onos in the hiveroom anywhere unless 2+ HMGs can focus fire on it for 10+ seconds, which will always bring it down even when being healed by everything possible (Regen, DCs, hive, healspray).  Skulks are easy targets, even with a REAL shotgun rush at least 1 marine should be picking off skulks, they're so easy to kill and once they die it starts to drag the spawn queue.  I can't think of a reason to not have 1 person shooting skulks, unless no one on the team has above average aim, in which case they're probably better off shooting the hive unless they have an EASY shot on a skulk.  This is why HMGs are powerful:  A hive attack with HMGs will shred aliens almost instantly, and then it's easy to kill them as they spawn will working the hive down.  Shotties aren't as easy to do this with, it's much more difficult given how the shotty works.

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Another strategy that involves hitting alien res, is  to prevent the towers from comming up.  Take central locations in the map and RUSH them in the beginning, even skipping over alien RTs.  For example, on Tanith, instead of capping Reactor Room at the beginning of the round, skip that and goto cargo, where it is a more central location and you are most likely going to run into a gorge at cargo, fusion, or acidic, depending on starting hive location.

Aggressive strategies like this do slow down your res flow unfortunately, but pay off immensly if you pick off that gorge and either slice down a tower, or stop it from being built.

Personally I feel its best to allow the gorge to start the tower, then slice it down, that way they are out all 25 res, BUT at the same time it is also important to kill the gorge, either way the marine team is at benefit.  Delaying the fades while only slightly delaying the marine tech is a very effective alternative to just building up and fighting them toe to toe.

Try the aggressive strategy with players who can work as a group well together, otherwise the chance of success is minimal.

[2_of_8]

Great post Adj! Really helpful, especially the build orders. Thanks a lot!

[fatty]

you still suck at lerk

[TheAdj]

I think someone's jealous.

[That Annoying Kid]

^^

2 of 8, this is why I just told you the basics, I knew someone who had everything possible memorized would come and learn you  

[Niteowl]

Way. Awesome. Commandor. Post. ADJ.

[That Annoying Kid]

also the

Generally if a fade is within healing range, don't focus on killing it, and it's generally useless to shoot an onos in the hiveroom anywhere unless 2+ HMGs can focus fire on it for 10+ seconds, which will always bring it down even when being healed by everything possible (Regen, DCs, hive, healspray).  Skulks are easy targets, even with a REAL shotgun rush at least 1 marine should be picking off skulks, they're so easy to kill and once they die it starts to drag the spawn queue.  I can't think of a reason to not have 1 person shooting skulks, unless no one on the team has above average aim, in which case they're probably better off shooting the hive unless they have an EASY shot on a skulk.  This is why HMGs are powerful:  A hive attack with HMGs will shred aliens almost instantly, and then it's easy to kill them as they spawn will working the hive down.  Shotties aren't as easy to do this with, it's much more difficult given how the shotty works.

is very true, I always aim for the small critters unless I have tons of teamates, and when we rush hives I'm always the one getting lifeforms so others can focus on the hive

[Necrosis]

Early fade counters?

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