Author Topic: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?  (Read 9582 times)

October 21, 2004, 01:13:01 AM
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A Boojum Snark

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I've been trying quite futily for the last month or so to think up a replacement weapon for the shotgun, as I have come to the conclusion that is the only way to fix it. >_>

I know most people like the shotgun and all, but I just find too many things wrong with it. [decided to cut out rant and get to the point]

Regardless of such things, can any of you think of something that could replace the thing? I'm thinking about the spot the shotgun is supposed to fill and what it seems too good at, but I've only came up with one mediocre idea and I would like see anyone else's ideas before explaining mine.

October 21, 2004, 02:24:08 AM
Reply #1

lolfighter

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I don't know if it needs a replacement. Well ok, if you remove it, you gotta have some other weapon instead, otherwise the marines have only lmgs, hmgs and gls left. But I can't help but think that the shotgun is out of place. Marines are about ranged combat and killing the opponent before they get in range. Aliens are about speed and close range hitting power. In 2.01, a good Lerk could use spikes and spores to safely take out a shotgunner from range, or at least force him to retreat. Now, with no ranged weapons beside spit (and we all know how extremely well gorges do against shotgunners, oh yeah) and acid rocket (hive four, you rarely get the chance to use it, I hear it's crap), you HAVE to play the shotgunner's game when you want to take him out: You have to get up close and personal, which is exactly where he wants you. NS has always been intended as a game of counters - the enemy does something, you do something else to counter it and void his advantage. The shotgun does massive damage, but is so inaccurate that it does very little damage at range. The counter, then, is to attack the shotgunner from range so he can't fight back very effectively. But there's no way to attack a shotgunner from far away, except spitting on him (oh please). The shotgun is imbalanced because there is no counter to it. The only way to take out a shotgunner is to get in his face and hope you can kill him before he kills you. In 2.01, I don't remember the shotgun being seriously overpowered. It was a powerful weapon, maybe too powerful for its cost, but it did not seem nearly as dangerous as I keep hearing. Maybe because I liked being a Lerk, and therefore liked to stay out of range and pester the rines with spikes & spores. I don't know whether bringing spikes back would solve the problem, but I believe it would lessen it at least.

But I've never played 3.x. I have no clue what I'm talking about, of course.

October 21, 2004, 03:01:40 AM
Reply #2

DynamicPerformance

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i think the sg is fine, and the counter to SG, doah ranged weapon, spores. or an onos will do heh

Dynamicman out...
Sorry, but while the dimensions on your sig are just right, it's a little big. See if you can compress it a little to get below the 22kb limit. -lolfighter

October 21, 2004, 11:29:41 AM
Reply #3

Necrosis

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SG is necessary because it always will be necessary IRL. It really can't be replaced because its fundamental to close quarter battle.


If anything, I would perhaps make it do less damage against armour/carapace. I mean magpies can survive real-life shotgun hits, and some birds could give the illusion of being armour plated. And thats a modern shotgun versus something not known for having strong bones.

Kharaa don't even HAVE bones for that matter.. So I think a shotgun nerf might be a bit more understandable, making it an early game weapon that can be countered by, say, carapace.
Necrosis killed Holy_Devil with pistol
Holy_Devil: cheater

October 21, 2004, 12:22:39 PM
Reply #4

A Boojum Snark

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LF: it's still about the same now unfortunately

Dynamic: spores don't exactly count as a ranged weapon because they are a slow-damage AoE weapon, and onos... come on, you are saying the counter to a base tech weapon is a top tier creature? That's like saying the counter to a silenced skulk is HA.

Necro: I hate to say it, but you can't really base anything off reality. It is true that it will always be needed, but you must remember that in a game you have to consider how it is on the other end. If I die as an onos to a group of HMGs cause I hang around too long or someone blocks me I don't hate it nearly as much as when you get shotgunned in the face RIGHT before you reach someone cause they saw your ambush or whatnot. Yes, the onos is a much bigger loss, but the blast-in-the-face is much more frustrating.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2004, 12:23:40 PM by A Boojum Snark »

October 21, 2004, 12:35:17 PM
Reply #5

-Lancer-

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what about simply reducing the damage of the shotgun? that way, a skulk will have a better chance of getting in and biting that MOFO, unless the marines are attacking as a team, in which case is normal to be overpowered.

 B)
BAM, problem solved!

October 21, 2004, 01:30:51 PM
Reply #6

Niteowl

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another thing is the sg is a very solid counter against redemption. which is a pity, a tier 1 marine tech countering, say, an lvl 3 redemption onos.
"I don't have to know an answer, I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me."
-Richard Feynman

October 22, 2004, 03:41:34 AM
Reply #7

lolfighter

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ABS is partially right: You can't be halfassed about realism in games. Either you attempt to be as true-to-reality as you can get, and base the game's appeal off that, or you toss reality out of the window and base the game's appeal off being able to do crazy stuff that you normally can't. NS is firmly on the "unreal" side.

But I'll agree with Necrosis that it'd be better to balance the SG than to remove it entirely. People will miss it. If it had never been there in the first place, it'd be different, but now the community would scream bloody murder if you took it away completely. I don't agree that it can't be replaced because it's fundamental to close quarter battle. I often hear the following kind of argument:
Dude1: "If a skulk makes it into close combat, the marine should be practically dead."
Dude2: "Umm... no."
I have never fully understood why not, and nobody's bothered to explain it to me. In real life, guns are ridiculously overpowered. They replaced swords because against a gunman you'd never get close enough to use your sword, and they did away with armor because you had no armor that offered significant protection. You have shields and armor that can withstand bullets to a certain extent, but you're still nowhere near as protected as a knight in his shiny armor was back then.
If NS was like real life, it'd be exceedingly boring, because aliens would be chanceless. The solution was to make aliens very tough. From a real-life standpoint, even the flimsy skulk is extremely durable - remember, it can take several bullets and keep on running as if nothing happened. The result is that the skulk (or "swordsman") stands a chance now. But the big advantage of the gun still stands: You have range, he doesn't. You get in the first attack, each time. I argue that once the skulk is in melee range and still alive, you've proven that you're not making adequate use of this significant advantage - and you deserve to die. And when skulks die in close combat, it's usually because they already lost most of their hitpoints on the approach. That's the fundamental weakness of skulks, and I guess there's nothing that can be done against it.
The shotgun sacrifices range for hitting power. When both combatants have roughly the same range, the one who hits hardest wins. And that's the shotgun. This isn't wrong either - the shotgun was made to tear through skulks. But the problem is that the aliens can't reverse roles. Normally, the situation is that marines have the range advantage, aliens have the melee advantage. With the shotgun, the marines can take the melee advantage - the logical conclusion is that in order to counter this, aliens need to take the range advantage. But they can't. I've already mentioned spit and acid rocket, and why they're no solution to the problem. I'll get to spores in a moment. I see two possible solutions to the shotgun problem:[ol type=\'1\'][li]Less damage. This just might do the trick. This is always the simplest way to nerf a gun. BUT, the shotgun still needs to be reliable against skulks. Remember it's the anti-skulk weapon. If skulks need two blasts from the gun, they're far more likely to get in a bite against you, or maybe even kill you. The shotgun SHOULD be extremely effective against skulks because that's what it's for.[/li][li]Roll back the firing rate to what it was in 1.04, but keep the damage as it is. The firing rate was a good deal slower in 1.04. A blast will still be deadly to a skulk, but against lifeforms that need more than one blast, the effective damage per second is reduced. And a Fade or Onos suddenly finding himself low on hitpoints after a blast to the face has a little more time to bug out before the next shot. The drawback of this is that the shotgun becomes harder to use. You need to make each and every shot count. In 1.04, most people sucked with the shotgun because they'd miss with their first shot (or only score a partial hit and not kill the target), then get chewed up. This will lead to a dramatic decrease in shotgun use (few commanders ever handed out shotguns in 1.04), as commanders see how less skilled marines get themselves killed all the time even though they have shotguns.[/li][/ol]In spite of my concerns, I believe that the second option is the best one. Make the shotgun hard to use, and at least the "nub cannon" feel of it goes away. It'll also fit the firing animation better.


Then there's spores. I got in a good deal of time back in 2.01. I tried being a Lerk whenever I could. That said, I couldn't be a Lerk nearly as often as I wanted to. Sometimes I built a lot, and by the time I thought (ok, now I can start using resources on ME), marines had heavy armor and the aliens needed a Fade or an Onos more than a Lerk. Or I'd want to go Lerk, but the marines had a lot of nodes and we had no Fade. That said, whenever I got the chance (not too many nodes for the rines, heavy armor not likely to turn up for another five minutes or so), I tried to go Lerk. My favourite upgrades were regen (you always took a few bullets), adren (for extra spiking and sporing and flapping) or silence (for that "where the **** are those spikes coming from"-feel) and scent of fear (nothing worse than a Lerk that can see you hiding around that corner and just sends in spores to flush you out). Spikes and spores were my absolute favourites bar none. I'd spore an area with marines in it, then watch their reactions: Usually they'd either make a run for it or charge me. If they charged, I could play the "wounded bird" game where you bait them along, always just out of range, but never too far away to seem impossible to reach. The possibility of killing an advanced lifeform goaded the marines along, and I made sure to always take a few hits to make 'em think they almost had me (while in reality I never went below 50% health) - and in the process, they kept running through the spore clouds I left along the way. Nothing more satisfying than getting a pure spore kill. However, most people learned to recognize this and stopped falling for, opting to run when they were subjected to spores instead.
And that's where spikes come into play: A marine who just runs out of spore clouds whenever he's enveloped in them doesn't take a lot of damage. He'll hide around corners to get out of the direct line of fire and he'll try to ambush you. Killing a marine who's wise to your act with spores alone is pretty hard. It gets easier with sof, but SCs are rarely used before third hive these days I hear (as was the case after a few months of 2.01). The trick was that in order to get out of the spore cloud as fast as possible, the marine has to run forwards. This means turning tail and running. At this point, you, the Lerk, are in no danger at all from that marine, and therefore don't need to worry about exposing yourself to fire. And that's when you switch to spikes and shoot him in the back. With the spike/spore combo, I did far more damage than with spikes or spores alone - I used the spores to force him into a situation where I could use my spikes to maximum effect without fear of retaliation. Without spores, you had to either spike while on the ground (very accurate, but you're an easier target) or while flying (you're harder to hit, but also have a harder time hitting the marines). With spores, by making the marines turn tail and run, I could spike accurately from the ground without danger of being killed.
Needless to say, this worked extremely well against shotgunners. No matter which of the two options they chose (attack or run away), I could easily stay out of danger while whittling away at their health. Now, without spikes, spores are greatly reduced in effectiveness. You have to rely on the marines charging you, which smart marines will rarely do. If they turn tail and run, you have temporarily routed them but they'll soon be back. And if you attempt to pursue to get the kill, they'll probably ambush you - and a shotgunner ambushing you is not a pretty sight.

Oh, and if I ever get the chance, I'll need to test with the new flight model. I hear you can't fly backwards, which is detrimental to the "wounded bird" strategy - you need to fly backwards while sporing quite often.

October 22, 2004, 12:31:42 PM
Reply #8

Necrosis

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I miss spikes, but I don't miss the ventcamping spike sniper.




A slower rate of fire sounds interesting, would mean you need to fire at the right moment or get toasted.
Necrosis killed Holy_Devil with pistol
Holy_Devil: cheater

October 22, 2004, 02:41:04 PM
Reply #9

Satiagraha

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I like the idea of a slower firing SG, although decreasing the rate of fire would seriously increase the learning curve for the shotgun

I also really like the idea of carapace being an early counter to shotguns. Carapace as low lifeforms seems somewhat useless as is right now.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2004, 02:41:46 PM by Satiagraha »

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October 22, 2004, 04:55:49 PM
Reply #10

TOmekki

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if theres less than 3 then skulks ambush and swarm them. if theres more get a lerk.
:o

October 22, 2004, 06:30:46 PM
Reply #11

fatty

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I like the idea of a slower firing SG, although decreasing the rate of fire would seriously increase the learning curve for the shotgun

I also really like the idea of carapace being an early counter to shotguns. Carapace as low lifeforms seems somewhat useless as is right now.
[snapback]31828[/snapback]
while i agree 10 res is too low for the current shotgun, i don't think defense chambers should get more powerful.

ever try movement first? ever? silence works wonders.

October 22, 2004, 06:44:25 PM
Reply #12

BOZO

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It's just going to get worse once b6 comes out, now that the hit registration and hitboxes  have been fixed.

October 22, 2004, 07:10:27 PM
Reply #13

Necrosis

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I'm sure with B6 they'll do extensive testing. Besides, they use high skill players who know where to shoot in the first place. I don't think game balance will be affected too much, if you get me.


A higher learning curve for the shotgun? Not in my opinion... more like it forces you to time your shot, as opposed to spam fire and hope you clip something.

It'd be really nice if there was a better correlation between armour, health, and weapon power. Then you could see real differences between the weapons, as opposed to "short range, long range, big creatures, structures".
Necrosis killed Holy_Devil with pistol
Holy_Devil: cheater

October 22, 2004, 08:37:24 PM
Reply #14

Satiagraha

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A higher learning curve for the shotgun? Not in my opinion... more like it forces you to time your shot, as opposed to spam fire and hope you clip something.
[snapback]31843[/snapback]

Precisely my point.

n00b: BANG BANG BANG Y U NOT DIE?!1??1

not-a-n00b: steeeady.. steeeeeaaaddyy NOW! BANG! *[span style=\'color:blue\']not-a-n00b killed n00b2 with shotgun*[/span]

unfortunately, the current shotgun is a bit easier to use for the average newbie because of it's rate of fire. Slowing the fire rate would take that edge away from the newbies who spam shots, hence a higher learning curve.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2004, 08:38:33 PM by Satiagraha »

We are the shadow that comes in the night and says "ARRR!"
"yarrr I'm gaybeard the butt pirate, and I've come to plunder yer booty!" -TAK

October 23, 2004, 01:58:41 PM
Reply #15

Satiagraha

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[...]the shotgun's extra weight makes maneuvering more hard than it is with an LMG.
[snapback]31855[/snapback]
Weapons don't affect movement... do they?
I thought it was just an HMG that slows you down, which really it doesn't, you just hear your steps which are farther apart and you're taller and such. So it gives the illusion that you're slower. Kinda like the onos, people think that they're slow as an onos. Not true. You're just higher up, so it looks like you're not moving as fast. Onii are actaully quite fast.

We are the shadow that comes in the night and says "ARRR!"
"yarrr I'm gaybeard the butt pirate, and I've come to plunder yer booty!" -TAK

October 23, 2004, 05:01:24 PM
Reply #16

Avs

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Weapons slow you down. Weapons also slow jetpack movement down. There is quite a difference between a lmg and a hmg.
Avs

October 23, 2004, 10:41:20 PM
Reply #17

Grimm

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I agree with lolfighter on the point that they'd never remove the shotgun fully from the game, but I understand that it is rather overpowered in its current state. Reducing the rate of fire sounds like a great idea, as it would require more aiming and less spray-n-pray. Plus, it would give spawning aliens in combat a little bit more time to try to take out any shotgunning marines in the area, and the hive wouldn't go down as quickly. If you know how to deal with the average player, it becomes easy to take down Fades, and cake for any lower lifeform, although it shouldn't be so easy. The shotgun does give the marines a major advantage, an something should be done about it.

October 24, 2004, 03:19:06 AM
Reply #18

lolfighter

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Another thought: In 1.04, there were a precious few people who could use a shotgun well. I, for one, couldn't. Giving me a shotgun was a waste of res. I'd die to the first or second skulk. Ugh. But I understand that 1.04 hitboxes (or hit registration or whatever) were borked for skulks too. In other words, even if you turned the shotgun back into an exact duplicate of what it was in 1.04 times, it'd still be better and more easy to handle than it was back then.

October 25, 2004, 06:32:09 AM
Reply #19

SgtFury

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I think the problem was in 1.04 shotguns weren`t really dealt out reguarly since they cost more and res was tighter for marines then. The comm tended to stick with HMG`s since they were a know factor and were fairly worth the res.

Nowadays both with people playing combat and therefore having a chance to practice with the shotgun (esepcially since you have to get it before other guns) peoples skill levels have gone up with it. Plus its cheaper in classic and therefore gets used even more again. Plus plus (:-)) since its the only weapon that really works on aliens/structures/hives its all purposeness makes it highly likely to be used.