Author Topic: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?  (Read 9578 times)

November 10, 2004, 03:10:09 PM
Reply #40

Diablus

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What about assigning it a new damage type? Full damage to small lifeforms, 3/4 to large lifeforms,  half to structures?

Sure, you can get to the hive, but good luck taking it down.
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best idea Ive heard in a longgg time that actually might be considered ^_^

November 11, 2004, 03:47:53 AM
Reply #41

lolfighter

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Sounds like SC. Concussion damage anyone? But that's hardly the point, NS is notorious for *ahem* borrowing ideas. This one is a good one actually.

November 11, 2004, 07:26:11 PM
Reply #42

Legionnaired

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November 22, 2004, 08:41:13 AM
Reply #43

DiscoZombie

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I've got a very vanilla opinion here but I think the SG is just fine.  sure it's powerful in the right hands, but if it were overpowered, then a comm dropping his team 8 shotguns would be GG.  

I'm not much of a 'twitch' alien.  my bhopping sucks and I've never been that excellent at knowing what angles to run at a marine w/o getting mown down.  the games I actually come out of with a good score are the games I use stealth, which is the biggest counter to SGs imo.  running headlong at a sg marine and getting blasted in the face is not frustrating, it's stupid.  falling on his head or decloaking next to him or setting up an ambush = smart.  the end.

as for the hive killing ability - sg rushing a hive is a beautiful thing, and I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. :p the fun of being part of a rush definitely beats the annoyance of being an alien and watching the hive disappear in 5 seconds, IMO.

November 22, 2004, 11:01:33 AM
Reply #44

holy_devil

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« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 10:01:01 PM by holy_devil »

November 22, 2004, 12:18:39 PM
Reply #45

A Boojum Snark

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/me hugs HD :D

Another point I like to bring into this is comparing it to the alien equivlent of a shotgun rush. What structure has above-all importance to marines? The CC. If marines have no CC it is probably a 0.03% chance of winning, and only then if they are fully teched up and suited out about to kill one of two hives.

So how can you kill the CC in under 12 seconds? Five onos. That is 375 res for just the lifeform, just as the 50-80 res for shotguns counts the weapon only, not other tech. On top of this, good luck getting 5 onos to marine start and through the obsticle course of structures to the CC unnoticed.

November 22, 2004, 03:36:00 PM
Reply #46

holy_devil

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« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 10:00:52 PM by holy_devil »

November 22, 2004, 05:07:07 PM
Reply #47

Legionnaired

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i have wanted damage types ever since i thought about that, so yea i like the idea. setting damage vs armor types for EVERY SINGLE WEAPON would make it SO MUCH EASIER to balance. but i've always wondered if its possible in HL
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HMGs do piercing damage now. Yes, it's possible.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 05:07:21 PM by Legionnaired »

November 22, 2004, 05:09:39 PM
Reply #48

holy_devil

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i meant is there enough room for a damage and armor type for every alien(basically every :p) and damage types for the different weapons? can the devs set the damage done, etc? D:

November 22, 2004, 05:20:19 PM
Reply #49

fatty

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:o

how to beat the 'unbeatable' shotguns.

1. scout your hives. its a lot easier to save generator on caged from being insta-killed if a skulk is in the vent from dbl to stabilityish telling his team when/how many are coming. instead of "why is the hive under attack? is that a leap into it? *the hive is dying*".

2. try out mcs and scs against decent marines instead of assuming they (edit #2, i mean the chambers) suck.
silence and celerity rock. all 3 sensory upgrades rock. many times they will work simply because the marines aren't used to facing them.

3. scout your hives!

4. force marines to walk in spores and constantly weld each other to do ANYTHING offensive.

5. scout your hives?

6. get a fade that knows when to attack and WHEN TO RUN.

7. bite their goddamn nodes on the other side of the map. dedicate 1 skulk to this. i hate joining a game on agora late as alien to find that ax1, ax2, the pit, and analysis lab are still up and completely unguarded.

8. don't assume 2 alien will be able to kill 2 marines, 3 aliens will be able to kill 3 marines, etc. overwhelm them.

9. pressure their base, make them choose to beacon/phase back or lose that obs and arms lab.

<edit>
10. scout your hives.
</edit>
i remember a few night ago on tanith (i think?) when you, holy_devil, were commander and i was on aliens. we got sensory 2nd (or first? me suck at memory) and i was a lerk with SoF flying around killing your :ph34r: ninjas because i knew all you would/could try was phase+sgs rushes.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 08:15:59 PM by fatty »

November 22, 2004, 05:24:38 PM
Reply #50

DiscoZombie

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I still think the win/loss % speaks for itself and nothing really needs balancing... if everyone had perfect aim, shotgun would be overpowered.  hell, if everyone had perfect aim, the LMG would be overpowered.  maybe for that reason the SG IS overpowered in competitive play, where the players are more serious/skilled - I wouldn't know, I don't play competitively.  all I know is that with average skilled people, like myself, sg rushes are not instant game winners.  in a 7 v. 7 game, most sg rushes go like this: 4 to 6 marines w/ shotguns head toward the hive.  I'll leave out the rambo factor and assume they're actually sticking together.  1 or 2 get snuck up on while en route and bite the dust.  the aliens who spotted them alert the team, and a couple head back to the hive.  the 3 to 5 or so marines left start unloading on the hive, often getting picked off while reloading.  if the alien team is actually cooperating, enough of them would be back at the hive to finish of the 2 or so remaining marines, who cannot gun down the hive in a nerve-wrackingly short period of time.  

I still say stealth is the counter.  you could just as easily say cloaking is overpowered.  yes, there are counters to cloaking.  a comm who pings a lot and builds strategic obses (rare), or just getting MT... but cloaking used intelligently (like not moving when the marines are reasonably close) can nail even the best unsuspecting players...

I'm not honestly arguing that cloaking is overpowered, just saying it's 1 possible counter for shotguns.  yes, it's possible to have a successful shotgun rush - usually when half your players are dead and they're already in the hive.  yes, it's annoying to be gunned down point blank in one shot.  these are just products of player stupidity and bad luck, though...

only time an alien team I'm on gets pwned, by shotgun rush or otherwise, is when it's obvious the other team has better players.  otherwise, people know where to be to stop a rush, and how to come at the rushers...

November 22, 2004, 06:17:53 PM
Reply #51

zerwalter

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the HMG kill any lifeform in one clip as well?

November 22, 2004, 06:50:10 PM
Reply #52

holy_devil

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« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 10:00:34 PM by holy_devil »

November 22, 2004, 06:57:19 PM
Reply #53

A Boojum Snark

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Thing is discozombie, rarely are shotgun rushes ever long walks to the hive, they are ninja phase gates within 5 seconds walking distance of a hive, and quite often there is no large amount of alien deaths when it happens. this leads me to my next point...

fatty, ninjas WILL happen, there is nothing you can really do to prevent it 100%. although this may be helped in b6 since sensory chambers will put marines in sight on hivesight, but unless they do something to all more than one chamber type, it still won't help enough.

November 22, 2004, 08:44:04 PM
Reply #54

LowCrawler

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This discussion on the core balance issues of the Shotgun is great, i really love it, but may I suggest we start another thread? The focus of this one is supposed to be replacements for the SG, not exactly arguments about wether it balanced and why not.

November 22, 2004, 09:58:41 PM
Reply #55

holy_devil

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This discussion on the core balance issues of the Shotgun is great, i really love it, but may I suggest we start another thread? The focus of this one is supposed to be replacements for the SG, not exactly arguments about wether it balanced and why not.
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indeed, i'll make new thread

sorry for teh hijack!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 10:01:59 PM by holy_devil »

November 22, 2004, 10:03:39 PM
Reply #56

DiscoZombie

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FLAMETHROWAR!

gravity gun?

 :help:

if it's agreed that it's unbalanced at least in hivekilling, I'd vote for weakening it, or take away its armor piercing capability.  changing it to a whole new weapon, I dunno.  I don't think anyone can think of something feasible yet creative enough... could do a 'medium' machine gun, but how boring would that be? =/