Overly Chatty Penguins

The Ready Room => General => Topic started by: A Boojum Snark on October 21, 2004, 01:13:01 AM

Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: A Boojum Snark on October 21, 2004, 01:13:01 AM: I've been trying quite futily for the last month or so to think up a replacement weapon for the shotgun, as I have come to the conclusion that is the only way to fix it. >_>

I know most people like the shotgun and all, but I just find too many things wrong with it. [decided to cut out rant and get to the point]

Regardless of such things, can any of you think of something that could replace the thing? I'm thinking about the spot the shotgun is supposed to fill and what it seems too good at, but I've only came up with one mediocre idea and I would like see anyone else's ideas before explaining mine.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: lolfighter on October 21, 2004, 02:24:08 AM: I don't know if it needs a replacement. Well ok, if you remove it, you gotta have some other weapon instead, otherwise the marines have only lmgs, hmgs and gls left. But I can't help but think that the shotgun is out of place. Marines are about ranged combat and killing the opponent before they get in range. Aliens are about speed and close range hitting power. In 2.01, a good Lerk could use spikes and spores to safely take out a shotgunner from range, or at least force him to retreat. Now, with no ranged weapons beside spit (and we all know how extremely well gorges do against shotgunners, oh yeah) and acid rocket (hive four, you rarely get the chance to use it, I hear it's crap), you HAVE to play the shotgunner's game when you want to take him out: You have to get up close and personal, which is exactly where he wants you. NS has always been intended as a game of counters - the enemy does something, you do something else to counter it and void his advantage. The shotgun does massive damage, but is so inaccurate that it does very little damage at range. The counter, then, is to attack the shotgunner from range so he can't fight back very effectively. But there's no way to attack a shotgunner from far away, except spitting on him (oh please). The shotgun is imbalanced because there is no counter to it. The only way to take out a shotgunner is to get in his face and hope you can kill him before he kills you. In 2.01, I don't remember the shotgun being seriously overpowered. It was a powerful weapon, maybe too powerful for its cost, but it did not seem nearly as dangerous as I keep hearing. Maybe because I liked being a Lerk, and therefore liked to stay out of range and pester the rines with spikes & spores. I don't know whether bringing spikes back would solve the problem, but I believe it would lessen it at least.

But I've never played 3.x. I have no clue what I'm talking about, of course.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: DynamicPerformance on October 21, 2004, 03:01:40 AM: i think the sg is fine, and the counter to SG, doah ranged weapon, spores. or an onos will do heh

Dynamicman out...
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Necrosis on October 21, 2004, 11:29:41 AM: SG is necessary because it always will be necessary IRL. It really can't be replaced because its fundamental to close quarter battle.

If anything, I would perhaps make it do less damage against armour/carapace. I mean magpies can survive real-life shotgun hits, and some birds could give the illusion of being armour plated. And thats a modern shotgun versus something not known for having strong bones.

Kharaa don't even HAVE bones for that matter.. So I think a shotgun nerf might be a bit more understandable, making it an early game weapon that can be countered by, say, carapace.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: A Boojum Snark on October 21, 2004, 12:22:39 PM: LF: it's still about the same now unfortunately

Dynamic: spores don't exactly count as a ranged weapon because they are a slow-damage AoE weapon, and onos... come on, you are saying the counter to a base tech weapon is a top tier creature? That's like saying the counter to a silenced skulk is HA.

Necro: I hate to say it, but you can't really base anything off reality. It is true that it will always be needed, but you must remember that in a game you have to consider how it is on the other end. If I die as an onos to a group of HMGs cause I hang around too long or someone blocks me I don't hate it nearly as much as when you get shotgunned in the face RIGHT before you reach someone cause they saw your ambush or whatnot. Yes, the onos is a much bigger loss, but the blast-in-the-face is much more frustrating.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: -Lancer- on October 21, 2004, 12:35:17 PM: what about simply reducing the damage of the shotgun? that way, a skulk will have a better chance of getting in and biting that MOFO, unless the marines are attacking as a team, in which case is normal to be overpowered.

B)
BAM, problem solved!
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Niteowl on October 21, 2004, 01:30:51 PM: another thing is the sg is a very solid counter against redemption. which is a pity, a tier 1 marine tech countering, say, an lvl 3 redemption onos.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: lolfighter on October 22, 2004, 03:41:34 AM: ABS is partially right: You can't be halfassed about realism in games. Either you attempt to be as true-to-reality as you can get, and base the game's appeal off that, or you toss reality out of the window and base the game's appeal off being able to do crazy stuff that you normally can't. NS is firmly on the "unreal" side.

But I'll agree with Necrosis that it'd be better to balance the SG than to remove it entirely. People will miss it. If it had never been there in the first place, it'd be different, but now the community would scream bloody murder if you took it away completely. I don't agree that it can't be replaced because it's fundamental to close quarter battle. I often hear the following kind of argument:
Dude1: "If a skulk makes it into close combat, the marine should be practically dead."
Dude2: "Umm... no."
I have never fully understood why not, and nobody's bothered to explain it to me. In real life, guns are ridiculously overpowered. They replaced swords because against a gunman you'd never get close enough to use your sword, and they did away with armor because you had no armor that offered significant protection. You have shields and armor that can withstand bullets to a certain extent, but you're still nowhere near as protected as a knight in his shiny armor was back then.
If NS was like real life, it'd be exceedingly boring, because aliens would be chanceless. The solution was to make aliens very tough. From a real-life standpoint, even the flimsy skulk is extremely durable - remember, it can take several bullets and keep on running as if nothing happened. The result is that the skulk (or "swordsman") stands a chance now. But the big advantage of the gun still stands: You have range, he doesn't. You get in the first attack, each time. I argue that once the skulk is in melee range and still alive, you've proven that you're not making adequate use of this significant advantage - and you deserve to die. And when skulks die in close combat, it's usually because they already lost most of their hitpoints on the approach. That's the fundamental weakness of skulks, and I guess there's nothing that can be done against it.
The shotgun sacrifices range for hitting power. When both combatants have roughly the same range, the one who hits hardest wins. And that's the shotgun. This isn't wrong either - the shotgun was made to tear through skulks. But the problem is that the aliens can't reverse roles. Normally, the situation is that marines have the range advantage, aliens have the melee advantage. With the shotgun, the marines can take the melee advantage - the logical conclusion is that in order to counter this, aliens need to take the range advantage. But they can't. I've already mentioned spit and acid rocket, and why they're no solution to the problem. I'll get to spores in a moment. I see two possible solutions to the shotgun problem:[ol type=\'1\'][li]Less damage. This just might do the trick. This is always the simplest way to nerf a gun. BUT, the shotgun still needs to be reliable against skulks. Remember it's the anti-skulk weapon. If skulks need two blasts from the gun, they're far more likely to get in a bite against you, or maybe even kill you. The shotgun SHOULD be extremely effective against skulks because that's what it's for.[/li][li]Roll back the firing rate to what it was in 1.04, but keep the damage as it is. The firing rate was a good deal slower in 1.04. A blast will still be deadly to a skulk, but against lifeforms that need more than one blast, the effective damage per second is reduced. And a Fade or Onos suddenly finding himself low on hitpoints after a blast to the face has a little more time to bug out before the next shot. The drawback of this is that the shotgun becomes harder to use. You need to make each and every shot count. In 1.04, most people sucked with the shotgun because they'd miss with their first shot (or only score a partial hit and not kill the target), then get chewed up. This will lead to a dramatic decrease in shotgun use (few commanders ever handed out shotguns in 1.04), as commanders see how less skilled marines get themselves killed all the time even though they have shotguns.[/li][/ol]In spite of my concerns, I believe that the second option is the best one. Make the shotgun hard to use, and at least the "nub cannon" feel of it goes away. It'll also fit the firing animation better.

Then there's spores. I got in a good deal of time back in 2.01. I tried being a Lerk whenever I could. That said, I couldn't be a Lerk nearly as often as I wanted to. Sometimes I built a lot, and by the time I thought (ok, now I can start using resources on ME), marines had heavy armor and the aliens needed a Fade or an Onos more than a Lerk. Or I'd want to go Lerk, but the marines had a lot of nodes and we had no Fade. That said, whenever I got the chance (not too many nodes for the rines, heavy armor not likely to turn up for another five minutes or so), I tried to go Lerk. My favourite upgrades were regen (you always took a few bullets), adren (for extra spiking and sporing and flapping) or silence (for that "where the **** are those spikes coming from"-feel) and scent of fear (nothing worse than a Lerk that can see you hiding around that corner and just sends in spores to flush you out). Spikes and spores were my absolute favourites bar none. I'd spore an area with marines in it, then watch their reactions: Usually they'd either make a run for it or charge me. If they charged, I could play the "wounded bird" game where you bait them along, always just out of range, but never too far away to seem impossible to reach. The possibility of killing an advanced lifeform goaded the marines along, and I made sure to always take a few hits to make 'em think they almost had me (while in reality I never went below 50% health) - and in the process, they kept running through the spore clouds I left along the way. Nothing more satisfying than getting a pure spore kill. However, most people learned to recognize this and stopped falling for, opting to run when they were subjected to spores instead.
And that's where spikes come into play: A marine who just runs out of spore clouds whenever he's enveloped in them doesn't take a lot of damage. He'll hide around corners to get out of the direct line of fire and he'll try to ambush you. Killing a marine who's wise to your act with spores alone is pretty hard. It gets easier with sof, but SCs are rarely used before third hive these days I hear (as was the case after a few months of 2.01). The trick was that in order to get out of the spore cloud as fast as possible, the marine has to run forwards. This means turning tail and running. At this point, you, the Lerk, are in no danger at all from that marine, and therefore don't need to worry about exposing yourself to fire. And that's when you switch to spikes and shoot him in the back. With the spike/spore combo, I did far more damage than with spikes or spores alone - I used the spores to force him into a situation where I could use my spikes to maximum effect without fear of retaliation. Without spores, you had to either spike while on the ground (very accurate, but you're an easier target) or while flying (you're harder to hit, but also have a harder time hitting the marines). With spores, by making the marines turn tail and run, I could spike accurately from the ground without danger of being killed.
Needless to say, this worked extremely well against shotgunners. No matter which of the two options they chose (attack or run away), I could easily stay out of danger while whittling away at their health. Now, without spikes, spores are greatly reduced in effectiveness. You have to rely on the marines charging you, which smart marines will rarely do. If they turn tail and run, you have temporarily routed them but they'll soon be back. And if you attempt to pursue to get the kill, they'll probably ambush you - and a shotgunner ambushing you is not a pretty sight.

Oh, and if I ever get the chance, I'll need to test with the new flight model. I hear you can't fly backwards, which is detrimental to the "wounded bird" strategy - you need to fly backwards while sporing quite often.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Necrosis on October 22, 2004, 12:31:42 PM: I miss spikes, but I don't miss the ventcamping spike sniper.

A slower rate of fire sounds interesting, would mean you need to fire at the right moment or get toasted.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Satiagraha on October 22, 2004, 02:41:04 PM: I like the idea of a slower firing SG, although decreasing the rate of fire would seriously increase the learning curve for the shotgun

I also really like the idea of carapace being an early counter to shotguns. Carapace as low lifeforms seems somewhat useless as is right now.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: TOmekki on October 22, 2004, 04:55:49 PM: if theres less than 3 then skulks ambush and swarm them. if theres more get a lerk.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: fatty on October 22, 2004, 06:30:46 PM: Quote
I like the idea of a slower firing SG, although decreasing the rate of fire would seriously increase the learning curve for the shotgun

I also really like the idea of carapace being an early counter to shotguns. Carapace as low lifeforms seems somewhat useless as is right now.
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while i agree 10 res is too low for the current shotgun, i don't think defense chambers should get more powerful.

ever try movement first? ever? silence works wonders.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: BOZO on October 22, 2004, 06:44:25 PM: It's just going to get worse once b6 comes out, now that the hit registration and hitboxes have been fixed.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Necrosis on October 22, 2004, 07:10:27 PM: I'm sure with B6 they'll do extensive testing. Besides, they use high skill players who know where to shoot in the first place. I don't think game balance will be affected too much, if you get me.

A higher learning curve for the shotgun? Not in my opinion... more like it forces you to time your shot, as opposed to spam fire and hope you clip something.

It'd be really nice if there was a better correlation between armour, health, and weapon power. Then you could see real differences between the weapons, as opposed to "short range, long range, big creatures, structures".
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Satiagraha on October 22, 2004, 08:37:24 PM: Quote
A higher learning curve for the shotgun? Not in my opinion... more like it forces you to time your shot, as opposed to spam fire and hope you clip something.
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Precisely my point.

n00b: BANG BANG BANG Y U NOT DIE?!1??1

not-a-n00b: steeeady.. steeeeeaaaddyy NOW! BANG! *[span style=\'color:blue\']not-a-n00b killed n00b2 with shotgun*[/span]

unfortunately, the current shotgun is a bit easier to use for the average newbie because of it's rate of fire. Slowing the fire rate would take that edge away from the newbies who spam shots, hence a higher learning curve.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Satiagraha on October 23, 2004, 01:58:41 PM: Quote
[...]the shotgun's extra weight makes maneuvering more hard than it is with an LMG.
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Weapons don't affect movement... do they?
I thought it was just an HMG that slows you down, which really it doesn't, you just hear your steps which are farther apart and you're taller and such. So it gives the illusion that you're slower. Kinda like the onos, people think that they're slow as an onos. Not true. You're just higher up, so it looks like you're not moving as fast. Onii are actaully quite fast.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Avs on October 23, 2004, 05:01:24 PM: Weapons slow you down. Weapons also slow jetpack movement down. There is quite a difference between a lmg and a hmg.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Grimm on October 23, 2004, 10:41:20 PM: I agree with lolfighter on the point that they'd never remove the shotgun fully from the game, but I understand that it is rather overpowered in its current state. Reducing the rate of fire sounds like a great idea, as it would require more aiming and less spray-n-pray. Plus, it would give spawning aliens in combat a little bit more time to try to take out any shotgunning marines in the area, and the hive wouldn't go down as quickly. If you know how to deal with the average player, it becomes easy to take down Fades, and cake for any lower lifeform, although it shouldn't be so easy. The shotgun does give the marines a major advantage, an something should be done about it.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: lolfighter on October 24, 2004, 03:19:06 AM: Another thought: In 1.04, there were a precious few people who could use a shotgun well. I, for one, couldn't. Giving me a shotgun was a waste of res. I'd die to the first or second skulk. Ugh. But I understand that 1.04 hitboxes (or hit registration or whatever) were borked for skulks too. In other words, even if you turned the shotgun back into an exact duplicate of what it was in 1.04 times, it'd still be better and more easy to handle than it was back then.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: SgtFury on October 25, 2004, 06:32:09 AM: I think the problem was in 1.04 shotguns weren`t really dealt out reguarly since they cost more and res was tighter for marines then. The comm tended to stick with HMG`s since they were a know factor and were fairly worth the res.

Nowadays both with people playing combat and therefore having a chance to practice with the shotgun (esepcially since you have to get it before other guns) peoples skill levels have gone up with it. Plus its cheaper in classic and therefore gets used even more again. Plus plus (:-)) since its the only weapon that really works on aliens/structures/hives its all purposeness makes it highly likely to be used.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Vitamin Lead on November 01, 2004, 06:34:19 PM: If it actually were replaced, what kind of gun would replace it? there'd have to be another, otherwise the gap between lmg and hmg would have to be closed somehow. (As far as actually ability to get and hmg.)
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: A Boojum Snark on November 01, 2004, 07:03:24 PM: That is exactly the point of this thread, oh silly vitamin :p
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Owen on November 02, 2004, 02:41:04 AM: a replacement for the sg... hmm, i think i have an idea.
Instead of having the SG, which is used in close quarters, and for hordes of skulks or something, have something that can do similar, but only not the shotty. I guess the only thing i can think of would be a flamer, but that's kinda pointless when it comes to other uses of the shotty, like busting open an onos.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: LowCrawler on November 02, 2004, 01:44:13 PM: Quote
a replacement for the sg... hmm, i think i have an idea.
Instead of having the SG, which is used in close quarters, and for hordes of skulks or something, have something that can do similar, but only not the shotty. I guess the only thing i can think of would be a flamer, but that's kinda pointless when it comes to other uses of the shotty, like busting open an onos.
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i think a flamer would be cool!

you should be able to set enemies and structures on fire and the burn do continual damage
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Kodiac on November 02, 2004, 03:49:44 PM: I never really noticed a balance issue with shotties either (sorry, i forgot who said that). It was merely the aliens worked as a team to ambush and kill them, and in general alien teams arent good at that. Yes, i know the aliens are supposed to be loners and all that jazz. But think for a minute. All that is needed is a slight change in tactics.
Scenario 1: One skulk down a hall vs a marine

rine wins, hardcore.

Scenario 2: One skulk at end of hall. Rine at other end. Extra skulk somewhere in middle

Strat: Skulk one pops in and out, parasiting the marine for his sneaky teammate. Rine becomes angry/annoyed, and come to get said annoying skulk. Skulk two falls upon hapless rines head and proceeds ingestion.

Outcome- simple teamwork > marine.

This strat works well with more than one marine as well, mostly because many marines arnet good at close range, even with a shotty when surprised.
And that is the key. Keep the mainres looking at every shadow and they miss the skulk in the bright lights because they are looking the wrong way. The bait can also be other lifeforms, like gorges, fades, whatever.

This strat does lose its effectiveness later in the game, especially when the marines have heavys. THis leads to the other portion of the strat. same idea, same setup.

Add a fade up close. Which will the mairne go for first? The fade? or the pesky little skulk that "can't hurt me I'm a heavy!!"?

I think we know the answer. So long as the aliens have the jump on the mairnes, they win, which is why i prefer movements (for silence) and sensories ( for sof) first. Admittedly, these need to be placed at the game start, but they come as a surpries for the marines.

So, I have clearly presented my ideas, but I may have missed the point.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Vitamin Lead on November 05, 2004, 09:28:10 PM: Quote
If it actually were replaced, what kind of gun would replace it? there'd have to be another, otherwise the gap between lmg and hmg would have to be closed somehow. (As far as actually ability to get and hmg.)
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:D o ya
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: SuicidaL MonkeY on November 06, 2004, 01:35:03 PM: finally......lol....

i would suggest making the shotgun into a double barrel shotgun....the same power as it is now, but it can only shoot twice before having to reload...

or possibly a futuristic plasma rifle or.....heh.....BFG 9000 :lol:
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: LowCrawler on November 06, 2004, 01:38:37 PM: Quote
finally......lol....

i would suggest making the shotgun into a double barrel shotgun....the same power as it is now, but it can only shoot twice before having to reload...

or possibly a futuristic plasma rifle or.....heh.....BFG 9000 :lol:
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i dont think thats a good idea. I mean its cool and all, but it doesnt really solve the issue, which i think is that the shotty is a bit too powerful against skulks and fades, and for hive rushing, and basically worthless against anything else. giving him more bullets just makes the gap wider, IMO.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: SuicidaL MonkeY on November 06, 2004, 01:47:56 PM: Low.....which is why i suggested not having the count for a shotgun at 8...and drop it to 2(throw in the dbl barrel)..come to think of it raise the realod time a lil bit, which means you'd need more than one rine with a shotgun to take a fade down..and if a skulk rushes...one shot miss other hit....and another skulk comes runnin...all you can do is try to reload you shotty in time or pull out the pistol / knife....monkeys brain workin..... :blink: .....scares me.....
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: LowCrawler on November 06, 2004, 01:52:15 PM: Quote
Low.....which is why i suggested not having the count for a shotgun at 8...and drop it to 2(throw in the dbl barrel)..come to think of it raise the realod time a lil bit, which means you'd need more than one rine with a shotgun to take a fade down..and if a skulk rushes...one shot miss other hit....and another skulk comes runnin...all you can do is try to reload you shotty in time or pull out the pistol / knife....monkeys brain workin..... :blink: .....scares me.....
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ok ok... now i get you!

thats a good idea, having to reload the shotty after every 2 shots. That would be a great way to reduce the RoF (which i thought was an excellent idea) without actually reducing the literal "rate of fire" keeping it so that a fair player can still kill, solving the steep learning curve that a slow shotty would present. But now that you have to reload after each pair of blasts, you still have to make each shot count quite a bit.
Most of the better aliens ive seen travel in pairs anyway, and making the shotty so slow that it was one kill or no kill would only serve to have a rine steady steady steady blam kill skulk 1, then skulk 2 comes and gets him before hes ready to shoot again. Lame.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Sydney Carton on November 06, 2004, 03:56:29 PM: With two shots per reload, I think most mediocre players (myself at the head of the group) would never be able to kill a fade, even with a couple SGers. That would increase the domination of the single skilled fade.

I'm not sure how skilled players would fare, because I'm not one of them, hehe.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: LowCrawler on November 06, 2004, 05:19:43 PM: Quote
With two shots per reload, I think most mediocre players (myself at the head of the group) would never be able to kill a fade, even with a couple SGers. That would increase the domination of the single skilled fade.

I'm not sure how skilled players would fare, because I'm not one of them, hehe.
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maybe then the double would be powerful enough that maybe *four* shots (eg. a pair of sgers) would be able to kill a default fade?

booj what was your "mediocre" idea?
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: A Boojum Snark on November 06, 2004, 05:42:15 PM: Well... since someone is actually asking about it, I guess I'll post.

The Flak Gun. (if you have played UT, get that flak cannon out of yer head)

This would fire pellets much like a shotgun, but would not do damage on impact. Rather, they would go a set distance (random between min/max range) then pop; "explode seems like too harsh a word to use. What this would do is allow the shotgun to be used against leaping skulks, lerks, and blinking fades more easily in that you would fire slightly in front of them so that they fly into the hail of flak. Just like what happens with aircraft in wars.
However this would also reduce the structure killing ability of the weapon to nearly zilch, given there is no damage done on impact.

So ya... not that great of an idea, I'm always trying to think up a better one.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Vitamin Lead on November 06, 2004, 08:28:45 PM: That's kind've a fun idea actually. I have another flak cannon idea: make it do very little damage, like 3 or 4 per pellet to a skulk for example, and have it fire little metal shards like shotgun pellets. The shards don't do much, but go through the first target it hits, like piercing damage. The bigger the target, the more damage it takes , so it is just as effective against all lifeforms, and must be used en masse to be effective. That way, two good shotties can't fend off a cara fade for hours, but they don't suck.

The double barrel idea was also good, make it do tons of damage up close, pratically nil far away, and have only two shots.

~VL
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Diablus on November 06, 2004, 09:07:29 PM: A bewt.

A steel toed boot so powerful that when the Marine kicks something, it instantly dies just like the shotgun does to basically everything

Just Imagine, a group of 8 Marines kicking an Onos to death.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: lolfighter on November 07, 2004, 05:56:23 AM: Diablus gets to ride the short yellow dropship.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: A Boojum Snark on November 07, 2004, 11:01:43 AM: *runs off to customization forum to request a Duke's Foot shotgun replacement

:p
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Clashen on November 07, 2004, 12:52:22 PM: Quote
*runs off to customization forum to request a Duke's Foot shotgun replacement

:p
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Already done! DR_FUZZY made one a while ago.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Diablus on November 09, 2004, 06:18:19 PM: you took me seriously? :blink:
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Legionnaired on November 10, 2004, 02:41:00 PM: What about assigning it a new damage type? Full damage to small lifeforms, 3/4 to large lifeforms, half to structures?

Sure, you can get to the hive, but good luck taking it down.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Diablus on November 10, 2004, 03:10:09 PM: Quote
What about assigning it a new damage type? Full damage to small lifeforms, 3/4 to large lifeforms, half to structures?

Sure, you can get to the hive, but good luck taking it down.
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best idea Ive heard in a longgg time that actually might be considered ^_^
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: lolfighter on November 11, 2004, 03:47:53 AM: Sounds like SC. Concussion damage anyone? But that's hardly the point, NS is notorious for *ahem* borrowing ideas. This one is a good one actually.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Legionnaired on November 11, 2004, 07:26:11 PM: http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=85155 (http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=85155)
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: DiscoZombie on November 22, 2004, 08:41:13 AM: I've got a very vanilla opinion here but I think the SG is just fine. sure it's powerful in the right hands, but if it were overpowered, then a comm dropping his team 8 shotguns would be GG.

I'm not much of a 'twitch' alien. my bhopping sucks and I've never been that excellent at knowing what angles to run at a marine w/o getting mown down. the games I actually come out of with a good score are the games I use stealth, which is the biggest counter to SGs imo. running headlong at a sg marine and getting blasted in the face is not frustrating, it's stupid. falling on his head or decloaking next to him or setting up an ambush = smart. the end.

as for the hive killing ability - sg rushing a hive is a beautiful thing, and I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. :p the fun of being part of a rush definitely beats the annoyance of being an alien and watching the hive disappear in 5 seconds, IMO.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: holy_devil on November 22, 2004, 11:01:33 AM: -new post
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: A Boojum Snark on November 22, 2004, 12:18:39 PM: /me hugs HD :D

Another point I like to bring into this is comparing it to the alien equivlent of a shotgun rush. What structure has above-all importance to marines? The CC. If marines have no CC it is probably a 0.03% chance of winning, and only then if they are fully teched up and suited out about to kill one of two hives.

So how can you kill the CC in under 12 seconds? Five onos. That is 375 res for just the lifeform, just as the 50-80 res for shotguns counts the weapon only, not other tech. On top of this, good luck getting 5 onos to marine start and through the obsticle course of structures to the CC unnoticed.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: holy_devil on November 22, 2004, 03:36:00 PM: -new post
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: Legionnaired on November 22, 2004, 05:07:07 PM: Quote

i have wanted damage types ever since i thought about that, so yea i like the idea. setting damage vs armor types for EVERY SINGLE WEAPON would make it SO MUCH EASIER to balance. but i've always wondered if its possible in HL
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HMGs do piercing damage now. Yes, it's possible.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: holy_devil on November 22, 2004, 05:09:39 PM: i meant is there enough room for a damage and armor type for every alien(basically every :p) and damage types for the different weapons? can the devs set the damage done, etc? D:
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: fatty on November 22, 2004, 05:20:19 PM: :o

how to beat the 'unbeatable' shotguns.

1. scout your hives. its a lot easier to save generator on caged from being insta-killed if a skulk is in the vent from dbl to stabilityish telling his team when/how many are coming. instead of "why is the hive under attack? is that a leap into it? *the hive is dying*".

2. try out mcs and scs against decent marines instead of assuming they (edit #2, i mean the chambers) suck.
silence and celerity rock. all 3 sensory upgrades rock. many times they will work simply because the marines aren't used to facing them.

3. scout your hives!

4. force marines to walk in spores and constantly weld each other to do ANYTHING offensive.

5. scout your hives?

6. get a fade that knows when to attack and WHEN TO RUN.

7. bite their goddamn nodes on the other side of the map. dedicate 1 skulk to this. i hate joining a game on agora late as alien to find that ax1, ax2, the pit, and analysis lab are still up and completely unguarded.

8. don't assume 2 alien will be able to kill 2 marines, 3 aliens will be able to kill 3 marines, etc. overwhelm them.

9. pressure their base, make them choose to beacon/phase back or lose that obs and arms lab.

<edit>
10. scout your hives.
</edit>
i remember a few night ago on tanith (i think?) when you, holy_devil, were commander and i was on aliens. we got sensory 2nd (or first? me suck at memory) and i was a lerk with SoF flying around killing your :ph34r: ninjas because i knew all you would/could try was phase+sgs rushes.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: DiscoZombie on November 22, 2004, 05:24:38 PM: I still think the win/loss % speaks for itself and nothing really needs balancing... if everyone had perfect aim, shotgun would be overpowered. hell, if everyone had perfect aim, the LMG would be overpowered. maybe for that reason the SG IS overpowered in competitive play, where the players are more serious/skilled - I wouldn't know, I don't play competitively. all I know is that with average skilled people, like myself, sg rushes are not instant game winners. in a 7 v. 7 game, most sg rushes go like this: 4 to 6 marines w/ shotguns head toward the hive. I'll leave out the rambo factor and assume they're actually sticking together. 1 or 2 get snuck up on while en route and bite the dust. the aliens who spotted them alert the team, and a couple head back to the hive. the 3 to 5 or so marines left start unloading on the hive, often getting picked off while reloading. if the alien team is actually cooperating, enough of them would be back at the hive to finish of the 2 or so remaining marines, who cannot gun down the hive in a nerve-wrackingly short period of time.

I still say stealth is the counter. you could just as easily say cloaking is overpowered. yes, there are counters to cloaking. a comm who pings a lot and builds strategic obses (rare), or just getting MT... but cloaking used intelligently (like not moving when the marines are reasonably close) can nail even the best unsuspecting players...

I'm not honestly arguing that cloaking is overpowered, just saying it's 1 possible counter for shotguns. yes, it's possible to have a successful shotgun rush - usually when half your players are dead and they're already in the hive. yes, it's annoying to be gunned down point blank in one shot. these are just products of player stupidity and bad luck, though...

only time an alien team I'm on gets pwned, by shotgun rush or otherwise, is when it's obvious the other team has better players. otherwise, people know where to be to stop a rush, and how to come at the rushers...
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: zerwalter on November 22, 2004, 06:17:53 PM: Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the HMG kill any lifeform in one clip as well?
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: holy_devil on November 22, 2004, 06:50:10 PM: -new post
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: A Boojum Snark on November 22, 2004, 06:57:19 PM: Thing is discozombie, rarely are shotgun rushes ever long walks to the hive, they are ninja phase gates within 5 seconds walking distance of a hive, and quite often there is no large amount of alien deaths when it happens. this leads me to my next point...

fatty, ninjas WILL happen, there is nothing you can really do to prevent it 100%. although this may be helped in b6 since sensory chambers will put marines in sight on hivesight, but unless they do something to all more than one chamber type, it still won't help enough.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: LowCrawler on November 22, 2004, 08:44:04 PM: This discussion on the core balance issues of the Shotgun is great, i really love it, but may I suggest we start another thread? The focus of this one is supposed to be replacements for the SG, not exactly arguments about wether it balanced and why not.
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: holy_devil on November 22, 2004, 09:58:41 PM: Quote
This discussion on the core balance issues of the Shotgun is great, i really love it, but may I suggest we start another thread? The focus of this one is supposed to be replacements for the SG, not exactly arguments about wether it balanced and why not.
[snapback]33904[/snapback]

indeed, i'll make new thread (http://www.lunixmonster.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2300)

sorry for teh hijack!
Title: Any Shotgun Replacement Ideas?
Post by: DiscoZombie on November 22, 2004, 10:03:39 PM: FLAMETHROWAR!

gravity gun?

:help:

if it's agreed that it's unbalanced at least in hivekilling, I'd vote for weakening it, or take away its armor piercing capability. changing it to a whole new weapon, I dunno. I don't think anyone can think of something feasible yet creative enough... could do a 'medium' machine gun, but how boring would that be? =/