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October 10, 2004, 01:07:10 PM
Reply #20

Geminosity

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~hugs fighter~
It's times like these I remember why I like you so much  ^_^

October 10, 2004, 02:16:09 PM
Reply #21

Uranium - 235

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I'll get you an open beta account, Gem, if you don't want to put up with the work to get one.

October 10, 2004, 05:59:30 PM
Reply #22

Grimm

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The game is fun for me. That's all that matters. I've never been big on MMO's; I havn't had an Everquest account or a Dark Age of Camelot account or an Asheron's Call account or any other long-standing MMO. I played City of Heroes for two months, and that's about all the MMO experience I have. World of Warcraft is fun, even if it doesn't have real-time dodging or 50 million character creation options or the ability to make fresh toast spring from your disk drive.


No matter where I go, no matter who I talk to, people would rather go out of their way to complain about a game than discuss what they like, either in the same game or in any other game. It really gets me down, and it becomes more difficult to remain optomistic when I'm surrounded by pessimists. If you all want to go have your pissy party about how a game doesn't fulfill every desire you have and doesn't have dozens of cool new features, go ahead, but remember there are those of us that can still find it entertaining.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2004, 06:03:59 PM by Grimm »

October 10, 2004, 06:13:38 PM
Reply #23

Geminosity

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I can discuss what I like about PSO for hours ^^

Wellll... as long as I don't have to do anything weird like IP re-routing or something ura; sure! =D

Grimm... I don't really have an opinion of WoW really.  I just have an opinion of what people have told me; I was mainly giving fighter a hug because of the general MMO comment he was making rather than the WoW one =3
I'll make my own mind up about wow if I ever get to play it...

October 10, 2004, 07:16:24 PM
Reply #24

Satiagraha

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What the hell is WoW?

We are the shadow that comes in the night and says "ARRR!"
"yarrr I'm gaybeard the butt pirate, and I've come to plunder yer booty!" -TAK

October 10, 2004, 07:19:31 PM
Reply #25

bacon_flaps

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Did you not read the very first post?
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October 10, 2004, 07:27:21 PM
Reply #26

Satiagraha

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I meant, what's the World of Warcraft. I know what WoW stands for <_<





[size=8]Note: Post 888! the apocalypse's little brother![/size]
« Last Edit: October 10, 2004, 07:31:48 PM by Satiagraha »

We are the shadow that comes in the night and says "ARRR!"
"yarrr I'm gaybeard the butt pirate, and I've come to plunder yer booty!" -TAK

October 10, 2004, 09:12:29 PM
Reply #27

bacon_flaps

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Arr, here be the "general info" page on WoW.

http://www.blizzard.com/wow/
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October 11, 2004, 03:28:15 AM
Reply #28

Uranium - 235

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Basically it's the first MMO game I've played that's been done right.

October 11, 2004, 03:28:44 AM
Reply #29

lolfighter

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October 11, 2004, 03:30:11 AM
Reply #30

Uranium - 235

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I think even EQ2 looks horrible, in a UT2k4 kinda-way - where the graphics are GOOD, but there's something intangible about them that just makes it look... 'not good'.

October 11, 2004, 04:13:01 AM
Reply #31

tankefugl (in a tent)

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Quote
I'll have that much faith in Blizzard: They do what they say that they'll do. If only they'd ever do something that hasn't been done a million times already. The MMORPG genre needs a massive overhaul, and Blizzard won't be the ones to do it. We need a bold risktaker developer to dare to something new and pull the genre out of the gutter. Blizzard's WoW may be king when it ships, but it'll still be king of the sewage.
[snapback]30915[/snapback]

Blizzard has never been known to do NEW things. They focus on doing old things right, or at least much much better than previous similar games. Inovation is for the independent, polish is for the giants.

I have great faith in WoW, mainly because of what I've experienced of Blizzard games before.

October 11, 2004, 07:44:19 AM
Reply #32

lolfighter

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I agree, except that no amount of polish will do any good. Crap, no matter how long you polish it, remains crap. For every layer of crap you polish away, there's a new layer of crap. Keep polishing until there's no more crap left, and you'll notice that there is NOTHING left. That's why the genre NEEDS innovation, not Polizzard. People will STILL buy the game though, so for all intents and purposes, it will be hugely successful, leading to even more emphasis on polish and even less on innovation. Welcome to the world of "Everjest 2005", "Basheron's Mall 2k5", "Dark Age of Ramelot '05", "World of Barcraft Drunkard Edition" and so on and so forth.

Blizzard needs to genres that are actually GOOD. Have 'em make a FPS or something like that, and I'll have faith that it'll be good. But genres where innovation is a scarce but desperately needed resource, they're not Blizzard's area of expertise. They probably know that too, but the allure of the "buy the game every month" payment scheme is just too hard to resist.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2004, 07:44:57 AM by lolfighter »

October 11, 2004, 11:04:45 AM
Reply #33

Geminosity

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we need MMOAAG (Massively Multiplayer Online Action Adventure Gaming).

You know you want it =3

October 11, 2004, 04:38:07 PM
Reply #34

Grimm

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Uranium: Glad to know I'm not crazy when I try to explain to my friend  why I don't like EQ2's graphics.

Geminosity: Of course I'd want it.

lolfighter: It isn't so much polish as it is fixing a lot of problems that occur in MMO's. Blizzard is doing a very nice job of making the game flow better, allow users to become more involved with their character by providing more solid content, and fulfilling the wish of people everywhere to play in the Warcraft universe from the perspective of one person instead of an invisible hand commanding massive armies.

Yes, there are games that don't bring any new ideas to the industry, but that doesn't mean a game should absolutely have to bring out something new. There are a lot of games out there that brought some really cool new idea, but turn out to be gimmicks, like the destructable walls and floors in Red Faction. And the games that do bring some new idea, some new innovation, like Planetside, get bashed to hell for no good reason.

And in the end, if you really want to see some changes made, you can't sit idly by complaining and expect things to magically happen. Get involved in a community, express your interests and ideas; chances are there are other people with similar views who would join you and speak up more about what they want to see.

October 12, 2004, 06:32:14 AM
Reply #35

lolfighter

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[...]fulfilling the wish of people everywhere[...]
[snapback]31044[/snapback]
If Blizzard was fulfilling the wish of people everywhere, they'd be making Starcraft 2. Remember the UPROAR when Blizzard's next game was announced to be not the Starcraft 2 that everyone craved, but a MMORPG in the Warcraft universe?

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[...]Get involved in a community[...]
[snapback]31044[/snapback]
Lunixmonster takes a fair bit of work. So does building a rep to the point of people listening to you in a new community. Don't have the time for both.

Just give me something to do when I'm fighting, for chrissakes. Make me more than a spectator to a mathematical equation solving itself. Take a very simplistic example:
Ever played FFX? One character, Auron, had a series of special moves. To trigger them, you'd enter key combinations. Try a combat system like that. You get a base chance to hit, based on your level, character class, equipment, level of enemy etc. When you're getting ready to make an attack, a string of keys that have to be pressed in sequence pops up, and you have to press them inside a given time limit. Fail to do so in time and you get only base damage and base chance to hit (both inadequate), do it in time and your attack gets modified by how much time you had left. 5% extra chance to hit per second, for example. Maybe bonus points for making no mistakes while entering the combination. Add symbols that you have to click with your mouse. Leftclick, rightclick, doubleclick etc. Or implement some other kind of combat system, but make it one where my actions are key to victory.

"In MMORPG, game plays YOU!" That's my main beef, and WoW isn't doing anything about it. Currently, MMORPGs are like Progress Quest with built-in IRC functionality.

October 12, 2004, 09:47:49 AM
Reply #36

Grimm

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I have to admit that I wasn't part of any major communities that posted anything about the announcement of WoW instead of a second Starcraft. However, I have read a lot about what other people want in a new Starcraft, and from the looks of it, Blizzard might have good reason in waiting. First there's the debate between keeping it two dimensional or making it three dimensional; A lot of people would rather have a more 'classic' look to it, while a lot of others want to see Starcraft in some solid 3D glory. Then there's the idea of if they'll impliment the Hero system that Warcraft III brought in, as well as having to create new units and structures for each race. It takes a lot of time and effort to create the games that Blizzard has created, it isn't just a fluke or dumb luck. They can't go around pleasing everybody everywhere, especially if a lot of people don't speak up for what they want to see.

You aren't constantly stationary when fighting an enemy in WoW. You can move around to avoid their melee attacks; granted not in the same dodging style of PSO, but you can still be mobile while attacking. I know it isn't anything new and amazing, I know it isn't incredibly creative, but I do know that it is fun. The key combinations idea is certainly very innovative, but it sounds like the encounters would be stale as each person stands in a stationary spot while typing out the combination. Think "Typing of the Dead" in an MMO, and that doesn't sound all that entertaining.

October 13, 2004, 06:04:45 AM
Reply #37

lolfighter

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The key combinations idea was just that - an idea. A quickly thought-up one at that. I didn't say it should be implemented "as-is". Heck, for all I care, make combat in MMORPGs like in Devil May Cry: Full of action, and far more skill-driven than stat-driven. Some would argue that this "isn't an rpg", when really they couldn't be more wrong.
An RPG is defined as a "role-playing game". Some people equate this to stats, but that's far from the truth. A role-playing game is defined as a game where you play a different role. You need to think inside character, act inside character, etc. etc. You're not roleplaying properly before you get into moral conflicts with YOURSELF because you want to do something like kill a deer, only to then remember that you're a druid and can't really do such things. The key to role-playing, then, is immersion, and I'll argue that immersing yourself in a game is far easier when you're actually controlling your character instead of spectating him. Some people are natural-born roleplayers, most have a hard time with it. Developers, extend a hand to 'em. Pretty graphics are not all that immersive by themselves. Make them PLAY the game, not watch it while chatting with their buddies.

October 13, 2004, 04:31:30 PM
Reply #38

Grimm

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You're making assumptions when explaining what "Role playing" is; I've never thought that in order for something to be an RPG, it had to have numbers and stats. I've enjoyed many games like Devil May Cry and the Zelda series; Action-adventure games where you are playing a character without a typical RPG stat system, no but you do find ways of improving your character as you progress through the game by getting new weapons and learning new abilities. I understand the idea and I enjoy the gameplay a lot.

I really think you should play the game before you argue that the player is merely 'watching the game'; There is nothing automatic about any of it except for a basic melee attack, and if you go around trying to use that constantly, you'll get your ass kicked. You have to decide when and in what order to use your other abilities, and factors such as mana/energy, cooldown time, and which ability is better at a certain situation come into play. Do I take the chanceI blast this Kodo with some damage to try to kill it before it kills my partner? Or do I heal my partner first to guarantee his survival? The former would probably generate enough aggro to distract the beast to attack me, but I might be low on mana when I need to heal myself, while the latter might drain enough mana that I won't be able to cast any damaging spells against the beast, thus prolonging the battle. And the game was made so the macros cannot be abused; one attack per macro, preventing long chains of attacks/ability uses to basically bot your way through the game.

Also, the 'stats' in World of Warcraft aren't like the stats in most normal games; When you level, you don't get a certain number of stat points to allocate into strength, agility, energy, etc. You do gain stat points, but it's an automatic thing that increases depending on your class. There is a stat-type thing along the lines of weapon and magic proficiencies; The more I use a stave to attack things, the more skill I gain for that weapon, and so on for different weapons and types of spells. The talent system will give you points that you can use to increase something specific about your character, like mana regeneration, but that's about as close to choosing stats as it gets.

October 14, 2004, 05:57:52 AM
Reply #39

lolfighter

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Sounds like DAoC, which arguably had the best combat system of any mmorpg I've played. It's not good enough for me (read: there's not enough action), but it's a step in the right direction. Could somebody who has tried both DAoC and WoW tell me whether my assumption is correct that the combat systems are somewhat alike?