Final Hope Faith

[Slink]

(pardon my spam, this will be brief)

i have never in my life taken a single programming class.  Never tried to code a darn thing.

and yet...

and yet, i've hung out with enough full-blown computer nerds and tech freaks, that i comprehend quite well what black mage just said.

i'm not sure what to make of this revelation...


(on topic now...)

Extremists drive me crazy.  Doesn't matter what particular flavor of extremists, be it militant animal rights nuts, religious right loonies, or vallina bean with a cherry on top.  It's the narrowmindedness that rubs me the wrong way.  (though if you really want to bake your noodle, consider that i am taking an extremist viewpoint myself...)  Anyway.  After taking a sec to look at this board, this sounds like something that i, by and large an atheist, endorse fully.  I may have differing opinions on some of the particular viewpoints, but you seem to be openminded about differing opinions.  Heck, it's interesting enough to me that i'll prolly read this place on a regular basis.  

Rock on!

[SwiftSpear]

(pardon my spam, this will be brief)

i have never in my life taken a single programming class.  Never tried to code a darn thing.

and yet...

and yet, i've hung out with enough full-blown computer nerds and tech freaks, that i comprehend quite well what black mage just said.

i'm not sure what to make of this revelation...


(on topic now...)

Extremists drive me crazy.  Doesn't matter what particular flavor of extremists, be it militant animal rights nuts, religious right loonies, or vallina bean with a cherry on top.  It's the narrowmindedness that rubs me the wrong way.  (though if you really want to bake your noodle, consider that i am taking an extremist viewpoint myself...)  Anyway.  After taking a sec to look at this board, this sounds like something that i, by and large an atheist, endorse fully.  I may have differing opinions on some of the particular viewpoints, but you seem to be openminded about differing opinions.  Heck, it's interesting enough to me that i'll prolly read this place on a regular basis. 

Rock on!

Extreamists drive everyone crazy,

The world - Extreamists = Easy place to live.


I have nothing against people forming opinions or bias, but it starts to bug me when they actively ignore the other side's point of veiw...

[Dubbilex]

Actually, I've read the Davinvi Code.  And I've also partially read "Cracking the Davinci Code," one of the dozens of books debunking it.  Or so they advertise, anyway.

I'll admit - I was moved by the DaVinci code.  I believed everything I read.  ANd then I grew some common sense and realized that this book was about as feasable as the storyline to Deus Ex (as in, it's surely very possible but is so revelatory that it can't really be taken as a complete truth).  Of course, I was rather disgusted with the "debunk" book, as the only historical proof that it used to prove The DaVinci Code wrong was the bible. :wacko:
 
Now, this is something flawed from the start.  How can one prove that a book that undermines the credibility of a certain other book is valid by using that certain other book?  It's just plain lunacy.  Of course, it also doesn't help that the authors of this 'debunk book' are both pastors.

So for now, I'm sticking with Dan Brown.  Or somewhere approximately close to him.  If faith is something so deeply ingrained in the christian soul, why would one feel the need to defend it?  Doesn't that betray the very definition of faith?  Are the authors proving something to the rest of the world or are they merely trying to prove something to themselves and reaffirm their own weak faith?

In conclusion, my stance is that if you have faith in something you won't feel the need to defend it because you already know it to be the truth.

[Black Mage]

i would add something to what dubbs said, but it would be a huge spoiler for those who haven't read the book

edit: let's try it spoilerfree:
the author does justify the creation of his book by having one charachter (with some authority over the topic) say the it was ok for another charachter to publish a book on the same topic of the actual book ... gg nospoilermode

[lolfighter]

What the hell is the da vinci code anyway? Something that discredits the bible? Haven't we had that a few hundred times already?

[JHunz]

So for now, I'm sticking with Dan Brown.  Or somewhere approximately close to him.  If faith is something so deeply ingrained in the christian soul, why would one feel the need to defend it?  Doesn't that betray the very definition of faith?  Are the authors proving something to the rest of the world or are they merely trying to prove something to themselves and reaffirm their own weak faith?

In conclusion, my stance is that if you have faith in something you won't feel the need to defend it because you already know it to be the truth

So the thing that is most important to you is not worth defending?  Think of something that means the most to you in the world - I dunno, maybe it's your mother.  Now imagine a guy comes up to you and offers you "proof" that your mother was a whore and the man you know as your father is actually just the guy she settled down with after getting pregnant with another guy.  Would you defend her?  Or would you just smile and nod because you know it isn't true?

Now, the Da Vinci code is a good book.  It's a very good book, and I liked it a lot.  But it is fiction, and far too many people are taking every word in it as truth just because it's on the New York Times bestseller list.

[Dubbilex]

What the hell is the da vinci code anyway? Something that discredits the bible? Haven't we had that a few hundred times already?

Basically it discredits everything in the bible and makes a damn good case of it.

It's the kind of book that my mother would read and reach an absolute epiphany.  However, the conttoversy comes from the fact that various holy-rollers claim that it's all complete fiction and that nothing in it could possibly be correct.  To the average heathen like me, though, it makes much more sense than that other book about religion. The Bible.  Yeah, that's it.

So the thing that is most important to you is not worth defending? Think of something that means the most to you in the world - I dunno, maybe it's your mother. Now imagine a guy comes up to you and offers you "proof" that your mother was a whore and the man you know as your father is actually just the guy she settled down with after getting pregnant with another guy. Would you defend her? Or would you just smile and nod because you know it isn't true?

Now, the Da Vinci code is a good book. It's a very good book, and I liked it a lot. But it is fiction, and far too many people are taking every word in it as truth just because it's on the New York Times bestseller list.

If I knew that my mother was never a prostitute, and I know she was never a prostitute (I hope OGM :blink:), I would find absolutely no reason to contend the man's claim.  If I know that she was never a whore then what the crap does anything that anyone else thinks matter, let alone this random stranger?   That's the foundation of true faith.  I don't need to prove him wrong so I can prove myself right - I already am positively dead-set in the fact that I am right.



But then one could say, "But Dubbilex, why are you bothering to argue this point if you think changing anyone's mind is an excercise in futility?"

And I'll respond by staring blankly and say "Huh?"

[SwiftSpear]

Isn't the premise of Da Vinci code that various governments in Da Vinci's time period change a good section of the bible so that it would be easyer to control the population or something?

[Niteowl]

has nite read the da vinci code?
if nite.has_read.book(dvc){
cout << "keke"; }
else {
cout << "go read it now";
};

bah, i read Holy Blood, Holy Grail, and a few other ones that came out WAAAY before the da vinci code, same sorta typa stuff.

[Niteowl]

oh yes, as a side note, i'm all for ppl having their faiths and such and living great lives and having peace etc etc etc.

i'd rather be a happy fool than a grumpy old wise man. although, as things happen, i 'm now a grumpy old fool, damn...

[lolfighter]

"I'd rather be lucky than skilled any day of the week."

You're arguing that ignorance is bliss, Niteowl? Couldn't agree more. I knew a guy who had to see the Matrix before he grasped what that saying's about.

[Dubbilex]

We need a philosopher's section.  B)

[Quaunaut]

We need a philosopher's section.  B)

Soon to be added to my boards!

...and now it seems I'm gonna have to pick up the Divinci Code.

[Niteowl]

sorry, my post may seem a bit rude. i by no means am implying that ppl who follow religion are fools. and yes indeedy, ignorance IS bliss. give me my damn soma any day of the damn week.

what i mean to say, is lets say we have a huge phiilosphical debate that actually GOES anywhere (yeah, i know, good luck with that), and lets say religion as a whole is found to be false. well, you've just taken away peace, fellowship, a feeling of belonging, comfort, and all that other good stuff that comes from religion for what? a smug feeling of intellectual rigor?

[BobTheJanitor]

Only if your personal feelings are that comfort is valued over truth. I'd rather know the truth and be unhappy than happily believe a lie.

[Kodiac]

a lot of niteowls info is IN the da vinci code....not saying you got it form there, but it is there. just read it over the weekend while camping with family.  anyway, yeah, this sounds intersting, i know some people who might be interested.

[johnjacobjingle]

i'm gonna have to agree with the janitor above me.

hovever unhappy it will make the world, the truth is better than a lie.  why waste your whole life working for a lie, when you can work for something worthwhile and important in the long run(this is, of course, going back to the assumption that religion as a whole is found to be false).  

if religions proves to be false, wouldn't it be better to spend the time that would otherwise be spent worshipping improving the quality of your time on earth?  

the absense of religion does not mean the absense of peace, fellowship, or a feeling of belonging.  i for one, would argue that of all the things things that caused peace, or continued peace, it would NOT be religion.  religion has been a root cause of conflict in many, many wars throughout history.  Is it not also true, that though there be atheists among the population of the world, they do not suffer from a lack of fellowship or feeling of belonging.  being an atheist myself i'm quite willing to say that one could live without a god and still have all of the above.  

anyway, basically my point is, i don't see that religion is required for people to live a good life, it just is a helpful tool for the lazy to find meaning.(absolutely no offense meant to any of you religious folks out there *grins*)

[Mr.Bill]

*coughs*

spose I need to add something, just because its me

If you've ever watched dogma, youll understand me

Organized religion has its ups and down, down being that you are forced to beleave it, and you cant let your mind run free, like most christians (specially those hardcore bastispts) you only think of god... ONLY GOD. which, is a bad thing, if god had wanted us all to think about him all the damn time, he would of changed the way our minds work, and placement of certain elements in there. But no, he made us the way we are today, either through planned evolution, or just on the spots genetics.

A good thing of religion though, on the opposite side is, it gives us all something to beleave in, which, t many, MANY people, is very important, if we dont beleave in something, then you have nothing to fight for, and if you have nothing to fight for, why bother go on? youll be a lost soul just living day by day not caring what goes on around you, but with the thought of god, it helps give us hope, hope that if were good, we will go to heaven and if were bad were going to hell. which also alters how we do things in life.  But the major flaw of the entire thing is, it is a beleif, people die and kill for those. If you just have an idea, of god, not a beleif but idea... well its all the mre better, because youll be willing to listen and try to listen to others ideas of their gods and such.

sorry for bad typing, and if it looks like I just jumped from thing to thing... cause I did. I dont even know if its on topic

[Satiagraha]

Perhaps it should be viewed from the exterior. I believe that we live to be happy, if that is through a lie, what difference does it make? To you, your "lie" is the truth, as true to you as everything that you have ever learned.  You go through life happy.  Of course I suppose this is based on the fundamental belief that the point of life is to live and be merry.  I could see this complying with bob's point of view as well. If knowing the universal truth gives makes you happy, then your search for that is all-important.
All in all, I fail to see how whether "knowing the truth" or not makes any difference at all in the end, as long as you are happy.

[BobTheJanitor]

The interesting irony here is that I am a Christian, and I got there by following those exact principles. I decided I would rather have truth over a happy lie, and the more I researched, the more truth I found in Christianity. So it worked out for me. I'm not usually inclined to bring it up on forums, because I've found that arguing religion over the internet won't change anyone's point of view and makes more flamewars than it makes friends. Although I think Quaun's forums, as a place where like minded people can get together and discuss their common beliefs, is a fine idea.