Author Topic: The Truth About Upgrades  (Read 6060 times)

April 21, 2004, 02:59:45 AM
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SaltzBad

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The concept of upgrading

An upgrade is an item researched in the arms lab (this little rant will not touch non-arms lab upgrades, which cannot be quantified as easily) - it takes effect after its research time (60/90/120) has expired. The price for any upgrade is paid at the start of research.

The upgrade types

Damage upgrades :
Add 10% damage to any weapon used, excluding welder and knife. Does include hand grenades and mines. Does not include turrets of any type, siege or sentry.

Armor upgrades :
Adds 20 armor (45/65/85) to the starting and maximum armor values of a marine. Can be updated in the field, but the marine will retain his relative amount of armor (meaning a marine with 5% armor will still have 5% of his maximum armor).

Catalyst packs :
Are considered a level 1 upgrade for research times and costs. Cost an additional 4 res per drop in the field. Their effect is to enhance the speed of any action a marine performs - welding, building, running, shooting. With the exception (!) of reloading.

The logic of the "must upgrade" doctrine

To just put myself into the position of the devils advocate for a moment, let me explain the thought process found behind common consensus among most players. It is said that upgrades are effectively very cheap, because the cost is a medium-sized one-time fee exclusively and after that comes free on every respawn.

It is said hence if marines respawn 80 times with an upgrade that cost 40 ressources, they've paid a mere 0.5 ressources per spawn - or in other words, gotten an advantage very cheap.

What then, is wrong with this?

Its amusing really, to say the least, to see a whole slew of otherwise likely intelligent people make a mistake you commonly see in elementary schools, while solving word problems. To answer the entirely wrong question - nobody asked how cheap an upgrade can become in an infinite game, but how cost-efficient it actually is taking every conceivable factor into account.

To make it a bit easier to see, lets look at the efficiency of a weapons3 rush. You begin upgrading Weapons 1 at 1:30 (You've researched Armor1 before, because you're not a complete moron). Weapons 2 at 2:30, Weapons 3 at 4:00 and have completed your research at 6:00. You've spent 90 ressources on these upgrades, including a major chunk of spending at the most critical time, 4:00.

An average game will last another 6 minutes, and its probably fair to say your team averages ~5 deaths/minute. So out of weapons 3 alone, you paid ~1.3 ressources per spawn. This is not counting that upgrading to weapons 3 likely gave you no tangible advantage that late in the game. This might not seem like too much, but bear in mind these are optimistic calculations for upgraders - and already we've got a 250% increase in actual cost of upgrades over what common consensus would like to tell us.

Is that all?

Oh no. The fun has just started. Now we've settled that games are not infinite, and even if this were a game of boring statistics upgrades would not be the end all of commanding. The actual counter-incentives to getting upgrades are yet to come.

Time of spending

We all know starting ressources are not unlimited - and the start of the game comes with alot of time-intensive researching options (AA, MT), ressource-hungry expansion and the necessity for infrastructure (IPs, Armslab, Observatory or even turrets [Haha, just kidding.]).

So as a necessary evil, I for example cannot afford to deny aliens restowers better with 2 shotguns, because armor1 is fairly mandatory for my marines. Doesn't seem too harsh so far. But lets assume you've got Armor1 and Weapons1, the most attractive upgrades as far as cost/research times go - and want to upgrade to Weapons2. Those 3 ressources spread amongst an optimistic 5 RTs took 30 seconds to get - this might not seem like much, but at this point it is 20% of the game. Upgrading now can put off for example a PG network, an advanced armory or 3 shotguns - all for receiving the upgrade precisely at the 4 minute mark.

This is again a common mistake. A light machinegun does not give a damn that its upgrading, it will only deal the damage of its current level. Hence marines are still fighting the games deciding battles with W1/A1, and finally fighting Fades with level 2 LMGs while you upgrade to L3 weapons. They could on the other hand be using W1/A1 Shotguns from 2:30 on and not just owning up the early game but barely noticing the lack of an extra 1.7 pellet damage. Which leads us to our next point.

What effect they really have

Not enough people are currently aware that while in theory, adding 20% more damage to all my marines would make them 20% more effective, that isn't close to true. The effectiveness lies solely in the way damage is dealt, not in the height of the damage - an LMG retains its CQB weaknesses at level 0 and level 3, and a Shotgun has its tremendous contact damage at level 0 or 3.

Moreover, the majority of non-structural targets that you will end up fighting in a match of Natural Selection tend to be Skulks. A damage upgrade does not help connect bullets with a Skulk, it just lowers the required amount by up to 2. Here a table taken from the nonoobs.com damage calculator, on how many bullets it takes to kill a Skulk :

Level 0 LMG - 9 - 10 - 10
Level 1 LMG - 9 - 9 - 10
Level 2 LMG - 8 - 8 - 9
Level 3 LMG - 7 - 8 - 8


The additional numbers are the bullets required for multiple-hive Skulks. Nevermind that you might as well throw your LMG in the trash in that case, because they'll be leaping, Xenoing and using Celerity, but its still nice to know. More importantly, notice how Weapons 1 has no effect to talk of on Skulk vs Marine encounters. In other words, its exclusively a prerequisite.

A bit simpler now, the effect of armor, in Skulkbites required to kill a marine and his leftover HP before the fatal bite.

Level 0 - 2 (75 HP)
Level 1 - 3 (40 HP)
Level 2 - 4 (5 HP)
Level 3 - 4 (44HP [32HP 6AP])

The case here is a bit different than with Weapons, where upgrading below 2 is distinctly unattractive unless you're using shotguns or better. Armor1 is definitely the most attractive upgrade - leaving your marine with his fair share of hitpoints after being bitten twice. Upgrading beyond that becomes a bit cumbersome - Armor2 in competitive play with friendlyfire will seem a dubios advantage, seeing as how you survive the additional bite with a mere 5 hitpoints. Going all the way to Armor3 not just takes the majority of the game, but costs a chunk.

With that in mind, making a decision in favor of upgrades becomes alot harder to justify. Yes, all your marines will have a slight statistical bonus 2 minutes later if you upgrade to weapons 3 - the alternative being to hand out a squad of 4 shotguns, research motion tracking, advanced armory or any other of these options at the deciding point of the game.

We just have to face it after a while, that the goal here is not to plan for drawn out turtling matches in which you'll be able to cost-efficiently exploit your upgrades. The objective is primarily to kill alien hives, and secondarily ressource nozzles, chambers and aliens themselves - and upgrading does not go very far to aiding that objective. Prioritizing it will even hinder that, and hence lead to mostly turtling matches - which in turn, re-assures the user of todays common consensus that his strategy paid off, when in fact it was his downfall.

Good game. :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 03:00:23 AM by SaltzBad »

April 21, 2004, 04:44:58 AM
Reply #1

Sancho

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Well after seeing the marines take down an onos and fade today when you tried lvl 0 weapons, I totally understand what you're getting at.  But what about that second fade that was alive for the whole entire game?  I totally agree that weapon upgrades are a waste of time and res, but when you're going up against some really good fades, that extra 10/20% boost may be just enough to kill them.  Or alternatively, the hive may be taken down 10/20% faster by an lmg rush, which is really risky to begin with.

Really, what it comes down to, is how much its really worth to a comm, because the more upgrades one gets, the less cost effective it gets.  Personally, I think an extra 10% for 20 res, or even 30 res is worth it, considering the number of times you see a fade or onos in the red.

Though, I do believe that a point needs to be made to all the people that say "OLO lvl 0 weapons gg nub comm"  Weapon upgrades don't really make that big of a difference.

April 21, 2004, 05:35:04 AM
Reply #2

SaltzBad

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The point to be made is, that with research times and all that upgrades should always have the backseat to pretty much anything (beyond the mandatory A1). The Fade may get away after blinking in from a bunch of L1 shotguns, but he'll just kill the entire group in the case of L2 LMGs - or more realisticly speaking, L1 LMGs upgrading to 2 still.

And that their effectiveness is heavily overrated - the 3 extra damage points still make it an LMG, and its less effective than a lowlevel shotgun at killing, because it requires tracking instead of instant damage (even perfect tracking allows the target the chance to escape). Plus the other advantages of the SG, like structure damage.

Or a similiar example would be to either upgrade to L2 weapons or hand out 2 HMGs because the aliens are Skulk-leaping in masses. Level 2 weapons again comes with the delay, and upgrades every LMG by one point of damage - HMGs on the other hand come with 2.5 times the clipsize, and dealing twice the damage per hit. And all that instantly - and considering its your success in the field that wins a game, not the success turtling a base after 10 minutes (which upgrades would definitely rule at), its safe to say "When in doubt, drop a gun" ;)

And yeah, what sparked this was just the usual 'ogm cornmandor get us upgraeeeds!!!!11'.

Edit :
And yeah, I agree on lowlevel upgrades - they're the best. Low research time, low cost and in the case of A1 the highest effectiveness.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 05:41:05 AM by SaltzBad »

April 21, 2004, 08:03:40 AM
Reply #3

rad4Christ

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Saltz........ It's just a game.

Well, since you've delved into all of this, Ill say that I agree that upgrades aren't completely crucial, but a great help. I generally have the problem of forgetting to upgrade them, and my marines still do decently. But, math aside, I do notice marines lasting longer and doing better when they do have upgrades, maybe it's the mindset that they are strong, thus playing more aggresively, or if the upgrade is actually causing that much of a difference.

Before you strike them down b/c the factual implications of upgrades, look at what they obtain psychologically. I know when I am in a game, or especially join a late game, and I see full upgrades, I feel I can handle aliens easily.

Another note is it a way barometer most players have come to use to tell how well their team is doing. Little upgrades, little expansion/newb comm. Full Upgrades, we're winning.

Personally, I really see no need for a proto. Or an upgraded armory. So many games I only get it to hurry the win, not because it is needed. A LVL3 shotty can take down anything IMO, and LVL 3 armored LA's fair very well. Why waste 70 res on adv armory and proto, and another 35-40 on JP/HA, when I can continue to lvl up and drop shotties.

Why do I still do it most of the time? B/c the marines enjoy their toys   :D .
« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 08:05:27 AM by [mmi]rad4Christ »
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April 21, 2004, 10:22:59 AM
Reply #4

Niteowl

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what your upgrading math doesn't take into account is concentrated fire, or group conflicts. i suspect that upgraded marines against upgraded skulks fair much much better than the math would indicate.
"I don't have to know an answer, I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me."
-Richard Feynman

April 21, 2004, 03:35:52 PM
Reply #5

SaltzBad

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Quote
rad4Christ,Apr 21 2004, 08:03 AM] Saltz........ It's just a game.
 
Look at the posting time. Its just a game that I can't play, because its 4AM. :p

And light armor only works well if you've kept the upper hand on the offense - then there truely is little reason except for safety to get HA tech. On the other hand if you didn't, you'll be facing a whole host of issues that LAs cannot solve - higher lifeforms, 2nd hive abilities, offense chambers, sporeclouds and leaping Skulks making clean kills alot rarer.

The only time I've seen LAs have any reasonable success against 2 Hives is when the aliens simply weren't there - like the game on nancy, where 2 on our team were afk, and our lerk (Tombomb) was literally staring at the ceiling instead of saving the hive in a breeze with umbra. Or any other game where the alien team is simply to complacent to react in time.

In other words, an early HA can react to a early 2nd hive or other things you failed to deny in the early game, instead of simply having to eat the loss.

And again, nobody denys that upgrades are a small advantage - but is a small advantage worth the large price and research times, in a game where early ressources are so vital? :o
« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 03:40:46 PM by SaltzBad »

April 22, 2004, 03:44:59 AM
Reply #6

Sancho

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sort of on-topic:  I just had a thought today, what about getting ->A1->A2 immediately before anything else?  Seems like a pretty good way to stomp skulks early, increasing the bites to 3 and then 4 within the first few minutes.  Why is it that people insist on A1->W1->W2->W3?

April 22, 2004, 05:26:38 AM
Reply #7

SaltzBad

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The problem with going to A2 is it'll be finished around 3 minutes (without W1) - not that much time left to stomp Skulks with. And in competition and/or FF servers, its 2 strays rounds to make it a 3-bite kill again :/

I used to try it, and the effect wasn't exactly overwhelming. Nifty, but not overwhelming. But then the same argument goes for going W2 - its not that great either.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2004, 05:31:58 AM by SaltzBad »

April 22, 2004, 09:49:05 AM
Reply #8

Niteowl

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a1-w1-w2-a2 is usually a winning combination for me. and by winning i mean asthetically pleasing to my upgrading eye, not to actually winning any games.
"I don't have to know an answer, I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me."
-Richard Feynman