Author Topic: 3.0 Balance Ideas And Suggestions  (Read 11341 times)

February 18, 2004, 09:14:32 AM
Reply #20

Niteowl

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good god,i know it's buggy, but the 1.04 blink just was the coolest thing.. ever.

some things i'd like to see
-a better JP counter, at least in Combat, the OC spam seems to work pretty well in classic
-faster blink and leap
-make turrets able to hold their own for longer than 5 seconds. i know,i know, you should rines there, but if i have the rez, but i don't have the rines following orders, i should be able to splurge for EFFECTIVE static defence no?
-some sort of effect like CommGhost so that the rines know where the comm is looking
"I don't have to know an answer, I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me."
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February 18, 2004, 09:48:07 AM
Reply #21

BobTheJanitor

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I have a copy of 1.0 that I whip out to play with blink every once in a while. It always either does nothing, or else I blink and get stuck in a wall. But it was still a cool idea. I think I actually have the original 1.0, so probably if I got the 1.04 patch it might work a wee bit better.

Anyway, we're getting away from balance changes and into suggestions. Remember, we'll have a much better chance with suggestions like 'increase gorge armor by ten points for balance' than 'fade needs completely new blink'. So with that in mind, what balance changes can we suggest, based on our extensive 3.0 playing?

So far I've got 'double acid rocket RoF' and that's about it.

Eedite: Speelinng
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 09:48:42 AM by BobTheJanitor »

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February 18, 2004, 10:41:02 AM
Reply #22

rad4Christ

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I've "gathered" any/all ideas I've posted on the NS boards that were pertinent to this thread, some balance, some enhancement (I promise nothing too stupid/wild), and placed them below:

Topic One: Build Radius

Summary:
I think current marine building radius is a little too high, not much, but maybe needs to decreased a small amount. I really think the radius should just be removed for turrets. That's the biggest trouble. .

Example:
On Caged, if you place one turret in the back by the CC, it can take up the entire side of the CC build area.

Topic Two: Different Upgrade Path, Multiple Chambers Per Hive (Conditional) (Just to test)

Summary:
Allowing multiple chambers, which have the same effect as they do now (use movement to hive, cloaking sensories, healing defense), but limiting upgrades to number of hives (i.e. one hive = one upgrade from one chamber ONLY, such as if defensive upgrade used, cannot get sens or movement upgrade until 2nd hive). This will give much diversity, and allow for interesting packs of aliens. Yes, the marines will need to be more aware, but the res cost to do such a thing prohibits this from being overpowering. Let's say the aliens want to have Lvl 2 of all three chambers at start, so those who choose each chamber get one lvl 2 upgrade. That's 60 res. Plus the initial ten to gorge for each player. Have the remaining players drop nodes and that depletes your starting res pool, i.e. no higher lifeforms for a while and/or no hive for a longer period fo time. Therefore, for building more chambers in early game, you are still sacrificing majorly, and depending on more nodes to survive.

Example:
The Pros:
Early Game: you can cloak key choke points, have DC's healing, and have a MC at hive in case of attack. Gorges also have the ability to drop a MC quickly if starting hive under attack.
Mid Game: If an alien team chose not to build extra chambers to start, but instead focused on map control, they would have the ability to drop multiple chambers quickly and "tech up" much faster. This will help out by allowing aliens to push on marines strongly in mid game, making a hive two alien somewhat of a match to a lvl 2 marine by keeping him guessing on what upgrades aliens are using.
Late Game: In late game, by not locking a chamber to a hive, should the marines take hive location(s), the aliens can still have the diversity of dropping different chambers to build/use. Since the marines are fully teched, this should not be an overwhelming advantage, it should only level the playing field slightly if the marines are not effectively moving forward.

The Cons:
Early Game: You can have any chamber you want from game start, but building enough to make an upgrade useful will consume a good bit of res, especially if you choose to drop all three. And since you are spending so much on the chambers, you will not have much res for OC's or other defense. Also ever res spent takes away from res for nodes, higher lifeforms, and hives. Remember, to gorge and drop three of a certain chamber would cost 40 res. To drop thre of all chambers just for the aliens to have a choice would run you 120 res starting... That's 8 res nodes, or 3 hives...
Mid Game: If the alien team did NOT effectively keep control of the map, the poorly guarded structures in the field will be destroyed, and res flow will be very low, basically being wasted on chambers that have been destroyed or chambers that aliens do not have the resources to upgrade.
Late Game: Currently, if you HAD three hives and are down to one, you can choose all three upgrade chambers. If you attached amount of upgrades available to amount of hives, you can choose only one upgrade, limiting your power. Although you still have the ability to build sensory, movement, and/or defense, the lack of upgrades hinders ability (Disclaimer: I think any alien who had multiple upgrades at the time a hive went down, should keep all upgrades until he/she died).

In conclusion:
An alien team using this early game sacrifices res for higher lifeforms/earlier hives, and mid to late game gives slight offensive advantage and reward for map control. It seems to me when the aliens are defeated to one hive, the game lends to a quick end, due to the heavy limitations of the alien tech. However, marines can turtle until they can sufficiently attack. Allowing multiple chambers may give the aliens a better chance of returning, one of the things 1.04 made extremely satisfying.

Topic Three: Squad Commander

Summary:
The idea is to be able to select marines, then right click on a single marine, creating a small WP above his head signifying squad leader. This guy has no abilities above a normal marine, but the other marines know to stick with this guy. Then give individual WP's to the squad leader, showing on fellow marine HUD's if you'd like, but once the squad leader reaches it, it disappears (no more lingering WPs because the entire squad didn't make it).

I think this would allow those less familiar with maps and/or play style to follow and veteran player. This will also keep individual willed-people in the same group from fighting over authority. You know, where one wants to move on and another wants to hold location. The commander chooses the squad's leader, and if he turns out to be a poor one, it falls on the commanders shoulders.

This would be ultra simplistic to add to 3.0, give the expected influx of new players some added guidance, and allow the commander to rely on key marines to get the infantry where it's needed.

Clarifications:
1. This isn't a promotion in any sense of upgrades and advancement, it is instead a mobile waypoint instead of a static one. It in no way gives the marine "leader" any advantages over his teammates..
2. The current Guard soldier WP is buggy at best, and the marine with the WP on his head has obscured vision when he moves faster than the WP, and it's so big, it blocks any marine that gets near him's line of sight. We need a practical, efficient WP that's not too large.
3. If the squad "leader" dies, the rest of the team could still have the static waypoint for reference. Or, depending on how much Flayra wants to implement this, even an audible message for the commander, "Squad leader down", to signify for him to come to the squad's aid (if he's focused elsewhere).

Example:
We are recruiting many new players to NS due to 3.0. Most of these new guys really want to follow orders, but they don't know the maps, main chokepoints, favorite alien hiding spots, etc. Last night on veil, for instance, I asked the marines to go to a waypoint, some just took off running for it, some went the long route, and some grouped up and moved out. Only two made it. Some people have yet to truly learn how to properly move in groups.
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February 18, 2004, 11:34:22 AM
Reply #23

Ulatoh

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This post is addressed to Gem, and Isamil, concerning the fade:


     The problem with the fade is the foreward hitbox of the swipe claws.  If the hitbox were more fan-shaped, allowing for less-precise aming of the claws, we would have our stealthy killer.  
     In the Techtrope, you see the fade described as appearing out of nowhere, attacking, and fleeing.  I think that, perhaps a better alternative to the blink skill as it is now would be a kind of triggerable redemption that worked both ways.

     Lets say that the fade is within radius X of a group of marines, (this radius would be comparable to the siege range of siege turrets)  perhaps a kind of hivesight alerts them to this, and they can then trigger their "blink", teleporting them into the room with the marines.  The fade teleports in silently, and cloaked, and then attacks, with a weaker attack, i propose it take 4 swipes to kill a marine.  When the fade is low on health, or simply feels the need to skedadle, he uses his blink ability again, which transports him back to the hive, essentially a triggerable redemption.

     Under the current hive-to-upgrade hierarchy, i propose this be a tier 4 ability.  Allso, since fades are purely stealth, most of their health and armor would be taken away, and they would have silence by default.

     I've thought of this in much more detail, making accomodations for all occurrences i can think of, but i wont waste space if noone is interested. Let me know if you are, and I will elaborate.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 11:39:54 AM by Ulatoh »
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February 18, 2004, 12:58:14 PM
Reply #24

BobTheJanitor

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I do think swipe's area of attack could be increased more so that it wouldn't act like a very short range gun. Devour also. What I would like to see with devour is either a huge cone of fire right at the onos's face, or else an actual crosshair of some sort. Right now, it acts like its got a crosshair, but we're not given one to help with aiming. And while the pointy horn of gore points to right where your attack will fire, the crooked horn of devour is only confusing. Put a mouth shaped crosshair around the middle of the screen, like two stylized rows of onos teeth, to show where the attack will fire at.

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February 18, 2004, 03:06:04 PM
Reply #25

a civilian

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So far I've got 'double acid rocket RoF' and that's about it.
I say do the opposite.  Decrease the acid rocket's rate of fire while increasing its damage and energy cost so that it will be usable in conjunction with other abilities.  The current acid rocket simply cannot be used in conjunction with other abilities.  With its extremely low damage but high rate of fire, it must be spammed to be effective.  And it really isn't fun to just stand somewhere and hold the attack key.  It also does not seem realistic that the Fade could metabolize so many of those large balls of acid.

February 18, 2004, 03:22:54 PM
Reply #26

BobTheJanitor

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Ah but then we'd be right back to what the acid rocket was before it was changed. Which, honestly, was just fine with me. Useful for base busting, especially with a couple fades doing it. And useful for flinging down a hall to smash armor before you blink in for the kill. Either way would be fine honestly. If it's put back to previous levels, or if the current RoF is doubled, the end effect would be the same: being able to deal 50 damage per second. Right now you can deal 25 damage per second, less than the gorge. (Spit RoF is 1.25 per second  :blink: )

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there are a lot of aaaa...mmmmm.... "HAPPY" pirates on this ship. -GrayDuck

February 18, 2004, 03:49:56 PM
Reply #27

a civilian

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Either way would be fine honestly.
I don't agree.  The acid rocket would in my view be far more useful and fun to use if it could be used in conjunction with other abilities.

Quote
Right now you can deal 25 damage per second, less than the gorge. (Spit RoF is 1.25 per second  :blink: )
The times found in Balance.txt are not measured in seconds.  They are instead measured in units of time that appear to be slightly shorter than half-seconds.  That is not to say that that comparison is invalid, however; I just thought I should mention this.

February 18, 2004, 04:17:00 PM
Reply #28

Isamil

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Ulatoh:
I think the fade could use a small increase in its cone of fire, but I don't really like your idea.  Its to cheap and it would be rather buggy.  Say there are 2 groups of marines around, how does it choose which one?  Blink as it works is fine, perhaps it needs a small speed boost, but other then that its preaty good.

February 18, 2004, 10:53:39 PM
Reply #29

BobTheJanitor

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The times found in Balance.txt are not measured in seconds.  They are instead measured in units of time that appear to be slightly shorter than half-seconds.  That is not to say that that comparison is invalid, however; I just thought I should mention this.
Actually, I'm going by the beta manual, which is probably not entirely correct. It does feel faster than a second in game, but I can also feel the difference between AR and spit, and spit just feels faster. If I could fire off four of the current rockets in a couple seconds and blink in for a kill, fine. If I can fire two 50 dmg rockets in the same time and blink in for a kill, also fine. What I don't want is the current useless rocket. BLAH!

Lunixmonster: Banning the NS community one smacktard at a time. -lolfighter
there are a lot of aaaa...mmmmm.... "HAPPY" pirates on this ship. -GrayDuck

February 18, 2004, 11:05:17 PM
Reply #30

a civilian

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Quote
The times found in Balance.txt are not measured in seconds.  They are instead measured in units of time that appear to be slightly shorter than half-seconds.  That is not to say that that comparison is invalid, however; I just thought I should mention this.
Actually, I'm going by the beta manual, which is probably not entirely correct.
From what I have seen, the beta manual uses the exact same values as can be found in Balance.txt.

Quote
It does feel faster than a second in game, but I can also feel the difference between AR and spit, and spit just feels faster. If I could fire off four of the current rockets in a couple seconds and blink in for a kill, fine. If I can fire two 50 dmg rockets in the same time and blink in for a kill, also fine. What I don't want is the current useless rocket. BLAH!
I tested the rates of fire of most weapons sometime back in 2.0 or 2.01, and assuming they have not been changed (and it does not seem that they were) the acid rocket attacks approximately every .5 seconds and the Gorge spit attacks approximately every .42 seconds.

[edit]
I have been attempting to determine the number by which a time found in Balance.txt can be multiplied in order to convert its unit of measurement to seconds.   I have arrived, unfortunately, at many different numbers:
.5
.513
.517
.521
.524
.526
.556
.625
.629
.667

I also found that any time that is not the rate of fire of a weapon or ability is measured in seconds.
[/edit]
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 12:06:40 AM by a civilian »

February 19, 2004, 02:27:52 AM
Reply #31

Venmoch

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Something I'd like to see?

A change in the Combat Respawn System. (Yes Combat) Currently three aliens spawn for one marine. Fine in theory but when the conflict ends up on the marines home front it is quite possible for the aliens to completely rape the marines as more than 3 skulks can happilly chew the CC and kill the lone marine that spawns. Repeat until you have one marine spawning every wave and the rest of the team in the queue. While the aliens are constantly gaining EXP and becoming even more larger lifeforms (Read Tanks) That the low level marines cannot handle.

While it sounds good in theory it just makes marines coming back from a massed attack on the home front impossible. And of course by the time the alien team is fully alive again the marine team is only at half strength. Its a constant loose for the marines and it only requires a little co-operation on the alien. Whereas a marine assault is always more difficult and its just harder to take down a hive when three aliens spawn right next to you.

FIX THIS!

February 19, 2004, 06:56:35 AM
Reply #32

BobTheJanitor

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Civ: That's cool, I'd really love to be able to get access to more specific hard numbers about everything in ns. Damage numbers, health number, those are easy enough to find, but rate of fire numbers, rate of regeneration number, speed of welding armor numbers, etc. etc. are all pretty difficult to come by.

Venmoch: The current co spawn spawns 25% of the team at a time, rounded down. It's the same for aliens and marines, so unless you've been playing 12 vs 4 games, you shouldn't be seeing that kind of spawning. The current system really encourages spawn camping, and just pisses a lot of people off. I'd much rather see a 2 person minimum spawn, to keep this from happening, and a return to a 1/2 second or 1 second invulnerability period. Spawn invuln in combat was removed after beta 1 for reasons unknown (probably that they're trying to speed up combat) and since then has only led to more and more spawn camping aggravation.

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February 19, 2004, 08:59:18 AM
Reply #33

Lito

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a much larger incentive for marines to gtfo out spawn in combat.

Sure, you could shoot the hive, get moderate experience, and work towards the end of the game, but that is not nearly as fast as camp spawn gain tons of xp while you pick the skulks off as they come in, and then tech to jps.

Solution? Take the jp and a baseball bat and whack out most of the usefulness of it.

This could mean: much slower fuel regeneration, faster fuel consumption, -1/4 fuel capacity.

Sure its still semi-useful, but you can't just keep dodging hits anymore.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 09:03:49 AM by Lito »
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February 19, 2004, 09:30:14 AM
Reply #34

Niteowl

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what to ppl feel is really broke in the game? i hear talk about fade and such.. but what are the issues that need to be addressed?

the lack of uberness of 3 hives (altho i've seen games where the rines control all themap and are just startgin to take down one of the 3 hives, should theynot be able to do so without alot of tech?), the no counter for jp, what? what makes the game really 'broke'? in your opinion.
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February 19, 2004, 12:00:46 PM
Reply #35

Uranium - 235

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Balance weapons.

First part, ripped straight out of someone's post, and I like it.

Quote
First i would like to say i am NOT suggesting new ammo types. Those ammo types would require another weapon slot, so no, i wont be suggesting that. Down to business...

The marines would have 4 damage types tied to their weapons - Light, Medium, Heavy, and Explosive. The aliens would have 3 armor types - Skulk armor, Fade armor, and Onos armor.

Obviously, Fade and Onos armor can only really apply to those evolutions, while Skulk armor applies to Skulks, Gorges, and Lerks. Each MARINE weapon (NOT alien weapons!) would be tied to one of the above damage types, and can have only one. How the marine weapon's attacks breaks down like this:

Knife - Medium
Pistol - Medium
LMG - Medium
Shotgun - Light
HMG - Heavy
Grenade Launcher - Explosive
Hand Grenade - Explosive
Mine - Explosive
Welder - Explosive (It could be thought as such since it has heat...)

Now, a chart explaining things:

Armor | Attack | Effectiveness
Skulk | Light | 100%
Fade | Light | 75%
Onos | Light | 50%
Building | Light | 50%
----
Skulk | Medium | 100%
Fade | Medium | 100%
Onos | Medium | 100%
Building | Medium | 100%
----
Skulk | Heavy | 25%
Fade | Heavy | 50%
Onos | Heavy | 100%
Building | Heavy | 75%
----
Skulk | Explosive | 25%
Fade | Explosive | 50%
Onos | Explosive | 75%
Building | Explosive | 200%


So, from these charts you can EASILLY see that a shotgun (light damage) shooting a onos (onos armor) isn't effective (50% damage per hit), while shooting it with a HMG (Heavy damage - 100% damage per hit on Onos armor) is. You'll also note that Explosives arn't that good against any armor type but buildings, because that's where explosives belong -- depsite the player's use of them. If mines no longer kills skulks because of this, incease the mine damage until it does kill a un-upgraded skulk (A skulk w/ carapace should survive a mine explosion - those plates are there for a reason, you know!)

It'd also give more flexability in ballancing the marine weapons, because now you have instead of 1 or 2 damage types you have 4 to work with and tweak. All the numbers here are just a rough estimate to give you a idea of how effective they should be.

These damage types knock weapons into their proper places once and for all, despite the player's use of them. I dont know wether or not these %'s should be placed before or after armor-damage calculations, but i think once damage is done to armor and is about to go to health it should take effect (so damage flow chart would look like "damage done to armor -> damage type/evolutionary armor comparison + calculation -> damage done to health")
//You can stop reading here if you want. Continue if you want examples of how it'd play out.

Shotguns would no longer own the onos, because the onos has such a large surface area of armor but shred smaller lifeforms - LMG/Knives/Pistols remain just as effective now throughout game - HMGs dont tear apart the smaller evolutions as bad but love to smack the onos down (you'll encounter more then 1 HMG for sure, so it's at 100% damage for that reason) - Explosives will destroy completely any WoL, but fail to kill a tricky Lerk.

It'd also force commanders to put down different weapons. Some would retain their LMGs for over-all combat ability + good hits against fades, HMGs for anti-onos, shotguns for anti-small aliens, and a GL or two to knock down speed bump WoLs; more strategy, imo, especially when combined with JPs and HA.

[NOTES:
O Eggs would have skulk armor
O Electricity would do Medium type damage
O Turrets would do Light type damage
O Seiges would do explosive type damage (despite not using explosives, it *explodes* the building it targets, hence explosive damage type)
O Alien attacks would stay the same (It's the marine's weapons that need bumping back into their places, not the aliens'! )
O Alien armor would function just as well as it does now - it's the HP damage that's reduced after armor damage is calculated.]

====
Well, go on. Post now.

Second part, ripped out of my posts. From 2.01 so the issues are a little out of date, but the idea is still the same.

Quote
So I'm in another thread typing out why I think Level 3 upgrades for marines are vastly overpowered... when I realized something: Marine Tech seems to 'jump' instead of 'ooze' like the aliens do, and it's got a very very poor mix of overpowered / underpowered parts to it.


Anyway, this is just a rant I've had since 2.0. Feels good to get it out.


For the aliens, their tech system is very fluid. When a hive goes up, it benefits all lifeforms in various ways, some more then others. When upgrade chambers are built, it'll give different abilities. There's actually 5 'pieces' to the alien tech tree:

1) Hives
2) Lifeforms
3) Defense Chambers
4) Movement Chambers
5) Sensory Chambers

There's really no set way to use the alien tech. It'll come at various times, sort of in 'upgrade waves', or it'll trickle in. The hive may go up, but no chambers may be dropped for another two or three minutes.


The marine tech, here, the flawed one, has 7 'pieces' to their upgrades.

1) Weapon Upgrades
2) Armor Upgrades
3) Adv. Weapon Tech
4) Adv. Equipment Tech
5, 6, 7) Misc. Upgrades (This counts as 3 as there are lots of important and powerful parts to this: Siege Cannons, Phase Gates, Motion Tracking)


Now here's the problem: Level 3 weapon and armor upgrades should be roughly equivilent to two types of level 3 chambers. Because the marine tech tree is much larger, in practice, they should actually be less. However, level 3, even level 2 upgrades are too powerful. Many games end with the marines just having Weapon, Armor upgrades, and perhaps a couple of the 'Misc' upgrades.

One part of the equation almost never enters: The Adv. Weapon Tech and Adv. Equipment Tech. When they do enter, it's almost ALWAYS when they're together, and it's almost always (Almost. Comebacks are possible) game over for the aliens.

Now why on earth does the marine tech tree, a larger one, overpower the alien tech tree in nearly every single aspect?

Let's say the top of the tech tree is equal to 1. Each marine 'piece' to their upgrade tree should only count as roughly 0.14 of the tech tree. Each piece of the alien tech tree should be equal to 0.2. Thusly, level 3 weapon upgrades should be slightly inferior to... say, level 3 defense chambers.

Currently, the marine tech tree equates to a total of roughly 1.5 instead, but the higher upgrades are worth about .4, and the lower upgrades are worth peanuts. The result: Aliens have it easy on marines in the beginning, but impossible at the end. The teams may be even, both may be at the top of their tech tree, and the players could be playing skill-clones of themselves, but the odds never look good when marines are at the top of their tree.

So?

The marine tech tree needs to be changed:

1) Weapon upgrades should NOT be a substitute for Adv Weapon Tech. Adv Weapon Tech should be roughly equal to the alien lifeform upgrades: When Item A isn't enough, change to Item B. However, the light machine gun (Key word there LIGHT) is capable of handling every situation on it's own. Only 2 clips at level 0 to kill a level 3 carapaced onos? Please... that's not right.

2) Adv. Weapon Tech shouldn't have the 'OH **** HMGS! SHOTGUNS!' effect it does. It should simply be... a change in how the marine handles the situation. Maybe gorges, or lerks, or fades, (or something) should scream 'OH **** HMGS!', but the ENTIRE TEAM shouldn't have to worry. There should be a HARD COUNTER to them. Instead, the marines get all the hard counters (Cloaking / Sensor Scan, Lerks / HA, etc.) and all the aliens get are soft (very soft. Jell-o soft) counters.

Do HAs worry about lerks?

Do light marines worry about gorges?

Do HAs fear Onos and fades as much as LA?

Do Jetpack marines fear onos and O Chambers?

No, no, no, and no.

So why do Onos, Fade, Skulk, Gorge, and Lerk worry about Light Machine Guns, Grenade Launchers, Shotguns, And HMGs?


A possible way to fix this would be to:

1) Drastically reduce the effectiveness of level 3 upgrades. They should confer a SLIGHT BONUS to the weapon, not turn it into a depleted-uranium-tipped HEAT launcher. They're costly, sure, but keep in mind they're global, and they're permenant. A level 3 LMG shouldn't be a standin for HMGs. I don't think Level 3 armor is as guilty as being overpowered as weapons, ut I think level 1 armor should be equal to what it is now, and slightly reduce vanilla armor values.

2) Slightly decrease the cost of weapons, reduce the time it takes to upgrade the armory, and increase the costs of the 'Misc UPgrades'.

3) Give every gun a special property. Light machine guns, for example, should do less damage to Fades, and just barely scratch an onos. Shotguns should do modest damage to everything, but should do almost no damage to structures. Grenades should do some friendly fire when they explode. Heavy Machine Guns should have much less accuracy then they do now, and should reduce the turning rate of a marine (Considering the poor accuracy is only a problem in... like... Viaduct and massive hallways, and aliens have almost no ranged attacks, it's not much of a drawback, now, is it?). Then lock mouse sensitivity during the game so it can't be boosted when grabbing an HMG.

The result? Instead of super-death-weapons all guns are now at level 3, the guns are suited for a certain ROLE, are cheaper so commanders hand them out more often, and have a HARD COUNTER. HMGs, for example, can't track faster targets. Grenade Launchers aren't wise to use in a crowd.



What else? Well we've slightly solved the problem in marine tech: Instead of upgrades that focus on KILL DEATH DESTROY, they focus on EXPANDING the marine versatility a bit, and change how the handle situations.

However, we need to look at the other side: Hives, and Endgame. Frankly, they're underpowered in a few cases. Leap, for example, isn't too much of a hassle for marines to handle. Even down a modest length corridor, a leaping skulk will only get halfway and be gunned down. It could do with a damage boost, or just a quicker leap in general. Nothing too much. Leap is okay how it is, but could stand to be a bit better and more versatile. Metabolize is hardly worthy of the 50 resource investment and 3 minutes. Xenocide requires a player to DIE, and it won't even take out a light marine at level 3 armor, possibly even level 2. They could do with a bit (Just a tad, and only a few) of beefing up, so a hive is a bit more of a priority for certain stages in the game. Ha.ze suggested that hives bump up the armor and HP of aliens, maybe even give them more powerful attacks, and I agree. (Sorry for saying 'A BIT' everywhere. I know some people's monitors don't show large chunks of reason and logic)

Finally, endgame. An onos might be a counter to a small group of HA marines, but that's a 100 res creature that can STILL die fairly easilly, and takes a long time to acquire. Webs are too late in the game to work. There's really only one solution: Onos, or throw your skulk selves at them and take them down by attrition. But what counters jetpacks? Spores are too ineffective. Spikes are going away. Offense Chambers are loosing their accuracy. I sense problems... already many hives are EASILLY destroyed by jetpackers due to the manuverability greater then a blinking fade on crack, and the capability to carry massive hardware. I think the penalties for weight on a jetpack need to be stiffer. Instead of just more fuel drain, put a  'thrust'  curve on the jetpack, so with heavier weapons, they can only reach a certain height before floating back down to the ground.


Addendum 1

Heavy Armor. Now, you have light armor to start off with. You'll gradually get your armor upgrades up to Light Level 3. Then sooner or later, the commander may drop heavy armor. Now you've gone from minimal protection, slowly increased, then suddenly you've more them DOUBLED your effective armor rating. This is what I'm talking about: The marine tech makes such massive LEAPS it completely overcomes the aliens.

Basically, maybe make the jetpack, and heavy armor, have researches of their own. Heavy Armor has to research it's own levels of armor upgrades, but the cost or time of researching and buying HA is slightly dropped to compensate for the increased time sink. Jetpacks at level 0 provide nothing but a jumping boost upwards. More research allows it to lift more weight, longer, and higher.

Make what you will.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 12:05:03 PM by Uranium - 235 »

February 19, 2004, 12:03:41 PM
Reply #36

BobTheJanitor

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Well, on the three hive issue, my solution would simply be making all third hive abilities that do damage do double damage against structures. (AFTER the AR is fixed back to its previous levels, so that it will be doing 4x the damage it's doing right now vs. structures) This would completely negate annoying marine turtling on one RT. Marines are much weaker without their pretty toys, and three hives implies pretty good map control. If the marines can't even keep you out of one hive and they aren't in the process of taking a hive down by the time you've got the third one up, it really should be difficult for them to come back from that position.

Also, the health of onos could still use a boost. It's supposed to be a game breaker, it ain't. Fades are more useful right now simply because you can fit more than one of them in a room at a time. Onos are BIG, and they get in the way of eachother when trying to take down a turret farmed base full of HMG marines. I really wish they'd break and fix the co vs ns problems. Either allow multiple upgrades per chamber in NS (which is not that terrible, there are many suggested schemes that would allow it without screwing up the game) or admit that the game modes are different and balance health/armor differently for each. I know they lowered the cost of the onos exactly for this reason, because he falls fast. But that's the pinnacle of alien tech. And they're effectively admitting that he's weak by lowering the cost. Aliens have NOTHING better than that. And a hive 3 onos with carapace falls to 114 l3 HMG bullets. That's not even a clip. That's two guys with HMGs firing for a second or two. Three guys, the onos won't even get his head in the door. HOW CAN YOU TAKE DOWN A BASE LIKE THAT? Chamber support is nice, until the marines build one siege cannon and your healing station becomes a magnet for nuclear blasts.

Aliens can eventually win, but in situations like this, which are seen all too often, it just takes too long to be fun anymore. Marine end games work out quite fast. They charge in, they smash, they win. And with the good old ping of death, the aliens can't ninja another hive up unless they happen to be right there and the marines are quite stupid. Marines, when cornered in one area, can still fight on and on and on and even have the chance of sneaking one guy out to build another CC and IPs somewhere. This never wins the game, but it does make it even LOOONGER.

So. Imagine acid rocket doing 100 damage a shot to buildings, or focus doing 400 damage to buildings. Clear out those turret farms real fast, instead of waiting around eternally while the marines respawn and gl spam ad nauseum.

And charge. Charge, simply, sucks. It serves no useful purpose, except for running into MS to devour one guy and running away. Hit and run is NOT the role of the onos. He's supposed to be a tank. He shouldn't have to run through MS in two seconds or less to survive. Charge should either do enough damage to buildings to practically instagib turrets on contact, or it should be replaced by a totally new ability. Put the onos back at 100 res and make him more useful, the 3.0 onos in all betas has been a poor excuse for an onos. Should be renamed to an oh-blah, or an oh-who-cares.

JP has a counter, it's OC spam. JPs are a problem in combat, but as people may have noticed, I don't give a flying @$%*! about combat until NS is perfect.

Well, I said this thread was for venting. Let's get some more venting, agree on some main points so we can send this off before it's too late to make any difference. (which we can only hope it may)

Lunixmonster: Banning the NS community one smacktard at a time. -lolfighter
there are a lot of aaaa...mmmmm.... "HAPPY" pirates on this ship. -GrayDuck

February 19, 2004, 05:52:53 PM
Reply #37

Geminosity

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to be honest I pretty much agree with the way you 2 (bob and U235) are headed, though of course one of the reasons the fade is more useful isn't just their size; it's their cost to health/size ratio.  For what you pay the fade is a real tank compared to onos... I've not done the numbers but I still feel the aliens are becoming less diverse and more similar.  It's kinda like the aliens are slowly beginning their fall into the marine trap U235 was talking about where all the 'weapons' (in this case evolutions) are pretty much the same in the DIE! DIE! DIE category =/

With the inclusion of CO the new changes seem less RTS-inspired (each unit having it's own role) and more FPS related (MORE WEAPONS!!! MORE POWAR!!! GIMME TEH BFG!!!) :p

gah... I'm still off the mark amn't I? lol

February 19, 2004, 08:45:42 PM
Reply #38

Grimm

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There's no point in discussing the 'balance' of 3.0, its not like anyone is going to take this into consideration. The only thing we can do is have fun with 2.01 or play other games.

February 19, 2004, 10:31:06 PM
Reply #39

BobTheJanitor

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Le sigh. Grimm is probably right... This was my last ditch effort before giving up and admitting that the devs are a bunch of ivory tower smacktards who wouldn't listen to useful input from involved players if they were tied to a chair and had it delivered to them via megaphone.

But hey, MAYBE BETA FOUR WILL FIX EVERYTHING. EH? EH?

Yeah, if you want me, I'll be busy beating a hole in the wall with my head.

Lunixmonster: Banning the NS community one smacktard at a time. -lolfighter
there are a lot of aaaa...mmmmm.... "HAPPY" pirates on this ship. -GrayDuck