Overly Chatty Penguins
The Ready Room => General => Topic started by: BobTheJanitor on February 17, 2004, 02:25:02 PM
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This may be workable and it may be a mess, but it's worth trying.
The problem is easy to see. We all have ideas about how 3.0 should be balanced, and suggestions for improvements. Go to the public beta forum, however, and no one will hear your ideas except for a bunch of other players. The ideas & suggestion forums are even worse. A good idea will get lost in the mountains of silly 'awps for onos' ideas. Is there any way around this? Possibly.
We can use the might of the LM community. The devs, I believe, do want feedback. They just don't want to wade through the reams of whiny posts to find anything useful. So we make it easy on them. We have a community here with dozens of almost daily players, plus many more occasional players. Why don't we hash out all of our ideas about the balance issues in 3.0 and write them down clearly and concisely in one document? Then we get someone that the dev team wouldn't dismiss, like a PT, (cough LB cough) to email that document to them. It would surely have a lot more impact than posting in the forums, and it would be more useful feedback for the devs. If it's received well enough, we can keep it up with each successive beta until 3.0 goes final.
Thoughts, agreement, flames, offers to bear my children?
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Great Idea, I'd certainly help out.
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rgr that.
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I'd love to try that, sounds great. I might play 3.0 knowing that i can discuss the problems with it intelligently with somebody. I would also appreciate the fact that my input isn't being drowned out by the cries for all sorts of unintelligent 'improvements.'
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So what's the plan? Everyone get together on a server sometime and talk about what sucks and what doesn't?
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sounds good to me... as long as I get to whine about how the fade needs a total rewrite XD
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I really don't see anything wrong with the fade, whats your problem with it?
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Well, you could email Flayra first of all to find out if he even cares :p I mean, getting a random email that says "FFS BALANCE NUBFAEC!" probably wont' go over too well ;)
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Well, we can use this thread to vent our spleen about what sucks and what doesn't, then agree on the most important points, second most important, and so on. I figure to get the most attention on the most important things we'd want to get those in first. Things like new ideas for gameplay, the least likely to get any attention, would probably need to be last. Then someone, which will probably end up being me, will put it all in a clear, readable, and friendly format (we want to be as un-whiny as possible in the final version, keep the whining in the thread) and then we send it off. I'd rather focus on real NS as much as possible, but we can put in a section about combat if we feel the need to.
So, start venting. First thing that comes to mind is the new Acid Rocket. What else do we take issue with?
Edit: Uranium has volunteered to email Flayra for us and find out if he's interested in this, how nice of him! >:D
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oh dear, we might end up with our steamids hardcoded into the game as banned... lets hope hes tactful
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HAHAHAH good call ulatoh. Well, I'd send an email even, I just wonder how many emails from people wanting to tell him how THEY would make his game that he gets every dary, and how many he actually bothers to read, considering. Does anyone in the community have a line to flayra or to one of his entourage? PTs, old school vets, someone?
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Very good idea there Bob. I'll help out.
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Flayra does play on the servers a bit, and LB is a PT, he can likely get in touch with him.
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Sure.
I'm In.
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Shotgun sucks, siege sucks, grenades suck, electricity is stupid.
NS balance summed up :D
BTW: I'd probably be the worst person to e-mail him... seeing as how I'm his arch nemesis evil twin.
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not to derail this thread but for isamil; it's called a 'fade'. The name and even the general descriptions of it give the impression that it's either a fast or stealthy killer. The current Fade is more like a small onos with a skulk's leap =P
I'd advocate re-writing the fade by either...
a) accepting it's becoming a tank and just updating the general descriptions and changing the name.
b) re-doing the fade, making it more fragile (lower the armour again? ) but considerably more stealthy and speedy. Attempting to phase out skills like metabolise (yeah I know it's useful now but I don't feel it fits the fade image) for an additional manouvering ability such as the 1.04 blink (and renaming the current blink to 'fly' or something lol). Maybe up the claw damage depending on how well or badly the changes go (being weaker in protective armour means it really needs to kill it's target fast and without being noticed. Add in maybe an innate ability to not show up on MT and bang, new fade that's more worthy of the name and image =3
Course, this is less a balance issue and more a design issue but still something I feel flayra kinda jumped off the boat about ^^;
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I didn't really notice much differance between 2.01 blink and 3.0, I still get adren, and it still dies quite fast unless you fly around a lot.
Edit:Ohh, 100 posts.
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The 2.01 blink was just faster. It's really hard to take out a jetpacker now, because he can just jump away faster than you can blink. I went around and around in cargo on hera last night with a jetpacker. Got a few good swipes in, and he nicked me a few times with his HMG, but even after dogfighting for two or three minutes, I never did manage to take him down, and he retreated through the door back to MS.
However, the blink speed was lowered to allow newer players easier control over the fade. I don't know why. Fade is simply not a newbie class to play. You just have to know the exact moment to blink out and be able to aim it so you don't get trapped on a pipe on the way. (like I do all the time>_<) But, the point is that something flayra changed to help out players new to the game doesn't seem likely to get changed back again.
And yes, in the long term I'd much rather see a fade that actually FADES. Give him health and armor close to that of a skulk, but change blink to make him totally disappear (not just X% like cloaking), and make it so that bullets travel right through him, and he can walk through placeable entities. That would be a fade that could waltz right in to a turret farmed room, blink in, swipe a marine down, and blink out before the marines have even swung their LMGs in his direction. And it would seriously add to the cool factor of the game. The low health/armor would keep it from being overpowered, as you'd only need a single clip to take him out. But that's not likely to go in any time soon, and has very little to do with balance suggestions. But it's cool, so nyah!
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if you're a blink-hopper like me the 3.0 blink is incredibly lousy =/
Fade Fliers probably won't notice it much really except for the speed reduction.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the fade isn't really all that 'fadey' ^^
are we gonna have all the suggestions in this thread or is there gonna be a seperate one for our calm discussion? =3
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Bob, can I bear your children?
Anyway... I agree with everyone in one way or another... But not U235... lol <3
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good god,i know it's buggy, but the 1.04 blink just was the coolest thing.. ever.
some things i'd like to see
-a better JP counter, at least in Combat, the OC spam seems to work pretty well in classic
-faster blink and leap
-make turrets able to hold their own for longer than 5 seconds. i know,i know, you should rines there, but if i have the rez, but i don't have the rines following orders, i should be able to splurge for EFFECTIVE static defence no?
-some sort of effect like CommGhost so that the rines know where the comm is looking
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I have a copy of 1.0 that I whip out to play with blink every once in a while. It always either does nothing, or else I blink and get stuck in a wall. But it was still a cool idea. I think I actually have the original 1.0, so probably if I got the 1.04 patch it might work a wee bit better.
Anyway, we're getting away from balance changes and into suggestions. Remember, we'll have a much better chance with suggestions like 'increase gorge armor by ten points for balance' than 'fade needs completely new blink'. So with that in mind, what balance changes can we suggest, based on our extensive 3.0 playing?
So far I've got 'double acid rocket RoF' and that's about it.
Eedite: Speelinng
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I've "gathered" any/all ideas I've posted on the NS boards that were pertinent to this thread, some balance, some enhancement (I promise nothing too stupid/wild), and placed them below:
Topic One: Build Radius
Summary:
I think current marine building radius is a little too high, not much, but maybe needs to decreased a small amount. I really think the radius should just be removed for turrets. That's the biggest trouble. .
Example:
On Caged, if you place one turret in the back by the CC, it can take up the entire side of the CC build area.
Topic Two: Different Upgrade Path, Multiple Chambers Per Hive (Conditional) (Just to test)
Summary:
Allowing multiple chambers, which have the same effect as they do now (use movement to hive, cloaking sensories, healing defense), but limiting upgrades to number of hives (i.e. one hive = one upgrade from one chamber ONLY, such as if defensive upgrade used, cannot get sens or movement upgrade until 2nd hive). This will give much diversity, and allow for interesting packs of aliens. Yes, the marines will need to be more aware, but the res cost to do such a thing prohibits this from being overpowering. Let's say the aliens want to have Lvl 2 of all three chambers at start, so those who choose each chamber get one lvl 2 upgrade. That's 60 res. Plus the initial ten to gorge for each player. Have the remaining players drop nodes and that depletes your starting res pool, i.e. no higher lifeforms for a while and/or no hive for a longer period fo time. Therefore, for building more chambers in early game, you are still sacrificing majorly, and depending on more nodes to survive.
Example:
The Pros:
Early Game: you can cloak key choke points, have DC's healing, and have a MC at hive in case of attack. Gorges also have the ability to drop a MC quickly if starting hive under attack.
Mid Game: If an alien team chose not to build extra chambers to start, but instead focused on map control, they would have the ability to drop multiple chambers quickly and "tech up" much faster. This will help out by allowing aliens to push on marines strongly in mid game, making a hive two alien somewhat of a match to a lvl 2 marine by keeping him guessing on what upgrades aliens are using.
Late Game: In late game, by not locking a chamber to a hive, should the marines take hive location(s), the aliens can still have the diversity of dropping different chambers to build/use. Since the marines are fully teched, this should not be an overwhelming advantage, it should only level the playing field slightly if the marines are not effectively moving forward.
The Cons:
Early Game: You can have any chamber you want from game start, but building enough to make an upgrade useful will consume a good bit of res, especially if you choose to drop all three. And since you are spending so much on the chambers, you will not have much res for OC's or other defense. Also ever res spent takes away from res for nodes, higher lifeforms, and hives. Remember, to gorge and drop three of a certain chamber would cost 40 res. To drop thre of all chambers just for the aliens to have a choice would run you 120 res starting... That's 8 res nodes, or 3 hives...
Mid Game: If the alien team did NOT effectively keep control of the map, the poorly guarded structures in the field will be destroyed, and res flow will be very low, basically being wasted on chambers that have been destroyed or chambers that aliens do not have the resources to upgrade.
Late Game: Currently, if you HAD three hives and are down to one, you can choose all three upgrade chambers. If you attached amount of upgrades available to amount of hives, you can choose only one upgrade, limiting your power. Although you still have the ability to build sensory, movement, and/or defense, the lack of upgrades hinders ability (Disclaimer: I think any alien who had multiple upgrades at the time a hive went down, should keep all upgrades until he/she died).
In conclusion:
An alien team using this early game sacrifices res for higher lifeforms/earlier hives, and mid to late game gives slight offensive advantage and reward for map control. It seems to me when the aliens are defeated to one hive, the game lends to a quick end, due to the heavy limitations of the alien tech. However, marines can turtle until they can sufficiently attack. Allowing multiple chambers may give the aliens a better chance of returning, one of the things 1.04 made extremely satisfying.
Topic Three: Squad Commander
Summary:
The idea is to be able to select marines, then right click on a single marine, creating a small WP above his head signifying squad leader. This guy has no abilities above a normal marine, but the other marines know to stick with this guy. Then give individual WP's to the squad leader, showing on fellow marine HUD's if you'd like, but once the squad leader reaches it, it disappears (no more lingering WPs because the entire squad didn't make it).
I think this would allow those less familiar with maps and/or play style to follow and veteran player. This will also keep individual willed-people in the same group from fighting over authority. You know, where one wants to move on and another wants to hold location. The commander chooses the squad's leader, and if he turns out to be a poor one, it falls on the commanders shoulders.
This would be ultra simplistic to add to 3.0, give the expected influx of new players some added guidance, and allow the commander to rely on key marines to get the infantry where it's needed.
Clarifications:
1. This isn't a promotion in any sense of upgrades and advancement, it is instead a mobile waypoint instead of a static one. It in no way gives the marine "leader" any advantages over his teammates..
2. The current Guard soldier WP is buggy at best, and the marine with the WP on his head has obscured vision when he moves faster than the WP, and it's so big, it blocks any marine that gets near him's line of sight. We need a practical, efficient WP that's not too large.
3. If the squad "leader" dies, the rest of the team could still have the static waypoint for reference. Or, depending on how much Flayra wants to implement this, even an audible message for the commander, "Squad leader down", to signify for him to come to the squad's aid (if he's focused elsewhere).
Example:
We are recruiting many new players to NS due to 3.0. Most of these new guys really want to follow orders, but they don't know the maps, main chokepoints, favorite alien hiding spots, etc. Last night on veil, for instance, I asked the marines to go to a waypoint, some just took off running for it, some went the long route, and some grouped up and moved out. Only two made it. Some people have yet to truly learn how to properly move in groups.
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This post is addressed to Gem, and Isamil, concerning the fade:
The problem with the fade is the foreward hitbox of the swipe claws. If the hitbox were more fan-shaped, allowing for less-precise aming of the claws, we would have our stealthy killer.
In the Techtrope, you see the fade described as appearing out of nowhere, attacking, and fleeing. I think that, perhaps a better alternative to the blink skill as it is now would be a kind of triggerable redemption that worked both ways.
Lets say that the fade is within radius X of a group of marines, (this radius would be comparable to the siege range of siege turrets) perhaps a kind of hivesight alerts them to this, and they can then trigger their "blink", teleporting them into the room with the marines. The fade teleports in silently, and cloaked, and then attacks, with a weaker attack, i propose it take 4 swipes to kill a marine. When the fade is low on health, or simply feels the need to skedadle, he uses his blink ability again, which transports him back to the hive, essentially a triggerable redemption.
Under the current hive-to-upgrade hierarchy, i propose this be a tier 4 ability. Allso, since fades are purely stealth, most of their health and armor would be taken away, and they would have silence by default.
I've thought of this in much more detail, making accomodations for all occurrences i can think of, but i wont waste space if noone is interested. Let me know if you are, and I will elaborate.
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I do think swipe's area of attack could be increased more so that it wouldn't act like a very short range gun. Devour also. What I would like to see with devour is either a huge cone of fire right at the onos's face, or else an actual crosshair of some sort. Right now, it acts like its got a crosshair, but we're not given one to help with aiming. And while the pointy horn of gore points to right where your attack will fire, the crooked horn of devour is only confusing. Put a mouth shaped crosshair around the middle of the screen, like two stylized rows of onos teeth, to show where the attack will fire at.
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So far I've got 'double acid rocket RoF' and that's about it.
I say do the opposite. Decrease the acid rocket's rate of fire while increasing its damage and energy cost so that it will be usable in conjunction with other abilities. The current acid rocket simply cannot be used in conjunction with other abilities. With its extremely low damage but high rate of fire, it must be spammed to be effective. And it really isn't fun to just stand somewhere and hold the attack key. It also does not seem realistic that the Fade could metabolize so many of those large balls of acid.
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Ah but then we'd be right back to what the acid rocket was before it was changed. Which, honestly, was just fine with me. Useful for base busting, especially with a couple fades doing it. And useful for flinging down a hall to smash armor before you blink in for the kill. Either way would be fine honestly. If it's put back to previous levels, or if the current RoF is doubled, the end effect would be the same: being able to deal 50 damage per second. Right now you can deal 25 damage per second, less than the gorge. (Spit RoF is 1.25 per second :blink: )
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Either way would be fine honestly.
I don't agree. The acid rocket would in my view be far more useful and fun to use if it could be used in conjunction with other abilities.
Right now you can deal 25 damage per second, less than the gorge. (Spit RoF is 1.25 per second :blink: )
The times found in Balance.txt are not measured in seconds. They are instead measured in units of time that appear to be slightly shorter than half-seconds. That is not to say that that comparison is invalid, however; I just thought I should mention this.
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Ulatoh:
I think the fade could use a small increase in its cone of fire, but I don't really like your idea. Its to cheap and it would be rather buggy. Say there are 2 groups of marines around, how does it choose which one? Blink as it works is fine, perhaps it needs a small speed boost, but other then that its preaty good.
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The times found in Balance.txt are not measured in seconds. They are instead measured in units of time that appear to be slightly shorter than half-seconds. That is not to say that that comparison is invalid, however; I just thought I should mention this.
Actually, I'm going by the beta manual (http://www.natural-selection.org/manual_version_2/Natural_Selection_Manual_Framed.html), which is probably not entirely correct. It does feel faster than a second in game, but I can also feel the difference between AR and spit, and spit just feels faster. If I could fire off four of the current rockets in a couple seconds and blink in for a kill, fine. If I can fire two 50 dmg rockets in the same time and blink in for a kill, also fine. What I don't want is the current useless rocket. BLAH!
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The times found in Balance.txt are not measured in seconds. They are instead measured in units of time that appear to be slightly shorter than half-seconds. That is not to say that that comparison is invalid, however; I just thought I should mention this.
Actually, I'm going by the beta manual (http://www.natural-selection.org/manual_version_2/Natural_Selection_Manual_Framed.html), which is probably not entirely correct.
From what I have seen, the beta manual uses the exact same values as can be found in Balance.txt.
It does feel faster than a second in game, but I can also feel the difference between AR and spit, and spit just feels faster. If I could fire off four of the current rockets in a couple seconds and blink in for a kill, fine. If I can fire two 50 dmg rockets in the same time and blink in for a kill, also fine. What I don't want is the current useless rocket. BLAH!
I tested the rates of fire of most weapons sometime back in 2.0 or 2.01, and assuming they have not been changed (and it does not seem that they were) the acid rocket attacks approximately every .5 seconds and the Gorge spit attacks approximately every .42 seconds.
[edit]
I have been attempting to determine the number by which a time found in Balance.txt can be multiplied in order to convert its unit of measurement to seconds. I have arrived, unfortunately, at many different numbers:
.5
.513
.517
.521
.524
.526
.556
.625
.629
.667
I also found that any time that is not the rate of fire of a weapon or ability is measured in seconds.
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Something I'd like to see?
A change in the Combat Respawn System. (Yes Combat) Currently three aliens spawn for one marine. Fine in theory but when the conflict ends up on the marines home front it is quite possible for the aliens to completely rape the marines as more than 3 skulks can happilly chew the CC and kill the lone marine that spawns. Repeat until you have one marine spawning every wave and the rest of the team in the queue. While the aliens are constantly gaining EXP and becoming even more larger lifeforms (Read Tanks) That the low level marines cannot handle.
While it sounds good in theory it just makes marines coming back from a massed attack on the home front impossible. And of course by the time the alien team is fully alive again the marine team is only at half strength. Its a constant loose for the marines and it only requires a little co-operation on the alien. Whereas a marine assault is always more difficult and its just harder to take down a hive when three aliens spawn right next to you.
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Civ: That's cool, I'd really love to be able to get access to more specific hard numbers about everything in ns. Damage numbers, health number, those are easy enough to find, but rate of fire numbers, rate of regeneration number, speed of welding armor numbers, etc. etc. are all pretty difficult to come by.
Venmoch: The current co spawn spawns 25% of the team at a time, rounded down. It's the same for aliens and marines, so unless you've been playing 12 vs 4 games, you shouldn't be seeing that kind of spawning. The current system really encourages spawn camping, and just pisses a lot of people off. I'd much rather see a 2 person minimum spawn, to keep this from happening, and a return to a 1/2 second or 1 second invulnerability period. Spawn invuln in combat was removed after beta 1 for reasons unknown (probably that they're trying to speed up combat) and since then has only led to more and more spawn camping aggravation.
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a much larger incentive for marines to gtfo out spawn in combat.
Sure, you could shoot the hive, get moderate experience, and work towards the end of the game, but that is not nearly as fast as camp spawn gain tons of xp while you pick the skulks off as they come in, and then tech to jps.
Solution? Take the jp and a baseball bat and whack out most of the usefulness of it.
This could mean: much slower fuel regeneration, faster fuel consumption, -1/4 fuel capacity.
Sure its still semi-useful, but you can't just keep dodging hits anymore.
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what to ppl feel is really broke in the game? i hear talk about fade and such.. but what are the issues that need to be addressed?
the lack of uberness of 3 hives (altho i've seen games where the rines control all themap and are just startgin to take down one of the 3 hives, should theynot be able to do so without alot of tech?), the no counter for jp, what? what makes the game really 'broke'? in your opinion.
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Balance weapons.
First part, ripped straight out of someone's post, and I like it.
First i would like to say i am NOT suggesting new ammo types. Those ammo types would require another weapon slot, so no, i wont be suggesting that. Down to business...
The marines would have 4 damage types tied to their weapons - Light, Medium, Heavy, and Explosive. The aliens would have 3 armor types - Skulk armor, Fade armor, and Onos armor.
Obviously, Fade and Onos armor can only really apply to those evolutions, while Skulk armor applies to Skulks, Gorges, and Lerks. Each MARINE weapon (NOT alien weapons!) would be tied to one of the above damage types, and can have only one. How the marine weapon's attacks breaks down like this:
Knife - Medium
Pistol - Medium
LMG - Medium
Shotgun - Light
HMG - Heavy
Grenade Launcher - Explosive
Hand Grenade - Explosive
Mine - Explosive
Welder - Explosive (It could be thought as such since it has heat...)
Now, a chart explaining things:
Armor | Attack | Effectiveness
Skulk | Light | 100%
Fade | Light | 75%
Onos | Light | 50%
Building | Light | 50%
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Skulk | Medium | 100%
Fade | Medium | 100%
Onos | Medium | 100%
Building | Medium | 100%
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Skulk | Heavy | 25%
Fade | Heavy | 50%
Onos | Heavy | 100%
Building | Heavy | 75%
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Skulk | Explosive | 25%
Fade | Explosive | 50%
Onos | Explosive | 75%
Building | Explosive | 200%
So, from these charts you can EASILLY see that a shotgun (light damage) shooting a onos (onos armor) isn't effective (50% damage per hit), while shooting it with a HMG (Heavy damage - 100% damage per hit on Onos armor) is. You'll also note that Explosives arn't that good against any armor type but buildings, because that's where explosives belong -- depsite the player's use of them. If mines no longer kills skulks because of this, incease the mine damage until it does kill a un-upgraded skulk (A skulk w/ carapace should survive a mine explosion - those plates are there for a reason, you know!)
It'd also give more flexability in ballancing the marine weapons, because now you have instead of 1 or 2 damage types you have 4 to work with and tweak. All the numbers here are just a rough estimate to give you a idea of how effective they should be.
These damage types knock weapons into their proper places once and for all, despite the player's use of them. I dont know wether or not these %'s should be placed before or after armor-damage calculations, but i think once damage is done to armor and is about to go to health it should take effect (so damage flow chart would look like "damage done to armor -> damage type/evolutionary armor comparison + calculation -> damage done to health")
//You can stop reading here if you want. Continue if you want examples of how it'd play out.
Shotguns would no longer own the onos, because the onos has such a large surface area of armor but shred smaller lifeforms - LMG/Knives/Pistols remain just as effective now throughout game - HMGs dont tear apart the smaller evolutions as bad but love to smack the onos down (you'll encounter more then 1 HMG for sure, so it's at 100% damage for that reason) - Explosives will destroy completely any WoL, but fail to kill a tricky Lerk.
It'd also force commanders to put down different weapons. Some would retain their LMGs for over-all combat ability + good hits against fades, HMGs for anti-onos, shotguns for anti-small aliens, and a GL or two to knock down speed bump WoLs; more strategy, imo, especially when combined with JPs and HA.
[NOTES:
O Eggs would have skulk armor
O Electricity would do Medium type damage
O Turrets would do Light type damage
O Seiges would do explosive type damage (despite not using explosives, it *explodes* the building it targets, hence explosive damage type)
O Alien attacks would stay the same (It's the marine's weapons that need bumping back into their places, not the aliens'! )
O Alien armor would function just as well as it does now - it's the HP damage that's reduced after armor damage is calculated.]
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Well, go on. Post now.
Second part, ripped out of my posts. From 2.01 so the issues are a little out of date, but the idea is still the same.
So I'm in another thread typing out why I think Level 3 upgrades for marines are vastly overpowered... when I realized something: Marine Tech seems to 'jump' instead of 'ooze' like the aliens do, and it's got a very very poor mix of overpowered / underpowered parts to it.
Anyway, this is just a rant I've had since 2.0. Feels good to get it out.
For the aliens, their tech system is very fluid. When a hive goes up, it benefits all lifeforms in various ways, some more then others. When upgrade chambers are built, it'll give different abilities. There's actually 5 'pieces' to the alien tech tree:
1) Hives
2) Lifeforms
3) Defense Chambers
4) Movement Chambers
5) Sensory Chambers
There's really no set way to use the alien tech. It'll come at various times, sort of in 'upgrade waves', or it'll trickle in. The hive may go up, but no chambers may be dropped for another two or three minutes.
The marine tech, here, the flawed one, has 7 'pieces' to their upgrades.
1) Weapon Upgrades
2) Armor Upgrades
3) Adv. Weapon Tech
4) Adv. Equipment Tech
5, 6, 7) Misc. Upgrades (This counts as 3 as there are lots of important and powerful parts to this: Siege Cannons, Phase Gates, Motion Tracking)
Now here's the problem: Level 3 weapon and armor upgrades should be roughly equivilent to two types of level 3 chambers. Because the marine tech tree is much larger, in practice, they should actually be less. However, level 3, even level 2 upgrades are too powerful. Many games end with the marines just having Weapon, Armor upgrades, and perhaps a couple of the 'Misc' upgrades.
One part of the equation almost never enters: The Adv. Weapon Tech and Adv. Equipment Tech. When they do enter, it's almost ALWAYS when they're together, and it's almost always (Almost. Comebacks are possible) game over for the aliens.
Now why on earth does the marine tech tree, a larger one, overpower the alien tech tree in nearly every single aspect?
Let's say the top of the tech tree is equal to 1. Each marine 'piece' to their upgrade tree should only count as roughly 0.14 of the tech tree. Each piece of the alien tech tree should be equal to 0.2. Thusly, level 3 weapon upgrades should be slightly inferior to... say, level 3 defense chambers.
Currently, the marine tech tree equates to a total of roughly 1.5 instead, but the higher upgrades are worth about .4, and the lower upgrades are worth peanuts. The result: Aliens have it easy on marines in the beginning, but impossible at the end. The teams may be even, both may be at the top of their tech tree, and the players could be playing skill-clones of themselves, but the odds never look good when marines are at the top of their tree.
So?
The marine tech tree needs to be changed:
1) Weapon upgrades should NOT be a substitute for Adv Weapon Tech. Adv Weapon Tech should be roughly equal to the alien lifeform upgrades: When Item A isn't enough, change to Item B. However, the light machine gun (Key word there LIGHT) is capable of handling every situation on it's own. Only 2 clips at level 0 to kill a level 3 carapaced onos? Please... that's not right.
2) Adv. Weapon Tech shouldn't have the 'OH **** HMGS! SHOTGUNS!' effect it does. It should simply be... a change in how the marine handles the situation. Maybe gorges, or lerks, or fades, (or something) should scream 'OH **** HMGS!', but the ENTIRE TEAM shouldn't have to worry. There should be a HARD COUNTER to them. Instead, the marines get all the hard counters (Cloaking / Sensor Scan, Lerks / HA, etc.) and all the aliens get are soft (very soft. Jell-o soft) counters.
Do HAs worry about lerks?
Do light marines worry about gorges?
Do HAs fear Onos and fades as much as LA?
Do Jetpack marines fear onos and O Chambers?
No, no, no, and no.
So why do Onos, Fade, Skulk, Gorge, and Lerk worry about Light Machine Guns, Grenade Launchers, Shotguns, And HMGs?
A possible way to fix this would be to:
1) Drastically reduce the effectiveness of level 3 upgrades. They should confer a SLIGHT BONUS to the weapon, not turn it into a depleted-uranium-tipped HEAT launcher. They're costly, sure, but keep in mind they're global, and they're permenant. A level 3 LMG shouldn't be a standin for HMGs. I don't think Level 3 armor is as guilty as being overpowered as weapons, ut I think level 1 armor should be equal to what it is now, and slightly reduce vanilla armor values.
2) Slightly decrease the cost of weapons, reduce the time it takes to upgrade the armory, and increase the costs of the 'Misc UPgrades'.
3) Give every gun a special property. Light machine guns, for example, should do less damage to Fades, and just barely scratch an onos. Shotguns should do modest damage to everything, but should do almost no damage to structures. Grenades should do some friendly fire when they explode. Heavy Machine Guns should have much less accuracy then they do now, and should reduce the turning rate of a marine (Considering the poor accuracy is only a problem in... like... Viaduct and massive hallways, and aliens have almost no ranged attacks, it's not much of a drawback, now, is it?). Then lock mouse sensitivity during the game so it can't be boosted when grabbing an HMG.
The result? Instead of super-death-weapons all guns are now at level 3, the guns are suited for a certain ROLE, are cheaper so commanders hand them out more often, and have a HARD COUNTER. HMGs, for example, can't track faster targets. Grenade Launchers aren't wise to use in a crowd.
What else? Well we've slightly solved the problem in marine tech: Instead of upgrades that focus on KILL DEATH DESTROY, they focus on EXPANDING the marine versatility a bit, and change how the handle situations.
However, we need to look at the other side: Hives, and Endgame. Frankly, they're underpowered in a few cases. Leap, for example, isn't too much of a hassle for marines to handle. Even down a modest length corridor, a leaping skulk will only get halfway and be gunned down. It could do with a damage boost, or just a quicker leap in general. Nothing too much. Leap is okay how it is, but could stand to be a bit better and more versatile. Metabolize is hardly worthy of the 50 resource investment and 3 minutes. Xenocide requires a player to DIE, and it won't even take out a light marine at level 3 armor, possibly even level 2. They could do with a bit (Just a tad, and only a few) of beefing up, so a hive is a bit more of a priority for certain stages in the game. Ha.ze suggested that hives bump up the armor and HP of aliens, maybe even give them more powerful attacks, and I agree. (Sorry for saying 'A BIT' everywhere. I know some people's monitors don't show large chunks of reason and logic)
Finally, endgame. An onos might be a counter to a small group of HA marines, but that's a 100 res creature that can STILL die fairly easilly, and takes a long time to acquire. Webs are too late in the game to work. There's really only one solution: Onos, or throw your skulk selves at them and take them down by attrition. But what counters jetpacks? Spores are too ineffective. Spikes are going away. Offense Chambers are loosing their accuracy. I sense problems... already many hives are EASILLY destroyed by jetpackers due to the manuverability greater then a blinking fade on crack, and the capability to carry massive hardware. I think the penalties for weight on a jetpack need to be stiffer. Instead of just more fuel drain, put a 'thrust' curve on the jetpack, so with heavier weapons, they can only reach a certain height before floating back down to the ground.
Addendum 1
Heavy Armor. Now, you have light armor to start off with. You'll gradually get your armor upgrades up to Light Level 3. Then sooner or later, the commander may drop heavy armor. Now you've gone from minimal protection, slowly increased, then suddenly you've more them DOUBLED your effective armor rating. This is what I'm talking about: The marine tech makes such massive LEAPS it completely overcomes the aliens.
Basically, maybe make the jetpack, and heavy armor, have researches of their own. Heavy Armor has to research it's own levels of armor upgrades, but the cost or time of researching and buying HA is slightly dropped to compensate for the increased time sink. Jetpacks at level 0 provide nothing but a jumping boost upwards. More research allows it to lift more weight, longer, and higher.
Make what you will.
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Well, on the three hive issue, my solution would simply be making all third hive abilities that do damage do double damage against structures. (AFTER the AR is fixed back to its previous levels, so that it will be doing 4x the damage it's doing right now vs. structures) This would completely negate annoying marine turtling on one RT. Marines are much weaker without their pretty toys, and three hives implies pretty good map control. If the marines can't even keep you out of one hive and they aren't in the process of taking a hive down by the time you've got the third one up, it really should be difficult for them to come back from that position.
Also, the health of onos could still use a boost. It's supposed to be a game breaker, it ain't. Fades are more useful right now simply because you can fit more than one of them in a room at a time. Onos are BIG, and they get in the way of eachother when trying to take down a turret farmed base full of HMG marines. I really wish they'd break and fix the co vs ns problems. Either allow multiple upgrades per chamber in NS (which is not that terrible, there are many suggested schemes that would allow it without screwing up the game) or admit that the game modes are different and balance health/armor differently for each. I know they lowered the cost of the onos exactly for this reason, because he falls fast. But that's the pinnacle of alien tech. And they're effectively admitting that he's weak by lowering the cost. Aliens have NOTHING better than that. And a hive 3 onos with carapace falls to 114 l3 HMG bullets. That's not even a clip. That's two guys with HMGs firing for a second or two. Three guys, the onos won't even get his head in the door. HOW CAN YOU TAKE DOWN A BASE LIKE THAT? Chamber support is nice, until the marines build one siege cannon and your healing station becomes a magnet for nuclear blasts.
Aliens can eventually win, but in situations like this, which are seen all too often, it just takes too long to be fun anymore. Marine end games work out quite fast. They charge in, they smash, they win. And with the good old ping of death, the aliens can't ninja another hive up unless they happen to be right there and the marines are quite stupid. Marines, when cornered in one area, can still fight on and on and on and even have the chance of sneaking one guy out to build another CC and IPs somewhere. This never wins the game, but it does make it even LOOONGER.
So. Imagine acid rocket doing 100 damage a shot to buildings, or focus doing 400 damage to buildings. Clear out those turret farms real fast, instead of waiting around eternally while the marines respawn and gl spam ad nauseum.
And charge. Charge, simply, sucks. It serves no useful purpose, except for running into MS to devour one guy and running away. Hit and run is NOT the role of the onos. He's supposed to be a tank. He shouldn't have to run through MS in two seconds or less to survive. Charge should either do enough damage to buildings to practically instagib turrets on contact, or it should be replaced by a totally new ability. Put the onos back at 100 res and make him more useful, the 3.0 onos in all betas has been a poor excuse for an onos. Should be renamed to an oh-blah, or an oh-who-cares.
JP has a counter, it's OC spam. JPs are a problem in combat, but as people may have noticed, I don't give a flying @$%*! about combat until NS is perfect.
Well, I said this thread was for venting. Let's get some more venting, agree on some main points so we can send this off before it's too late to make any difference. (which we can only hope it may)
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to be honest I pretty much agree with the way you 2 (bob and U235) are headed, though of course one of the reasons the fade is more useful isn't just their size; it's their cost to health/size ratio. For what you pay the fade is a real tank compared to onos... I've not done the numbers but I still feel the aliens are becoming less diverse and more similar. It's kinda like the aliens are slowly beginning their fall into the marine trap U235 was talking about where all the 'weapons' (in this case evolutions) are pretty much the same in the DIE! DIE! DIE category =/
With the inclusion of CO the new changes seem less RTS-inspired (each unit having it's own role) and more FPS related (MORE WEAPONS!!! MORE POWAR!!! GIMME TEH BFG!!!) :p
gah... I'm still off the mark amn't I? lol
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There's no point in discussing the 'balance' of 3.0, its not like anyone is going to take this into consideration. The only thing we can do is have fun with 2.01 or play other games.
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Le sigh. Grimm is probably right... This was my last ditch effort before giving up and admitting that the devs are a bunch of ivory tower smacktards who wouldn't listen to useful input from involved players if they were tied to a chair and had it delivered to them via megaphone.
But hey, MAYBE BETA FOUR WILL FIX EVERYTHING. EH? EH?
Yeah, if you want me, I'll be busy beating a hole in the wall with my head.
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As long as we have 2.01 and 1.04, Bob, they cannot take our fun away. We'll set up our own 1.04 server and possibly keep Lunixmonster going as time progresses.
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heck to that, I'm having enough fun as it is making my own mod ^^
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But will it have a BFG? And will it be balanced!?!?!!
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to respond to owl, the thing i think is broken, is that 5 onos (the aliens highest evo) with all upgrades, is in no way comparable to 5 ha's with all upgrades, hmgs and such...
when it comes down to it, fully upgraded marines> fully upgraded aliens
I think that when they are maxed out, it should be fairly equal, and that games should be decided by strategy, not firepower
and the siege cannon, I allways have thought it was out of place... if we dont have beam weapons, how do we have a portable artillery cannon of gravimetric doom?
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Well since this is just turning into a general complaining thread, I'll just generally complain. Siege cannons were put in to counter walls of lame. (Which didn't need a counter, ever heard of GLs?) But like a lot of big changes, it seems they didn't see fit to playtest it or even think for thirty seconds about the imbalancing effect it would have on the game. Of course marines would stop walking into hives if they could easily siege them from outside. Of course it stops aliens from building anything around MS at end game when they NEED the chamber support to be able to take marines down, since aliens are already so inherently weak. The only thing sieges don't seem to get used for is actually countering walls of lame. Unless the team is rather noobish, they'll just get a GL and shoot the WoL around a corner.
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i've read in many places that late game rines should dominate late game aliens. as the aliens have a more dynamic game, they can get map control,but must clear out the rines. rines are better at holding areas, and slowly taking other areas.
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Which seems kind of odd, when you realize that alien tech is all tied to location. If you don't have a hive, you can't get that level of tech, plain and simple. The marines can plop down another base anywhere they want and recycle the old one. Would be nice if aliens had more ability to take locations, at least at the third hive... but meh, I'm getting tired of beating that horse.
The basic problem is that current game balance pushes the aliens into attacking early and repeatedly, or the marines into digging in and turret turtling. I want an enjoyable middle game, with the winner unclear for a while! As it is you can usually tell who is going to win after only a minute or two, but it still takes an eternity to play out.
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one thing that might be neat to se would be:
if marines have structures in a hive room (lets say more than 3) aliens can "upgrade" their hive, to carry out the functions that the other would have granted, but it costs more res... and respawns just as slowly, and is still one location that is easy to attack
dunno, feel free to shoot that idea full of holes :help:
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Nah, there's a LOT of good ideas like this. Check out the I&S forums some time. There have actually been some great ideas tossed out that could improve the game a lot. However, that forum is a giant black hole. Nothing ever comes out of it. The developers just put it there so people could feel like their ideas were being heard and not email the devs about it.
But we can't even get them to admit that they need to change something very basic in the game back to the way it was before they screwed it up. The chances of a NEW IDEA being put into the game are just plain zero.
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Off topic sort of:I read in the manual that the seige cannon used sound waves
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Yeah, focused sound waves used to break things apart at the molecular level or some other wondefully sci-fi thing like that. It has minor basis in fact, but mostly it's just neat sci-fi. Any an annoying weapon for aliens!
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If the TSA could use that technology, you'd think they wouldn't have a problem with the Kharaa.
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Nah, siege cannon uses Gravitronic Posilecular Monosiliconitical Neutrositino technology.
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theres no such thing as...
Gravitronic Posilecular Monosiliconitical Neutrositino technology.
... is there? LB?
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You know you have a point there, mal. If they just have wallhax cannons, why don't they just attach their ship onto the infested station and blast their sieges right through the walls? Surely as long as they can get there and provide a solid medium for the sound waves to travel through they wouldn't actually have to enter and fight hand to claw?
OMG hole in the NS storyline! The world is unraveling!!! AGH!!
Edit for spelling. And for one more AGH!
AGH!!
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heck to that, I'm having enough fun as it is making my own mod ^^
Let me guess: RC2 without the BS Cannon?
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lol, nope... it is a lil wacky at the moment I suppose but the finished idea should be less "LOLOLOL I KILLED JOO WIF TEH FUNNY WEAPON" and more like smash brothers melee or something ^^
basically it's all about your pet... at the moment it's a snark but once the basics are working I'm gonna let you choose from different models and skins and even name the lil blighter =D
Essentially your pet is the only weapon you have that can kill, all the others can help but don't actually damage the players, from the 'puntstick' (crowbar, once finished it'll work like smacking someone in smash bros melee minus the whole ringout thing), warpgun (teleports the player you hit plus their pet to a random point in the level, using spawnpoints for that just now but when I start making maps there'll be additional points it can use ^^ ) and other interesting things.
During the fight you'll also be able to pick up cash which you can spend in the shops, though you should watch your back when using them because if you've put money in (works like a snackmachine with a coin slot) and you don't spend it (ie someone warps you away or their pet kills you) the money just stays in the machine and someone else can spend it for you ^~
You'll also get to upgrade your pet to do more damage, go faster and a host of other things.
Apart from the whole thing with naming and skins/models I've implemented the other ideas to some degree already =3
It's a long way off started, let alone finished but it's not gonna be like any other HL mod you've ever played that's for sure ^^
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Nitwowl: oc would work well in combat ithink, theyd either A : be movable (parenting gorge of the oc hits use on it and it disappers so he can rebuild elsewhere , B: it would have a TON of HP, or C:it respawns 30 sec - 1 min after it dies, and when it does it will fade into view like when it looks when u touch a cloaked structure as marine.
edit: but of coruse with this idea u will get nubs saying GG MAREINZ SUOHLD GEIT TORRENTS WITH SI3G3Z!!!!111!!!1!1!11
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Yea, and I can honestly see every newb marine in a game saving for turrets right away and turret farm their main start up. Having the turrets would nullify the purpose of mines, which is what Kharaa need to 'balance' it: some kind of stationary structure that deals damage to the marines, perhaps a one-time use-per-spawn thing, like a special Kharaa mine.
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yea, same could go for aliens but mabye set a server side option to limit OCs to 1-3 and since ocs would be able to "respawn" if u evolved the oc would die. permenitly
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It should stay, even if the alien does evolve. You don't see mines going and exploding whenever the marine gets heavy armor.
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then it should not come back when it dies, otherwise u end up with a hive spammed with ocs
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Yea, and I can honestly see every newb marine in a game saving for turrets right away and turret farm their main start up. Having the turrets would nullify the purpose of mines, which is what Kharaa need to 'balance' it: some kind of stationary structure that deals damage to the marines, perhaps a one-time use-per-spawn thing, like a special Kharaa mine.
I was thinking about a similar "alien mine" , like those green ball things in opfor that stick to the walls , gorge could build one on a wall and when a rine waked past it would explode and some kind of acid stuff would come out and burn the rine . Something like that anyway *shrugs*
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Yea, its best to avoid stationary structures in combat, too many problems with deciding how they would work out time/life-wise, as Diablus has discovered.
;)
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they would be in normal ns :p
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this really isnt that hard
corrosive web, anyone?
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Teleporting between spawnpoints Gem? Remember to remove telefragging. ;)
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OK, unless anyone feels strongly otherwise, this idea is effectively dead. I don't think it would work anyway. So we can continue to use this as a bitch about 3.0 problems thread. Or a chat about Gem's mod thread. Although I really think that deserves it's OWN thread. (hijackers!)
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eee! lol. I was never any good at staying ontopic ^^
s'pose I should make a thread about ye silly moddy but I'd rather be working on the mod than checking a thread about it =P
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Yea, it might be best to keep the mod relatively under wraps for now, since there still seems to be a number of things you're working on. Good fun though.
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Either that, or find some web space and make your own message board. I want to be user # 5 or something on a mod that is no doubt destined to become more popular than CS!!!! :D
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rofl! I dunno about that bob, I'm having a hard time getting anyone to help with this PT build at the moment =3
should be good once I get the basics sorted and get to work on optimising and pretty things ^^
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Contributing to the further derailment... No one mentioned playtesting to meeeeee! Why don't you just go make your own thread already! I'll happily be a guinea pig.
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If I can figure out the game and such I might be able to whip up some maps, if they don't need to be too complicated. Major problem with my NS map is it takes so damn much dedication to perfecting it.
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I do think swipe's area of attack could be increased more so that it wouldn't act like a very short range gun. Devour also. What I would like to see with devour is either a huge cone of fire right at the onos's face, or else an actual crosshair of some sort. Right now, it acts like its got a crosshair, but we're not given one to help with aiming. And while the pointy horn of gore points to right where your attack will fire, the crooked horn of devour is only confusing. Put a mouth shaped crosshair around the middle of the screen, like two stylized rows of onos teeth, to show where the attack will fire at.
Mein h4x.
Place it in your steamapps/halflife/ns/sprites folder, overwrite what you currently have et voila. HLDM crosshair for devour.
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I've always thought it wouldbe kinda neat if eggs had some ability of some sort. I was thinking that since it can see outside, and thus approaching enemies, it could willfully pause it's gestation and use a xenocide-like ability. no more sitting helplessly while marines approach. damage would be determined by the current time passed gestating, so it cant be used an an effective offense weapon. EEG BEWM = FUN
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in one of the earlier betas i was gestating back to a skulk from a gorge and a rine came by to kill my egg; however, he was only able to get it to 30 hp 0 armour before i finished and i killed him as a skulk. needless to say he wasn't very happy :ph34r: