Shotguns

[A Boojum Snark]

However owen, the HMG and the GL are quite a bit different. Both require an upgrade that is hefty in both time and res. HMGs are hardly better than LMGs at killing strutures, and GLs are rather crappy at killing aliens (aside from a skulkrush) compared to a shotgun given the projectile is slow, has a sharp arc, half the clip size, and each round does less damage than a shotgun shell. With shotguns there is nothing they are bad at. (if you wanna say they are bad at ranged combat, well, what method of combat do aliens use 98% of the time?)
I think one thing that should make it somewhat obvious shotguns are overpowered is when the commander suits up the entire team with HA/shotty, even though he has plenty of res for HMGs with a couple GLs.

I think most of my hate for the shotgun would go away if it had some disadvatages to it, thing it did not work well against; be it upgrades, aliens, structures, certain lifeforms, certain structures... whatever.

[a civilian]

I think one thing that should make it somewhat obvious shotguns are overpowered is when the commander suits up the entire team with HA/shotty, even though he has plenty of res for HMGs with a couple GLs.

[snapback]34088[/snapback]

Then that is a bad commander.  HMGs are better than shotguns against every alien lifeform.

[A Boojum Snark]

That is true that HMGs are better at killing aliens, but 5-7 shotguns are better at blasting through all aliens and lame they encouter faster in the end than 4-5 HMGs combined with 1-2 GLs.

I have also seen comms do this that are not bad comms.

[Guest Bacon]

My feeling on this is, shotties are not "overpowered" against the aliens. Rather, they are "overpowered" in the sense that they are more useful than the other weapons. This is the same as fades being "overpowered" for aliens. Fades arent nigh invincible against marines, but they sure are preferred over the other alien units, including the more expensive onos.

Correct me if Im wrong, but this is what I think NS has come down to...Shottie vs Fade fights. Whoever comes on top in this fight gets a truckload of momentum, if not the win.

[That Annoying Kid]

well said, and I think your correct

it just comes down to aliens excelling in melee combat and a shotgun is pretty much a meelee weapon, and it can be used for long range with those crosshair dealys  :rolleyes:  :huh:

[Reasa]

I've played every version of NS and the shotgun has never been such a problem that I would want it removed.

Perhaps after a horrible ninja phase and subsequent 5-8 second death of the hive by an entire marine team wielding boom sticks, I've thought that something should be done about it. But when I calm down and think about how if we had just put up 2-3 OC's in the hive room, or had just 1 skulk keeping an eye on the hive how it could have been avoided.

The shotgun is a staple of the marine team, to remove it would unbalance the game incredibly, because the only way the marines could effectively kill a hive even against the crappiest of alien teams would be a prolonged siege, or wait for the armory to upgrade. I think the problem lies not with the shotgun but with hives not properly being defended. A few OC's or a skulk with some common sense can make all the difference.

As for it being overpowered against life forms...yes it is, on paper.
How many times do you see a good fade kill 4-5 perhaps an entire marine team then run away, heal, and repeat? Now compare that to how many times you see a good marine or two kill a fade with a shotgun.

There are plenty of people who are such good fades on LM that if I were to see some of them complain that the shotgun is overpowered against life forms I would have to hold back my laughter.

Even a good skulk without any upgrades can easily take a shotgunner like he had no gun at all by setting up a good ambush, or just jumping and weaving from side to side. You can't treat a shotgunner like a LMG.

That’s just my 2 cents.

[Vitamin Lead]

Basically the only thing that I can think of that EFFECTIVELY stops a shotty rush (even HA/shotty) is one or even two stomping onoses, with umbra support, and skulks biting the frozen shotgunners. But looking at the relative costs AND effort needed to get together a team of onos, umbra-ing lerk and multiple skulks all in one ambush, vs. getting a heavy train to march to one location, it is fairly clear which is easier. (For those who don't see the painfully obvious hinting in there, it's easier to get the marines together.  :p ) I don't know who said that HMG's are better than SG's, but I think they're right and this is one of the situations that shows it most clearly. As far as cost-effectiveness and "bang for your buck," the shotgun still wins and almost any category. I'd still take the "bang for you buck" over actually doing more damage or being a little bit more effective, in other words, the shotgun is overall better, although the HMG is best against life forms.

Basically, the shotgun is so versatile, that there's no reason not to spam it to your team as a counter to almost anything. (I know that many have said this, but why not repeat it one more time?   )

~VL

[[Freemantle]]

The shotgun is a transition gun for when Fades begin to be a problem. They are still higly inneffective in the hands of many players.

[That Annoying Kid]

it sucks thou becuase on TLM, most people aren't that player

shotguns turn rines into meelee fighters, which is where aliens are supposed to be comfortable, hence the inherent balance issues with the shot gun. However removing it pretty much isn't going to happen

[Guest Bacon]

The shotgun is a transition gun for when Fades begin to be a problem. They are still higly inneffective in the hands of many players.

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see? The game comes down to fades vs shottie battles.


"ogm! nerf shotties!"
"no, we need them to fend off fades!"


"wth! fades are overpowered!"
"what a nub. Aliens would get completely owned if it werent for fades."

[Crispy]

Shotguns are available from T-0 whereas it takes some time to see the first Fades.

[SwiftSpear]

The root of the shotgun problem is the fact that aliens can't afford to drop more than one OC in the hive early game, and consequently they need to spend too much time aquiring and defending resourses when in reality they should be spending a small ammount of that time acctually in base reporting it's status and fortifying things up.  That would be the heart of the issue in my opinion.  My fix?  Decrease OC cost or increase gorge res flow. (or both)

[Legionnaired]

Honestly, I think that the game is dead even. If aliens use teamwork, marines HAVE to be tight to win, and they have to be good. Spec LM sometime. If the aliens are playing as a team, getting people on target on time, getting a hive and multiple fades at the 4 minute mark, the marines will always have one hell of a fight, and more often than not, will make one slip up and fail.

I played a game today where the marines ninjaed a phase into Surface Access, got a HA train inside the hive. I umbraed the hive, called for backup. Within 30 seconds, the whole team was inside SA, killed the phase first, the killed each HA off one by one. As skulks, a lerk and a fade.

I've changed my mind. IMO: Shotguns are the only thing keeping NS balanced.

[fatty]

most good clans make sure hmgs are ready by at least 5:00 minutes, they are incredibly important.

[SwiftSpear]

most good clans make sure hmgs are ready by at least 5:00 minutes, they are incredibly important.

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They aren't quite as much a threat to hives however... which is the heart of the issue people have with shotguns...

[Decimator]

I think the issue with how quickly shotguns kill hives would be resolved if hives could sense nearby marines.  Just a warning like a flashing yellow hive plus "the enemy approaches" would be enough.

[Legionnaired]

I think the issue with how quickly shotguns kill hives would be resolved if hives could sense nearby marines.  Just a warning like a flashing yellow hive plus "the enemy approaches" would be enough.

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Quoted for genius.

Would have to be 2 or more marines though, ninja is a staple of NS gameplay.

[A Boojum Snark]

I think the issue with how quickly shotguns kill hives would be resolved if hives could sense nearby marines.  Just a warning like a flashing yellow hive plus "the enemy approaches" would be enough.

[snapback]35677[/snapback]

Quoted for genius.

Would have to be 2 or more marines though, ninja is a staple of NS gameplay.

[snapback]35682[/snapback]

Umm... legion... that defeats the whole purpose of having the hive notice. The problem IS the single ninja into a hive which allows the hive to be shotgunned in an instant.

[Legionnaired]

So make it show up when a building starts being built, or 2 marines.

[Decimator]

Ah, building or multiple marines would be good.