Shotguns

[holy_devil]

*please read this all before making any form of comment, and if i did any calcs wrong please say so in a friendly manner, but according to balance.txt and the damage sim, they are indeed correct, thanks in advanced*

I've got a very vanilla opinion here but I think the SG is just fine.  sure it's powerful in the right hands, but if it were overpowered, then a comm dropping his team 8 shotguns would be GG. 

I'm not much of a 'twitch' alien.  my bhopping sucks and I've never been that excellent at knowing what angles to run at a marine w/o getting mown down.  the games I actually come out of with a good score are the games I use stealth, which is the biggest counter to SGs imo.  running headlong at a sg marine and getting blasted in the face is not frustrating, it's stupid.  falling on his head or decloaking next to him or setting up an ambush = smart.  the end.

as for the hive killing ability - sg rushing a hive is a beautiful thing, and I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. :p the fun of being part of a rush definitely beats the annoyance of being an alien and watching the hive disappear in 5 seconds, IMO.

[snapback]33841[/snapback]

what? you just contradicted yourself there. if its overpowered..8=gg.. then you say 5 second hive rushes are perfectly fine? yet thats 80 res for a <5 second instant win. not to mention it can kill EVERY SINGLE LIFEFORM EXCEPT ONOS IN ONE CLIP, CARA OR NOT, AT ANY WEAPON LEVEL(against 1 hive, but seriously, how hard is it to have sgs against 1 hive aliens with them dropping hives in a stupidly overpowered amount of time?)

in all honesty, you can't call shotguns balanced. you can say you like it as is sure, but it is impossible to argue it is balanced in any way shape or form. i already see the: BUT HOLY, IF A FADE CANT KILL A MARINE IN 5.2 SECONDS THE FADE SHOULD DIE ANYWAY! but bob, if theres >1 shotgunner, the time gets multiplied significantly. level 0 shotgun, 4 shots. 4 marines, 4 sgs, dead fade. 40 > 50 res, instant death. or lerks! they barely live through a good sg shot(with cara, instant death at l1 weapons, especially with a pistol hit) skulks never ever live through a sg shot unless some bad luck happens, due to the lesser hitboxes/various issues with their hitboxes.

as well, sgs are close range. every alien is basically a melee unit, you can't realistically expect any of them to fight off a marine at range(gorges spit.. but i doubt a gorge is going to solo a sg rush anytime ever) as well, as i've stated various times, a shotgun clip soloes mostly every lifeform except onos at hive1.  as well, marines get ranged weaponry to top this all off, so they can hit close with a shotgun then the hmg/lmg can finish off the lifeform as it attempts to escape.

my main concern is not that this happens every single game, i'm not saying it will. i'm saying that it is POSSIBLE. as you may have guessed by now, i really hate shotguns. hive drops in the following # of pellets, in order of upgrade(0-3); 412,375,344,317. thats 41 hits, 37 hits, 34 hits, 32 hits. random extra pellets not really mattering, its a hive, if you miss it...yea. so lets do some math rq. 41 hits.. 8 shots per marine.. 8 16 24 32 40. 5 marines, hive has no health left, pistol, knife, tk, anything, its dead. that takes about.. 11.7 seconds. at level 0 weapons. so 50 res, 12 second dead hive. thats usually not enough time for aliens to arrive and change the situation at all =/ marines get beacon and phasegates, and the ability to relocate on the fly. aliens get.. 3 preset hive locations. so basically they really lack the kind of counter for a shotgun rush that is needed, unless they spend a stupid amount of res on OCs, which may give some reaction time, sure. but as upgrades increase: about same time for level 1, but does go down quicker with a team of 5, level 2 gives it 34 hits basically, so 40 res of shotguns and a lmg+pistol can take it down in 12 seconds. level 3.. 32 hits, 4 sgs indefintly take it down in 11 seconds.

now i'm sure someone will also come up with the arguement that you need to add upgrade costs to the cost of the rush, and phasegates, etc. well if you think for a moment, if you DIDN'T get those things, could you win WITHOUT shotguns? no. those are basically required, they just amplify the overpowered-ness that shotguns have. 30 res bacon+pg, say 50 res for shotguns, dead hive before aliens can react, and in other servers where structure distractions are okay, throw another 20 in to distract ocs with a CC, 0 reaction time <12 second dead hive.

okay summary is this: shotguns are blatantly overpowered with all of the things marines get. we've all seen it, we know how it goes. the only fix is that sg's get removed totally, there are no other realistic fixes. maybe nerf the damage per pellet, which would also be another option, but i'd prefer something to add a new flavor rather than just nerfing sgs into the ground, something maybe SOLELY anti structure(does crap vs lifeforms by itself) so marines get their "early game structure counter". i don't know, i'm not the best at thinking up ideas for things like that. all i know is sg's are completly overpowered, end of story.

a note: hive2 barely, barely improves any lifeforms aside fade, which gets an average of 4-7 extra pellet hits, one more shot basically. ns is balanced for 6v6, so 5 marines hitting a fade at the same time with a sg shouldn't be impossible, especially since the next patch requires "more marine teamwork"(they should be more likely to be together)

secondary note: presumably, hive3 being up and active usually spells doom for aliens, but if marines have the res for a jetpack shotgun rush, you can kiss all the hives goodbye in about 2 minutes tops, with 0 ocs. most likely there would be, but again, for most situations where you can structure distract, they will not matter enough.

edit, as a 3rd note(lol); you have to also realize this, killing aliens IS NOT THE GOAL OF THE MARINES. IT IS KILLING THE HIVES. the aliens DO NOT HAVE TO BE DEAD TO KILL THE HIVE. most people don't seem to get that.

----

/me hugs HD

Another point I like to bring into this is comparing it to the alien equivlent of a shotgun rush. What structure has above-all importance to marines? The CC. If marines have no CC it is probably a 0.03% chance of winning, and only then if they are fully teched up and suited out about to kill one of two hives.

So how can you kill the CC in under 12 seconds? Five onos. That is 375 res for just the lifeform, just as the 50-80 res for shotguns counts the weapon only, not other tech. On top of this, good luck getting 5 onos to marine start and through the obsticle course of structures to the CC unnoticed.

[snapback]33857[/snapback]

probably faster with a bunch of onos, with adren, and cara, and hive3, all charing the cc while goring it, with no marines knifing them(current patch) to move them, and they survive till it dies, and teh commander doesn't have the res for a new cc.

as for upgrades, a direct arguement i had against it is this: if they affected JUST THE SHOTGUN then you could throw the upgrade arguement around, but they don't, so no.

edit:

wanted to comment on legion's statement,

i have wanted damage types ever since i thought about that, so yea i like the idea. setting damage vs armor types for EVERY SINGLE WEAPON would make it SO MUCH EASIER to balance. but i've always wondered if its possible in HL


----

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the HMG kill any lifeform in one clip as well?

[snapback]33888[/snapback]

yes, but it can't drop a hive like shotguns can, and it requires 3 minutes of tech in a specific location, can't just drop an armory anywhere then drop hmgs. as well, kill the advanced armory, no more hmgs. shotguns are a beginning tech, however, so thats not a realistic argument. it would take 6 level 0 hmgs to drop a hive with a full clip, thats a lot longer than it takes level 0 shotguns, and only 5 shotguns(and some pistol to finish it, but still, faster than hmgs) to do it.

edit;

sure, sensory, especially in b6, helps a ton to counter this. but its not really fair when they are trying to open the chamber order to more possiblities to basically require aliens to get sensory first. if they don't, its basically pretty easy for a marine to sneak a pg up and beacon then dead hive.


---


should be sufficient enough, with the quotes

[DiscoZombie]

I always thought welders should do more damage to structures, as an early-game structure killer :>

[Vinegar Ninja]

why are you ranting at us?
shouldnt you be ranting on the NS forums?
and I do agree :p
ok, now that I have actually READ it, heres my thoughts
sure its easy to take down a hive that no one is in, but your forgetting in your calculations that there should be an even number of aliens all taking hits, and sucking up ammo, distracting the marines, and making it hard. A fade or a lerk or an onos can do even more. A few skulks in key places can really screw up a rush, sucking up ammo, armor and res for medpacks.
I do agree that shotties ARE overpowered, but its not THAT drastic :p

[A Boojum Snark]

/me pokes vinnie's hive with a ninja phase gate 15 feet away. Umm yea... not too much walking and time involved in getting there in that rush. :p

[holy_devil]

yea vinnie, since the forums are up and all.

anyway, as stated in there, its easy to ninja a pg outside a hive, if the entire team is in the hive, then its a battle. my point is that a team of marines CAN drop a hive stupidly, stupidly fast if they are so given the chance.

also, if the aliens are making an offensive push, say on the second hive, they probably will all be there trying to make it happen, since they can't win any other way. meanwhile, jimbobjoe is off next to the hive putting up a pg. marines beacon, aliens think its to save their position. comm recycles the pg they are hitting, full team of shotguns appear in the original hive, <10 seconds dead hive. zero chance of reaction time. but i'll stop here before i repeat myself more

[Keyser59]

Did you know 6 skulks can rush the base with noone defending, and its game over. Does that mean we should nerf the skulk? You might not be able to kill the commchair, but 99% of the time you will cause enough damage to guarantee an alien victory if you do it right.

Hive 2 barely improves any lifeform? Uhh... hello? Hive 2 are the gamesavers for aliens. Leap, umbra, bile bomb? Maybe I misinterpreted your quote. If you get hive rushed with shotgunners at 2 hives, then something needs to be improved on the aliens teamplay.

Saying the marines can't win without shotguns is meaningless. Can the aliens win without fades or lerks or gorges?

A lerk and a smart team of skulks can take down any early game shotgun hive rush, as long as they have good scouting. Trust me, in CAL you never ever see a shotgun rush like the ones you talk about, you just need teamwork. In fact, with 5 marines in the hive with shotguns and lmgs, it can take more than 45 seconds to a minute to finish the hive off.

I'd hope a fade doesn't try to take on 4 shotgun marines. Again, this is where lerk gas and skulks can help significantly. It's not easy juggling between the harassing skulks and the fade while trying to dodge the gas, even with marines for backup. Try it sometimes, teamwork works.  

You know, an LMG can solo a fade. An HMG can solo an onos. Do you understand why these basic statistics shouldn't be used? There are so many other factors that need to be incorporated, and you ignoring them is not an accurate analysis.

Changing damage types vs certain armour typs is a horrible idea in a fps. You know why people play CS? They have a chance versus any player with any gun. At least that's why I enjoy CS. Right now, NS is built so it is impossible for certain types of classes to kill other classes one on one. While this hurts the fun level a little bit, introducing armour levels would be unbelievably frustrating and counter-productive. New players would quit because they don't understand why things don't die when they shoot them, and experienced players would get PO'd when they die to that skulk just because their gun isn't built specifically to kill it. In a RTS, it's understandable because it promotes diversity, but in an FPS it would be unbelievably frustrating and just plain bad.

I think the shotgun is slightly overpowered not because it can kill hives, but it can roam around the map early game and take down RTs without much resistance. This is my main beef with it, and I think their should be some sort of timer to prevent shotguns from coming out too early.

And Holy_Devil, could you try making your posts slightly more coherent? I read a few times where I understood what you meant but the word you used meant exactly the opposite.

[holy_devil]

CAL isn't my concern, pubs are different, and most gamers play on them. that isn't what im trying to argue(clans vs pubs, w/e) so lets drop it. that said;

6 skulks rushing base, undefended. as stated in my post, marines can relocate on the fly, and have beacon to top it off. worst comes to worst, you do that(relocate) and just pick up from there. aliens don't have that kind of option, they can't support themselves with no hive building(or up, obviously ;p)

by hive2 not improving much, it seems i stated that poorly. yea, the abilities are amazing and helpful, agree completly. but what i meant to say is that hive2 doesn't improve the aliens situation vs shotguns very much. basically, the extra absorb doesn't really do enough to matter. umbra though, does really, really hurt shotguns, as well as every ranged weapon(except gl etc)

5 marines in the hive taking over a minute? you spawncamping again keys?

LMG level 3 can solo a no-cara hive1 fade, provided you miss 3 bullets. hmg(level 0) can solo an onos, 74 hits at hive1 vs no cara onos. but that requires 3 minutes of tech, that has to be repeated if the armory is taken out. big difference from build the armory, get the weapon, at least imo

and yea, rethinking the damage types idea as you put it does make it sound very horrible. but as i stated i'm no visionary ;p

on another note, tons of factors do indeed come into play, yea. can the marine get to the hive unnoticed, etc. again, as i said, its the possibility that is my problem with it. and it has indeed happened quite a few times(shotgun rush, hive dead before aliens get within 2 rooms, they finally get there and are greeted by instant death if they peak their heads out)

but i guess in another perspective, you can use MCs to get to the hive, provided theres one nearby when someone notices the marines near the hive or the lack of marines elsewhere on the map, or the first hit on the hive, etc. but with how shotguns are atm, anything movementing in will most likely near-die or die instantly, basically leaving aliens in a worse situation than having them not respond. spawn queue upped, have to wait for hive2 to go up if it isn't, if it is then hopefully a lerk could stop the marines long enough with umbra D:

i believe the above catches everything in your post, respond as you wish. i'm actually starting to believe myself that shotguns aren't as bad as i picture it, but its really a loop of bad experiences that really push me towards hating them extremely. and can you point out an example of " I read a few times where I understood what you meant but the word you used meant exactly the opposite."? i honestly need input on that because i may not see it(i understand what i wrote, i may read between the lines etc) as well if there are any in this post, i'm tired.

[TheMunch8]

couple of quick points.  its late and im tired, but here i go.
Hitting straight on with a shotgun on life forms can be hard for the average pubber.  You are considering that a 1 shotgunner can take out 1 fade.  More often then not, i will put my money on the fade, because he can dodge very well, to get the marine to empty his clips.  If there is more then one shotgun, there hsould be more then one alien.  Either a lerk gassing them to get rid of armor, or maybe some sneaky skulks.  

If the alien team lets the marine team get a PG up in their hive, and has 5 shotgunners in there without noticing, then that hive deserves to go down.  Teamwork will beat shotguns.  If you can get one skulk to lure a shotgunner away from the rest, easy kill.

for the aliens, if you take out the Armslab, the marines are almost useless.  level 0 weapons against higher lifeforms are futile at best.  level 0 shotguns against a good hive 2 fade will die.  a good hive 2 fade can take out 2-3 shotgunners in a big area fairly easily, add on level 0 armor, and they are toast.  

Point is, if you have a lapse in teamplay which you allow 5 shotgunners into your hive, That hive should go down.  If you don't work as a team to get rid of shotgunners, then the aliens deserve to get picked off one by one.

[lolfighter]

One thing that HD is right about though is how easy it is to get a full team of shotgunners into a hive. Send one rambo/ninja to each active hive, then give the first one to get to a hive a PG to build. If he manages to complete that, beacon and phase through and you have half a dozen shotgunners at the hive. I know how that would end in 2.01, and according to HD, 3.x is not much different: Dead hive.

How about base patrol, though? In 2.01, one Fade or Onos on base patrol (and that would usually be me) would catch many an attempt to ninja a PG into a hive or other surprise attacks. I started doing that after losing too many hives to surprise attacks. But this is where the pub spirit is a real handicap: We don't play to win, we play to have fun, right? The problem is that base patrol isn't very fun. You spend lots of time running around behind the frontlines, looking for enemies that may never arrive. It's just not as fun as hitting the marines right where it hurts, tearing down their outposts and RTs.

But it's essential, and it grew on me. And when I radioed my teammates a quick "PG going up outside cargo!", followed soon afterwards by "Nevermind, I got it," I liked to think that people breathed a sigh of relief as they got back to ruining the marines' day. Sure, base patrol wasn't as action-filled and intense as frontline fighting, but I knew that I was doing an essential piece of work and that I had prevented many an alien defeat through it. Besides, the thought of the commander cursing under his breath as a Fade comes out of nowhere and destroys what seemed like such a promising sneak attack just moments before was part of the satisfaction.

So, who's pulling base patrol these days? If it's not being done, you should give it a try. It may not be a perfect safety net, but it sure beats having your hive rooms empty and unguarded. And if people ARE dedicating time to protecting and patrolling the aliens' turf, then why isn't it working anymore? Any ideas?

[confused!]

i will agree that the shot gun rush is an incredibly powerfull tool at the amrines disposal. At the same time i see it as an esential element in the game,  i see the shot gun rush as a last ditch attempt to kill the hive before umbra comes up. once the aliens have umbra shotgun rushing a hive is nearly untenable with out heavies. this is at least in part due to my terrible skills as a comm, no doubt.

however, the key to surving the shotgun rush in my humble opinion is movment chambers. 90% of the time the rush is spotted long before it reaches the hive. thus, the second the hive is hit skulks start raing from the heavens. In my experience this means that at least half teh amrines are forced to shoot teh skulks instead of the hive in order to survive. and in many cases tha marines are simply over run. once umbra enters play the marines have to hunt the lerk down before the hive. and as the second hive is up tehre are probably going to be skulks raining from teh sky as usual.

this si not to say that the shotgun rush is  balenced but it certianly is avoidable, either that or my marines are dying just to spite me.

also i blame george.

[fatty]

might as well merge my last post in the other shotgun thread into this one.

omgforumadminhacks.  :ph34r:

[Keyser59]

When I mention CAL, I don't say it to mean that all players should have the communication and teamwork that CAL players have, but thats generally what they should strive for. At the highest level of play, shotgun rushes are not problems, so that means with some added teamwork, you guys should be able to devastate shotgun rushes.

6 skulks rushing a base will always do enough damage to guarantee a win. Unless the marines have been dominating the whole game, it is extremely hard to come back from a skulk rush.

Holy_Devil, a smart alien team can delay marines from taking a hive down for a while, especially with a lerk. Again this comes with skill and teamwork.

Well, a level 0 lmg can solo a fade with a pistol. But you missed my point. Is that a realistic situation at all? No. Is four marines with level 0 shotguns getting a completely full blast into a fade a realistic situation? No. You need to give ingame situations that aren't "It takes X amount of bullets from Y gun to kill Z lifeform".

At least a few people should be checking their minimap constantly to check for weak areas of the map. This is where theres not much fighting but a straight walk from the marine base to a hive. Like lolfighter said, I find a few alert aliens will smack down a shotgun rush in its place. If worse comes to worse, just tell somebody to monitor a risky route to your hive while doing whatever it is he normally does (gorge, lerk, etc).

[A Boojum Snark]

I think a lot of you are missing the point here. Granted, I see shotguns as a problem in more areas than killing hives, but when it comes to killing the hive the problem is not shotguns alone.
Ninja phases when coupled with shotguns are the worst thing there is. I myself being an excellent ninja (numerous times I've had (good) players commenting while on death-spec asking how the hell I got to _____). The point of ninja phases is to avoid all confrontation, if a skulk sees me while ninjaing I give up, stand there, and let him kill me. My stealth has been lost, and the skulk feels they have stopped me.
Toss in motion tracking, and the only things that stop me are scent of fear and an alien that checks every damned nook and cranny there is. If I get a phase gate up next to the hive, and we have enough res for beacon+shotguns, that hive is dead.

[TheAdj]

When a hive dies to a shotgun rush in a scrim or a match, the entire team says the same thing at the same time:  gg piss-poor scouting.  Rushes are all about PREVENTION, not REACTION.  You can't let a PG go up in a hive, lose the hive to a rush, then cry about the shotgun being overpowered.  Prevention is key on alien side, and the reason aliens lose so much is terrible scouting and not getting the units needed when they're needed (all of this is horrible communication).  

Imagine if the comm never dropped stuff when it was needed, it was always 5 minutes late.  I know some of you have had comms like this, they take 2 minutes and 50 text messages to drop a single RT.  This is exactly how most alien teams function, and it's ridiculous.  Aliens have to actively keep tabs on the trouble areas and not REACT to marines being in an area, but PREVENT them from being in those areas.  When you're saying "marines are in double" you're already reacting, you should have kept them OUT of double.  This requires some intelligence and actually having the right units at the scene when they're needed.

The shotgun requires a ridiculous amount of skill to use.  If you go by pure numbers one shotgunner could down the entire alien team, yet almost always 2-3 skulks will take one down.  Use a little bit of phychology, intelligence, and common sense, and it's entirely possible to take down a shotgunner or even a HMGer as skulk with little effort.  By the time shotguns and such are out marines stop even glancing at ambush spots because NO ONE uses them after that initial gambit.  If skulks actually ambushed from smart spots they'd kill a lot of marines.  No, above the doorway isn't smart.  That little cranny that no one checks is the spot you want, or somewhere totally unexpected (Above RTs is always a good spot).  

Rushing marines is pretty damn stupid and most people complain when they ran't run at a marine and kill him (and when that works it's either due to hitbox anomalies because about 85% of the skulks in the game don't hold down crouch OR horrible aim).  About the only time marines should be rushed head on is when they're out of ammo or there is no other choice (Cargo on veil anyone?).  This is why the shotgun seems overpowered, people just run headlong into mass shotgunners and wonder why they die instantly, especially fades and such.

[Mr.Bill]

Funny how marines can bitch about getting killed by a skulk way to easily, just because he dosn't know how to aim or such, But on the other side, its perfectly fine for a alien player to bitch about how they cant kill a marine because their not using the right strategy or such. :-D That's very vague, but I think it holds true.

On the side of ninjas, (sorta like abs said) If you have good hearing in a quiet room, with 2 or even 1 speaker.(headphones=h4x) You can almost always get next to or near a hive... With motion hacking I find myself for a pg within spitting distance of a hive (I know it's overkill, but come on, shotty rush pg thats RIGHT NEXT TO THE HIVE! how insulting is that?) I know if gorges put 2 or 3 well placeds ocs in the hive, ninja's would be practically impossible without killing one. I find those are the biggest halts to my ninjaing. (I Also, am a very well trained ninja, dunno if Im anything like ABS, havnt seen him ninja.. but I know I can be uber awsome at times.. I mean jeeze, cant comm, cant aim, got to be able to do something right?).

 Ninjas are strong, but if you have just  a few ocs, or a skulk running around randomly, their easily prevented (or slowed down depending...)

[Diablus]

Very Well said HD...Very well said

[lolfighter]

There's no such thing as a perfect strategy, tactic, or style of play. And when there is (1.04 jp/hmg rushes), it's a balance problem.
Base patrol is not perfect. It takes a player or two away from the frontlines, and it'll still let the occasional ninja through, modified by the skill of the ninja and the skill of the patroller. But as I'm sure Mr.Bill and ABS will verify, an active patroller is a real pain when ninjaing. Especially because patrollers tend to check nooks and crannies more than people who are just passing through. And even if the patroller doesn't find you, he slows you down, wastes your time. And the longer you take to get to the hive, the greater the chance of discovery is. Add to that the few patient patrollers who WILL check every little hiding spot, and ninjaing becomes much less effective. Finally, at the end of his journey, the ninja HAS to reveal himself: Not only is a PG far more visible than a lonely rine hiding in the shadows, but building it makes a telltale noise too. It's a small window of opportunity, but it can very well mean the difference between victory and defeat.

I'm willing to bet that base patrol is the most neglected role in pub play currently, considering what I hear about ninjas and shotgun rushes here. I can understand why, too: Most people find it painfully boring. It's time for people to swallow the bitter pill and start asking: "Who's checking our turf?" and be prepared to take over that role if nobody else speaks up. Take one for the team. And maybe you'll end up liking it, like me.
And if somebody reports how he took down a ninja just outside the hive, take a moment and thank him for saving your hive from yet another ninja pg/shotgun rush. He'll be happy to know that somebody recognizes his efforts, and it'll motivate him to keep pulling guard.

[DiscoZombie]

I like patrolling.  it's FUNdamental, just like reading. <3

I wish the server stats showed which team won more, so we could see how unbalanced they really are...

[Mr.Ben]

Adj is right, again. You all talk about shotgun rushes, ninja phase gates, beacon rushing as if it's the marines fault when it happens; It's not, it's the aliens fault that ninja pgs and shotgun rush happen.

Nerfing, removing or changing the shotgun isn't the answer, in my mind the shotgun is the most enjoyable part of the game, there's nothing more fun than being rushed by a number of skulks and seeing how many you can drop, it's about deadly accuracy, 1 shot and 1 kill and if you miss a shot then you're going to get kippered. It requires a degree of skill and accuracy to work, you can't just spray and pray.

So how do you stop a shotgun rush? The strongest and most overpowering tool available to ANY unit in NS is the most underused one, it's called the minimap. Lets create a scenario, map is ns_tanith, starting hive is satcomm. Tanith is a map nearly everyone is familiar with, it's arguably the most popular ns_ map there is. In tanith, like in all maps there are a number of key places that you need to watch.

In this case you want to be watching chem transport and cargo. This is where the mini map comes in. When you spawn you don't just run off to wherever you last died or to where you last saw marines. Bring up your minimap, it shows you an overview of the map, what rts you have, your hive, position of skulks and any marines you see or any other aliens see appear too. It's all in real time so you can just hold it down and watch your alien teams movement at a far better level than hive sight will ever allow.

If you see no skulks are in chem, if you see no skulks are in cargo, head over there, cover them. You stop ninja phase gates by scouting and seeing early marines, keep your mini map so that any marines hiding which skulks run past will appear and you can go hunt them down. I've lost count on how many times i've picked off lone marines because i saw them on the minimap, a marine ANOTHER skulk saw, missed and i went to pick off. The same marines that would be the one getting ninja phase gates. Make sure you parasite any marines you see or at least report them in teamsay and voila you've got something resembly decent scouting.

Another important way of stopping shotgun rushes is eating resource towers, not often done in public. Most skulks rush off to where they last died or follow the marines, they don't scout with the minimap, they don't eat RTs. Shotguns cost 10 res a pop, each RT gives you 1 res every 4 seconds, 1 RT can give you a shotgun ever 40 seconds, that's a long wait for one shotgun. Of course multiple RTs decreases the time.

Still with satcomm hive, have skulks take the vent through double, get to the other side of the map and start chewing their res, the less res, the less tech, the less guns, the less you have to worry about. Not killing res is just an invitation, "please MrMarines, drop more guns and out tech us." It's very much possible for aliens to win rounds even after losing the second hive.

The final point is, yes you guessed it, higher lifeforms. Lerks are absolutely positively essential to a good alien round, they remove marines armour 1 advantage, they draw fire like mad and they cost marines a fortune in medpacks. Lerks are also your keep scoutig unit, they're extremely manuerable and fast, if you're careful you can easily scout, drop off a few spores and call any ninja PGs or shotgun rushes before they even get near the hive. Gas gas gas gas, let skulks pick them off.

And of course, you have fades. HD says they can't take on shotguns, well of course they can't but when is it EVER just 1 fade versus 4 shotguns. That is not a dead certain to lose situation, you just need teamwork and cunning to break them. Firstly marines a) reload B) turn away c) shoot other aliens d) weld e) miss. All these things provide fades with an opportunity to blink in, if the comms not fast enough and marines are worn down then it can just be a single swipe to kill the marine. If you're a fade use other lifeforms to draw fire and make use of vertical movement to dodge shots.

Teamwork & scouting > shotgun rushes. Common sense, cunning and opportunism > multiple shotguns. You don't nerf features because you're too stupid to scout or too stupid to have some patience when it comes to killing.

[Owen]

With the amount of controversy around the shotgun, I myself am confused as to why people actually bother to have it included if there are worse things to whore. for instance, the GL can get annoying in the right situation. As can the HMG.