Nudity

[Geminosity]

Ok, this was really brought to my mind again by City of Heroes changing the outfit colour choices to try and prevent 'nude' characters but it's always been something that bugged me to my thoughtful lil core...

Nudity.  It's always a catalyst for outcries, embarrassment and anger.  The Human body is not just a part of natural life it seems but some soul-destroying horror that society must be saved from at every available opportunity, even over people mutilating each other with guns, chainsaws and a host of other gory displays of gut-smeared violence.

If a person walked down the street naked several things would happen...
a) parents would immediately burn with anger and tell their children not to look or would attempt to shield them from the evil vision.
b) Others would react in a number of ways from feigned ignorance to laughter/wolf-whistles.
c) the naked person would be escorted away by police with a jacket or whatnot put over them to "protect their modesty".

Has anyone ever really thought why non-sexual nudity is a bad thing?  What if the parents didn't stop their kids looking?  What kind of message are you giving the kid in this situation?  "don't look because the human body is an instrument of shame"? "don't look because seeing another person naked is wrong"?  It's so deeply rooted in the average person they don't even question the reasoning behind this attitude.
Think about how many times you've closed the windows or whatever when getting changed because you don't want other people seeing the imperfect filthiness of your nudity =/

"Values" taught to you when you were young like this damage your self-confidence (oh noes! I'm human! nakedness is evil! don't look at my body!!!) plus I personally believe it's even a little to blame for sexual deviancy that can read to rape or the like even.

Civilisation seems to have just reached this neurotic point where we simultaneously revile and admire the human form.  If a beautiful model appears on Television naked  for some bathroom/body product advert it's fine and dandy; it's sensual, it's a show of natural form; nobody changes channels to hide it from the kids.
If that same model walked down the street naked minding their own business it's an unlawful act punishible by the law which inspires embarrassment and anger.

I'm no nudist but I'm not ashamed of my body in the slightest, nor anyone elses.  If they're particularly vile-looking because they don't look after themselves clothes aren't going to change that any =P


I've not really thought this post out; just typed it as a stream-of-consciousness style rant but what do you guys think?  Am I right?  Am I wrong?
What's your views on non-sexual nudity? =o

[Venmoch]

Lazlow: "Alright Liberty City, you are listening to Chatterbox, the show
        that is the number one reason...for the success of the internet.
        Alright, let's take a call...who's on the line?"
Caller: "Clothes!"
Lazlow: "Wh...what about them?!"
Caller: "Clothes!"
Lazlow: "What are you talking about??"
Caller: "Lazlow...clothes!! Clothes, Lazlow! I hate 'em, I just hate 'em!"
Lazlow: "Eh...we're a...we're all about opinions on Chatterbox, which is
        er...Liberty City's premiere phone-in station. But...why don't you
        like clothes...?"
Caller: "I just hate them, they're so constricting! I mean does a lion
        wear clothes? And the lion is the king of the jungle! So why
        can't I, a humble citizen, go naked!?!"
Lazlow: "Well I mean I guess a lion has two distinct advantages over
        you. One, I mean you say a king, and therefore it can exercise
        it's royal prerogative to not wear clothes, and two, it's a cat,
        and therefore doesn't have to, and three, I mean...now that I
        think about it...if you want to try to dress a lion you can,
        but...I...I guess what we're learning is that life can be a little
        unfair at times!"
Caller: "I'm naked, Lazlow!! I'm naked!!"
Lazlow: "I...you know...I really didn't need to know that!"
Caller: "Why Lazlow, why? Does it offend you?? I was born naked, I'm
        gonna die naked! I'm going to live naked! So there! There's
        nothing wrong with being naked!! It's so invigorating feeling
        the hot leather of a chair...or the cool wind from the north on
        your naked body."
Lazlow: "I..I...I'm gonna have to cut you off..."
Caller: "Don't you believe in free speech...and free expression? No, of
        course you don't...all you believe in is free drinks!! I'm naked
        and there's not a damn thing you can do about it! I'm naked and
        I feel sooo good!"
Lazlow: "Wh...what about winter!?!"
Caller: "What d'you mean?!"
Lazlow: "You know...I mea...what about winter?! When the wind blows, and
        it's really cold...I mean...do you prance about like a ninny waiting
        for your privates to go blue??"
Caller: "I was born naked and I'm gonna die naked!!"
Lazlow: "Eh-heh...and all shriveled up by the sound of things!"
Caller: "Winter was invented by clothing companies! Clothes are
        unnecessary. They're ugly! Have you ever cooked in the nude??"
Lazlow: "Nah...look is this leading anywhere, cos I mean, we've got a lot
        of other people waiting to talk about real things here...!"
Caller: "Nudity is real! Open your eyes! Take off your pants, come on!!
        Come on Lazlow, you can be a figure-head for Liberty City
        naturists! We have more members now for the first time since
        1977. Nudity is back! A lot of people are into nudity and really
        understand the spiritual side."
Lazlow: "What?!? Hanging out with loads of naked chicks? I mean I see
        the fun in it, but...I just think that clothes have distinct 
        advantages. Like...like not accidentally cooking yourself, or...or
        when you're working on a building...!"
Caller: "We're not swingers! It's not about sex. It's about being one
        with the world."
Lazlow: "Alright dude, groovy, hug a rainbow..."

DON'T KILL ME IT JUST FELT APPLICABLE!

This line in particular..

I just think that clothes have distinct advantages. Like...like not accidentally cooking yourself, or...or when you're working on a building...!

[Geminosity]

lol, well there's nothing wrong with clothes for warmth or protection silly ^^
The point isn't that people wear clothes, it's more the reaction caused when you take them off... :p

[SaltzBad]

Well, it can probably be melted down to a sort of fear - a learned, well-trained fear of exposing yourself to others. I notice that the less comftorable I'm around people, the more I'd mind walking around them with my pants down, literally

I dare say theres both a social reason (the simple ideal of cleanliness making society easier to operate), and a purely speculative more instinctive one - we are after all one of the farely few mammals with large un-furred areas (plus, most furs are more sophisticated than even our main hair). Whereas exposed we are vulnerable (enough examples here already, like uhm cooking your own wiener).

So to be perfectly honest, the overblown fear of nudity aside, I doubt you'll ever see a world in which theres no such thing at all. Taboo-izing in itself is probably a common society prooblem (or sort of a vent for 'generic anger' - similiar in function to xenophobia), and not something thats restricted to nudity in any way - its more of a need to feel outrageously in the right about something. A kind of reassurance that you're not a bad person.

A similiar example is the hypocrisy surrounding a 'sensitive topic', in how the non-discussion thereof or how to do so in 'good taste' becomes the prime issue of debate, and not the topic itself. And just as anyone knows theres nothing wrong with discussing a sensitive topic 2 seconds or 2 years after the deed, even the people that will shield their kids eyes from nudity know full and well that the human body is pretty much all they have anyway.

There is however the strong learned taboo overriding that, and thats probably why we see that big difference in what is said and what is done. One is learned (to taboo nudity), and the other is instinctive (that nudity is in most cases just fine).

The lesson is, literally anyone is malleable to an unbelivable degree, away from what might even be their very nature. Just goes to show that intelligence (the ability to learn) is as much an animal-like trait as anything else



Okay, so for lacking a better place to put it, just in case there was any ambivalence in the above, my views on nudity are essentially 'do whatever the hell you're comftorable with'. And obviously, nobody has any greater right to impose on others what to do and not concerning nudity (technically, if on private property only). And there is by god no way that the display of nudity, being nude or anything else can possibly be harmful (lets just assume you can think along and not go naked into a blizzard).

[CForrester]

I agree with you 100%, Gem. Unfortunately, like you said, it's been driven in to my head, so I wouldn't feel comfortable being nude in public or anything.

If I ever have a kid/kids, I'm gonna try to teach them otherwise. Probably get me arrested because they'll think I'm just a pervert trying to see little kids naked, but it's worth it if they learn something valuable.

[Fewlio]

Rofl Cforrester, they'd accuse you of being michael jackson olo(burn).

I don't really see anything wrong with people being nude, I mean there are nude beaches in other countries(besides the US... and people dont swim in canadaland ) and nothing wrong ever happens... I think its just a big USA fad like "WTF THIS MAN IS QUEER BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!!!!111" and "Ooohhh tabloids! they tell the truth!". I think our national IQ has dropped quite a few points over the years.

[Ulatoh]

<=== was raised by hippies

i can walk around the house naked now, and noone says a word...

and NO, ive not been abused... freaks...

when im in a public setting and i cover myself (locker room, etc.) its cause i know seeing me naked bothers them, not cause im embarrased

[ThoraX]

bah, nothing wrong with being naked. I mean, who's to say we're all not naked while we play NS... :rolleyes:  I see clothes as more of a way to keep warm and customise youself or something I guess. Clothes help others see what kind of person you are in a way. now lets all post pictures of ourselves naked. OMG LUNIXMONSTER PRON EDITION!

[Fewlio]

OLO MSPAINT PICTAR OF SELF oh wait... im not gonna draw paint pr0n. Nope.

[lolfighter]

bah, nothing wrong with being naked. I mean, who's to say we're all not naked while we play NS... :rolleyes:

Remember, the playermodels are covered in nothing but... skins!

[rad4Christ]

My take is from the religious equation. I personally agree Gem, in fact, my wife and I discuss what we will "shelter" our child from.

In what I do, I see teenagers battling with sex, or more commonly porn, all the time. I've really pondered why this is such an issue, if our sexual nature is so carnal it is almost impossible to control, but I don't really think that's the case. I think it boils down to the fact we live in a society that at one time (in the US, at least) based it's core values on religion (Christian Theology). In Genesis, the story of creation, Adam and Eve, the first man and woman created by God, walked naked in the Garden of Eden. However, once they sinned, they were ashamed of their nakedness (I'm really cutting the story short, go here for the whole thing). Most people who associate themselves with the Christian church adopted the belief of nudity=shameful from this. But, that's just the basic values taught. From there we move to modern media. We live in a society that teaches skin=sex. We teach that it is immoral to see one another nude, but media tells us it's cool to see haw far you can go on TV without calling it nudity, and movies portray nudity entirely in connection with sex.

Which brings me to my point. Our culture has created its own nightmare. We tease ourselves with images on television and movies, then tell ourselves it's actually wrong to do them. So our children are feeling conflicted by their own feelings of what their body is, and what the conservatives say their body is, and what media tells them to od with their body. My biggest grief is that we either get the message that our bodies are to be covered because of decency, or that we should be open with our body and use it freely in a sexual way. Instead, we should teach that our body is a beautiful creation, designed by God, and we should not be ashamed. But, we should respect our bodies and not simply be willing to freely give them away.

I think if our society would get rid fo the "taboo" idea of nudity, and see it in more than a "sexual" entity, we'd have less deviants, and less struggles with it.

[DruBo]

I probably wouldn't have gone here, but rad brought it up, so it's fair game.

Instead, we should teach that our body is a beautiful creation, designed by God, and we should not be ashamed.

Problem is, the biggest proponent of the opposite of the above is the christian church. Not necessarily the bible (raised christian, I'm pretty familiar with it) but generations upon generations of church leaders teaching their followers that their bodies, and anything sexual is inherently dirty, or sinful, and should be feared and resisted.

Which goes against a central christian idea, that we're made in God's image. God is defined as a perfect being, so, therefore, aren't we perfect too? We're taught to confess our "sins" of coveting a particularly comely member of the opposite sex.

The Hindu offshoot of sikhism took care of this pretty well; in their views, there is nothing inherently wrong with the human body and spirit, and the Gods are more like comforting parent figures than draconic all-powerful rulers requiring all followers to follow rituals for the purging of "sin." The modern episcopal church seems to have taken a page out of this book to a certain degree, but there is still confession, and sexual this'n'that is still considered sin.

Adam and Eve got a little nooky there in the garden, yah, and then they were ashamed. But Genesis has been through the language blender so many times that nobody really knows that the embarassment bit wasn't just added for the purposes of imposing social conventions on the loyal followers. I mean, hey, the Bible says it, so it must be not only true but the original meaning as well? Right? Beuller?

[rad4Christ]

DISCLAIMER: Below are some close personal views I believe are true, do not think I am preaching or forcing my opinion.

See, the problem within religious context is that people in the church (I don't call them Christians b/c going to church doesn't make you a Christian as much as going to a garage makes you a car...) focus on the rules of right and wrong. Don't get me wrong, there are things you should and shouldn't do, but that's completely off the point of what Jesus came to say. I try not to "sin" (sin is any wrong doing in God's eyes, for those less versed in TEH RELIJIUS LANGUAGE) not because I'm not allowed, but because I love God and I know it hurts Him (just like it's hurts your parents when they see you doing something that (can) hurt you). So, my life isnt' built around laws, but around serving Jesus because I want to, not because I have to.

With that stated, when people look at their beliefs as a sort of "rule book", they then try to shelter or abstain from things that can even tempt them to do it. For instance, most churches teach to not drink, because the Bible says don't get drunk. Some people won't watch R-rated movies, because they don't want the "world" to influence them. Well, if they feel that way, and it's the only way they can keep from sinning, good for them. But, stop throwing the baby out with the bathwater (to use and old, old saying). People are afraid of nudity, because they're afraid to be tempted. That's stupid. MY God is bigger than any temptation, or the entity which is trying to tempt me. So to say that I'm afraid to deal with these issues because of there power over me, is to say that Jesus isn't strong enough to protect me. I'm not saying I'm going to go to a strip club and expect God to protect me from lusting over what I see... I'm smart enough not to go to a strip club. But, if I see a nude person, I'm not going to go "OH LORD, I'VE BEEN TEMPTING TO CHEAT ON MY WIFE". I'm going to be more curious as to why a naked person is running around...

The other perspective churches take is the "appearance" of it (my least favorite). "Oh my goodness, if people saw you at a bar, what would they think!" Well, maybe I was at a bar because a friend of mine lost his job, is drinking his cares away, and needs my help. The Bible says to not be a stumbling block to other believers, so if there is something you do that may cause another Christian to stumble, don't do it. For that reason, I don't promote any non Christian music, or smoke, or drink at all, because I don't want my students to think it's okay to smoke or get drunk, nor do I want them to think because I like the way Marilyn Manson sounds I agree with what he says. I don't teach them it's wrong, I just tell them the facts of what God's Word says, and let them decide. But, I have 2 gauge earrings, and some people hate it. They think it's sacreligious (blasphemous even). Does that mean I'm going to take them out? No, they have they own personal preferences, and need to see past their judgements. The Bible also states "Do not judge others". So people have this issue of nudity because they feel it might cause other people to lust. Most people's outcry against it is not because they want to protect their children, or they want to keep it moral. It's mostly because they are afraid they can't handle it themselves. Kinda like people who tell others not to drink, because they'll just go out and get drunk all the time. Just because you are not strong enough to deal with that temptation, don't judge others because they can control themsleves without being tempted.

EDIT: Evil typos and spelling. SOme clarification

[devicenull]

These are my views, and my views alone.

Why people don't like nudity? They are afraid.
Simply put, they are afraid of anything that they haven't seen before. -- If noone wore clothes, then you would be perfectly fine with it.

Here I go off into ranting...
People in general can't deal with change.  They are slaves to the system.  Think about this, in the catholic religion, every time something new happens, their beliefs change.
Scientists pretty much prove that the big bang theory is correct, the catholic church is quick to come back and say that of course that happened, that it was caused by god.
Tbh, I only see religion as a way for people to make money quickly.  Does it require any effort to make stuff up and say its true? Does it strike you as funny that the "only bible" is on its FOURTH revision?
[/religion rant]

Anyway, I see nothing wrong with nudity, except it becomes more of a hassle when socieity doesn't accept it.  Then you have to deal with idiots (like the ones on the NS forums) who think that the only thing thats right in the world is them.  They don't like anyone to be different from them.

Think about this, the US was created by people so uptight, the british kicked them out --Some comedian, I can't remember who.

[Jefe]

I think it was Lewis Black

edit: or maybe Robin Williams

[devicenull]

Yup, now that you said that, it was Robin Williams..
I have one of his DVD's

[lolfighter]

When I give people a present, I tend to wrap it up in nice, colourful paper and put a ribbon on it.

At the moment, I am wrapped, not in paper and ribbons, but in pance and a sweater and stuff (it's cold here, still. Heck, it's always cold, except when it's scorching hot. What ever happened to moderate climate? Show some moderation, you damn weather!). When I give myself away to someone as a present, that person may unwrap me. Mmmmm.

Oh, and if some random person started to unwrap the presents you intended for someone else, wouldn't that be rather rude?

[DiscoZombie]

This is why nudity is compulsary in my nation-states nation! :>

seriously though, I think areas that have nude beaches and such have it right.  it should be voluntary, at least some of the time.  However, nudity in the workplace and stuff would be a little distracting; would be a little hard to get things done... :>