The Third Hive

[BobTheJanitor]

I've noticed a trend on LM lately of getting two hives up for DC and MC and those useful second hive abilities, and then just rushing for the end game right then. Has anyone else noticed this? More often than not when I ask if anyone's got the third hive, no one speaks up, and no one seems to care one way or the other.

So I ask you, is the third hive really even worth it anymore? We can all pretty well agree that the third hive abilities are little more than amusing toys. By the time you can get that hive up the marines are teched up enough that your abilities are useless anyway. I mean, I'd take the second hive abilities over the third hive abilities ANY day. Meta, BB, leap, umbra, and stomp are all MUCH more useful than AR, web, xeno, primal, and charge will ever be. Kinda sad, isn't it? It seems that by waiting the extra time it takes to get the 3rd hive up, you're only allowing the marines extra turtle time to tech up further. And it's generally agreed, I believe, that hive 3 aliens are no match for top tech marines. The extra armor boost, while nice, is crap compared to level 3 weapons. And getting sens up? Let's be honest, unless it's your first chamber and you play it right, sensory is nothing more than a novelty. Focus actually makes it take longer to take down structures, which is your goal in end game. You can't cloak your way into MS, as they'll do doubt have an obs. The main use at that point is SoF, which is occasionally useful for catching the ramboing escapee. Or just drop some OCs in the hallways and keep an eye on the exits.

So my suggestion to aliens: Forget that 3rd hive. You don't need it. Time is much more important than a 3rd hive. Get the second one up and then rush before they can tech! Comments?

[Dirty Harry Potter]

I've seen that 2 hives can end the game, and yes the 3rd hive abilities ain't much - but sometimes they are necesary to stop a stalemate, SC upgrades can do much in battle.

this is my petty comment :p

[Geminosity]

to be honest I almost view the fact that the 3rd hive is viewed as a novelty as a base design flaw... but then again I also view the marines being able to shut down whole parts of the alien tech tree at no cost to their own development as one too.  It'd be more interesting if the marines actually had a reason other than making the alien's lives harder and of course for the ever-important res node usually near them but they don't.
For the aliens it's a fight for territory, for the marines it's really just a shooting match =/

Okies, sure so that fits with the general concept of how the 2 sides are supposed to be but I still find it lacking somehow.

[Uranium - 235]

Sensory Chamber - Good for finding that one last marine to kill, at least to me. We don't need no stinkin' cloak.

Xenocide - The ultimate ability, undoubtably the most useful third hive attack. The sad thing is, it really isn't that useful (Two xenos to kill 1 LA marine? What's this ^^?)

Web - Useful, but goofy crappy limit on it.

Primal Scream - Hahahahaha.

Acid Rocket - Hahahaha^2.

Charge - Probably a litte more useful then primal scream. But still a joke. I like using it with adreneline because it's like a one-shot celerity that lasts for a while... just don't run out of adren in the marine base...

[Dark]

if i'm on and the 3rd hive is empty i do try to drop it but that is just me although when i do drop it lord knows the game is almost over

[Sancho]

The reason no one puts up the third hive is because the aliens are trying to kill the marines before they start turtling, and it usually works.  Getting the third hive just gives them more time to get turrets up.

[BobTheJanitor]

Exactly Sancho. Third hive represents aliens reaching top base tech. They're not really at top tech until they have fades and onos and support lerks. However, a bunch of skulks at 3rd hive with no evolutions are top base tech.

The comparison is the marines reaching top base tech, which would be a group of LA marines with W3/A3, MT, Hand Nades (all of this they spawn with) and of course a comm ready to upgrade them to top top tech at a moment's notice. (which would be heavy weapons and HA or JP)

Clearly these two techs are horribly unbalanced, and that's just the base level. Look at the techs at hive two, however. Marines may or may not have an advanced armory, probably have a1 or 2 and w2 or 3. No proto yet, or else HA or JP are still researching. They still have painful shotguns, but at least they're not slinging death with tons of HMGs + nadespam. May not even have MT yet, depending on the route the comm is taking through the tech tree.

Then you have your hive two aliens. Probably some fades and maybe an early onos. Support lerks are ready with umbra and the skulks can leap into MS and cause a good deal of pain while the onos soaks the bullets. The fade's got meta so he can pull back and heal then be back into the action quickly. The onos has stomp spam to keep the marines in place while the base is chewed down. And the gorge can even make celerity runs into the base to sling some bile bombs into the mix. All in all, the aliens get a much better chance at winning if they rush the 2nd hive and make sure they have 3 DCs and MCs and then move in for the kill BEFORE the marines finish teching.

Yeah, it's ugly and unbalanced, but it's the way the game works currently, so it's something to keep in mind the next time you're trying to decide if you should drop the third hive or just go onos. Unless you're going to die immediately, another onos or fade is probably worth more than waiting and waiting for that third hive to get up before you mount your assault against high tech marines.

[devicenull]

Hm.. I think i bant the third hive awhile ago.. that might be a problem

thers no real reason for it, unless the marines have a huge turret farm

[Dark]

very true bob, but i drop the 3rd hive while everyone is attacking like a stealhy gorge should  :p

[Diablus]

DHP is correct the wayi  see it, hive 3 abilities suck, there only just little excessories that u can use as an option, xenocide pretty much sucks, charge isnt that great (only good for charge/devour and escaping quickly) acid rocket does like literally 10 hp per hit for as flayra quotes "More Fun" :blink: xenocide is only good for breaking up HA marines (by thern theres usually like 1 left, IF any) and nobody uses primal scream anymore its all umbra and bite. the way i see it, hive 3 should be end game for marines. It should be when marines have a 1 to 1000 chance of comming back without taking a crap load of damages. i mean for example charge and xenocide. a elephant charging at a few pochers aint gonna be "stopped dead in its tracks" from 1 of them for 8 seconds before they actually keel over and get crushed. a thing the size of a dog exploding shooting tons of bio shrapnel and bones sending u 50 ft away from the spot of explosion wont leave a person walking away firing a gun and hopping all around like a bunny. Hive 3 should be total mass massacre for marines seeing how aliens without an onos at hive 1 (actually EVEN with an onos) and theres a HA rush, that means end game for aliens.


Also id like to point out onos are lame how they get stopped dead in thier tracks when running (not charging) by a LA marine, onos should have a push factor to all lifeforms except HA and other onos (push factor as in, the <insert class here> gets moved along in front of the onos), ive also died many times from those damn skulks who get in ur way when ur tryng to fleee from low hp, im posting this here cause i know it wont be flamed, unreconized and beaten to the ground by the NS forumers, im not gonig to bother posting it in NS forums cause nobody will look except the CSplayer who wants awps and flashbangs in ns

[holy_devil]

3rd hive does the following:

gives adrenline wasting skills

makes armor absorb 90%(i believe) for aliens, which is VERY nice, especially if you onos

other than that, it may cause the 'now we donce' noise, and its one more hive marines have to siege to win.

basically: useless, good incase marines sneak a siege in so you have hive2 abils after that.

[BobTheJanitor]

So when we consider the all important time factor, it seems that we're in general agreement. If you can get to hive two while marines are still at mid tech, you're better off attacking then.

That's pretty sad! I want my balanced end game!

[a civilian]

makes armor absorb 90%(i believe) for aliens, which is VERY nice, especially if you onos

I don't believe additional hives increase armor absorption, simply because an increase to armor absorption would actually be disadvantageous, as it does little more than to lessen the effectiveness of mid-combat healing (that is, unless the absorption is 100%).

The armor-related benefit that additional hives do provide is to increase the amount of the damage absorbed by armor that is nullified by the armor.  With one hive, each armor point is worth 2 health points; with two hives, that number increases to 2.5, and with three hives, it is 3.

[Black Mage]

xeno is really the only usefull hive3 ability, and that only against la/jp

the 90% armor absorbtion is nice, but why wait for it when you can try end it quickly?

[SaltzBad]

The only reason I've seen for Hive3 is when the Aliens are still kept on their feet with marine offense, or in other words : Almost loosing. Hive3 instantly becomes important for a variety of reasons - the most prominent one being retaining your Hive2 abilities, without which you'd have a hard time breaking fortifications.

Next come the 2 most useful endgame abilities, Web and Acid Rocket. AR lets you take down turretfarms or any structure you can get a shot at. Web just makes the marines more vulnerable and unable to move out. PScream is probably closest to being pointless, as for anyone except the Lerk himself its too complex to activate in time, still get the Lerks umbra and bash a building all in those few seconds you have PS on. Charge on the other hand saves Onoses, so thats very handy.

And of course, Xenocide - its a horrible basebreaker, but it demoralizes well and can be very useful when defending from oncoming 'rines - after all you can spawn 3 skulks every 8 seconds, and launch them at their siegebase right outside your hive.

So while they're all a bit underpowered, except maybe webs, the roles they fill tend to be pretty useful.

[BobTheJanitor]

Negatory on the acid rocket: have you tried them lately? 25 dmg/shot with a slower rate of fire than gorge spit, which also does *DING* 25 dmg/shot. That's 52 shots to take down ONE turret. You put a fade in the line of fire of MS for the eternity it takes to fling 52 acid rockets, and you'll have one well ventilated fade carcass. Acid rockets simply are not base busters anymore. Sad, but true. Flayra "fixed" them, in order to make them "more fun".

Web is still useful, I'll give you that. The problem is that it's been cut down to something like 2 webs per map or something equally silly. You can barely web up MS with it, and it's useless once they weld, hand nade, GL, or just walk through it. (which is no trouble at all with some backup smart enough to cover you while you do it instead of blindly walking into the web also)

And the rest of the nerfed up hive three abilities... well BLAH. That's all I can say.

Edirt: Speelinng.

[Diablus]

i dont find any "fun" in using acid rocket i really have no clue what hes talking about, i think its just an annoyance to marines and annoying for fade from the adren cost

[Cold-NiTe]

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that the techtree is unbalanced.   <_<

[SaltzBad]

Base busters as in "they end the unbreakable turtle shell, sooner or later", Bob. Theres no other ranged weapon on such an effective/unbreakable vehicle as the Fade - he can easily fire into a turtling base, wear down the 'rines and force em to surround the armory and take down the turrets. Is it frustratingly, no enragingly slow and pathetic? Yeah. Is it a vital role? Hell yeah, unless you get good Umbra+Onos teams.

And yes, I've tried them lately. You almost have to bind +attack to a key (without the minus :p) to not go crazy taking out turrets that way, but its sometimes the only way on pubs :/

On the web-limit I agree. Its idiotic, especially since you can't destroy surplus webs.

Just as a random bit of extra information : It recently dawned on me that while Xeno wasn't directly nerfed, it was very clearly proxy-nerfed. After all, a marine has 150 to 270 hitpoints now - but xenocide remains at what, 188? It definitely needs a) blast damage back and B) about ~250-260 damage (able to take out level 1/2 armor in one direct hit), just to remain on the same level as previous xenocide levels (although I forgot what armor did back then, as I was never an active NS1/2 player - but having just played it once or twice, it felt like diddly squat). For co_, just have it toss you in a punitive spawn queue - like you'll only go from DEAD to REIN on your 2nd chance. Lame, but works.

Totally irrelevant information:
Level 1 HA vs Xenocide - 560hp vs 188/blast. 3 direct Xenocide hits - Xeno can't be done in groups, since Knockback will affect teammates alot (Sorry Bob ^^). You'll also be having to aim that thing carefully enough to score a direct hit - vs a group of HMG/HAs and pick out the right guy. Before they weld.

Its still a 3-blast minimum under my new suggestion - but partials obviously do more with the increased damage, and in that case only 560 out of 750 damage is required (Instead of 560 out of 564, an extremely low margin for error).


Anyway, agreed. Most of em suck ass. Charge is sweet though, just not used as intended.

[a civilian]

Just as a random bit of extra information : It recently dawned on me that while Xeno wasn't directly nerfed, it was very clearly proxy-nerfed. After all, a marine has 150 to 270 hitpoints now - but xenocide remains at what, 188? It definitely needs a) blast damage back and B) about ~250-260 damage (able to take out level 1/2 armor in one direct hit), just to remain on the same level as previous xenocide levels (although I forgot what armor did back then, as I was never an active NS1/2 player - but having just played it once or twice, it felt like diddly squat).

Marine effective health in previous versions was 143, 167, 200, and 250, at armor levels 0, 1, 2, and 3, respectively.  In 3.0 it is now 150, 190, 230, and 270.  Thus it seems that the primary effect the armor system change had on xenocide is that previously it could kill armor 1 marines with ease, whereas now it must make a direct hit (xenocide does 200 damage with a direct hit).