Author Topic: Pressure Control  (Read 4772 times)

May 25, 2005, 10:02:49 PM
Reply #20

CryForMe

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well although I cant provide clarification on the matter, I can relate a situation that happened today. it was on veil. Aliens had one hive. No higher lifeforms and all of the aliens dead. Rines marched into pipeline (our hive), with heavies, lv 3 armor, lv 3 hmgs. Full team. But instead of walking in and killing the hive, 5 of them walked in and shot nothing but skulks who were spawning...for 3 minutes. Now, during this time, one person set up a siege point outside on the stairs.  We were spawning one at a time, as is the process with one hive, and dying instantly from a hail of hmg fire.

Is this spawncamping? According to the way some people would have it, no. However, i believe it more than qualifies. For 3 minutes, a vastly superior force sat in the hive and gunned down other players who had no chance, while they just drug it out by setting up a siege (which they never really used by the way. Once the sieges were built, they fired one volley before the rines let loose on the hive with hmgs. It dropped in less than 10 seconds). To me, thats just ridiculous. In addition, they set up mines in the hive. When they were broached on breaking the rules, one player (and a reg at that) responded with "who cares, you guys were gonna lose anyway".  

The point isnt whether the aliens were going to lose or not. The point is twofold:
1.) Its against the rules. Period. If you're a reg and you know the rules, theres NO EXCUSE for breaking them.
2.) The game is supposed to be fun. Thats the point of it being a GAME. Watching yourself helplessly die 10 times while rines sit there and laugh because they have you pinned down and want to wallow in their superiority isnt fun. And it's certainly no excuse for prolonging a game.

I'll break it down plain and simple based on the way I play. To me, either you're spawncamping or you have an active role in taking down spawn. If im a marine and my team moves into a hive, i do one of two things: I build, or i move into the hive and kill the aliens. Once all the aliens are dead, depending on what the team is doing, i do one of two further things: if its a shotgun/lmg/hmg rush, i shoot the crap out of the hive and then the chambers and RT. If its a siege, i'll fall back to provide cover for my team and help them build. People who say they're "giving cover" for a team thats building a siege point by sitting in the aliens last hive and killing anything that spawns within 3 seconds of it spawning are SPAWNCAMPERS. You might as well be there alone, because your team is doing something else and you're nowhere near them.

Bottom line is that if you have a superior force, such as a full team of HA/HMG and the entire other team is skulks, dont friggin siege the last hive. Once all the aliens are dead, KILL THE HIVE. I gurantee you that 4 marines with ha/hmg can take down a hive before 2 skulks spawn. Maybe you lose 1 heavy there, but oh well, the game is over and we can all move on. Just dont drag it out because you want to feel full of yourself. People who comm a lot should wise up to this too and instruct your team accordingly (and if they dont listen, make them pay by continuously beaconing them until they do what theyre supposed to).
"What do I do first when I comm?"-NSPlayer(2)
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May 26, 2005, 10:25:35 AM
Reply #21

lolfighter

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The issue with spawncamping has always been twofold:

Llama spawncamping (as we like to call it), where a vastly superior team just keeps killing spawning players without ever touching the IP or hive. It's completely unnecessary prolonging of the game. Doesn't serve any purpose at all - it's just the winning team lording it over the losing, which is very poor sportsmanship. CryForMe has a very good example of llama spawncamping in the post above mine.

On the other hand is spawncamping in small numbers, which is more of an issue when marines spawncamp the aliens than the other way around. A single marine with good aim and resupply from the commander can spawncamp skulks indefinitely. The skulk is unlikely to spawn right next to the rine (particularly if the rine knows the spawn spots), and the rine has the range advantage. So the rine can spawncamp the aliens effectively, yet at the same time a single rine can't both spawncamp AND take down the hive at the same (or only VERY slowly). This leads to very boring games in which a single marine keeps the entire alien team in the spawn queue while the rest gets their act together to take down the hive, which can take several minutes and is a very agonizing process if you just have to watch it from the spawn queue.


That's why we have the rule against spawncamping, and that's how we enforce it. It would be pretty set in stone too if everybody would abide by the spirit of the law instead of the letter, but there are always some that try to bend the rules, so we have to interpret them accordingly. Altruism is not dead - it never really lived at all. We're not flawless, and it'd be unfair to demand that of us, and mistakes have been made in the past and will be made in the future, but we're doing our best here, we really are.

And finally, spawncamping for a clear, realistic objective has always been allowed. Spawncamping is a necessary part of taking down a hive or IP (unless nobody is spawning from it), that's just how it is. So spawncamping is fine as long as the spawning device is going down in a timely fashion.

May 26, 2005, 11:55:03 AM
Reply #22

aeroripper

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well although I cant provide clarification on the matter, I can relate a situation that happened today. it was on veil. Aliens had one hive. No higher lifeforms and all of the aliens dead. Rines marched into pipeline (our hive), with heavies, lv 3 armor, lv 3 hmgs. Full team. But instead of walking in and killing the hive, 5 of them walked in and shot nothing but skulks who were spawning...for 3 minutes. Now, during this time, one person set up a siege point outside on the stairs. We were spawning one at a time, as is the process with one hive, and dying instantly from a hail of hmg fire.

Is this spawncamping? According to the way some people would have it, no. However, i believe it more than qualifies. For 3 minutes, a vastly superior force sat in the hive and gunned down other players who had no chance, while they just drug it out by setting up a siege (which they never really used by the way. Once the sieges were built, they fired one volley before the rines let loose on the hive with hmgs. It dropped in less than 10 seconds). To me, thats just ridiculous. In addition, they set up mines in the hive. When they were broached on breaking the rules, one player (and a reg at that) responded with "who cares, you guys were gonna lose anyway".

The point isnt whether the aliens were going to lose or not. The point is twofold:
1.) Its against the rules. Period. If you're a reg and you know the rules, theres NO EXCUSE for breaking them.
2.) The game is supposed to be fun. Thats the point of it being a GAME. Watching yourself helplessly die 10 times while rines sit there and laugh because they have you pinned down and want to wallow in their superiority isnt fun. And it's certainly no excuse for prolonging a game.

I'll break it down plain and simple based on the way I play. To me, either you're spawncamping or you have an active role in taking down spawn. If im a marine and my team moves into a hive, i do one of two things: I build, or i move into the hive and kill the aliens. Once all the aliens are dead, depending on what the team is doing, i do one of two further things: if its a shotgun/lmg/hmg rush, i shoot the crap out of the hive and then the chambers and RT. If its a siege, i'll fall back to provide cover for my team and help them build. People who say they're "giving cover" for a team thats building a siege point by sitting in the aliens last hive and killing anything that spawns within 3 seconds of it spawning are SPAWNCAMPERS. You might as well be there alone, because your team is doing something else and you're nowhere near them.

Bottom line is that if you have a superior force, such as a full team of HA/HMG and the entire other team is skulks, dont friggin siege the last hive. Once all the aliens are dead, KILL THE HIVE. I gurantee you that 4 marines with ha/hmg can take down a hive before 2 skulks spawn. Maybe you lose 1 heavy there, but oh well, the game is over and we can all move on. Just dont drag it out because you want to feel full of yourself. People who comm a lot should wise up to this too and instruct your team accordingly (and if they dont listen, make them pay by continuously beaconing them until they do what theyre supposed to).

Yes i remember because i was comming that game.  I specifically told the team that placing mines in the hive is against the rules and the guy who did it said "well that's a stupid rule" so he wasn't listening anyways.  Also about sieging that hive i thought the alien team had more fades and OCs in there because there was two on the way into the hive and i told everybody to build the TF but i didn't know that the whole alien team was already dead (i wasn't checking the scoreboard like i'm sure everyone on the alien team was because i was concentrating on taking it down). So people started walking in anyways although i told them to build the TF so we could siege it was already out of my control.

I was just taking a precaution getting the sieges up because i've had games where they actually fought back in their last hive and killed everybody even with a few heavy armors and hmgs.  I don't encourage spawn camping and i already apologized for this and will keep it in mind if it happens again.

Honestly i think spawn camping is a little vague sometimes because we were setting up sieges to kill a hive so we had a goal rather than "lets just spawncamp everybody just to make them mad".  Sieges WERE going up to kill the hive and we were concentrating on killing it.

Quote
1. Spawncamping is not allowed.
This server promotes a team environment that is competitive and also enjoyable. We want all players to enjoy the experience, and feel spawncamping detracts from that. Spawncamping includes, but is not limited to:
o Killing players as they spawn for rfk, stat whoring, or any other reason besides an active assault on hive/CC.
o Routinely pressing the hive location/marine spawn for the specific purpose of killing spawning players, otherwise know as a "Drive by".
o Placing mines in an active hive or building hive is not allowed, period.
o If you are pressuring the hive/MS to end the game, do not camp the entrances and kill them as they come out, without moving in. Although you are not IN the spawn area, denying the team any chance of defense while blocking spawn exits will be considered spawncamping without adequate pressure to kill the hive/MS.

The last bullet in the rules, we were providing pressure to kill the hive because sieges were going up and firing.  Marines were shooting the hive among attacking skulks.  Even if everybody walked in without sieges and were trying to kill the hive, would people still complain about spawn camping because they were mad their hive was going down and they got killed in the hail of gunfire?  I've seen it plenty of times when the other team is accused of spawn camping when their just trying to kill the hive and the aliens are just mad about it.

Quote
Bottom line is that if you have a superior force, such as a full team of HA/HMG and the entire other team is skulks, dont friggin siege the last hive. Once all the aliens are dead, KILL THE HIVE. I gurantee you that 4 marines with ha/hmg can take down a hive before 2 skulks spawn. Maybe you lose 1 heavy there, but oh well, the game is over and we can all move on. Just dont drag it out because you want to feel full of yourself.

I was not feeling "full" of myself but i wanted to make sure that if they killed my marines in the hive we could still siege it and probably bring it down.  It's happened before and that's why i built the siege.

And i don't appreciate being yelled at saying "SPAWNING CAMPING OMG I HAVE A DEMO!" because its just dumb.  I would rather you come on the forums and post your feelings on what happened here with me rather than yelling about it. I respect the rules here and this server is awesome but some things are out of my control as comm.  Some people just do not want to listen (like the guy who said hive mining was a stupid rule) and don't really care about the rules because they can just go to another server.

Quote
And finally, spawncamping for a clear, realistic objective has always been allowed. Spawncamping is a necessary part of taking down a hive or IP (unless nobody is spawning from it), that's just how it is. So spawncamping is fine as long as the spawning device is going down in a timely fashion.

We were sieging AND shooting the hive among attacking aliens.  I didn't just tell a couple of guys "hey go kill the spawning skulks alone to keep them from escaping".  Then a few minutes later i have other people come with hvys to finish it... that would definitely be spawn camping.  And as far as saying 3 minutes went by in this ordeal i would like to see the demo because it seemed to happen a whole lot faster from my perspective as comm.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 12:10:48 PM by aeroripper »

May 26, 2005, 03:28:05 PM
Reply #23

CryForMe

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aero, i wasnt blaming you at all. you cant control the team from the comm chair, nor were you any part of the spawncamping. so dont take it as an affront. you've become quite a good comm and with a proper team, these things dont happen. you just got stuck with some bad eggs that game.
however, having both been in that game, i can tell you that the alien team was dead  with no more than 1 skulk alive at any given time, and not a single bullet hit the hive or any chamber in the hive for 2:39 (i recorded a demo, not specifically of the spawncamping, but of my entire performance that game because im trying to improve my skills a bit). almost three minutes of spawncamping while one rine built a siege and the rest camped...doing nothing to end the game.
so like i said, you hold none of the blame aero. the blame rests on the shoulders of your teammates who completely ignored the rules for their own amusement.
but oh well.
i think we've all got the spawncamping issue figured out by now.
if youre camping a spawn point and actively destroying said point, fine.
if youre camping a spawn point and occasionally hitting the hive by stray bullet fire, you're breaking the rules.
simple.
"What do I do first when I comm?"-NSPlayer(2)
"You need to build an RTFM interface."-CFM

May 26, 2005, 04:19:31 PM
Reply #24

Absinthe

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I was there for that game on the alien side as well. We were being spawn camped and mine dodging long before the TF was ever dropped (IIRC it was back entrance not stairway). The guy who was laying down mines in the hive wasn’t a reg (aware of the rule) and he was warned about it, so we can’t really do much about that. The whole team was pretty much outfitted with HA and none of us could spawn and move because of them being camped out against the walls, and not one person was shooting the hive. Not only is that spawn camping but also VERY lame behavior. Games should under no circumstances be dragged out when one side clearly has a dominant advantage and can end the game at will, that was my real beef with the game in particular. There are exceptions if the other team is making it very difficult (ie MS camp with HMGs, 3+ IPs [need a rule about this], random hiding spots), and even then most people don’t appreciate those things. I know aeroripper was comm. that game and I mentioned it to him after the fact to make sure that from now on he pays attention to rather LARGE details like our whole deceased team.

This isn’t exactly a solution to the problem, but it discourages lame behavior. As a comm. you’ve got lots of responsibilities, when you play on LM you have additional responsibilities to your already overwhelming job. It is your job to inform your team if they are breaking server rules. You can be well aware of the activities your teammates are up to (spawn camping, mine placement) simply by looking at your minimap. Do not med / ammo spam any marine who is camping a hive, I’ve seen it done before and that means two people were involved in the rule infraction. When you drop mines to a non-regular or leave them on the floor for anyone, make sure you clarify its intended purpose. This is not a difficult task, most good comms will do this anyways by saying “mines on pg, mines on ip, etc.” If you are seiging a hive and you’ve placed the pg within the hive, be well aware of where those mines have been planted. FF is on as many know, and mines CAN be marine detonated by shooting them. If you make a mistake, or someone else does and you notice it, you can remedy the situation by simply destroying the misplaced mines. Now, that doesn’t mean waiting for a skulk to run at you and then detonating it when he’s in range (although that would be funny as hell and I’d give you a high-5!!).
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

May 26, 2005, 05:01:36 PM
Reply #25

Absinthe

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The issue with spawncamping has always been twofold:

Llama spawncamping (as we like to call it), where a vastly superior team just keeps killing spawning players without ever touching the IP or hive. It's completely unnecessary prolonging of the game. Doesn't serve any purpose at all - it's just the winning team lording it over the losing, which is very poor sportsmanship. CryForMe has a very good example of llama spawncamping in the post above mine.

On the other hand is spawncamping in small numbers, which is more of an issue when marines spawncamp the aliens than the other way around. A single marine with good aim and resupply from the commander can spawncamp skulks indefinitely. The skulk is unlikely to spawn right next to the rine (particularly if the rine knows the spawn spots), and the rine has the range advantage. So the rine can spawncamp the aliens effectively, yet at the same time a single rine can't both spawncamp AND take down the hive at the same (or only VERY slowly). This leads to very boring games in which a single marine keeps the entire alien team in the spawn queue while the rest gets their act together to take down the hive, which can take several minutes and is a very agonizing process if you just have to watch it from the spawn queue.


That's why we have the rule against spawncamping, and that's how we enforce it. It would be pretty set in stone too if everybody would abide by the spirit of the law instead of the letter, but there are always some that try to bend the rules, so we have to interpret them accordingly. Altruism is not dead - it never really lived at all. We're not flawless, and it'd be unfair to demand that of us, and mistakes have been made in the past and will be made in the future, but we're doing our best here, we really are.

And finally, spawncamping for a clear, realistic objective has always been allowed. Spawncamping is a necessary part of taking down a hive or IP (unless nobody is spawning from it), that's just how it is. So spawncamping is fine as long as the spawning device is going down in a timely fashion.
[snapback]49549[/snapback]

Ok, we've strayed from the original post of Pressure hive to this other Veil story which although it's similar, are two totally different circumstances. The game on pressure was not as simple as "they could've shot the hive and taken it down before 2 skulks spawned". That was more of a "had they not spawn camped, we'd have probably wiped out their 'siege attempt'." I had enough res to go Lerk at least, might have changed the tide of the game who knows. The point is, spawncamping gave them the advantage they needed to win that game.

Regardless of that, ICECREAM could've said he was spawncamping for a realistic objective, in fact he was. Since when is killing enemy units to minimize the oppositions strength and gaining res for your team not an objective? Based on your post lolfighter, and I assume you're speaking on behalf of all admins, I'm under the impression that everything he did was legal (as lame as it seemed at the time).

I'm trying not to seem like an stuborn jackass here and that's hard. Getting clarification on these issues requires that I pretty much have to pester an admin for each questionable situation that arises. I'm sure this isn't the last time it will come up either. And all that spirit and letter crap aside, there are people (like myself) who want/need to know that fine line between legal and illegal. Not because we want to walk that line and test it from time to time (although that happens with any rule), but because arbitrary rules like these can hinder a competent players performance. For example, the only reason I said that ICECREAM's action was lame was because of my understanding of the server rules at that time. Now that you've cleared up those misconceptions, I'm quite fine with it and relieved to know what I can do in a situation like that. Nothing is worse than gray area in the heat of the moment, especially when it could mean being banned from the server.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

May 27, 2005, 11:50:05 AM
Reply #26

lolfighter

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Well, I guess I should have said it this way: Spawncamping for a clear, realistic and valid objective. I know this is rather uneasy ground I'm treading on and no, I'm not speaking for all admins, I'm speaking for myself here because that's all I am comfortable with doing.
I do not consider spawncamping the hive all on your own to get rfk and keep the enemy team in the spawnqueue instead of roaming the map acceptable. It's a clear and realistic objective, I concede that: You get rfk and keep the enemy team dead. Perfectly clear and realistic. That's why I'll have to say that it's simply not valid because of how it just spoils the fun, for the aliens in particular. It's an effective tactic and it is in no way cheating or exploiting, but it is still damaging to the game and thus the server, and therefore we outlaw it.
But I tend to work with warnings only (as long as people listen to them) because it's just such a complicated issue.

May 27, 2005, 12:56:57 PM
Reply #27

^Zunni^

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Well if its a map problem, why not make a thread asking for it to be taken out of the cycle? I mean, since its causing so much of a problem.
[snapback]49299[/snapback]

Or even better, I'd assume since you guys are having such an issue with it, others are as well.. How about a "please fix this portion of the map" thread on ns.com that way it gets fixed , the mapper gets some much needed feedback and you don't have to remove the map at all :)

^Zunni^ (Lead, Intelligent Design Team)

May 27, 2005, 01:07:05 PM
Reply #28

Niteowl

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Some valid reasons to spawncamp. A reasonable number (up to admins discretion), for me, that would be about 4 or 5 are:
-going in with a blaze of gunfire AND shooting the hive.
-are rampaging in there to eliminate upgrade chambers/RT
-take down an egg


Uhm, that's pretty much it. Spawncamping to reap the benefits that spawncamping itself affords is not reasonable (increase spawncue, keep them dead, rfk, etc).
"I don't have to know an answer, I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me."
-Richard Feynman

May 27, 2005, 01:36:06 PM
Reply #29

BobTheJanitor

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Or even better, I'd assume since you guys are having such an issue with it, others are as well.. How about a "please fix this portion of the map" thread on ns.com that way it gets fixed , the mapper gets some much needed feedback and you don't have to remove the map at all :)
This mysterious stranger speaks words of wisdom!
« Last Edit: May 27, 2005, 01:36:21 PM by BobTheJanitor »

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May 27, 2005, 08:11:03 PM
Reply #30

Necrosis

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See, what starts out as my sarcasm ends up as a useful insight. Soon I will be chief dev of NS, and we shall implement little bunny skulks because thats what the marines least expect. Then, the comfy chair!!
Necrosis killed Holy_Devil with pistol
Holy_Devil: cheater