the problem

[Necrosis]

I hate to break it to ya kids, but the grey area should ALWAYS favour the spirit of the rules.

The spirit of the rules are NO SPAWNCAMPING.

Therefore, any grey areas will ALWAYS favour NO SPAWNCAMPING.

Its rather unfortunate that IN THIS CASE it happens to favour aliens, but such is life.




Nodeblocks are a pain in the arse but are fairly infrequent, and certainly not as game damaging as spamming the spawn points with mines and shotgun wielding marines on spawncamp detail.

[Iconoclast]

mines< a good marine with a shotgun.

[snapback]49614[/snapback]

I'd rather plop down an hmg or gl to kill the aliens that mc over.

[SwiftSpear]

I hate to break it to ya kids, but the grey area should ALWAYS favour the spirit of the rules.

The spirit of the rules are NO SPAWNCAMPING.

Therefore, any grey areas will ALWAYS favour NO SPAWNCAMPING.

Its rather unfortunate that IN THIS CASE it happens to favour aliens, but such is life.




Nodeblocks are a pain in the arse but are fairly infrequent, and certainly not as game damaging as spamming the spawn points with mines and shotgun wielding marines on spawncamp detail.

[snapback]49660[/snapback]

No spawn camping IS the rule.  The spirt of that rule is to protect the fun of the game.  Fun > rules.

Granted things have to be conceded some times for a good rule to work.  I'm arguing that the gains are not worth the costs.  I think the countering of MC rushes is large enough a problem to consider the occational administrative trouble of dealing with a player who pushes the letter of the law just because they can.  Dissagree with me fine, for all I know you have the greater experiance standpoint on the matter, as I have never been an admin and never had to deal with such problems.  But I don't apreciate you attempting to end with circular logic stating that the rules justify themselfs simply by existing.

When Mhawk was node blocking we didn't lose a single game.  This is definitely partially do to players who responded with innapropriate counters to the strat (running off elsewhere) but a good node block goes a LONG way, expecially against pub teams who don't know the counters.  For future referance in case you encounter this anywhere, just have a skulk bite down the node.  Unbuilt nodes take half as long to take down as built nodes, and can be bitten to death in less then one recycling cycle.

[Necrosis]

That would be something for the admin team to comment on.

However, from purely LM experience, when the rules had been clarified and defined, people used the definitions as excuse for llama behaviour. "The rules didnt say that" or "The rules said not in the hive, and I wasnt in the hive, I was just outside looking in" or any one of a hundred variations on the above.

Hence, I imagine, why we went back to the tried and tested NO SPAWNCAMPING method. That way noone can really fiddle the system, and people behave theirselves a bit more.

MC rapid response is a problem, but one I think that the changing of FF should help.

Ultimately tho you have to consider that, from the sounds of it, MC are going to eventually allow transport anywhere, so best to stick with the current method because ultimately its going to end up the official one. If MCs were NOT going to allow you to transport to the building hive, then I would support a FF switch. If spawn positions were really truly random I would also support a "mines are ok" campaign. But the game isnt going to be that way, so everyone is going to have to learn to take hives without clogging them with autospawncampers.

[SwiftSpear]

That would be something for the admin team to comment on.

However, from purely LM experience, when the rules had been clarified and defined, people used the definitions as excuse for llama behaviour. "The rules didnt say that" or "The rules said not in the hive, and I wasnt in the hive, I was just outside looking in" or any one of a hundred variations on the above.

Hence, I imagine, why we went back to the tried and tested NO SPAWNCAMPING method. That way noone can really fiddle the system, and people behave theirselves a bit more.

MC rapid response is a problem, but one I think that the changing of FF should help.

Ultimately tho you have to consider that, from the sounds of it, MC are going to eventually allow transport anywhere, so best to stick with the current method because ultimately its going to end up the official one. If MCs were NOT going to allow you to transport to the building hive, then I would support a FF switch. If spawn positions were really truly random I would also support a "mines are ok" campaign. But the game isnt going to be that way, so everyone is going to have to learn to take hives without clogging them with autospawncampers.

[snapback]49757[/snapback]

As already noted, Building hives will be warpable too in 3.1 weather or not the server is running FF.

[Mr.Ben]

Where did that change come from? Changelog released or something?

[SwiftSpear]

Where did that change come from? Changelog released or something?

[snapback]49780[/snapback]

Zunni stated it on the LM forums somewhere...

[Mr.Ben]

yes but it wasn't confirmed, just looked that way.

[Necrosis]

As already noted, Building hives will be warpable too in 3.1 weather or not the server is running FF.

Exactly my point. People are going to have to cope with not being able to use mines, or somehow suddenly become trustworthy enough to warrant support for a "no mines in BUILT hives" policy.

It may not be "confirmed" but if thats the way things are looking, then we should be using it as the basis for progress.

[mhawk]

it still doesn't make sense why you just dont add the invulnerable plug in like many other servers, mainly because your rule goes beyond no mines, but also includes no spawn killing.  This would solve both problems nearly instantly, while still offering decent counter to mc rushes.

[RangerAlpha]

The general consensus(spelled so incorrectly) is that the marines are slow in early game, cuz they have to build base, hump armory cuz they need infinity bullets... etc...   Obviously these problems are what need to be attacked.  If marines blast the gorge to bits before he drops the hive because they managed to get a squad there 5 seconds earlier, well, theres is no hive, hence no mc ownage shall occur.  So, how to go about doing this.  My thinking was that the first ip could build instantly, or something.  I only foresee one problem with this, being relocates are slightly faster, but hey, i like relocates.  And anyways, its not like the comm chair doesnt take 45 years to build, you should get a reward.  For all i care, you could even offset it by making comm chair take LONGER to build, i mean. i really want the marines to move out faster, and nothing else.  However, this probably is harder to code than the next solution, which is generally better.

       We could go the other way and just give the marines an ip, i mean, the aliens get a spawn point, the marines should too.  This would be a significant advantage even if the marines were docked 20 res because of the free building.  This change, would fix the "marines are too slow" problem admirably, not really affect balance in any way except "marines move out faster"  which we like, because right now, aliens get this 30-45 second grace period where marines really arent doing anything but running around in base.  Now, early game will involve both marines and aliens, instead of just aliens building stuff and marines sitting there.  I still like my decrease rt hp thing, because those darned rts really need to die better.[/RangarSpamFTW!]

Granted, this free ip should be in a generally decent spot, which, could cause some nasty "Crappy ip placement ftl" spam, but, whatever, the complainers will always complain about something.

[randomrant]One thing i always hated was that for every building, except hives, some sort of work needs to occur to build it, if you want it to build in a reasonable period of time,  hives are just drop n leave, which i dislike.  but, i thats not really important. [/randomrant]

[mhawk]

I think marines starting with full ammo at start of round, would do just about the same thing as you want, but would work much better.  Then as you spawn in, you start with barely any ammo.  This would make marines dominate the early game, but back to topic of mines.  Invuln Plugin.

[RangerAlpha]

I think marines starting with full ammo at start of round, would do just about the same thing as you want, but would work much better.  Then as you spawn in, you start with barely any ammo.  This would make marines dominate the early game, but back to topic of mines.  Invuln Plugin.

[snapback]49821[/snapback]

I thought about that idea too, but thats a fairly significant marine boost.  Actually not a bad idea though, and probably easier to do/not get whined about.  Anything that makes mines better, i want, cuz i love mines.   Mines mines mines.

Oh, only legal invuln plugin value is .5 seconds. trust me, any more and you can kill a marine while invul, which pisses them off.

[EvilLinkz]

.5 seconds invul works for me, I've been on servers with 1.0 seconds and of course the marines are facing the wrath of an invincible skulk.

Also with marines instant building IPs? Maybe NS should balance itself out and have a comm chair and IP ready-built, like the aliens have a ready built Hive+Spawn.

[Zombies and Robots]

I hate to break it to ya kids, but the grey area should ALWAYS favour the spirit of the rules.

The spirit of the rules are NO SPAWNCAMPING.

Therefore, any grey areas will ALWAYS favour NO SPAWNCAMPING.

Its rather unfortunate that IN THIS CASE it happens to favour aliens, but such is life.




Nodeblocks are a pain in the arse but are fairly infrequent, and certainly not as game damaging as spamming the spawn points with mines and shotgun wielding marines on spawncamp detail.

[snapback]49660[/snapback]

This rule actualy makes the game a bit unbalenced.  What if I am in an alien hive wating for a phase gate?  Should I just let the aliens spawn and eat me?

I don't agree with the "I'll go into the hive and rack up kills" spawn camping on public servers, though.  I do think that in situations like the one I stated above should be treated differently than normal spawncamping.

[Mr.Ben]

I was temp banned for "spawn camping." Whilst my team assualted the building in cargo, i went to the active hive in pipeline. See there are two ways to handle MC'ing aliens, you control the hive room with mines and just destroy the aliens as they come in which can be somewhat problematic. Or, you stop them MC'ing. A single bullet into the hive stops aliens defending cargo, the unlucky skulks who happened to spawn near me or try and rush me from the other side of pipeline died.

Oh and i killed their hive RT. We won. IMO that's not lame or whatever you want to call it, that's good thinking and efficient playing.

[Necrosis]

Of course by the same token, me going to your house and putting a few shotgun rounds into you and/or your PC is a brilliant piece of logical reasoning and a master stroke in terms of countering your playing ability.

Mind you, you probably won't be saying that.






In much the same way, CC blocking and spawncamping might be "brilliant" strategies, but they're not really all that fun to be on the receiving end of, and its largely against the spirit of the game. Come in and shoot the hive and its defenders by all means, but dont camp for kills just to pass time waiting for 6 sieges to be built and covered by an elec tfac.


Now, the example of hitting the second hive is perfectly fine, naturally of course assuming the honourable intention of attacking the hive, as opposed to wiping out spawning aliens. Its a fine line, but there we have it. TBH I'd rather have the current method that relies on PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY as opposed to resorting to invulnerable spawn, which will do a fine job of making hives even harder to take.

The example of waiting for a phase gate... depends. If you're rushing into the hive then yelling like a nub for a PG, then camp all round you, then you're spawncamping. If the comm sent you there, then you're on a mission that WILL involve an attempt to drop a PG. Further, should the comm drop a PG, you WILL be trying to build it, and its tricky to build a PG and mow down skulks at the same time. If the comm meds you enough, and you're a good shot, then the PG will go up and all going well 5 more marines will bale in with SGs and it'll be hiveburgers for everyone.

So, in a nutshell, there on official business is good, there because you're going to whine for stuff while camping aliens is BAD.

[Mr.Ben]

olol and after you shoot my PC do you make more retarded retorts or are you done?

[SlickWill]

I nominate Necrosis for the most prolific poster with the longest and most pointless and most worthless threads and thank God he's not on my debate team award.  (If I was on debate team.)


Edit:  I mean that in the nicest most unmean way.

[2_of_8]

Spawn invulnerability is a horrible, horrible plugin. It makes assaulting hives pretty much impossible, forcing a siege... bad.