Author Topic: Give this guy a cookie.  (Read 9087 times)

March 13, 2005, 05:52:19 PM
Reply #20

Necrosis

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Every thread on UWE descends into this.

Its pro/anti scripting, clanners v pubbers, server v server, or any combination thereof.
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March 13, 2005, 06:00:05 PM
Reply #21

Manta

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I agree with this guy that clanners can be arrogant. However, this does not only apply to clanners. Anyone can be an egotistic idiot.

It's when they show their arrogance, when their fragile egos are hurt, that it becomes a problem. To quote one person who shall remain unnamed, "Wtf, you're bs. I'm pro and I know you, you used to ba newb."

EDIT: Upon re-reading the post, it appears that he's not referring to clanners specifically. Just people with big egos.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2005, 06:01:29 PM by Manta »

March 13, 2005, 07:13:22 PM
Reply #22

Dark

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as true as that is most of the people with the huge egos are ultimately clanners who think their cal whatever experience makes them god of ns or such

yes i know that a lot of them are that good but having their ego hurt then to see them go off on some other tangent is just ridiculous
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March 15, 2005, 12:27:54 PM
Reply #23

That Annoying Kid

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I really want to find the thread that post was in.

It sums up the main argument against competitive players very nicely.
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March 15, 2005, 01:51:25 PM
Reply #24

Malevolent

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Search for the user Poofle (or whatever his name was), and view all his posts. He doesn't have that many so it'll be easy to spot.
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March 15, 2005, 05:47:59 PM
Reply #25

CorvusX

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I will be doing a report for English class on competitive gaming, and it's effects on the player/community as a whole.  For that, I will need interviews as a source.

Any who wish to contribute to it, just pm me in IRC or on forums, or email me, even.

I do agree with Poofle, and he does deserve a cookie. :p

March 16, 2005, 05:10:51 AM
Reply #26

JohnTheGarbageman

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Not to overly victimize competitive players - but this perception stems mostly from a sore losers mindset, usually trying to find and point out fault. If you play a very average game, nobody will bust out a magnifying glass and analyse all the things you say and do with a gigantic negative predisposition. However, dominate a few rounds - and you can be saying nothing at all, you'll be perceived as insufferably arrogant.

But polemic arguments like these and sweeping generalizations based on under-analysed perceptions are after all what keeps that healthy friction between communitys going, so who am I to complain about it?

The worst thing you could maybe say about every competitive player without being incorrect is that playing above an average skill-level would be impolite. But thats hard to change - not like playing Chess with your little brother, where you can just lose to make him feel better ;)

March 16, 2005, 10:19:05 AM
Reply #27

Necrosis

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I've come across far too many hypocritical clans to have time for the scene anymore.

When I was back playing TIE Fighter, it interested me because it meant teamplay. When I started playing AvP and AvP2 online heavily, I just saw tards. When I finally dug out my copy of halflife and started trying TFC, Firearms, etc, it was just a vocal minority who claimed to know better than every other player.


Its not one large leap, its little steps... the next thing you know you're on two different continents.
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Holy_Devil: cheater

March 16, 2005, 01:56:11 PM
Reply #28

Keyser59

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I'm pretty sure that thread existed for the clanners that got banned from servers without saying a word. Yeah, there the few who go on a server and light up the place with their trashtalking, but then there are those who don't

Believe me, you don't have to act like a smacktard to be banned.

March 16, 2005, 04:53:42 PM
Reply #29

Necrosis

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If I was harassing a server by wiping the floor with all players, all the time, then to be honest I'd probably deserve a ban.

Those people have just as much right to a game as I do. Thats why when I last went to my old old "whenever LM is slotting me" server, I lasted long enough to top the scoreboard, then left. No challenge at all, and challenge is why I play online. I have a PS2 and a variety of old PC games for when I just want to spin my wheels mass murdering people.


EDIT -

Yes, I would ban for skill. When I was running tabletop games I tried to keep it fair for all concerned, noone likes an arrogant git coming in and thrashing people just to improve his perception of his genitalia.

I have had to say to people "these are kids, they don't understand the game as well, and you're just ruining it for them". By the same standard, I would ask someone not to come back to a server if they were seriously disrupting play.

We have good players on LM, and thankfully they're all mortal, or decent enough to tinker with other roles than "butt kicker". Asshats however just come on to pwn the noobs and get a good K:D. I call it griefing, I would kick them off the server if they didn't tone it down, and I'd be perfectly public about it.

If a person's only way to feel good is to bully others, they need to find another way to cope. Smashing up people smaller than you isnt smart and its not fun either.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2005, 04:57:50 PM by Necrosis »
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March 16, 2005, 04:56:18 PM
Reply #30

Manta

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You make a good point in that post, but it's debatable as to whether that is truly deserving of a ban. However, I agree that if you aren't being challenged at all, there's no point in staying in the game except to make it less enjoyable to others.

March 17, 2005, 01:37:01 AM
Reply #31

SwiftSpear

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Well teppla and his .txt cronies have succeeded in getting banned from many servers for "skill" without ever saying a word.  Athough they aren't technically clanners, and they do do other annoying things like comm spam and teamstack.
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March 17, 2005, 12:01:30 PM
Reply #32

Necrosis

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I don't think there's anything wrong with banning for skill if you're completely open about it.


Again, I speak from experience as I had to do it for a job. You have to keep the skilled players from griefing the new players, and you've to stop the new players from griefing the older ones.

Whats bad about being banned for skill anyway? It effectively says "you are good enough at the game to disrupt its enjoyment for others.". Sounds like a compliment.

Furthermore, I would only do it as a server owner/administrator. As a mere admin, you enforce the will of the owner. In essence then you should be saying "thank goodness you don't own a server".

At the end of the day you have to assess the needs of the regular players. If one guy keeps disrupting the game to the point of unplayability, then that person needs to be removed from the server. I have long been of the opinion that top tier players should be forming top tier servers so that they don't have to cope with crap marine teams, and so normal players don't have to cope with some asshat whose idea of fun is to singlehandedly destroy a game as fade.

Thankfully on LM our players are mortal enough that this is not a problem, and when there's enough regs on its impossible for any one player to imbalance the game. I am discussing hypotheticals. Banning for disruptive skill is completely legit. I would ban someone from disrupting a game for being too good, and also for being terrible.



As an addendum, I would ban as a last resort. When there's enough regs on, most servers can handle most skilled players by weight of number. So generally if it was all nubs, I'd kick the skill guy and tell him to come back later. If he persists in laming it with nubs, then he'd get banned for disruption. Hey, my server, my rules.


People should be actively measuring their own skill against the other players. If you're thrashing them all and not dying in return, then chances are you're being a llama. Most players will recognise this and use pub games for practising other classes/roles, tinkering with upgrades, or unwinding a little after a game.

There does however remain a small hard core of people who play clan standard game after game, regardless of opponent skill. If it disrupted regular play then its effectively disrupting other players enjoyment, and comes under llama behaviour.


I wouldn't play my tabletop games against a kid because I'm pretty good at what I do. I got banned from playing tabletop games using a certain race at my local store PURELY BECAUSE noone could beat me when I used that race. Ever. Even if they used that race against me. At first I thought it was unfair, and that I was being discriminated against... but when maturity kicked in I realised how unfair it was on the people I was thrashing. I was teaching them nothing, and they were only getting annoyed with me.

So I kept to playing skilled players, and whenever I was in the store I'd experiment with a new race or unit. I was happy, the store was happy, and the other players were happy.

Same thing for servers. If someone's being an asshat, you have to crack down on them. As long as you're open and honest about the reasons for it, there should be no stigma.
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Holy_Devil: cheater

March 17, 2005, 01:59:52 PM
Reply #33

Malevolent

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I don't think there's anything wrong with banning for skill if you're completely open about it.
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Think what you will, but it is basically a form of discrimination. In every other field of life, people try to be good at what they do, and they earn it. The same goes for online gaming. Civ is an excellent player, but I doubt you'd ban him since you know him. HD is  an admin and he's good. Would you ban him too? Seriously think about it. If you don't play against good people, will you yourself get any better?
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March 17, 2005, 04:55:59 PM
Reply #34

Necrosis

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The difference here is that both players aren't the type to endlessly ream the other team just for the hell of it.

Your hypothetical wouldn't arise. You would need to imagine Civ/Eb/HD stacking aliums every game, going fade in the first minute in every game, and wiping every marine out within 2 minutes, in every game.

Thats not likely to happen. They're nice folk.


Playing against good people raises your game, but if your entire team gets slaughtered to a top tier fade, you've only learned that top tier fades are evil. Anyone can tell you that, you don't have to learn it for yourself "just to see".

Understand the difference between voluntarily playing someone above your league (done when tabletop gaming, you pick out the top dog and ask him for a game) and when a top tier player partycrashes your game for several hours, thrashing everyone while at the same time impossible to kill (tabletop gaming, the big dog decides to challenge you, then beats you senseless just for laughs while he unwinds).

Sometimes its just llama behaviour dressed up. Anyone with skill and maturity will be able to understand that their play is disrupting the game for other people. Its kind of hard to start a campaign against skill bans when the man with the banstick is open about it from the start.
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Holy_Devil: cheater

March 17, 2005, 05:50:01 PM
Reply #35

SwiftSpear

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I see what you are getting at necrosis, and I tend to agree with you.  HD and Civ wouldn't really be at risk for bans because they don't use thier skill to lame up the game.  Generally we have to MAKE them fade if they are playing on the server, and they never res whore unless they are asked specifically to do otherwize (something I know I am guilty of every once in a while).

If someone is using thier skills to abuse the other players on the server then I don't see how it is incredibly different from llamaing.  Why is there ever any point in your player carrier where you have earned the right to be a jackass?  being a jackass is bad weather you worked hard for a long time to be one or you just woke up one day jackassy.

If a player is going to be a llama they should be banned for being a llama, weather it was using incredible skills to ruin game after game or just doing something really annoying like TKing your teamates.
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March 17, 2005, 05:59:16 PM
Reply #36

Malevolent

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The difference here is that both players aren't the type to endlessly ream the other team just for the hell of it.

Your hypothetical wouldn't arise. You would need to imagine Civ/Eb/HD stacking aliums every game, going fade in the first minute in every game, and wiping every marine out within 2 minutes, in every game.

Thats not likely to happen. They're nice folk.


Playing against good people raises your game, but if your entire team gets slaughtered to a top tier fade, you've only learned that top tier fades are evil. Anyone can tell you that, you don't have to learn it for yourself "just to see".

Understand the difference between voluntarily playing someone above your league (done when tabletop gaming, you pick out the top dog and ask him for a game) and when a top tier player partycrashes your game for several hours, thrashing everyone while at the same time impossible to kill (tabletop gaming, the big dog decides to challenge you, then beats you senseless just for laughs while he unwinds).
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I have no problem playing agaisnt skilled players no matter how good they are. I might bitch about it in-game, but it isn't like I want them to leave. And if there are a couple of marines killing skulks endlessly...well that is what they are supposed to do. Figure out a way to get around them, and then when other skilled people come on it won't be a problem at all. And if there is even a crazily skilled person playing, they hardly ever come back again. If they do keep coming back, you'll probably start liking him/her and learn from him/her. You also don't see skilled players coming on the server and stacking because they have no idea who is even good.

If a fade is slaughtering a whole team endlessly, there is something wrong; your comm can't drop meds/shotguns or something. Civ was a crazy fade when he played more, and he went fade quite a bit. It was what he was good at, and who can blame him for being what he was good at? You have to just figure out ways to kill them. Some people noticed that Civ would use the ceiling to control his blink. He also happened to do it in a pattern. We put some mines up there and he died.

You might not think you have a choice of playing against skilled players in NS on LM, but you do. You can leave the game if it's too much, and you're not having fun. You should expect to see skilled people on LM. Everyone knows about it. We have a lot of people that used to play here more often that are in CAL now. A lot of our regs are good and could play competitively.
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March 17, 2005, 08:50:03 PM
Reply #37

Necrosis

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Yeah, but LM is a good server.

Imagine one where there's not so many regs, or the regs are all universally poor players. I can think of several such servers right off the bat.

These servers have difficulty coping with nubs like me, so you can imagine the effect of an arrogant nutball who wants to ream the server for laughs. Should they ALL quit the server because of this one guy? Or should an admin take him aside for a chat?

The big trouble with perceived skill bans is that they're written off as hackusations or admins/owners who don't like losing. I think it'd be refreshing to see a server say "well actually its because you're good to the point of being disruptive, so we're banning you until we get to better-than-average skill".

Kind of hard to flame back at that.
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Holy_Devil: cheater

March 18, 2005, 02:46:38 AM
Reply #38

lolfighter

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Actually I was thinking somewhere along those lines back in the day when civ was completely unbalancing the game. He DID go Fade every game, and that pretty much spelled doom for the marines.
I would NEVER have banned him for skill, that's just not how we run things in LM. But I was planning to take him aside for a chat and politely ask him to either mix it up a little with other roles or find more skilled servers to play on. But he came to that conclusion without me asking him to first.

March 18, 2005, 12:04:05 PM
Reply #39

Necrosis

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Yes, most decent hearted folk tend to catch on fairly soon. However, you do get dedicated asshats.
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