Author Topic: XXX Church  (Read 15729 times)

December 23, 2004, 01:21:28 PM
Reply #20

GrayDuck

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[...]Legionnaired, great find with the stats and stuff... I sent that link to my husband  :p I'm waiting to see his reaction.  haha

Edit:  He was offended  <_<
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wth?
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You tell me.  He thought I was making a threat or something.  He was very defensive about this issue.  I sent it to him because I found it interesting a bit humorous.

December 23, 2004, 02:34:20 PM
Reply #21

Nuketheplace

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I can see how he might be offended.  If you send him that link it implies that you know he looks at porn.  Also it implies that you want him to stop because he is either A) Addicted or B) your going to brake up with him because he looks at it.   You might want to tell him that you found if funny.  That might make him feel better.

Edit: I had no clue that B) ment something in emoticons
« Last Edit: December 23, 2004, 02:38:11 PM by Nuketheplace »

December 25, 2004, 07:45:40 PM
Reply #22

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Personally, I think that porn is only a problem because the society we live in MAKES it a problem. People who feel guilty for masturbating only feel guilty because they're TOLD to. From a young age, they're told that masturbating is an embarrassing subject and that it's wrong to do it.

I think that, if nobody were ever told that masturbation is wrong, that sex is embarrassing, and that porn is demeaning to women, we wouldn't be in this boat. People would masturbate because they want to. They would feel good about it. Porn would just be another kind of job, it wouldn't be any more embarrassing or strange than filing papers and answering telephones.

I'm not denying that it can be addictive, everything can be addictive. In fact, I'm willing to put money on the fact that there are more people addicted to caffeine than there are to masturbation. Caffeine is much more unhealthy than masturbation. Caffeine is also a drug. Why are some drugs okay and some aren't? Who the hell makes these laws? Caffeine, tobacco and alcohol are legal. These are things that your body can become addicted to. These are things that are much more harmful than pot, but pot is illegal. Your body also won't become addicted to pot. Any addiction to pot is mental.

In the end, I'm saying this: I masturbate. Often. It doesn't embarrass me to admit this. I enjoy it, it doesn't make me feel guilty. Yes, I fantasize about women. It doesn't bother me that these fantasies won't come true, they're fantasies. Not reality. It doesn't strain my relationship with women. (I actually get along better with women than I do with men. My best friend in the world is female. I do fantasize about her sometimes, but that doesn't make it any more difficult to be friends with her.) I also don't think that porn is demeaning to women. They wouldn't do it if they thought that it was robbing them of their dignity. (To be honest, I dislike "dignity". It only serves to make people feel bad. Look at dogs. Dogs don't have a sense of dignity. Neither do cats or any other non-human animal that I've ever seen. You won't ever see a monkey sulking because it hasn't got any clothes.)

December 25, 2004, 08:32:58 PM
Reply #23

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CForrester, A+ for you, That's something most of us here (I think ) can do. :-D


And for the record, the reason Pot is banned, is because you can actually make a real cheap paper from pot, REALLY easily, so they banned it so that companies can get a profit and make sure no one else can do it.


Other wise that whole "drug addiction" thing is a bonus they used to cover up.


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December 26, 2004, 07:24:59 AM
Reply #24

lolfighter

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Heck, I prefer porn stars to telemarketers. Porn stars don't call me at dinnertime trying to hawk their wares.

December 26, 2004, 10:46:34 AM
Reply #25

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[...]Legionnaired, great find with the stats and stuff... I sent that link to my husband  :p I'm waiting to see his reaction.  haha

Edit:  He was offended  <_<
[snapback]37001[/snapback]
wth?
[snapback]37078[/snapback]

You tell me.  He thought I was making a threat or something.  He was very defensive about this issue.  I sent it to him because I found it interesting a bit humorous.
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sounds like you should dump the guy, and run off with someone much younger who drives a 1991 buick regal and lives in central texas... I hear good things about those boys.


 :p

December 26, 2004, 11:12:32 AM
Reply #26

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I just do it to keep my prostate healthy, i don't enjoy it.
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December 27, 2004, 04:28:19 AM
Reply #27

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Personally, I think that porn is only a problem because the society we live in MAKES it a problem. People who feel guilty for masturbating only feel guilty because they're TOLD to. From a young age, they're told that masturbating is an embarrassing subject and that it's wrong to do it.
For the most part a agree with you here.  But the fact must be recognized that it is sometimes destructive, and there is nothing wrong with a person who chooses not to masturbate for whatever reason.  I also want to draw out the fact that masturbation and porn are not nessicarily synonamous, and the problems with one are not the problems of the other.

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I think that, if nobody were ever told that masturbation is wrong, that sex is embarrassing, and that porn is demeaning to women, we wouldn't be in this boat. People would masturbate because they want to. They would feel good about it. Porn would just be another kind of job, it wouldn't be any more embarrassing or strange than filing papers and answering telephones.
I can't help but disagree compleatly here.  Perhaps if no one had been told such things the world would be a different place, but that is essentially the same argument that the nazis made as they eliminated the jews: if the jews never existed the world would be a better place (sorry, the comparison to nazis was not meant to be personal, I assure you I hold your views in MUCH MUCH less contempt then I hold the view the nazi's had).  Such speculation is problematic because it basicly eliminates the freedom of humanity in the world.  Sure a world with only one type of person would be more peaceful, but it's also really irrealistic to wish for and ultimately an affront to humanity.

I really don't think that the argument is even fair anyways.  Pornography IS demening to woman, and generally a terrible force towards objectifying them as a sex objects.  I feel no regret in saying that it is alot harder to think of a woman with the respect she rightfully deserves as a human being if you are excessively preocupied with her sexually.  Speaking from my own experiance, the less I have been viewing pornography recently the easier it is to keep my mind where it should be when interacting with females.  The objectifing of women in general is something that I personally find quite problematic in today's society, and something that I avoid at all costs in my own life.

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I'm not denying that it can be addictive, everything can be addictive. In fact, I'm willing to put money on the fact that there are more people addicted to caffeine than there are to masturbation. Caffeine is much more unhealthy than masturbation. Caffeine is also a drug. Why are some drugs okay and some aren't? Who the hell makes these laws? Caffeine, tobacco and alcohol are legal. These are things that your body can become addicted to. These are things that are much more harmful than pot, but pot is illegal. Your body also won't become addicted to pot. Any addiction to pot is mental.
Being addictive is less of a problem with pornography than being destructive is.  The fact that it is addictive only means that there is bound to be addicts that began early in life that end up stuck in there ways even after they disagree with the messages being portrayed and are frustrated with the consequences of addiction in there life.  If coffee addiction was more distructive to a persons life you can bet there would be much more of a movement to help addicts recover.  Being addiction is rarely a reason to combat addiction in and of itself, thus there is more to the issue than seems to be apparent on surface level.

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In the end, I'm saying this: I masturbate. Often. It doesn't embarrass me to admit this. I enjoy it, it doesn't make me feel guilty. Yes, I fantasize about women. It doesn't bother me that these fantasies won't come true, they're fantasies. Not reality. It doesn't strain my relationship with women. (I actually get along better with women than I do with men. My best friend in the world is female. I do fantasize about her sometimes, but that doesn't make it any more difficult to be friends with her.) I also don't think that porn is demeaning to women. They wouldn't do it if they thought that it was robbing them of their dignity. (To be honest, I dislike "dignity". It only serves to make people feel bad. Look at dogs. Dogs don't have a sense of dignity. Neither do cats or any other non-human animal that I've ever seen. You won't ever see a monkey sulking because it hasn't got any clothes.)
If your friend doesn't find you fanticizing about her insulting, then good for you.  I honesly don't disagree with anything you say to that point.  Dignity however, may seem a trivial concept, but it really isn't.  The beheivior of animals is a poor gage of the apropriateness of human beheivior.  We construct our social structures compleatly differently then any known living species and we do this because our brains are structured with a compleatly different set of psycological phenomena then any other being in the animal kingdom.  The information that any given animal is able to conceptualize is FAR FAR below that of even a substandard human being; not to say that they aren't capable of learning or forming an understanding of thier environment, but they aren't capable of abstract thought, or with the exception of a few examples, layered learning connections.  Some beheivioral patterns may trancend the man/beast barrier, but those must be taken as the exeption not the rule.

In our case our ability to form judgements about a person and hold grudges based on thier behaviors must be taken into account, and some concept of dignity must be formed.  The nature or application of dignity I certainly consider up for debate... It is one of humanities catch words like 'honor' or 'love' in so that it really does not have an adequate in depth definition to speak of.  I can say this much about the issue however, if I were to ever meet one of the women that I recognized from something pornographic, it would be very hard for me to assess her without a-friggin-lot of preconceptions that she may or may not deserve.
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December 27, 2004, 06:50:16 AM
Reply #28

sonic

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When I saw Swiftspear had made a post in this thread, I thought "uh oh, here comes a 50 million page essay about how porn = bad and masturbating = bad" and guess what? I was bloody right.

December 27, 2004, 09:13:31 AM
Reply #29

Dirty Harry Potter

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actually, he didn't quite say that. He said that masburbation is not the same as pornography, and that pornography is bad.

Back on topic. About women being treated as sex objects through porn, yes i guess they do, however, just because you treat one woman as a sex object at some point, doesn't mean you treat every women as such, nor does it mean you treat the woman as a sex object all the time. If watching porno indeed does make you treat women as sex objects would depend on the person watching the porn.

Generally i'd say that pornography would just make you more inclined to notice the sexual side of females, i hardly think pornography would make people treat women as objects. Futhermore, Sexuality isn't really the same as objectification, if it was, then you wouldn't be able to have sex without being a degrading asshole.

About sexuality and women, if this is bad or not depends on the woman in question. Some might find it offending, others might not. A rule of thumb would be that if they think you as a sexual being, then they don't mind you thinking openly(that is, you tell her or she discovers it) of them as a sexual being. If they mind you doing it secretly, well.....there's a saying that goes: "what they don't know, can't hurt them". The real question is how much it annoys the observer of the women, and this is where or differences come in.


How you think pornography is destructive i can't quite see, do you mean the potential degrading of women connected to it, or something else ?

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December 27, 2004, 10:38:31 AM
Reply #30

CForrester

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Personally, I think that porn is only a problem because the society we live in MAKES it a problem. People who feel guilty for masturbating only feel guilty because they're TOLD to. From a young age, they're told that masturbating is an embarrassing subject and that it's wrong to do it.
For the most part a agree with you here.  But the fact must be recognized that it is sometimes destructive, and there is nothing wrong with a person who chooses not to masturbate for whatever reason.  I also want to draw out the fact that masturbation and porn are not nessicarily synonamous, and the problems with one are not the problems of the other.
Oh, I don't mean to say that there's anything wrong with someone who chooses not to masturbate. In fact, masturbation seems to be unnatural, itself. Masturbation is probably against natural instinct, in that the object is procreation, not recreation. It doesn't hurt me, however, and I enjoy it. So it doesn't bother me.

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I think that, if nobody were ever told that masturbation is wrong, that sex is embarrassing, and that porn is demeaning to women, we wouldn't be in this boat. People would masturbate because they want to. They would feel good about it. Porn would just be another kind of job, it wouldn't be any more embarrassing or strange than filing papers and answering telephones.
I can't help but disagree compleatly here.  Perhaps if no one had been told such things the world would be a different place, but that is essentially the same argument that the nazis made as they eliminated the jews: if the jews never existed the world would be a better place (sorry, the comparison to nazis was not meant to be personal, I assure you I hold your views in MUCH MUCH less contempt then I hold the view the nazi's had).  Such speculation is problematic because it basicly eliminates the freedom of humanity in the world.  Sure a world with only one type of person would be more peaceful, but it's also really irrealistic to wish for and ultimately an affront to humanity.
We wouldn't know until we've seen it played out, though. For all we know, maybe the world WOULD have been a better place if the Jews never existed. (I'm not saying that this is my view and I don't agree with eliminating the Jews now.) On the other hand, it could be even worse. We wouldn't know unless it actually played out that way.

I didn't really mean that everyone would be the same. I meant more... The scales would be tipped more towards people not being embarrassed about it. As it stands, a good majority of the population is embarrassed when it comes to discussing sex.

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I really don't think that the argument is even fair anyways.  Pornography IS demening to woman, and generally a terrible force towards objectifying them as a sex objects.  I feel no regret in saying that it is alot harder to think of a woman with the respect she rightfully deserves as a human being if you are excessively preocupied with her sexually.  Speaking from my own experiance, the less I have been viewing pornography recently the easier it is to keep my mind where it should be when interacting with females.  The objectifing of women in general is something that I personally find quite problematic in today's society, and something that I avoid at all costs in my own life.
How is it any different from watching a violent movie or playing a video game? It's still fantasy, just a different sort of fantasy. People need to keep the difference between fantasy and reality obvious.

This may be a place where we're quite different. I don't have problems with objectifying women. I keep the differences between fantasy and reality in mind. Even in my fantasies, I don't consider women to be objects. Even in porn, I don't consider them to be objects. I know and always remember that women have thoughts, feelings, opinions, rights, etc... But I don't let that stop me from occasionally thinking about some of them sexually. (Not all of them. An example being one of my friends. It bothers me to think about her sexually. I don't consider her to be the kind of person that should be thought of in that way.)

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I'm not denying that it can be addictive, everything can be addictive. In fact, I'm willing to put money on the fact that there are more people addicted to caffeine than there are to masturbation. Caffeine is much more unhealthy than masturbation. Caffeine is also a drug. Why are some drugs okay and some aren't? Who the hell makes these laws? Caffeine, tobacco and alcohol are legal. These are things that your body can become addicted to. These are things that are much more harmful than pot, but pot is illegal. Your body also won't become addicted to pot. Any addiction to pot is mental.
Being addictive is less of a problem with pornography than being destructive is.  The fact that it is addictive only means that there is bound to be addicts that began early in life that end up stuck in there ways even after they disagree with the messages being portrayed and are frustrated with the consequences of addiction in there life.  If coffee addiction was more distructive to a persons life you can bet there would be much more of a movement to help addicts recover.  Being addiction is rarely a reason to combat addiction in and of itself, thus there is more to the issue than seems to be apparent on surface level.
Caffeine is very destructive, though. It's a little difficult to notice because it's so incredibly widespread, moreso than porn, and nearly constantly being consumed. For example: People get so addicted to caffeine that, if they can't have their coffee in the morning, they feel drowsy all day. They're irritable, on-edge and depressed. Caffeine becomes a part of their life. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe that caffeine is physically addictive as well as mentally addictive. (Porn isn't physically addictive.) Read this for information on how caffeine works.

I think a movement to help caffeine addicts doesn't exist (or exists and is very small) because of the fact that caffeine has become so integrated in to peoples' lives that it's incredibly difficult to remove and most people just plain don't care. More people care about porn addiction because the Church opposes porn and masturbation and so many people have been brought up to think that porn is wrong. (But not caffeine.)

So it's not necessarily because porn is a bigger problem, it's just getting more publicity.

December 27, 2004, 10:54:50 AM
Reply #31

JohnTheGarbageman

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I like how we just equated "wanting to hump" to "objectification". If you're unable to have sex without demeaning your partner into an object, I feel a tad sorry for you.

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I can't help but disagree compleatly here. Perhaps if no one had been told such things the world would be a different place, but that is essentially the same argument that the nazis made as they eliminated the jews: if the jews never existed the world would be a better place

Wow, I hope to god you're just trolling for kicks. Otherwise that is not just the tiredest, most klicheed analogy, its also worthlessly inaccurate in this case. Saying "If we didn't believe it to be bad, we wouldn't have this problem" does not equate to saying "If these people didn't exist, we wouldn't have this problem". One deals with a simple mindset and social stigmata, the other with human beings that have done nothing except be at the receiving end of negative prejudice.

If anything, the corresponding argument would be : The Nazis would have had a much easier life if they'd just believed Jews, gays, tramps, the poor and crippled are cool, since it wouldn't have hurt them one bit. Unsurprisingly enough, that rings fairly true - without that whole psychopathic genocide bit Hitler might have been a reasonable chap. But I wouldn't advocate going along with this any further, I have no intent of equating your reasons for disliking pornography with racial hatred.


Now, back on topic. The whole issue of demeaning and mistreatment is a simple one - if you care, fight the real issue and not pornography. Yes, mistreatment at the workplace is a social malady - it happens in many, many places though, and not just when a penis and a vagina are involved. I'm all for more humane working conditions across the board - but porn isn't the right scapegoat.

Definitely the most opportune though, as you've so cleverly demonstrated several times - our own phantasys make it very easy to imagine pornography as universally demeaning and unfair, and with the good old socially fueled repression going on, finding a good reason to point at porn and say "Hey, I'm against this" is perfect.

If you really care about the issue of personal and sexual abuse, then go do something about it, and not obscure your goal with a crusade against porn. And if you just want to crusade against porn - well, go meditate or something. You're too tense.

December 27, 2004, 02:53:45 PM
Reply #32

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December 27, 2004, 03:27:23 PM
Reply #33

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aaaannnnnd we have a winner!

December 27, 2004, 06:38:41 PM
Reply #34

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Everyone's attacking me :(

In all seriousness though, all I'm saying is that it is unrealistic to expect the anti-pornographic movement to just go away, and I personally think that it isn't nessicarily a bad thing.  You can argue that the 50% of marriages that collapse with pornography being a factor is simply due to people who ignorantly belive that pornography is just inately bad, but I think that is ignoring the fact that there is alot about human sexuality that we still don't understand, and there is alot of emotional attachements and structures that humans, as sexual beings, still have not mapped out.

I was never arguing that sex without objectification is not possible, but the vast majority of pornography is far more objectification than it is sex.  Does that make all pornography wrong? I don't know.  But I haven't been impressed with what I have seen so far.

Dignity still IS an issue to be considered.  The vast magority of women simply don't want to be thought of in any way that might be synonomous with porn stars.
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December 27, 2004, 09:53:38 PM
Reply #35

LowCrawler

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consider this:

who taught you to whack off? I know i was trying to flub mine before i had ever even seen a boobie....

its builtin, like picking your nose, and theres nothing wrong with it.

December 28, 2004, 01:39:56 AM
Reply #36

SwiftSpear

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consider this:

who taught you to whack off? I know i was trying to flub mine before i had ever even seen a boobie....

its builtin, like picking your nose, and theres nothing wrong with it.
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It's a little different... But never the less, I don't see how it really hurts anyone.  I don't see how a simple personal action that involves absolutly no one else can really be all to problematic.

Some might argue that it prevokes inapropriate fantasies, but if you are too incapable to control the creations of your own mind you should be seeking psychological help anyways.
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December 28, 2004, 04:05:50 AM
Reply #37

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Watch out LowCrawler, those fantasies in your head might escape through your ear and mug an old lady. Best see professional help before the worst happens!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2004, 04:10:23 AM by sonic »

December 28, 2004, 07:06:31 AM
Reply #38

lolfighter

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December 28, 2004, 10:24:05 PM
Reply #39

JohnTheGarbageman

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@scooter:
Welcome to the "I don't need an argument if I have controversy" argumentation style ;)

And just because I never replied to it, the "15% of all people viewing pornography develope sexual disorders" statistic took the cake. I'd like to see how that survey was done with a correct control group - fine 2 similiar numbers of people who do and don't view any porn at all, prove that none of them currently have any sexual disorders, then go on and study them over 30 years. When you're done be quoted by a fluff site that conveniently emits any information about what definitions for SDs were used (DSM-IV? ), and what methods were used for the survey, and what rate of disorder developement was found amongst real "non porners". Phew. Suffice to say that site does not appear credible in the slightest.

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Dignity still IS an issue to be considered.  The vast magority of women simply don't want to be thought of in any way that might be synonomous with porn stars.
[snapback]37369[/snapback]

The vast majority of men don't want to be the one-dimensional character of a romance novel, the tired stereotype of a soap-operate antagonist or for that matter, most poignantly, a well-toned, tanned meathead fresh out of any commercial. That does not mean I, as a guy, find it wrong that some females entertain these fantasies - and I'm certain not every female that has once bought into one of these things would be capable of only this kind of thought.

In the same way, we all know not all women are large breasted bleached blondes ready to :D the nearest stranger, but sometimes we just want to relax and pretend. Simplified and rather demeaning stereotypes are the lifebread of all sorts of entertainment anyways - literature, video, film, books - and not exclusive to porno.

So excuse me if I still don't see the compelling reason behind this anti-pornography thing. Of course you are right, its not doing a whole lot of harm either - but I got the feeling you wanted to discuss the benefits here, not make the statement that repressive attitudes towards sexuality are "still better than a poke in the eye". :p


Addendum :
You're correct that the human psyche, and not just sexuality, as a whole is a largely vague field - however that disorders are often created by repression or the creation of subconscious and conscious conflicts is no secret.

Oh well, 7 AM and I'm not being very coherent. If anything above seems unclear, just ask.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2004, 10:26:14 PM by JohnTheGarbageman »