Reducing Rambo Effectivness

[A Boojum Snark]

I wasn't too sure on this idea so I wanted to see what you all thought before I posted on ns.org (and ya think I should put it in I&S or pub beta disc?)


The backstory to NS says that marines don't actually "build" the structures, but rather hold their hand over the area to authorize the nanites to continue and produce the structure. Now it would only make sense that some things would require higher and/or multiple authorization. This is where my idea comes from.

Res towers, phase gates, proto labs, and siege cannons would require TWO or more marines to +use before they begin to be built by the nanites. This would prevent lone rambos from being very effective to help the team, but would not touch the big debate over LA/skulk combat effectivness.

My reasonings for those structures (aside from the obvious rambo/ninja nerf) can be figured out with a little thinking. Siege cannons are extremely powerful. Prototypes are... well... prototypes, secretive/classified/whatnot. Res nodes aren't things that janitor bob and nurse jane can tap into freely like an electrical outlet, but rather need higher authorization. Lastly, phase gates are somewhat risky and unstable (telefrags) ,and aside from being the main structure behind this idea, seem like something that would require more authorization.


So all in all, rambos cannot be effective as they are now, no more ninja PGs or lone RT cappers. Yet, it doesnt touch how well marines do while in a fight, which can be dealt with later if needed.

[BobTheJanitor]

Ewwww. This means if you see two marines you now only have to kill one and the other becomes useless. The lone capper, and the lone marine building a PG are staples of NS. It's how things get done. The disadvantage of being that lone marine is that you are just ONE guy. It only takes a few bites to kill you. If you're not just camping a hallway, but are actually trying to put up structures like a good flex marine, you are almost constantly at risk of dying to anything that comes by. Especially if that something knows how to be properly sneaky.

[Mr.Bill]

nonono!!

thats  horrible idea! your taking that from a compleatly alien view! not from both/1 hell your not even thinking of what a comm would have to go trhough to get BASE built! little own killing anychance of a smalll server! Ninjas make ns what it is almost! and since when has 2 people EVER been able ot listen to their comm and work together!? I am against this idea compleatly/1 it goes gainst everything I stand for! (and rambos arnt bad, their just misunderstood!)

[Path]

This is a unique idea, to be sure, and needs to be fully understood before the advantages become clear.

As much fun as ninja phase gates and the surprise shotty rush are, they should not remain. With this idea, the rambo can perhaps get a TF/turrets up, awaiting the necessary backup to build the sieges and PG.

In game theory, this also makes sense. Marines are not supposed to survive when found solo. The truth to that currently is debatable, but at least this way the rambos cannot do too much for the team.

[Satiagraha]

Ewwww. This means if you see two marines you now only have to kill one and the other becomes useless. The lone capper, and the lone marine building a PG are staples of NS. It's how things get done. The disadvantage of being that lone marine is that you are just ONE guy. It only takes a few bites to kill you. If you're not just camping a hallway, but are actually trying to put up structures like a good flex marine, you are almost constantly at risk of dying to anything that comes by. Especially if that something knows how to be properly sneaky.

Agreed. Lone rines building structures and stuff are a major part of NS gameplay and strategy. Besides, manditory multiple-autorization would eliminate half the ninja sieging, ninja relocations, and other ninja whatnots :p

In game theory, this also makes sense. Marines are not supposed to survive when found solo. The truth to that currently is debatable, but at least this way the rambos cannot do too much for the team.

The point of the marines is that no marine is ever alone, he is always being overwatched by the commander

[BobTheJanitor]

I think that if the marine rambo is too strong, the solution is to improve the base skulk. Whether it be by an armor improvement, a base speed improvement, making the skulk model itself, and the hitbox, slightly smaller, or what, I'm not sure. But I'm much happier when a balance is created by adding weight to one side, and not by taking from the other.

[Isamil]

NOOO!
We must have ninjas!

[A Boojum Snark]

...
You guys are pathetic <_<

This means if you see two marines you now only have to kill one and the other becomes useless.

Yes, so maybe you should move out as a team like marines were intended to leaving perhaps 1 or 2 guys to hop the phase gates and keep tabs on base and outposts, but then, turrets make good alerts too.

If you're not just camping a hallway, but are actually trying to put up structures like a good flex marine, you are almost constantly at risk of dying to anything that comes by. Especially if that something knows how to be properly sneaky.

Here is a classic case of comparing two different skill levels. If the alien team has great sneaking skills, you must plan and balance assuming the marines are equal and would not be easily snuck up upon.

I think that if the marine rambo is too strong, the solution is to improve the base skulk. Whether it be by an armor improvement, a base speed improvement, making the skulk model itself, and the hitbox, slightly smaller, or what, I'm not sure. But I'm much happier when a balance is created by adding weight to one side, and not by taking from the other.

Is this not what has been going on build after build? and is also a major splitting point of the whole NS community? This whole idea was trying to do something without poking the skulk-vs-LA dog with a stick.

bob:
The lone capper, and the lone marine building a PG are staples of NS. It's how things get done.

bill:
Ninjas make ns what it is almost!

Uhh... yea, thats how things are done, and it is not right. Marines are supposed to be a team, not get things done buy having lone soldiers running around.

and since when has 2 people EVER been able ot listen to their comm and work together!?

Again, uhh...? All the time on LM? and again, marines are supposed to be a team, if even two people can't listen, you shouldnt win.

thats horrible idea! your taking that from a compleatly alien view! not from both

Wrong. I have never in my life been one to look at things one-sided unless I have hard facts (hard facts like the US flag as 50 stars). I wouldn't mind this one bit when playing on marines.

killing anychance of a small server!

Classic was ever intended for small servers? That is news to me, I thought that is what Combat was for.


I guess I'm done with this thread, I thought people around here would understand what I was trying to do but it seems just as futile as the ns.org boards.

[BobTheJanitor]

I understand your point, and I understand what you're trying to do, I just think that the ultimate effect would be more painful that it's worth. The two man squad becomes obsolete, because one man dying means that the remaining marine can't do anything short of running back to base or just shooting aliens randomly for a while.

In fact what this would do is encourge lame hallway camping rambos even MORE. "Sorry comm, I can't get you RTs, I'm just one guy. But I can sit in this hall and shoot skulks all day long, hooray!"

Marine strategy would have to be totally changed to allow for extra marines to keep up deaths. If it takes two to build something than the most useful effect of two man squads, "Cover me while I build this," is also useless. Now you can't build without two men. Now you have to have a THIRD person watching those two build. One skulk comes along and takes out that one guy and now they can't build it, because as soon as they start building, they're cannon fodder. That one skulk just has to make enough noise to distract ONE of them, and they can't build. While he's making noise, he can also be screaming for backup, if the first marine put too many bullets into him.

It's a major, far reaching, incredibly painful nerf for marines. Like I said, I appreciate the problem, and I don't in any way want you to feel insulted or like your efforts are futile. But you know how incredibly complex NS is already. Something that seems like the smallest tweak can send the whole house of cards crashing down.

Just don't leave in a huff. Leave with a smiley on your face.  

[lolfighter]

Note to self: Set Bob to "posts need admin approval" so I can get in a good point once in a while.

Oh yeah, everything that Bob said seconded.

[Grimm]

I think it would be safe to take the NS backstory and completely throw it out, completely remove any connections between it and the gameplay. I say this because every day that goes by, every new patch that is released, the game becomes less like how the original stories written for it are. The storyline part of the game, the ambient experience, was ruined for me when I began realizing that most everybody ups their gamma so they can see in every dark corner and uses custom sprites that shows them exactly where to shoot, among other advantage-giving setting tweaks.

[Mr.Bill]

Yeah abs, ignore me ive never been good t arguing anyway but bob on the other hand is crazyly awsome at it, i second ANYTHING he says.

[-Lancer-]

I think it would be safe to take the NS backstory and completely throw it out, completely remove any connections between it and the gameplay. I say this because every day that goes by, every new patch that is released, the game becomes less like how the original stories written for it are. The storyline part of the game, the ambient experience, was ruined for me when I began realizing that most everybody ups their gamma so they can see in every dark corner and uses custom sprites that shows them exactly where to shoot, among other advantage-giving setting tweaks.

you have no idea to what point i agree with you grimm. my game is still completely the same as the day i dled it.  well, exept the digesting pic i got sick of.
No extra skins, nothing to help me aim, nothing that will unjustly improve my skills.

[johnjacobjingle]

I think it would be safe to take the NS backstory and completely throw it out, completely remove any connections between it and the gameplay. I say this because every day that goes by, every new patch that is released, the game becomes less like how the original stories written for it are. The storyline part of the game, the ambient experience, was ruined for me when I began realizing that most everybody ups their gamma so they can see in every dark corner and uses custom sprites that shows them exactly where to shoot, among other advantage-giving setting tweaks.

you have no idea to what point i agree with you grimm. my game is still completely the same as the day i dled it.  well, exept the digesting pic i got sick of.
No extra skins, nothing to help me aim, nothing that will unjustly improve my skills.

oh oh!  me 3 me 3!

way to give in to peer pressure grimm!!!!!!!!!!

[Avs]

I say the biggest problem is that the marine team now equals instead of 5 men and 1 commander, its 2 men and 1 commander.

Since plenty of skulks out there can take two marines reguardless of skill level..., now its a 6v2 game.

[Asal]

I think it would be safe to take the NS backstory and completely throw it out, completely remove any connections between it and the gameplay. I say this because every day that goes by, every new patch that is released, the game becomes less like how the original stories written for it are. The storyline part of the game, the ambient experience, was ruined for me when I began realizing that most everybody ups their gamma so they can see in every dark corner and uses custom sprites that shows them exactly where to shoot, among other advantage-giving setting tweaks.

you have no idea to what point i agree with you grimm. my game is still completely the same as the day i dled it.  well, exept the digesting pic i got sick of.
No extra skins, nothing to help me aim, nothing that will unjustly improve my skills.

oh oh!  me 3 me 3!

way to give in to peer pressure grimm!!!!!!!!!!

I'm one of the buggers in this club too!  Either too lazy, or too stubborn, to get some new skins.  Kodiac, however......I can't remember the last time I saw him using a standard skin     Now you all know his leet h4x.

[holy_devil]

i'd love to see lmgs nerfed instead, make the upgrade more useful for them or whatever, but atm marines own any long hallways, as seen from a good aiming camper on most of the maps, perhaps add more vents and less 'rofl i have skill you die' spots, i think it could be a map problem as far as that goes, but marines seem to just pwn early game even without upgrades (as seen when i comm, get a decent team and take over the map in rts its over)

[Legionnaired]

Which all boils down to skulks being underpowered.

Increase base armor points by 5, speed by 75, and you have a GAME.

[rad4Christ]

No. Just, no.

[Dark]

rad4Christ,Jul 18 2004, 12:17 PM] No. Just, no.

truer sentiments than i couldn't have come up with nicely put rad

rambos and ninjas are an essential part of the game and make it to where the aliens actually have to defend all the hives and rts they have. without rambos you could leave a hive completely undefended if all he could do was build small things like tfs and turrets

edit added ninjas to my statement