A Comparison

[confused!]

and by liberalism i mean recoganiton of historical facts.

Katrina versus Chernobyl

that and it seemed like a good time to mention one blatant ommision that infact the reactor explosion was a total suprise unlike katrina.

[A Boojum Snark]

"Roving gangs of armed criminals, random violence, derelict police officers."
"Bush tours five days after, avoiding new orleans"

Perhaps A is the reason for the italicized part of B? :p

I remember from an interview with a Chernobyl worker that the pretty direct cause of was that they had turned a fail-safe off to run some tests, then forgot to turn it back on when they finished testing. The article doesn't mention that (not that it would, nothing to compare to).

I don't know what I'm trying to say, if anything. Those are just things that popped into my mind. However I find most comparisons like this (different 'things') silly and kinda meaningless.

[Fewlio]

I remember from an interview with a Chernobyl worker that the pretty direct cause of was that they had turned a fail-safe off to run some tests, then forgot to turn it back on when they finished testing. The article doesn't mention that (not that it would, nothing to compare to).

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I thought the shit hit the fan when they started doing their testing, with the night crew without taking the right precautions. Chernobyl happened because of a poor design and negligence, but this comparison is looking at response to a disaster not intial cause .

[lolfighter]

Well, the article doesn't try to say that the reactor meltdown was an unpreventable "act of God," quite the opposite: Many of the comparisons are about how the whole episode could've been prevented or been greatly reduced in scale if the right actions had been taking before the catastrophe. The Chernobyl disaster was the combined result of a screwup and an accident, the Katrina disaster was the combined result of a screwup and a natural catastrophe.
The idea with the article is to point out that while the reasons for both disasters were pretty similar, the responses were totally different.

And if you want to know what happened that night, read Wikipedia.

An' here's an interview with one of the workers on station that night.

[Reasa]

I would also blame Bush for flooding in the Northeast and the earthquake in Pakistan. I also hold him responsible for the death of little Jenny Parson’s kitten Tammy who was run over by a speeding go-kart. Oh and AIDS that’s all him too.

[Fewlio]

I would also blame Bush for flooding in the Northeast and the earthquake in Pakistan. I also hold him responsible for the death of little Jenny Parson’s kitten Tammy who was run over by a speeding go-kart. Oh and AIDS that’s all him too.

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Well he cut a lot of budget, meaning yeah it's his fault for doing what we all knew he was going to do and his party has been doing for quite some time. He just was unlucky that we got owned by hurricanes, when people get unruly when they're not recieving help they usually don't get anymore either. If the people in NO had been good people instead of shooting at cops then yeah there would be more to hold against NO's government, LA's government, and the USA's government.

The only thing I'd argue against bush is that Lousiana is known to have a corrupt government, so of course the federal government should step in and take control otherwise you get too much money siphoned away from relief. Although, at least congress approved millions of dollars to rebuild New Orleans, when people were still in old new orleans waiting for relief.

[Diablus]

Bush is nub and as proven by this silly article, you can take any two major disasters that have absolutely nothing to do with eachother and call them "similiar" by doing detailed research and find a few thibgs they both have in common. Just like rescue workers having no protective suits OMG!11

[Reasa]

To be serious I have mixed feelings about whom, if anyone is responsible for the aftermath of Katrina. I, personally, pin the leadership blame on these 3:

Director of FEMA - Idiot with a thing for horses.

Mayor of New Orleans - Inarticulate Idiot.

Governor of Louisiana - Ineffectual Idiot.

President Bush - Really not his job or responsibility. I'm sorry but I don't see anything in the Constitution that lists disaster response or preparedness as a presidential responsibility. His taking blame for what happened was strictly a public-relations move, not a precedent or a policy

The president is a figurehead solely for the purpose of putting a face on the American people as far as foreign relations are concerned. Americans would do well to remember that at the polls in 08.

I would have to say the largest chunk of blame goes to the people of Louisiana. I'm a proponent of States Rights. For a State to set an example, and be deemed worthy of self-government, more or less, it must prove capable of at least holding face without the Federal Government. Perhaps the people of Louisiana well pick their leaders more carefully now that they have learned the hard way what depends upon their competence.

[lolfighter]

Reasa does have a point, this says more about the leadership of the state of Louisiana than the leadership of the United States as a whole. It can be debated who is responsible for screwing up, but the undeniable truth is that there is a whole lot of blame to be placed, both about actions taken (or rather, not taken) before and after the disaster. Not that it'll mean any particular consequences for those responsible. They'll face a decent amount of accusingly waving index fingers and perhaps the odd middle finger too, and they won't be re-elected. Meanwhile, more than a thousand people are dead due to their ineptness. I even doubt they have trouble sleeping at night.

[confused!]

i would have to argue that in fact reasa is wrong. first of all yes he has a poiint in of the fact that the state and city are in part to blame.

HOWEVER:

the mayor did order the city evacuated. Admitedly, he did not provide public transit for the evacuation of those citizens who were unable to evacuate themselves. there was no precedent for that in american public life.  evacuations are rarely taken seriously  the press and much of the public consider them optional...

 this seems to have not been an error so much as a continuation of american public policy at the locan and regional levels which is shown to be inadequate and contintues to be so..

further more:

At a news conference 10 a.m. on August 28, shortly after Katrina was upgraded to a Category 5 storm, New Orleans mayor C. Ray Nagin, calling Katrina "a storm that most of us have long feared," ordered the first ever mandatory evacuation of the city. Contraflow lane reversal on Interstate 10 leading west and Interstates 55 and 59 leading north from New Orleans was ended that afternoon.

as to the governer,
the goverener infact asked for antiona guards support on thursday. hwoever washington's response was slow. thi s has been alleged to have been becasue communications were slow.
admitedly the goverener also delayed the entry of teh red cross and others into the city but this was in response to "alleged" violence and disorder in the streets.

FEMA's role is one which one will hear repeatedly denoucned by every one and assuch i do not feel the need to reiterate it.

which brings me to the president.
i hate to bring this up but in fact the american president is one of th e most powerfull political figures in the world. he is in now way shape or form a figurehead. in additon to being teh commander and chief of the armed forces, possesing the power to veto legislation which incurs his wrath.  he also beacsue of political precedent in the aunited staes in able to appoint the leaders of nearly every federal agency including FEMA when he is elected to office. thus the leadership of FEMA is ultimately the responsibility of Bush.

furhter it is the policies of the administration which pulled money and people from FEMA into the department of homeland security. contriburted in a serious way to the agencies ability to perform the role it had in this crisis.

Disputing the Federal governement's responsibility in this area is pointless.  
The storm was predicted by teh National Hurricane Center the federal government had declared the area a federal emergency area. URL=http://www.fema.gov/about/history.shtm]FEMA's mission remains: to lead America to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from disasters[/URL].

The states rights movment is dead.  believe it.


i forgot to mention that desipte numeruous warnings the most accessavble member of the bush administration was infact shopping for shoes at the time when the crisisn utterly predicably went down. (ms. rice)

[Reasa]

i would have to argue that in fact reasa is wrong. first of all yes he has a poiint in of the fact that the state and city are in part to blame.
HOWEVER:
the mayor did order the city evacuated. Admitedly, he did not provide public transit for the evacuation of those citizens who were unable to evacuate themselves. there was no precedent for that in american public life.  evacuations are rarely taken seriously  the press and much of the public consider them optional

this seems to have not been an error so much as a continuation of american public policy at the locan and regional levels which is shown to be inadequate and contintues to be so..

So what if he ordered the city to be evacuated. I can order my city to be evacuated now, but I doubt anyone would listen. The mayor should have spent more time organizing public transportation leaders and less time whining like an invalid on TV and maybe the death toll would be in the 100's not the 1000's.

It was a HUGE error on the part of Mr. Nagin, soon to be the former mayor of New Orleans. He was simply under qualified on every possible level for dealing with this disaster and it showed.

Like I said, Americans should take heed of this and take their elections on the local levels much more seriously. These are the people who will be making the decisions when they count, not the federal government.

Think of the local government as the first responders and the federal government as the hospital. If you fall and break your neck and the paramedic who first arrives on the scene man handles you with a fireman’s carry into the ambulance. I don't care if you live next to the worlds best hospital, you will die.

as to the governer,
the goverener infact asked for antiona guards support on thursday. hwoever washington's response was slow. thi s has been alleged to have been becasue communications were slow.
admitedly the goverener also delayed the entry of teh red cross and others into the city but this was in response to "alleged" violence and disorder in the streets.

Umm could you please use MS Word or just spell check your posts for me. It's hard to make a rebuttal when I can't really understand what you’re saying.

I don't think the governor is as much to blame as the mayor; however she was still woefully inept at dealing with this disaster.

which brings me to the president.
i hate to bring this up but in fact the american president is one of th e most powerfull political figures in the world. he is in now way shape or form a figurehead. in additon to being teh commander and chief of the armed forces, possesing the power to veto legislation which incurs his wrath.  he also beacsue of political precedent in the aunited staes in able to appoint the leaders of nearly every federal agency including FEMA when he is elected to office. thus the leadership of FEMA is ultimately the responsibility of Bush.

The president may only use US troops for 90 days without Congressional approval and any veto he makes can be overruled by Congress. He is a figurehead and that is, basically, his intended constitutional role. Although Bush has seemingly strengthened the presidency, his main concern should be that of foreign affairs.

I do agree that Bush made an absolutely pathetic and poorly planned choice for the head of FEMA and that is the only blame I will recognize for Bush himself.

furhter it is the policies of the administration which pulled money and people from FEMA into the department of homeland security. contriburted in a serious way to the agencies ability to perform the role it had in this crisis.

Disputing the Federal governement's responsibility in this area is pointless. 
The storm was predicted by teh National Hurricane Center the federal government had declared the area a federal emergency area. URL=http://www.fema.gov/about/history.shtm]FEMA's mission remains: to lead America to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from disasters[/URL].

FEMA had both the money and the resources to deal with this disaster; unfortunately its leadership was under qualified and negligent. What resources had been positioned beforehand were than hampered by the idiocy of the state and local officials.

You keep referring to these declarations; unfortunately a declaration is meaningless if you don't have the ability and cooperation to carry it out. Declaring an area a Federal Disaster Area does not mean the local and state governments instantly transform into one unified Federal Voltron that smashes away hurricanes, hurls water towers and unites the people into one happy grateful community.

The Federal government relies on the local and state to work with it. What you had here was a failure of leadership on every level and accordingly nothing worked properly. Again most of the deaths could have been avoided had the local and state government functioned properly and efficiently before the storm even made landfall.

The states rights movment is dead.  believe it.

Ah so you’re a fan of big government? Well you have a perfect example of how well that works out. I guess that crazy Thomas Jefferson guy had no idea what was best for America…because we’re not a gigantic nation made up of 50 states with different people, needs, interests, industries, etc…

The point is people need to realize that the Federal Government is a gigantic bureaucracy, and like any bureaucracy it is incapable of the kind of quick reaction that any kind of natural disaster requires. Local and State governments MUST be able to cope, or at the least properly prepare so there is actually something left for the Federal Government to work with when it gets there.

i forgot to mention that desipte numeruous warnings the most accessavble member of the bush administration was infact shopping for shoes at the time when the crisisn utterly predicably went down. (ms. rice)

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Because she could do what to help the situation in Louisiana? Hold a press conference? Or did you expect her to row out into the Gulf with a bag of ice and attempt to lower the water temperature.

For the last time, the worst mistakes had already been made before the hurricane even made landfall.

Not to mention the abysmal behavior of the NO residents. Looting for food and water is fine, but shooting police and burning buildings is pure idiocy. That’s an entirely different debate however and I’ll stop it here.

[LowCrawler]

i forgot to mention that desipte numeruous warnings the most accessavble member of the bush administration was infact shopping for shoes at the time when the crisisn utterly predicably went down. (ms. rice)

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mostly off topic... but it reminds me of all the flak bush got after 9/11 after he chose to sit and read to the kids for a full * minutes before he went to NYC to see what was up... noone bothered to mention the time it takes to get air force one ready to take off, plus the fact that if youre reading to a bunch of kids, then a secret service man whispers something into the presidents ear and suddenly they all teleport away it throws any intelligent person into a bit of a panic.... (he doesnt wanna be here neither do i)

point is political figures shouldnt be expected to personally do anything about large scale catastrophes like this. They act through policy, hopefully preventing them from happening. When it all hits the fan though, its not the government but the citizens themselves and emergency respone agencies like the red cross and salvation army who bear the responsibility of keeping that death toll number down.

we can argue as much as we want about how much that sucks or how things should be, but it doesnt matter because thats the way things are.

[Niteowl]

1. Bush has a domestic and foreign responsibilities. Such as, say, appointing the president of an Arabian Horse Association to lead a Federal Emergency Response team.
 
2. If you are a fan of BIG GOVERNMENT, you must LOVE Bush. Few presidents have bloated the government and created more positions than Bush.

3. Rice should have been coordinating offers from around the world to offer RESCUE services and aid, being she's Secretary of State.

4. All levels of government where incompetent, but to try and say the federal level is without blame is silly.