The problem, Part II

[SwiftSpear]

Restructure the poll and I for one am still voting to not remove it.  This version may be somewhat unbalanced, expecially on certian maps.  But I have won my last 4 out of 6 games on hera, so evidently some degree of adaption is still possible.

The clanners can handle it and so can we.

[SlickWill]

I originally played this server because FF rocks.  You have to aim, you have to pick targets, you cannot spam.  This to me mean sa lot more fun.  Go FF.

[CryForMe]

For the love of god, leave FF on! I have found that 99% of the people that would be detrimental to gameplay and thus, fun, come on the server, see that FF is on, and leave immediately. Personally, I dont see people leaving cause of FF as a problem. It keeps those of us skilled enough to deal with it around, and all those unwilling to learn or cope out the door. Also, even though FF can be a hindrance to marines overall, IT WILL NOT effect alien win ratios. I have seen several server reports from non-FF servers and they all have the same readout as LM: high alien wins, ridiculously low rine wins. However, the difference is that it takes longer. Rines without FF can simply hole up in their base and unload on anything that comes within a 90° radius without fear of having to have decent aim. They can simply shoot the crap out of their teammates.
8 Rines with HMGs and FF cant take out a team of onoses.
8 Rines with HMGs and FF OFF CAN take out a team of onoses.
Problem is, aliens will have enough res to do it again instantly, so it just drags on and on and on at that point.
Leave FF alone!
Much <3 for FF

[That Annoying Kid]

Frankly LB I'm disapointed this is even being discussed. If I recall correctly FF is one of the staples of TLM since "back in the day"



but if the vast majority of the community wants to give it a trial run I'm not one to oppose

[lolfighter]

You're disappointed about it being DISCUSSED? Well, the church was disappointed as well when Galileo Galilei suggested that just maybe the sun did not rotate around the earth...

Ok, sorry, low blow, I know. But discussion is good, even if it leads to a no. FF does not DEFINE LM. LM was well defined back before my long break, and that was BEFORE 3.0 and FF.

[Ulatoh]

meh, i wish there was some middle ground, like, gl's would still blow up team members with ff off.

[Malevolent]

If I recall correctly FF is one of the staples of TLM since "back in the day"

[snapback]46976[/snapback]

I'm sorry but that is far from the truth. FF has been on for a minority of the time the server has been around.

[Niteowl]

Admittedly, back int he day for me wasn't that far back, SunnyD, i think, and FF wasn't on.

[Nooblet]

ahhhh FreeSunnyD. Now WHEN have you seen 7 marines running around togeather, not that often, 2-3 skulks can keep marines from expanding if they use ambushing tactics, and 2-3 skulks IN THE GENERAL HIVE AREA! not right in the hive but patroling it doing 2 jobs at once keeping marines back and guarding hive. Also what I said befor now aliens will have to THINK HARDER befor dropping a hive and will also have to maby drop OCs around. This will help balance out some of the res issues I think NS has.

Edit: some speeling

[Necrosis]

Free SunnyD...... oh the memories....

[Guspaz]

FF is a part of The Lunixmonster. Wether or not you love or hate it is a different matter. You'd be talking about getting rid of something that's been there a long time. LM is all about the things that make a game a game. Not quitting, not laming, keeping your shots and bites to the enemy, it's all about skill, not spraying everything. I say it stays

[snapback]46844[/snapback]

Umm, no. In Lunixmonster's history, FF has not been on for very long, and it was OFF much longer than it was on. It is most certainly NOT a "part" of Lunixmonster, just a holdover from a previous beta with unbalanced grenades that people got used to.

No offence to newer players, but somehow I feel like the only people voting in this poll should be those who have played on Lunixmonster long enough to have both played with it on, AND remember what it was like when it was off. People who joined the server just a few months ago have only seen one side of the issue, so they're not exactly objective.

EDIT: BTW, my definition of "been around long enough" would mean people who have played on Lunixmonster, by one name or another, since before 2004 or 2005. Maybe include people from the first half of 2004, but I can't honestly remember when FF was turned on.

Let me put it this way, if you played on the server when it was Evolutionarily Challenged's Nano Gridlock, you've been around long enough :p

[CorvusX]

I originally played this server because FF rocks.  You have to aim, you have to pick targets, you cannot spam.  This to me mean sa lot more fun.  Go FF.

[snapback]46961[/snapback]

FF does rock, and makes you watch where you shoot.  It HAS made me a better player overall.  Prevents (or at least limits)  nade spams and such as well, which is a good thing.

Dunno why people whine about MC rushes.  'rines have beacon, which is MUCH more effective imo.  Who says people will actually MC-rush in, anyway?  Most of the time they're unorganized to the point where it fails.

I vote that FF stays on.

[2_of_8]

I originally played this server because FF rocks.  You have to aim, you have to pick targets, you cannot spam.  This to me mean sa lot more fun.  Go FF.

[snapback]46961[/snapback]

Dunno why people whine about MC rushes.  'rines have beacon, which is MUCH more effective imo.  Who says people will actually MC-rush in, anyway?  Most of the time they're unorganized to the point where it fails.

[snapback]47081[/snapback]

Well, a simple argument to this is that beacon will involve the whole team in returning to base + phasing, while MCing can be selective to a few players - still allowing a few to remain in key positions defending or whatever.
And there is a chance that the Aliens will take down the phase gate before the Marines can phase through, while Mcing in... taking down a hive takes a bit more time, and there's no "feeding machine" mechanism in place

[TychoCelchuuu]

Let me put it this way, if you played on the server when it was Evolutionarily Challenged's Nano Gridlock, you've been around long enough :p

Then goody; I've been around long enough. I'm posting because I don't fit in on the poll. I don't really care about FF or not. I think its nice that you really have to aim and that a skulk can leap through a squad and cause lots of deaths, but it's annoying to worry about biting someone when you're taking down an RT. Everything has been discussed at length already, and each side has more than enough reasons to win. So I say just leave it on; it's less work.

[Mr.Ben]

As much as I hate the MC first crutch that we are becomeing so dependent on in LM, I REALLY can't support turning FF off. Belive it or not, highly skilled compeditive players regularly play with FF on, and for some reason they don't see it is a major balance problem.

It's not a big issue for us because it's far easier for us to co-ordinate our attacks on a hive. In a clan match you have a lone shotgun marine head to the other hive, shotgun down their chambers, or just attack the hive to prevent aliens MCing to the building one. You place mines on the floor, you have a HMG cover, you shoot the hive, the aliens MC in, you kill the aliens, you kill the hive. None of this is going to happen unless by accident on a public server because you won't have the sort of co-ordination needed to pull it off.

Personally I'd turn it off, it's very evident marines are getting bummed on this server and need all the help they can get.

[CryForMe]

Personally I'd turn it off, it's very evident marines are getting bummed on this server and need all the help they can get.

The problem isnt FF guys and gals. The root of the problem is this: Everyone has seen rine wins, even if seldom, since 3.0/3.01/3.02 came out. Everyone has pitched reasons back and forth for why rines lose all the time. Everyone has come to the conclusion that rines actually win some when they work as a cohesive team and have a decent comm. Yet, in every game I see, half the rine team rambos off and does their own thing, generally before someone can even get in the CC.  If you're going to figure that teamwork is the solution to winning, then you have to exercise it. Dont whine about "no teamwork" then go be a rambo every time you can. It leads to things like this, where innocent little FF gets blamed for rines losing.
Just for spec, I'm going to count the number of FF deaths I personally see on LM over the next week, because I'd be willing to bet that it's under 100.  I've been on servers that play without FF and then decide to turn it on "for fun" once in a while. It's horrendous. Theyre so used to being able to shoot through teammates that half the team winds up dead the first time one skulk rushes a group of rines.
but enough from me.
/end rant.

[lolfighter]

Well, CFM DOES have a point about the teamwork. We all know it's vital, we're all for it, but it quickly falls apart in the actual game. It's a trend that would be cool to see reverted. For starters, I suggest this one:

Unless you're under specific orders, "buddy up." This means that when you spawn, you check the spawnqueue to see if somebody's about to spawn in too. If so, wait for 'im to spawn and move out together. Stick with your buddy, even if he doesn't go the way you wanted to go. You can also try telling him where you'd like to go. You can then go for nodes or something like that - taking down a node is much easier when you have somebody to cover you.
If you're alone out in the field for some reason (for example your buddy died), use your minimap to find rines to join up with. You'll both live longer than if you'd just rambo around.

[Malevolent]

Personally I'd turn it off, it's very evident marines are getting bummed on this server and need all the help they can get.

The problem isnt FF guys and gals. The root of the problem is this: Everyone has seen rine wins, even if seldom, since 3.0/3.01/3.02 came out. Everyone has pitched reasons back and forth for why rines lose all the time. Everyone has come to the conclusion that rines actually win some when they work as a cohesive team and have a decent comm. Yet, in every game I see, half the rine team rambos off and does their own thing, generally before someone can even get in the CC.  If you're going to figure that teamwork is the solution to winning, then you have to exercise it. Dont whine about "no teamwork" then go be a rambo every time you can. It leads to things like this, where innocent little FF gets blamed for rines losing.
Just for spec, I'm going to count the number of FF deaths I personally see on LM over the next week, because I'd be willing to bet that it's under 100.  I've been on servers that play without FF and then decide to turn it on "for fun" once in a while. It's horrendous. Theyre so used to being able to shoot through teammates that half the team winds up dead the first time one skulk rushes a group of rines.
but enough from me.
/end rant.

[snapback]47097[/snapback]

You are partially right. I have seen a good number of games in which no matter how good they play (even how stacked the teams are in the 'rines favor), they still lose. There is definitely something wrong with that.

When speaking of terms of FF affecting the game, it has nothing to do with how many people are killed by friendly fire. The number of people that are killed by friendly fire will be very small. What does matter is how many people get hurt from friendly fire and die because of the friendly fire damage. That is what makes a huge impact. A skulk's job will be much easier if a marine is damaged a bit, and a lot of times, your health will be down to 85 or so even if you haven't been attacked by a skulk yourself. Have a skulk or two rush three marines, and I'm almost positive everyone will have damage even if they weren't directly attacked by an alien.

[CryForMe]

very true, BUT, the same goes for aliens, especially skulks. A problem i frequently see is that when I'm attacking RT's as a skulk and another skulk comes running along to help me, 99.99999% of the time, i get bit. Now, assuming i'm at full hp/armor, it drops me to 68/2. This means far less bullets are needed to kill me. So the FF damage factor goes both ways.  Attributing game losses to FF seems a bit off the wall to me simply based on the way the game is currently constructed.  Yes, we all KNOW aliens are overpowered...well, except the onos. We KNOW that the beacon/pg rush tactic isnt as great anymore because of the half second wait time to phase. We KNOW we need to develop the teamwork thing. But as for FF? Lets think about it.
Say you get hit with a couple FF lmg bullets in a firefight (you have armor 0). Drops your armor a bunch, and your health very little. Say you get bit by a skulk instead of FF. Your health drops considerably and your armor is gone. Even if you kill the skulk, chances are, you need a medpack. With FF, you *might* need a medpack, but you still have a better survial probablility based on the fact that your armor is still mostly there. I dont really think i've ever been in any kind of situation where FF was responsible for the outcome of a game. Sure, theres the MC argument to it,  but remember, if the rines work as a unit, a shotgun rush on a hive takes 10 seconds, then the aliens are out 40+ res and mad cause you just took out a hive, even with the aliens MCing in. Remember that people dont just hang around the MCs like theyre a bar serving free drinks. Aliens are just as spread out as marines are, and half the time its easier to run to the hive than to MC to it.
If we wanted to try FF off, i wouldnt be staunchly opposed, but I think the quality of gameplay and the overall respectability of the players on the server might decrease. Not knocking the admin staff of course, just that it takes a bit more skill to play with FF on than it does to play with FF off, and it tends to keep some of the rif-raff out.

[GrayDuck]

*** Locked ***

Look here for an updated poll.  This one is flawed.  The question is whether to turn FF of for a week or so to try it out - not whether to permanently leave it off.