Overly Chatty Penguins
The Ready Room => General => Topic started by: Diablus on March 09, 2004, 06:30:37 PM
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Im sick of it, Hive 1 onos should be placed at hive 2, they are absolutly the biggest worthless peices of **** at hive 1, they do NOT "turn the tides of a game" for instance, ive seen this MANY games. Marines turtle, take 1 hive, get HA/HMG's and kill 1 hive, now tell me how hive 2 onos CAN make a difference in a game with stomp, yet its the biggest peice of lame on the field at hive 1, and YES i am complaing but i am Stating the truth. when marines get HA and are close to taking down the hicve 2 its end game, sure mabbye ull get lucky from a skulk rush and take out the phase gate but i mean comeon. marines have a end friggin game why can't aliens? i mean Hive 3 is worthless really, most alien wins end at hive 2 if marines dont get at least 3-4 nodes which is easy early game. now, don't take this to harshly because i am just venting, this is about the 11'th -12th time ive seen this, just now i was hive 2onos (and im a damn good one if uve seen me play on LM) but i cant take on 6 HA/HMG's at level 2-3 by myself, sure sometimes mabye i can if they dont stick together. now i died from a heavy rush into mess hall by being blocked by 2 gorges trying to heal spray me. Now i know what your gonna say " duh then dont let them kill hive 2" well mabye if u read above then ud see i was dead and wehad no onos.
We then get 3 onos and rush subspace, 3 YES 3 with celerity and regeneration. marines lost 1 marine when they all phased, we each devoured 1 and tried to gore the rest. we failed, miserably. Most were armed with hmgs, 1-2 had shotguns. We dropped like fiels and it totally wasnt fair. Ive been seeing this ALOT on nancy, and i know the problem... Onos cant get to marine start in time becuase they have to go through mess hall, marines lame up mess hall and its gg if they HA/HMG rush a hive. now that uve read this go ahead and flame, but i tell u this, even if your an amazing onos, 2-3 HA/HMGS' can easily take u out at hive 1, even if your skileld at devour and can get bhopping marines such as I u cant win even if u retreat. Onos turned into tanks armored with paper rather then carapace it seems.... Now i know someone will say " uhh 3 HA/HMG SHOuld be able to take out a hive 1 onos becuase it costs more) well for that nubcake id like to state if aliens lose all thier rts even when using teamwork id have to say getting onos takes a LONG time incase u cant tell time, and HA/HMG's are in a POOL of resources" 1 Onos should be able to take 2 HA/HMG marines, or at least kill 2 and badly injure 1 before being overpowered easily by them and injuring 1 marine.
I also think a main factor is that Onos are *BLOCKED* by the smallest lifeforms such as skulks, gorges, lerks, and LA marines. Onos should have a push factor so 1 LA marine cant stop a onos dead in its tracks. They should move where the onos is moving, same goes for the other aliens besidesother onos AND Heavy Armor, now i know no devs are going to bother reading this because S&I forums went to hell but im just venting. just think about it to yourself for a bit before u post something at least....
(this posted in S&I forums, prob only going to be loked at by some CSers whos passing by...)
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I find 3 reasons for the problems of NS:
1) The Economy. 4 RTs for marines means pretty good upgrades and money for guns, 4 RTs for aliens means you might get 3 DCs. Maybe, assuming someone's cooperative. (The economy difference from marines to aliens is what I'm saying, it's horrid)
2) The Types of Play. Marines seem to play the defensive role, where the aliens play the 'sneak-attack' type. While this may seem okay, it is only good for the aliens in the early game. After about, oh, 3 minutes, the aliens lose this advantage more or less as Motion comes into play (Either that or they've locked down the entire map with their excellent marine-eating skill). Generally, the marine defensive role becomes much more fortified, with hive-eating sieges doing all of the work, but for the alien, hiding on the ceiling stops working once they get electricity. Marines have tons of stuff that nullify the aliens, but what is there to at least help nullify the marines?
3) The Tech. Marine tech is easily accessable and pretty hard to lock down. Marine tech helps immensely. MT and Scan Sweep negate about 1/3rd of the entire alien arsenal. HMG and HA negate about another 1/3rd of the entire alien evolutions. The last third is usually stuff like 'parasite' and 'blink.' Alien tech is different. It's not easy to whore up the res to get better tech which is easily lockable by marines. (If you die, you lose the tech, as opposed to marines where if you die you get a fresh grenade) Alien tech doesn't negate anything generally. Maybe carapace negates weapon upgrades and focus negates armor upgrades... a bit... sorta. Otherwise, well, nope.
-- The solution --
Onos faceplate absorbs 100% damage of bullets (With appropriate onos tweaks). And cut back on jetpacks. Maybe have marine upkeep or something.
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I find 3 reasons for the problems of NS:
1) The Economy. 4 RTs for marines means pretty good upgrades and money for guns, 4 RTs for aliens means you might get 3 DCs. Maybe, assuming someone's cooperative. (The economy difference from marines to aliens is what I'm saying, it's horrid)
2) The Types of Play. Marines seem to play the defensive role, where the aliens play the 'sneak-attack' type. While this may seem okay, it is only good for the aliens in the early game. After about, oh, 3 minutes, the aliens lose this advantage more or less as Motion comes into play (Either that or they've locked down the entire map with their excellent marine-eating skill). Generally, the marine defensive role becomes much more fortified, with hive-eating sieges doing all of the work, but for the alien, hiding on the ceiling stops working once they get electricity. Marines have tons of stuff that nullify the aliens, but what is there to at least help nullify the marines?
3) The Tech. Marine tech is easily accessable and pretty hard to lock down. Marine tech helps immensely. MT and Scan Sweep negate about 1/3rd of the entire alien arsenal. HMG and HA negate about another 1/3rd of the entire alien evolutions. The last third is usually stuff like 'parasite' and 'blink.' Alien tech is different. It's not easy to whore up the res to get better tech which is easily lockable by marines. (If you die, you lose the tech, as opposed to marines where if you die you get a fresh grenade) Alien tech doesn't negate anything generally. Maybe carapace negates weapon upgrades and focus negates armor upgrades... a bit... sorta. Otherwise, well, nope.
YES YES YES! So True!
-- The solution --
Onos faceplate absorbs 100% damage of bullets (With appropriate onos tweaks). And cut back on jetpacks. Maybe have marine upkeep or something.
Noooooooooo! Flayra has outlawed all locational effects. :( That means we don't get to do this, even though it does kinda solve the problem.
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Noooooooooo! Flayra has outlawed all location effects.
I have seen many people say that, but never has it been substantiated. Where, exactly, is this decree stated?
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I am pretty sure I was around when he actually said it. I swear. But I have no idea what the name of it was or anything.
Heh heh... There goes any argument I had... :lol:
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ive allways said the worst thing about the HL engine is that you cant get knocked down
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!!!
diablus is on another onos-is-not-strong enough rampage!!!
/me hides
no, seriously tho, i agree. aliens need a MUCH better endgame. onos is too weak; nothing compared to what its 1.04 counter part was. now THAT was a beast to be feared....
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actually, cold-nite, quite the opposite.
the dev team was reportedly looking into the onos-faceplate-absorbs-damage idea the last time i checked
(the above statement has three qualifiers in it, meaning that while it is probably false it cannot completely be disproven :p)
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agree w/ most of what dumb marine said, but to relate to the original post, onos is complete crap period atm, all it does is distract bullets so everyone else can do damage, ie meatshield, which it even stinks at that.. it really needs a ton more hps for the res required, and maybe a way to negate the marines as stated above, a long distance shield or something of the sort, so the marines cna hurt it up close but not from afar, kind of how marines negate 160+ res with one 20 res gl or with siege(s), basically marines have too many counters to aliens, and aliens have no counters to marines past 2 minutes into gameplay(armor1 comes into play, focus is useless, get mt, negates silence)
so agreement to above but i had to post it my way :D
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My choise of action: Bring back 1.04 Onos. That thing was nigh impossible to kill, of course most people will say it's because of the "OGM brokezored hitboxorezes!".
I swear to God, if I had a nickel for every time anybody bitched about Onos hitboxes... Hell, if I had a nickel for every time someone 'tested Onos hitboxes in game', I'd be a billionaire.
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ive allways said the worst thing about the HL engine is that you cant get knocked down
Sure you can get knocked down. Lots of games have 'prone' mode in them to increase your accuracy or whatever. Just do the same thing in NS except make it happen when you get stomped. You fall down, you lower your gun until you get back up. Easiest thing in the world. Make it take about 1/2 sec to fall down and about 1 sec to get back up and be ready to fire again. Decrease the ridiculous stomp range to managable levels. You have perfect stomp.
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gah... bob beat me to it lol.
Actually you could take it further and flip the camera and change the camera viewpoint like when you crouch so you end up stuck looking at the ceiling from an appropriate location. For everyone else the falling over and lying on the floor part could be a simple animation, one that switches you to the crouch hull too =3
Ideally it'd use a corpse hull but we all know about hull limits for players =/
ooh! they could put you into noclip mode, and set your position so you don't fall through the floor! You can still be hit in noclip so that might actually work... so many ideas to test out now XD
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My choise of action: Bring back 1.04 Onos.
Agreed, somewhat...
What i'd perfer would be to bring back the 1.04 oni's lumbering walk/run, where you would start off slowly and build up momentum until you were running at a fairly speedy clip even without celerity.
*sigh*
*Misses the sunken onos rushes*
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The problem with anything that improves the onos is that it unbalances combat in some strange magical stupid way. Of course, I'd rather see combat die a cruel death than have it screw up NS balance, but no one really cares what I think.
Also, HI x-s-z, good to have you on the forums.
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Y'gotta stop being so hard on yourself, Bob, we all care what you think and nobody is ignoring you.
Leaderz0rz and I were chatting on IRC and we both agreed that we'd give up Combat if NS would revert back to 2.01, and the 'dev team'/Flayra would improve the game from there without Combat in mind.
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sure sure, onos is a crappy meatshield.. but who has been winning the majority of games on LM? hmmmmm?
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fade players? =P
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sure sure, onos is a crappy meatshield.. but who has been winning the majority of games on LM? hmmmmm?
Exactly. That's why the aliens don't have as many counters. Marines NEED teamwork to win, and as long as there are pubs, and the "balancing" comes from them, the games will be dumbed down. Instead of making a game that requires a little altering of the CS gameplay mentality, Flayra is going for a game "anyone can enjoy". I don't argue this, it's his game, his way. But as long as that happens, we need to be able to find our own way to deal with it. The onos is now an elec RT eater, and PG killer, a outpost destroyer, and meatshield. That's its new job. It is not meant to attack marine squads, at least not in its current form. Figure out how to use it for the abilities it has, and you'll do fine. Rambo and expect to live against four or five marines with shotties, never onos again...
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I'm with you on that bob who cares if combat gets unbalanced. All I really want to see is a lot of balance in the regular game and forget combat.
as for the one hive onos thing it is fine if you know what you are doing. I've seen way too many players go onos with one hive and die instantly. with one hive and the slower speed of the 3.0 onos you have to enter battle for a little while then leave and go and heal quite often to stay alive. I know that this isn't very effective but it is the only way to be a good 1 hive onos <_<
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I agree with rad4christ.
The aliens have had some role jigging and people still haven't used them for the new roles. (Except perhaps the fade)
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sure sure, onos is a crappy meatshield.. but who has been winning the majority of games on LM? hmmmmm?
A Civillian.
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the main problem with balance is that people dont play their classes like they're meant to, and its not allways the individuals fault,
The onos is supposed to charge with the entire team, them attacking what he cant get to...
skulks are supposed to AMBUSH not doge bullets max payne style and land two bites and die...
Aciv is a fades fade, the reason he is so lethal is cause the class was made to be played like he does, not the LA LMG rines counterpart...
Gorgs are supposed to be fairly fearsome in battle, I.e. using traps, " building two ocs around a corner, luring in a few rines, and spitting at them."
and lerks are played worst of all, their bite is like a snipers knife, not the main attack, but useful in a pinch. Lerks are supposed to ASSIST other large groups...
Now tell me, Its true, an onos running into any MS thats turtled is going down...
But if the onos ran in, with umbra and spore spam, while skulks attacked rines from behind, and fades flew in and out picking people off, and gorgs healing at the rear.... whos gonna win? the 2 hmgs? Negative, Rouge Leader.
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Negative, Rouge Leader.
*sarges voice from RedVsBlue*
"ROUGE leader?!!? what sorta namby pamby sissy pants tart filled weakling taught TSA rine training center did you GO TO SON!?!? i AIN"T using no ROUGE!! and i SURE AS HELL AIN"T FOLLOWING NO LEADER OF IT EITHER!!"
:p
but, yeah, i agree with everything else you said.
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rad4Christ,Mar 10 2004, 04:36 PM] Exactly. That's why the aliens don't have as many counters. Marines NEED teamwork to win, and as long as there are pubs, and the "balancing" comes from them, the games will be dumbed down. Instead of making a game that requires a little altering of the CS gameplay mentality, Flayra is going for a game "anyone can enjoy". I don't argue this, it's his game, his way. But as long as that happens, we need to be able to find our own way to deal with it. The onos is now an elec RT eater, and PG killer, a outpost destroyer, and meatshield. That's its new job. It is not meant to attack marine squads, at least not in its current form. Figure out how to use it for the abilities it has, and you'll do fine. Rambo and expect to live against four or five marines with shotties, never onos again...
your totally wrong there on the onos rambo, the Onos SHOULd be able to take care of itself without the use of other teamtes just like 1 HA can agaisnt skulks, lerks, gorges and even a fade, also teamwork totally screws up the onos gameplay, unless u have skulks attacking while u retreat, or a lerk umbraing u FROM A DISTANCE, then ur going to die, i dont know how many pointless times ive deied becuase my team thinks "healing the onos will save him" im unprediactable as onos, i use it as its built now "hit and run for ur damn life behind a corner", now there has been so many times when 1 skulk or 1 gorge KILLS me, Which causes the end game for aliens, take for instance Nancy's game, i got blocked by 2 gorges trying to heal me in mess hall, i died and didnt have enough res to go onos again. now if i would have lived things would prob have been different and they wouldnt of seiged subspace hive with absolutly no problem. now if u read my long and boring post u would have seen that 3 onos couldnt take 4-5 HA/HMG's and not even kill 2, its total bull^^, 75* 3 against 15+ (whatever HMG is) *4-5, it adds up to about 225 for the aliens who HAVE in fact, thier own res and marines it comes out to about 60-100, now ur telling me 225 is worth it at hive 1?, also gem is correct, mosr games are won by fades such as civilian, not onos. onos are just the sweepers, the giant thing that has to duck in most maps to get around, who dies in less then 1 clip of a HMG. Im quite sick of it, onos is totally worthless at hive 1, besides "killing marine rts" now i seriously doubt that will help when a group of marines go to save it, and as onos skills, us 3 onos all devoured 1 marine quickly, and tried goring the other HA/HMG's which totally failed.
currently onos with the teamwork (who are usually using it as a shield) is suicide and a mistake for the damn skulk/gorge right behind him. And onos "abilities" at hive 1 totally suck, only stomp is what makes the onos worth the 75 res.
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actually, cold-nite, quite the opposite.
the dev team was reportedly looking into the onos-faceplate-absorbs-damage idea the last time i checked
Really? Awesome!! I hope something comes of it!
(the above statement has three qualifiers in it, meaning that while it is probably false it cannot completely be disproven :p)
Aawwwww! I guess I fell face first for that one. :( I found two qualifiers, what is the third? Darn.
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Yes, you can get knocked down, play VS and you'll see Vampires get knocked down when shot.
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Yes, you can get knocked down, play VS and you'll see Vampires get knocked down when shot.
we're not sleek enought to play vampires, silly!
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actually, cold-nite, quite the opposite.
the dev team was reportedly looking into the onos-faceplate-absorbs-damage idea the last time i checked
Really? Awesome!! I hope something comes of it!
(the above statement has three qualifiers in it, meaning that while it is probably false it cannot completely be disproven :p)
Aawwwww! I guess I fell face first for that one. :( I found two qualifiers, what is the third? Darn.
"looking into"
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in breaking news lucas arts are making 'rouge squadron' in response to the massive mispelling of their popular title 'rogue squadron'. From early reports you must lead luke to put on some rather seductive shades of lipstick and makeup, gaining points for neatness and not looking like a tart.
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in breaking news lucas arts are making 'rouge squadron' in response to the massive mispelling of their popular title 'rogue squadron'. From early reports you must lead luke to put on some rather seductive shades of lipstick and makeup, gaining points for neatness and not looking like a tart.
wow wouldn't that be really strange and i know for one i wouldn't play that game unless i was under some kind of hypnosis <_< :blink:
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your totally wrong there on the onos rambo, the Onos SHOULd be able to take care of itself without the use of other teamtes just like 1 HA can agaisnt skulks, lerks, gorges and even a fade,... us 3 onos all devoured 1 marine quickly, and tried goring the other HA/HMG's which totally failed.
You're right, it SHOULD be, but it isn't. Therefore, IN ITS CURRENT FORM, it's useless against multiple marines with upgrades and adequate aim. You can run in, devour, and run out, but at hive one without stomp, that's even asking for it.
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every time you die and there is a gorge around, you ALWAYS blame it on them.
NEWSFLASH: Smart gorges ALWAYS, ALWAYS stay on the side. That time ,diablus, i was closing in a bit further because you were going into the hall, our of healing spray range. you saw a me and IMMEDIATELY blamed be for blocking you.
Its not always the gorge! Leave them alone!
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Ulatoh r = Spelling nub.
That is all.
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every time you die and there is a gorge around, you ALWAYS blame it on them.
NEWSFLASH: Smart gorges ALWAYS, ALWAYS stay on the side. That time ,diablus, i was closing in a bit further because you were going into the hall, our of healing spray range. you saw a me and IMMEDIATELY blamed be for blocking you.
Its not always the gorge! Leave them alone!
Yeah they can blame the gorges all they want, but we give them like 1.5x longer lifespan because of our healing. And yes, the smart ones do stay to the side and parallel movement.
Maybe the onos would rather have no gorge support at all eh?
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Actually, because of the greatly increased health and armor values of the Onos in 3.0, Gorge support is now nearly worthless. They heal far too slowly. In fact, assuming infinite energy, it takes a single Gorge about 60 seconds to heal a nearly dead Onos to full health.
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Gorges should heal a percentage of the unit being healed, not some base number. Honestly that would help alot... Something like 35% - 15% sounds about right. What is it now? 50hp?
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Gorge healspray heals 16 currently (quadrupled versus structures). I believe all forms of alien healing should heal a percentage plus a fixed number. Otherwise, with such a great difference between the health and armor of the higher lifeforms and that of lower lifeforms, they will end up having an enormous disparity between their effectiveness on different lifeforms.
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there should be a way to either beef onos up, or go onos earlier, when he's actually useful... an onos vs. a squad of low-level LMGers = win; an onos vs. just a couple high-level HMGers = mega lose...
maybe make onos cost some low amount like 50, but limit it to one onos on the team at a time?
just speculating...