Overly Chatty Penguins
The Ready Room => Off Topic => Topic started by: Lito on March 08, 2004, 08:33:01 AM
-
Everyone always wants the "truth", which is assuming that there is only one. But the truth is so manipulable, that there can be several truths at one time.
For example, on a rainy day you feel gloomy, and on a sunny day you feel happy. This is a truth, not the truth. All the children are being
brainwashed by children television shows that Sun = good, rain = bad, ie Teletubbies, Barney, etc. That is how we were taught to think, this is how we think.
However, it doesn't always have to be this way. For some people, rain is happy, rain is great, and sun is bad. The desert ecosystem, for example, looks devoid of life because the animals are hiding from the heat, and trying to keep cool. Once the rains come in, they come out, cactus flowers bloom, and the "devoid" desert is now bustling full of life.
The Truth is so easily changed, and thus humans are just as easily swayed. Humans are controlled by thier perspective of the truth, because that is human.
Just my two cents
-
actually the sun/rain associatation is natural, not taught ^^
We have a gland, sometimes refered to as the 'third eye', that sits neatly in the area towards the front of our cranium. Not only does this fun lil thing secrete the chemicals that define our skin and hair pigmentation but it's highly sensitive to light, specifically sunlight. When the weather is dull the organ picks this up and it alters our overall mood, while lots of sunlight naturally lightens our mood.
In some people this lil piece of our biology goes a little nuts and they end up with a magnified version of the natural condition called Seasonal Affliction Disorder (SAD). When you have this it makes you manically depressive if you don't recieve enough sunlight... quite often these people have to replace the bulbs in their house with specially made 'sunlight' bulbs that emulate natural light to alleviate their condition.
Rain's perception is also conditional, even without the teletubbies lol. In a land where it's plentiful like scotland it can be a pain in the rear; it makes the roads slippy, when it's heavy it's uncomfortable and while it does replenish our water reserves and the like we're rarely without water so it's benefits aren't percieved. Meanwhile in the desert where water is scarce it really can mean the difference between life and death. It's needed for crops, livestock and just general drinking.
Sometimes perceptions get mistaken for truths... the effects of light penetrating our atmosphere and other layers making the sky appear a colour and tone often associated with 'blue', the fact rain is what you make of it and that weather effects our mood. Those are genuine truths =3
-
truth CAN be relative, but is not always. truth can also be defined by cultural amores, media induced ideas, family beliefs, religion, what have you.
however, it's incorrect, imho, to say ALL truth is relativisitic/defined externally.
-
truth CAN be relative, but is not always. truth can also be defined by cultural amores, media induced ideas, family beliefs, religion, what have you.
however, it's incorrect, imho, to say ALL truth is relativisitic/defined externally.
^^
with age comes wisdom
[edit]
hi saltzbad
[/edit]
-
You got it all wrong. The absolute truth is I wear pants. Sometimes.
-
With great pants come great responsibility.
And thus another great thread is ruined.
-
And thus another great thread is ruined.
yup, thats exactly why I tried to make this discussion (http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=64540)
-
sun is evil, it makes glare, glare bad for mage!
mage go kill sun now
-
Just remember the whole truth makes you go crazy. We all should learn form the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy and never seek truth
-
hiiiiiiissssss
Natural light!!!!!!
IT BURNS!!!!!
Anyway... Lito IS right about one thing...
Some things we are taught and some things are genetic. For example... I Grew up in the desert (Viva Las Vegas BABY!!!), so i like the heat. I naturally adjusted to my habitat. Now I moved to a colder place, where the winters are generally below freezing. I can't stand the cold because I grew up somewhere hot.
Now... on the other hand... I love snow. Having never really experienced snow, I was extremely excited to see it snowing where I live. This could be a mixture of two things; one being that it's something new to me, so it's exciting. The other, probably better reason I like the snow so much is because around the holidays I always was pressured with the idea of kids having fun in the snow and how great snow must be. People who've lived with lots of snow start to think that it's no big deal... a normal part of winter life.
Fun stuff.
-
Ok this tread is weird ¿ and I love cold weather, was born in New jersey duringa winter month and now i'm living in Miami and I get happy when it's slighty cold.
-
the truth of the truth isn't existant based on what you said, for there is no the truth theres an understanding, so maybe we should just say 'this is what i know' or 'this is how i understand this'
simple version: truth = what you think to be real
edit: i think this makes sense, but probably not, i'll add more later :D
-
which is exactly my point. There are infintisimal numbers of the "same" truth, but it changes slightly with one's experiences, character, etc.
-
Truth is altered by perception, experiences, and other things. The complete truth, encompassing all factors, would be fact. Say there was a ball with one half of it blue, and the other half red. If you were shown the ball, but you only saw the blue half, when you were asked what color the ball was, you would answer with the truth (as you saw it) and say "The ball was blue." This may not be fact, but it is the truth.
Back to the very original example, I live in the Arizona desert, and it rains about 10 days a year, and that is no joke. So, when it rains, or even gets overcast, to me it's a very great day (that is my truth). The fact is simply it is raining.
Truth is merely an unaltered description of one's perception of fact.
-
<_< The more I read this thread, the more I keep thinking about a bunch of aging hippies passing a doobie the size of my arm around...
-
lol, ewww... I wouldn't touch that stuff even if you forced it on me =P
anyways, I've always associated truth with fact to be honest, hence my original post. That's also why I often get annoyed with people for mistaking their opinions to be facts, because I like to hear the 'truth'. An opinion that's wrong... is that really the truth?
Nothing wrong with an incorrect opinion (outside that it's not right ^^;) as long as it's stated as an opinion.
-
i always have difficulties with posts about this, since it's probably been debated upon, and gotten a lot more progress, in academic philosophy. we're like a buncha DoD players discussing NS balance.
as an aside, genetics has nothing to do with how you are comfortable in heat, since you were raised in heat. it has to do with aclimatization [sic]. natural selection used to a be a pet favorite idea to discuss, so if ya wanna go that way, lets :)
-
I think you give academic philosophy too much credit. I've always thought of it as being a course in reading other people's ideas. Course, that'd be good for stopping you from covering well-trodden ground and make some ideas quicker to get across by reference to existing theories (using the DoD/NS example out of context it's like saying 'respawn' then when someone asks you can just say "like in DoD" and they'll know what you mean roughly without undue explanation.)
I took in an interest in philosophy a while back and while interesting I don't think the study of it puts your 'ponderings' above anyone elses... it just makes them a little more informed. After all philosophy by nature is usually devoid of detailed fact and is prominently based more in the misty realms of conjecture =3
It's quite common for people do confuse adaptation with evolution too... the key point for anyone to remember is that evolution/genetics involves reproduction. Adaptation is the term for when an organism changes to suit it's environment, NS is when those with successful genes continue to live and pass them on to their offspring while lesser suited mutations die off =P
-
I think you give academic philosophy too much credit. I've always thought of it as being a course in reading other people's ideas.
Course, that'd be good for stopping you from covering well-trodden ground and make some ideas quicker to get across by reference to existing theories (using the DoD/NS example out of context it's like saying 'respawn' then when someone asks you can just say "like in DoD" and they'll know what you mean roughly without undue explanation.)
naw, i'm not giving formal academic philosophy too much credit, i'm more concerned with the well trodden ground thing. and their language is suited to deal with a schwack of ideas we dont' know about/takes along time to explain.
-
anyways, I've always associated truth with fact to be honest, hence my original post. That's also why I often get annoyed with people for mistaking their opinions to be facts, because I like to hear the 'truth'. An opinion that's wrong... is that really the truth?
Nothing wrong with an incorrect opinion (outside that it's not right ^^;) as long as it's stated as an opinion.
there is no such thing as an "incorrect opinion". An opinion is an opinion. Your opinion is your truth, your take. It can never be wrong, but it can never be right. Therefore, it cannot be considered as a fact.
-
Ok this tread is weird ¿ and I love cold weather, was born in New jersey duringa winter month and now i'm living in Miami and I get happy when it's slighty cold.
There is a difference between "hot or cold" and "rainy or sunny" It can be cold and sunny, or hot and rainy.
-
so if I was of the opinion that the moon was made entirely of irish-recipe sausages my opinion wouldn't be wrong? o.O
-
The point is that you wouldn't be right either. :p
-
lol, sorry but opinions can be correct or incorrect. The moon one obviously being incorrect. =P
The only way the 'no right or wrong' matter can be applied to opinions is where there is not or can not be any solid evidence to prove it either way. That or if you're trying to look at it from the obtuse angle of 'having' an opinion being right or wrong in which case there's no real right or wrong outside of the boundaries of personal morality ~shrugs~
-
so if I was of the opinion that the moon was made entirely of irish-recipe sausages my opinion wouldn't be wrong? o.O
Not unless you go there for yourself and lick a moon rock. ;)
-
it is your right to have an opinion, even if its so blantantly wrong as the example you just gave. The thing is: No one has the right to tell you if your opinion is right or wrong. They may KNOW its right or wrong, but they can't tell you otherwise. I'm not saying that opinions cannot be right or wrong, it just can't be acknowledged as so. Facts are right or wrong. If you're attaching "This is Right" or "This is Wrong" onto an opinion, it immediately becomes a fact. An opinion is NOT a fact.
o·pin·ion
n.
A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.
fact
n.
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences
we all know that your opinion of the moon is blantantly wrong, but once i say that, it becomes a fact, which it is possible to classify as "right" or "wrong".
-
maybe but I just find that justification kinda overly pedantic =/
-
Being "opinionated" is viewed as a negative character trait for a reason.
A good examble is ethics. Take the ever-raging debate on abortion: Everybody has an opinion, and rarely do two people agree. Indeed, finding a solution that is optimal to all parts involved is regarded as unfeasible. To define "right" and "wrong" in this context is equally difficult.
A bad example, on the other hand, is maths. I may be of the opinion that 1+1=3.14 , but such a belief is based on ignorance, not thought, and can be clearly and certainly defined as false. I could claim that I am entitled to whatever opinion I see fit, but that's just stubbornness.
Another bad example is when my opinion differs from fact. Being of the opinion that I am free of debt doesn't save me from my creditors. And insisting in such an opinion is bad for my kneecaps.
-
I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet, so I am going to:
42
-
the answer is simple, I have no right to tell you what you can or cannot do, that doesnt affect me, therefore, you should be free to do anything that doesnt affect me, If i think it is wrong, then I will choose not to do it, what you do is your own affair.
-
I think my third eye thingy has been reprogrammed to accept the light from my computer as sunlight.. it makes perfect sense, Sitting at my computer always calms me :)
-
A bad example, on the other hand, is maths. I may be of the opinion that 1+1=3.14 , but such a belief is based on ignorance, not thought, and can be clearly and certainly defined as false.
To me it indicates that you use a different numeric system, nothing else. There is no one "right" way of counting. For the sake of this argument, you should be able to see the difference between what is a norm for the functioning of our society and what is absolute truth.
Contrary to common perception, there is at any one time only one absolute truth - ironically the most subjective thing, your thoughts and feelings. These cannot be altered directly, and are the only reality you have. What you do with that is absolutely up to you, and noone can say that any one approach is incorrect simply because its less useful (to them). :p
-
A bad example, on the other hand, is maths. I may be of the opinion that 1+1=3.14 , but such a belief is based on ignorance, not thought, and can be clearly and certainly defined as false.
To me it indicates that you use a different numeric system, nothing else. There is no one "right" way of counting. For the sake of this argument, you should be able to see the difference between what is a norm for the functioning of our society and what is absolute truth.
Contrary to common perception, there is at any one time only one absolute truth - ironically the most subjective thing, your thoughts and feelings. These cannot be altered directly, and are the only reality you have. What you do with that is absolutely up to you, and noone can say that any one approach is incorrect simply because its less useful (to them). :p
Agreed. There is a single absolute truth, we only have our own impressions of it.
If we have logically more basis or evidence for our supposition of that absolute truth, I see no reason why that supposition cannot be shared. For example, if I know that 1 +1 is in fact equal to 2, there is no harm in attempting to correct someone who thinks that 1+1=3. In fact, I think this should be encouraged.
I have no right to tell you what you can or cannot do, that doesnt affect me, therefore, you should be free to do anything that doesnt affect me
I most certainly have the right to tell you not to kill yourself, don't I? To try and coax you out of self-destructive behavior?
-
Depends, I think its rather narrow minded of you to assume that a different numerical system, in which 1+1 = pi is unworkable. Who knows - maybe its the solution to being able to quantify circular shapes without rounding (hehe, thats silly as a circular shape is just an abstraction and can never be truely without rounding error by its very definition - but still).
Furthermore, the only good argument you can make against someone killing themselves is that mankind wouldn't really survive with his train of thought - wether you consider it everyones responsibility to contribute to that survival and to what extent or not is just personal bias. No other argument you can possibly make for any sort of behaviour does not negate itself - but usually when discussing truths, we take self-preservance for granted. If we're already going to talk about the abstract that is supposedly the truth, then we'd also have to remove that last bit of unfounded assumption.
And, to top the irony off, that line of thinking has a small benefit in itself : Too often we presume because one way has preserved within reason, there is no other way or other ways are entirely untrue. The least controversial example being a numerical system of your own - any fellow geek here would realize how utterly stupid "1+1 cannot equal 3.14" sounds when I tell them "1+1 = 11", and I doubt they will contest that ;)
We create truths, because its a tool to perceive and manipulate our reality - we make it a truth that things will fall to the ground, we call it gravity. We expand on that - but its still important to realize its just a method of comprehension, not an un-alterable absolute. Hence yes, truth is entirely bendable :p
Bored yet?
I most certainly have the right to tell you not to kill yourself, don't I? To try and coax you out of self-destructive behavior?
Once we ignore legal systems, as much right as you'd have to kill me yourself. All the right in the world :p
-
Depends, I think its rather narrow minded of you to assume that a different numerical system, in which 1+1 = pi is unworkable. Who knows - maybe its the solution to being able to quantify circular shapes without rounding (hehe, thats silly as a circular shape is just an abstraction and can never be truely without rounding error by its very definition - but still).
Furthermore, the only good argument you can make against someone killing themselves is that mankind wouldn't really survive with his train of thought - wether you consider it everyones responsibility to contribute to that survival and to what extent or not is just personal bias. No other argument you can possibly make for any sort of behaviour does not negate itself - but usually when discussing truths, we take self-preservance for granted. If we're already going to talk about the abstract that is supposedly the truth, then we'd also have to remove that last bit of unfounded assumption.
And, to top the irony off, that line of thinking has a small benefit in itself : Too often we presume because one way has preserved within reason, there is no other way or other ways are entirely untrue. The least controversial example being a numerical system of your own - any fellow geek here would realize how utterly stupid "1+1 cannot equal 3.14" sounds when I tell them "1+1 = 11", and I doubt they will contest that ;)
We create truths, because its a tool to perceive and manipulate our reality - we make it a truth that things will fall to the ground, we call it gravity. We expand on that - but its still important to realize its just a method of comprehension, not an un-alterable absolute. Hence yes, truth is entirely bendable :p
Bored yet?
I most certainly have the right to tell you not to kill yourself, don't I? To try and coax you out of self-destructive behavior?
Once we ignore legal systems, as much right as you'd have to kill me yourself. All the right in the world :p
Hmm, if that's the definition you choose to attach to truth, our comprehension, then yes, it is alterable and still might be correct.
However, there is one and only one reality, and there can be only one of those.
And, as I said before, If my view of reality more logically fits the evidence of that reality than yours, why should I not attempt to change your perception of reality?
For example, I know for a fact that a ceramic pot is hot. You don't see it as being hot, so you assume you can pick it up with your bare hands. Would it not be sadistic of me to allow you to try and pick it up?