Overly Chatty Penguins

The Ready Room => General => Topic started by: duherman on December 24, 2004, 11:51:30 AM

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: duherman on December 24, 2004, 11:51:30 AM

This is just an idea but in NS:S the maps are gonna be much bigger, cause of the source engine. So to use all this extra room they should add in a 3rd race, I would like to see what you guys think of this.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Isamil on December 24, 2004, 11:59:35 AM

NO

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Legionnaired on December 24, 2004, 12:41:13 PM

Maps will probably have to stay the same size, because if it were any bigger the aliens would dominate no matter what. Eg. Old Hera.

But yeah, no third race.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: 2_of_8 on December 24, 2004, 12:59:34 PM

Not a third race, but definitely bigger maps.
And yes, with bigger maps, there will be major, major changes to NS. But it'll be interesting!

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: @gentOrange on December 24, 2004, 01:18:36 PM

A 3rd race would ROCK!

Provided they were space pirates who gained health from drinking astro grog and eating interstellar nachos!

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: GrayDuck on December 24, 2004, 01:31:19 PM

:blink: Am I missing something?  How would NS:S = Bigger maps?

And yeah, NS is complex enough.  Definately NO third race.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Dark on December 24, 2004, 03:03:48 PM

i am not for a third race at all and plus as of yet to my knowledge NS:S has not even been confirmed.  i'ld love to see NS:S but well it really isn't up to us or is it  :o

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: A Boojum Snark on December 24, 2004, 03:10:15 PM

I HIGHLY doubt NS will ever be ported to the source engine. Their time is much better spent finishing up NS and working on NS2. I also think that NS:S would be a waste of time as the engine really has nothing to offer other than increased visuals, and perhaps with the physics you could have a slug that carries the hive and then rolls the hive down a hill after the marines..... ^___________^

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Mr.Ben on December 24, 2004, 03:19:21 PM

It'll be interesting to see what happens, it really depends on the ease of porting content (a process i'm not familiar with given i dont own HL2 yet) and how much, if any they'd add to the game. NS:S wouldn't have too much issue recruiting talented people, be it modellers or animators and given that Flayra is the only one involved with UWE it's not totally out of the question he could take even more of a backseat role to allow it to happen.

Only time will tell.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: duherman on December 24, 2004, 07:25:49 PM

Quote

:blink: Am I missing something?  How would NS:S = Bigger maps?

And yeah, NS is complex enough.  definitely NO third race.

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The "Source" engine allows larger maps then the current engine right now. Thus that equals Larger Maps.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Isamil on December 24, 2004, 07:52:05 PM

Allows
Doesn't meen you have to use it, NS maps are big enough as it is.  Most of the HL2 maps don't take up anywhere near the max allowed size.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: A Boojum Snark on December 24, 2004, 08:38:21 PM

Do you realise just HOW big we are talking? max_map_planes errors aside (which you would have trying to make a map as detailed as NS maps are on a large scale), a NS style map making full use of the x/y area available could possibly take ten, twelve, or more minutes or more to get from one corner of the map to another. Whole games sometimes finish in that amount of time now.
(directed at IR, not isa)

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Malevolent on December 24, 2004, 09:15:27 PM

Quote

Maps will probably have to stay the same size, because if it were any bigger the aliens would dominate no matter what. Eg. Old Hera.

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Actually, look at ns_hydrosity. Marines dominate on that map because of the fact that it is large. Marines have phase tech so they can go anywhere they want instantly; just build a pg. Marines will put pgs in key places all over large maps. Aliens on the other hand, cannot defend a second hive easily unless they have movement chambers or their RTs for that matter.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Mr.Bill on December 24, 2004, 09:43:03 PM

Once your map gets big enough, you get as ABS said, Map Max plane error (hit it today, damn shame). You also have to consider how big the maps would be, in mb. Cranefight? not that big, it's 17mb big. Lockdown is 10mb, so unless they get better compiling tools (Oh, I hope so, it's nessesary) Ns maps themsevles would easily be bigger then 20, 30 mb. 30mb per map, well damn, that will be a huge ass download, and downloading custom maps from the server is practically out of the question.

EDIT: Mind you, once cranefight was zipped, it went form 17mb to 5mb, So  theres deffinently improvment for compiling, Im sure

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Legionnaired on December 24, 2004, 10:24:00 PM

Is the max planes limit upped in Source?

There was a fix for it in HL1, I don't see why it isn't possible for another hack to be coded in to optimize the planes.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: duherman on December 25, 2004, 02:04:55 AM

I just realised. You guys got a point there. That's the point of this thread. To say what you feel about this idea.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: TheAdj on December 25, 2004, 03:47:44 AM

NS:S talk aside (Don't ask, because no one knows), use some common sense and logic to figure out some things.  

1) Just because something can happen does not mean it will happen.  Flayra could announce NS2 tomorrow, doesn't mean it will happen.  Apply that same logic to "Maps can be bigger, so they will be".  

2) Marines win on larger maps when travel time isn't very high across the map and/or they have easy access to RTs and/or aliens don't have easy access.  Aliens win on large maps when the travel time around the map is high and/or aliens have easy access to a lot of RTs and/or marines don't have easy access.  

If marines can easily move around, they have a much higher chance of winning.  Marines win hera often, but they don't win nothing anywhere close to as often.  Why, you ask?  Because on Hera I can cap 5 RTs in less than two minutes and on nothing I'm lucky to get more than 2, and it takes 3 minutes to walk to the "good" hive on nothing (viaduct).  On hera it's much easier to get into all of the hives (less than 2 minutes, usually less than that).

3) Do not assume NS:S would be a 100% direct port, or that it's more than just similar to NS.  To list quite a few things that would be quite possible using Source compared to the bastardized Quake 1 engine we're using now:
 -Realistic flight physics on the lerk (Yes, it would absolutely rape.  Divebombing ftw)
 -A general revampment of the movement aspect of aliens that wouldn't be a hack
 -A revamped marine weapons system that was Homeworld2 fighter style
 -Additional marine tech lines that added not only depth, but branches
 -A totally different resource system
 -A different alien tech tree that had more chambers AND more hives

A combination of these would make the game similar to NS, but a totally different game.  Anyone that played Homeworld and Homeworld 2 understands the real type of difference an engine jump can do for a game that was simply a next step for the game world.  All of this would add far more complexity than simply "adding a 3rd race" (which is lol right out of I&S btw, I needed the laugh, thanks).

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: lolfighter on December 25, 2004, 09:35:17 AM

There is ONE very simple reason why a third race is out of the question: Balance. The devs can't even get TWO races balanced out, because they are so radically different. A third race won't exactly make it easier.

Nevermind the problem you run into when you have three sides fighting on one map: It's inevitable that two of them will gang up on the third first, giving them no chance to win at all.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: A Boojum Snark on December 25, 2004, 10:36:38 AM

Actually LF it could possibly make it easier, as you could move more towards the rock-papper-scissors approch. Not completely but that general idea. Although the bit of ease gained in balancing would likely be loss in the rise of complexity in playing the game itself.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: lolfighter on December 26, 2004, 06:31:48 AM

Hmm, that's a possibility. However, rock-paper-scissors means that you pretty much have to chuck all the old maps out of the window, since ALL maps will need all three sides on them. Otherwise, if we have a "rock and scissors" map, nobody will want to play scissors. Not to mention that all competitive matches would have to be threesomes. A third race has some allure, but I don't see it happening in NS.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Crispy on December 26, 2004, 07:27:53 AM

You make a good point. 3 races would effectively maim, kill and bury the competitive scene as we know it, and NS was always designed to have that element in mind.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Clashen on December 26, 2004, 11:06:40 AM

SPACEORKZ

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: UKchaos on December 26, 2004, 02:20:53 PM

People say bigger maps because they think bigger = better. Maps like Agora prove otherwise.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Guspaz on December 26, 2004, 03:51:11 PM

Quote

I HIGHLY doubt NS will ever be ported to the source engine. Their time is much better spent finishing up NS and working on NS2. I also think that NS:S would be a waste of time as the engine really has nothing to offer other than increased visuals, and perhaps with the physics you could have a slug that carries the hive and then rolls the hive down a hill after the marines..... ^___________^

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The whole POINT of NS:Source is to get better visuals. Some of us enjoy NS, but don't enjoy how the day of it's release it look like a 4 year old game despite being brand new.

Ancient engines are bad, mmkay?

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Legionnaired on December 26, 2004, 05:17:05 PM

Quote

-A revamped marine weapons system that was Homeworld2 fighter style

Adj, though the mere mention of that game makes me salivate, could you please expound on it's connections to the marine weapons system? Do you mean as in more specialized roles?

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Hida Tsuzua on December 26, 2004, 05:59:53 PM

A gravity gun for marines would be awesome you have to admit.  Either broken or pointless, but cool.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: TheAdj on December 26, 2004, 07:17:23 PM

In Homeworld2, Relic designed the fighter production system to be more robust and resilient, so fighters were used more and could be effective even after taking casualties.     So what you ended up with were people who massively swarm fighters and they are quite difficult to *Really* kill.  Once a fighter wing's strength started to drop into low yellow or red it usually had 1-3 fighters left, so you had those break formation and return to repair and re-arm, and out flew a completely stocked fighter wing.  Losing a few fighters didn't cost you anything.

This could apply to any future NS game like this:  Instead of dropping a shotgun, you pay a cost and EVERYONE spawns with shotguns.  Or you could assign a certain percentage of people spawning to get a shotgun versus any other weapon, or assign a certain IP to output only marines armed with shotguns.  You wouldn't pay for each shotgun, just a set cost to spawn marines with shotguns.  

Marines could appear in waves landing via dropships instead of spawning from IPs, so the alien objective would be to simply disable the landing beacon and kill all the marines alive to stop them from rebuilding one.  The commander would be paying a price to land a wave with a certain mix of weapons instead of LMGs.  Anything is really possible, and it's quite foolish to simply assume things will work the same.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Legionnaired on December 26, 2004, 09:27:45 PM

Hmm, you could upgrade each marine individually. Hell, that could be done now with classes. It would show up on the scoreboard as 'Shotgunner' 'HM Gunner,' and the like. Could do the same with Jetpacks/ Heavy armor, if it weren't too overpowering.

Things like mines could still be dropped one by one, and welders could be a one-shot upgrade like grenades.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Lightning Blue on December 27, 2004, 09:37:26 AM

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You make a good point. 3 races would effectively maim, kill and bury the competitive scene as we know it

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YES PLEASE.



Guspaz, I totally agree, NS with Source models would be, well, fantastic!

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Niteowl on December 27, 2004, 11:41:16 AM

did NONE of you SUPPOSED fanbois listen to the NS interview where Source was discussed? sheesh!

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Dark on December 27, 2004, 01:05:41 PM

i listened to it and they said that if it was an easy port to source then they would do it but don't count on it just yet

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: -Lancer- on December 29, 2004, 11:56:15 AM

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i listened to it and they said that if it was an easy port to source then they would do it but don't count on it just yet

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ooo, sexeh NS!

I hope it happens, but i agree with the above, it could be a while. I mean, look how long it took for ns to come out on the original HL engine. It could be yrs!!!

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Plaguebearer on December 29, 2004, 05:38:07 PM

More.
Map.
Interactivity.

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: 2_of_8 on December 29, 2004, 07:24:58 PM

We should get a gravity gun in NS:S. I'd love to fling an Onos into a hive and rip it off the ceiling, then have it roll down and squish a few RTs.
*drools*

Title: Natural Selection:Source
Post by: Dark on December 29, 2004, 10:30:59 PM

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We should get a gravity gun in NS:S. I'd love to fling an Onos into a hive and rip it off the ceiling, then have it roll down and squish a few RTs.
*drools*

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this would make the game lame cause everyone would just want to be a marine since they would be unstoppable in any form of the game so i say heck no to a grav gun.  keep the weapons the same but as i've already said don't count on NS:S even happening currently for any length of time