Overly Chatty Penguins

The Ready Room => General => Topic started by: Slink on October 16, 2004, 03:14:33 AM

Title: Idea!
Post by: Slink on October 16, 2004, 03:14:33 AM: All right. As i think everyone knows, the hand grenade upgrade sucks. It's hardly ever used, and it's pretty much redundant. So here's my idea.

Incendiary hand grenades.

You remember when you first played NS, and you no doubt though to yourself, "gee, a flamethrower would be awesome here." The idea of a flamethrow is on the "do not suggest" list in the I&S because it's so cool.

Now, if i recall correctly, the reason that a flamethrower isn't in NS is because they couldn't make one that was both good looking, effected by the area around it, AND easy on the processor. When i say effected by the area around it, i mean that in a big room, the flame spreads out, and doesn't last as long. In a small area, such as a vent, the flame would project much more, and and keep burning longer.

I don't have a whole lot of programming knowledge so please correct me if i'm wrong here. If you are shooting a stream of fire, and you want it to alter it's behavior according to it's surroundings, then it has to re-calculate it's rate of expansion constantly, throughout the entire stream. That would be very processor intensive, and it's understandable that a flamethrower isn't in the halflife engine.

But, if you had a hand grenade spew fire everywhere, it'd only have to calculate once. That'd take a lot less resources. Then it would satisfy all conditions set by the NS team, since it'd look good, be "real-time" fire, and be low-usage.

And really, would you miss the current hand grenade? When is the last time you used one, anyway? The gl does the same job, except it's better. True, hand grenades are sooner on the tech tree, but only if your resources aren't tight, and you aren't researching an advanced armory. In early game, before you have an advance armory, your res is tight, and if you're not upgrading you armory then you should be.

Okay, so those are all the reasons for changing hand grenades to incendiary hand grenades. I'm suggesting this here, instead of the I&S, for two reasons. First, meaning no disrespect to the forum mods, but i think the community here is much better. Second, i remember a thread about a new idea for the fade's blink. I also remember a lot of feedback on that thread, because there was a mod of it, a clear example. Since i don't have the programming knowledge or tools to make an incendiary grenade, i thought i might throw the idea out, and see if someone can whip up an example, THEN we take it over to the I&S and hold it up for all to see (just to prove how cool TLM is.)

Plus, how cool would it be to should "BURN, FATTY!!! and throw your fire grenade onto the gorge hiding behind the oc's. Then you'd get to watch him scream in agony, as his life withers away before his very eyes. Poor gorgie.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Grimm on October 16, 2004, 03:30:37 AM: It certainly is a nice idea, although personally I wouldn't want to see it implimented because the marines are strong enough as it is; giving them another easy way of killing off smaller things, like gorges, is overkill.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Malevolent on October 16, 2004, 09:08:58 AM: That's an interesting idea. But if you put it in, you wouldn't feel like you accomplished as much when you kill a skulk with one. They are so effing hard to aim with.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Dark on October 16, 2004, 09:10:54 AM: it is a lot better than the flamethrower idea; however, i do have to side with grim on this since the rines are getting stronger every new build whereas teh aliens get nothing v_v
Title: Idea!
Post by: tankefugl (in a tent) on October 16, 2004, 12:03:33 PM: Take it to the I&S forum anyway. You'll be sure that the Zunni reads it there -- he goes through everything.
Title: Idea!
Post by: holy_devil on October 16, 2004, 12:12:31 PM: give marines that imo, make it the early structure counter. instead of shotguns the counter everything i win button, be nice to not have hives drop in < 3 seconds :help:
Title: Idea!
Post by: E-Fonzarelli on October 17, 2004, 06:55:29 PM: hand grens are just weak.... they can't do much against a WOL, or much else. If you are lucky, and come across a nub skulk, you might kill it, but otherwise its just useless.

It would be a good idea when researched, to have 3 grens per life, instead of one.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Satiagraha on October 17, 2004, 09:42:46 PM: Quote
It would be a good idea when researched, to have 3 grens per life, instead of one.
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I like that Idea. And/or make them more powerful.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Malevolent on October 18, 2004, 04:19:04 AM: I always thought one hand grenade wasn't enough, too.
Title: Idea!
Post by: EmperorPenguin on October 18, 2004, 11:27:08 PM: They are handy for getting aliens out of vents without having to hand out GLs, and for destroying stuff around corners. I think increasing quantity would definitely make sense, and hopefully bring them back into the game! I miss having grenades, but I dare not ask the comm to research unless we're swimming in res.
Title: Idea!
Post by: DynamicPerformance on October 19, 2004, 02:26:20 AM: Heh >:D skulks burn >:D

I like, actually, i don't think marines are that overbalanced. I find that unless the commander is god, we lose.

So often now people just goof off... sigh...

Dynamicman out...
Title: Idea!
Post by: Squats on October 20, 2004, 02:23:05 PM: I like the idea too. And the idea of giving 3 instead of one too. And the idea of moving shotties to advanced armory too. Taken all three together it seems like it would balance fine. You don't really NEED shotties before you can have an upgraded armory, and an early shotty rush with a good marine team seems to almost always be the win, so making them wait about as long as the aliens need to for hive #2 seems fair, if they can research these new grenades early for countering early skulk/gorge attacks.

I think maybe these new 'nades could work by making an area of fire about the size of an average hallway's width that lasts for like 10 secs and does about 20/sec damage, it would be effective for skulk/gorge control by denying them area to be in but not be horribly overpowered. And if the fire works much like electrified stuff, meaning that you only take damage for being "in" the flames and that it doesn't actually set things on fire, it shouldn't be too hard to code, I think...

I'd offer to help code, but I'm way too busy and would have to learn hl mod coding from scratch....

Good luck...

Squats
Title: Idea!
Post by: Grimm on October 26, 2004, 07:33:19 PM: 20 damage per second is definitely too much, and if each marine had three grenades, they'd be able to cut through gorges and skulks like a hot knife through butter. Not like they don't with shotguns, but that's already being discussed (http://www.lunixmonster.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2179&st=20). You would also have to take into consideration if the damage would stack if more than one grenade went off in the same area, because surely a marine could throw a second and probably the third into an area before the first one ran out. Plus, I wouldn't imagine the marines using it as an area deterrent; I see them all rushing and throwing the grenades directly onto the gorges, and we all know how quickly gorges die to rambos anyway if they don't have any kind of cover or defense through multiple offense chambers.

Three grenades per marine doesn't sound too bad, but including a long-duration, heavy-damage effect like that is too much. 20 damage per second is more than a deterrent; it's a major damage dealer. I know I shouldn't compare different games, but not even the napalm grenades in TFC do that much damage. The idea definitely needs more tweaknig before it could be considered seriously.
Title: Idea!
Post by: EmperorPenguin on October 26, 2004, 10:27:40 PM: I've noticed comms are starting to research hand grenades again on LM, at least on occasion (which is up from never). I for one am quite happy about it, like I've said earlier I think they're underrated.

I mean incendiary grenades would be cool, but the regular ones are just more practical.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Kodiac on October 27, 2004, 06:37:01 PM: I dont know about you guys, but i try to research nades before my armory advances, as with a good team that knows how to use them NOTHING hides in vents anymore. I'd be willing to try this idea, maybe even help. But i dont know anything aobut pragramming/coding/anyhting else, so all i'd do is pting. so yup, i keep checking in on this to see if it goes anywhere.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Seth on October 27, 2004, 08:13:29 PM: whoever said moving shotguns to advanced armory only is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. shotgun is the only defence vs a early fade right now.

whereas handgrens should be equil to or comparable strong as a seige cannon.

ie. 1 HG will do about 65% to a oc

i'd say no more then 2 per life also, dont want this into a omg lets get HG and SPAM them to death game.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Grimm on October 28, 2004, 09:43:11 AM: Offense chambers die quickly enough as it is without a single-shot über-seige, giving the marines such a grenade would really screw any possible alien structural defenses.
Title: Idea!
Post by: fatty on October 30, 2004, 04:00:04 PM: how about we give marines nukes and take out bite, its so overpowered.

please no more ideas that only help marines...
Title: Idea!
Post by: Satiagraha on November 02, 2004, 02:10:01 PM: Quote
how about we give marines nukes and take out bite, its so overpowered.

please no more ideas that only help marines...
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yes, please. But I really do like the idea of multiple handgrenades. The perfect matching adjustment is an early counter, carapace.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Malibu Stacey on November 02, 2004, 06:02:25 PM: Quote
yes, please. But I really do like the idea of multiple handgrenades. The perfect matching adjustment is an early counter, carapace.
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which again forces Defence Chambers as first upgrade, something a lot of people want to get away from.
Title: Idea!
Post by: fatty on November 02, 2004, 09:28:40 PM: Quote
which again forces Defence Chambers as first upgrade, something a lot of people want to get away from.
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agree with stacey.
wow did i just agree with the drunk british guy?

:o
:blink:
Title: Idea!
Post by: Slink on November 03, 2004, 03:38:15 AM: don't worry. it got shut down by zunni.

ouch.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Diablus on November 03, 2004, 04:08:03 PM: Quote
Quote
It would be a good idea when researched, to have 3 grens per life, instead of one.
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I like that Idea. And/or make them more powerful.
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The reason why you don't have anymore then 1 grenade is to promote TEAMWORK.

Then again, Teamwork doesn't seem to exsist for Marines anymore v_v It always seems to be "Ninja PG here, Rambo There, etc"
Title: Idea!
Post by: Legionnaired on November 10, 2004, 02:44:36 PM: What if a grenade leaves a small burning plasma charge? Area denial for a few seconds, keep lerks out of the vents for enough time to take positions.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Grimm on November 11, 2004, 09:31:17 AM: I thought we already came to the conclusion that the marines are more than powerful enough as it is.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Diablus on November 11, 2004, 04:37:15 PM: Quote
What if a grenade leaves a small burning plasma charge? Area denial for a few seconds, keep lerks out of the vents for enough time to take positions.
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I for one think HG's should just be removed. Not made stronger. Because as Grimm mentioned a few times, Marines are already overpowered against Aliens

why make the onslaught even worse? :blink:
Title: Idea!
Post by: That Annoying Kid on November 30, 2004, 12:09:24 PM: marines are only overpowered when they get good tech

I for one would love to see the hand grenade toss have a little more omph to it, so you could actually bounce it off a wall or two, and having 2 per spawn would encourage people to use them more, most people including myself forget that hand nades have been researched.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Crispy on December 01, 2004, 12:20:49 PM: Having more per spawn makes little difference to how much people want to use a weapon. The fact is that Hand Grenades are pants as they are but only need a slight change to make them a viable. Once the NS.com forums are instated I'll be happy to show you what needs changing (there was quite a bit of discussion about this one) but I think it's possible something that needs to wait until the next version.

We all know that Marines are too powerful, the new siege damage will definitely take them down a peg or two so I'm happy with having slight tweaks in beta6 in view of this fact. Everyone needs to stop pressurizing the Devs for more and more changes, no matter how much something gets PTd the real playtest remains with the Pub game (and moreso as the competitive standard is raised). In my opinion it's better to have less, but significant changes than to throw in a bunch of tweaks because the Marines are overpowered. The best changes will be those that really alter the gameplay, which is pretty wooden and monochrome at the moment. A repetitive and irritating archetype is what exists at the moment and it's for exactly this reason that players are growing tired of the 'sameold sameold'.

I'm pretty confident in the NS Dev team reviving NS' gameplay for the next version. I'm also waiting for ns_hulk and ns_source (the map) as possible new official maps for B6... :rolleyes:
Title: Idea!
Post by: [Freemantle] on December 02, 2004, 10:20:50 AM: I think speaking of hand grenades as a balance issue is a moot point until we know what abilities are going to replace the useless ones (Acid Rocket, Primal Scream, Charge, and possibly Xenocide). If they bump acid rocket to 60 splash damage and replace charge with "volcano erupts from ground and burns your flesh!!1" then I think that hand grenades wouldn't be terrible in a pack of 2 of 3.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Malevolent on December 02, 2004, 10:32:52 AM: Xenocide is really anything but unuseful. And if you have three hives, you're probably going to win. Xenocide really helps against an marine advance (usually their last attempt).
Title: Idea!
Post by: Crispy on December 03, 2004, 07:00:40 AM: You seem to be forgetting about a little thing called Combat Mode.

No matter how poor a gamemode you may think it is the Devs still have to balance the game for both ns_ and co_ modes, [Edit] and in Combat Xenocide is anything but unuseful. Primal Scream also rox many, many sox...
Title: Idea!
Post by: lolfighter on December 04, 2004, 07:17:01 AM: Quote
You seem to be forgetting about a little thing called Combat Mode.

No matter how poor a gamemode you may think it is the Devs still have to balance the game for both ns_ and co_ modes, [Edit] and in Combat Xenocide is anything but unuseful. Primal Scream also rox many, many sox...
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In fact, you describe the single biggest flaw in the design of co_, namely the completely, utterly stupid assumption that every little change implemented in one gametype has to go into the other one too. If something works fine in ns_ games but not in co_ games, for heaven's sake, only put it into ns_, and leave co_ alone. Same thing the other way around, of course.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Crispy on December 05, 2004, 10:46:40 AM: Quote
Quote
You seem to be forgetting about a little thing called Combat Mode.

No matter how poor a gamemode you may think it is the Devs still have to balance the game for both ns_ and co_ modes, [Edit] and in Combat Xenocide is anything but unuseful. Primal Scream also rox many, many sox...
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In fact, you describe the single biggest flaw in the design of co_, namely the completely, utterly stupid assumption that every little change implemented in one gametype has to go into the other one too. If something works fine in ns_ games but not in co_ games, for heaven's sake, only put it into ns_, and leave co_ alone. Same thing the other way around, of course.
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Well they usally keep the weapon/ability/class/upgrade effects the same in both so as not to confuse new players. They want to do this to expand their playerbase. They want to do this because Flayra's creating a new company and he wants to draw as many current customers as possible to his new releases. Why? Once again it all boils down to money, and unfortunately sacrifices are frequently made in the quest for a greener life.
Title: Idea!
Post by: lolfighter on December 06, 2004, 04:23:52 AM: I believe in "give the customer what he wants and he'll pay you for it," though. Yes, we don't pay for NS in general. A fraction of us does, though, and the greater the playerbase, the greater the money. And the game continuously seems to alienate its playerbase. The resolve to keep the two gametypes alike may be a question of marketing over design, but I believe that it's a bad decision even from the standpoint of marketing. It's shooting yourself in the foot plain and simple.
Title: Idea!
Post by: Crispy on December 06, 2004, 08:59:31 AM: Couldn't agree more with the statement, but I don't see much evidence of it harming the Classic side of the game. If you prefer Classic, find a server that plays ns_maps.

This tangent seemed to originate from TAK's comment about wanting more HGs ("in packs of 2 or 3") because people forget that they've been researched. The Dev team have said they won't change game elements to cater for a player-side problem.
Title: Idea!
Post by: duherman on December 09, 2004, 07:25:00 PM: That should keep the aliens in the vent.
Title: Idea!
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 09, 2004, 07:47:41 PM: Anyone who things that the alien structures are overpowered has not played alein NEARLY enough... The only alien issues that need to be adressed in my opinion are the unstoppable nessecity of fades, defence first, and lerks ability to pancake (the others all ivolve buffs not nerfs)
Title: Idea!
Post by: Legionnaired on December 09, 2004, 07:52:07 PM: We've been playing MC first a lot lately actually. Works great for saving the second hive, supporting a good lerk.
Title: Idea!
Post by: SwiftSpear on December 09, 2004, 11:20:20 PM: Quote
We've been playing MC first a lot lately actually. Works great for saving the second hive, supporting a good lerk.
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I've Always known MC first is a VERY viable tactic when FF is on... I've pushed for MC first SO many games. The problem is that DC first is dependent tooth and nail on getting the first fade, so it doesn't nessicarily kill you to all go off and rambo at the possible cost of putting up 2nd hive quick... If you don't get the 2nd hive up ASAP in MC first you are screwed as soon as high level weapons hit the map. People just wouldn't change thier playing strategies
Title: Idea!
Post by: Legionnaired on December 10, 2004, 08:46:22 AM: Quote
Quote
We've been playing MC first a lot lately actually. Works great for saving the second hive, supporting a good lerk.
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I've Always known MC first is a VERY viable tactic when FF is on... I've pushed for MC first SO many games. The problem is that DC first is dependent tooth and nail on getting the first fade, so it doesn't nessicarily kill you to all go off and rambo at the possible cost of putting up 2nd hive quick... If you don't get the 2nd hive up ASAP in MC first you are screwed as soon as high level weapons hit the map. People just wouldn't change thier playing strategies
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Good point. I find that one scary lerk can be better than a fade for containment/demoralization/strain on res through meds.

The counter, of course, is an expensive elec lockdown strat.
Title: Idea!
Post by: fatty on December 10, 2004, 10:07:28 AM: 95% of clans
1 fade
2 fade
3 rt / lerk or even fade
4 rt / perma
5 dc chambers
6 hive

us
1 lerk
2 rt / fade
3 rt / lerk
4 mc chambers perma
5 hive
6 fade

worked well in CAL, only lost 2 alien rounds all season with this (3 total if including sensory with tram tunnel on mineshaft, gg tram tunnel)
Title: Idea!
Post by: [Freemantle] on December 10, 2004, 11:14:54 AM: And that's where NS is lacking. Where most games try to at least go for 2 polarized stratagies (If you've ever played warcraft 3, you probably know what I'm talking about), there is only 1 real way to win as aliens.

The winning team is basically decided wholly on who excecutes better.

The alien team needs the 3 minute fade to deny portions of the map to the marine team, and to slow (and usually stop) their offensive advances. If the Fade is good (Slink, Lochness, and a few others come to mind) then the marines will eventually be starved of resources and die.

The marine team needs to get in a good early game resource structure. Then they have minimalistic options based on the skill of their players with shotguns. Using phasegates to move the marine team to points of interest much faster than a fade or two can handle it generally spells doom for the alien team. Siege cannons and HMG seal the deal.

If the alien team actually had a split in winning stratagies, just one, that needed a specific response to be countered, then I believe NS would be a better experience overall. So far, our options are limited between 3rd minute Fade, or waiting it out to go Onos at about minute 4.

The marine team gets to choose between rushing the hive with weapons in hand, or stopping just outside to set up a phase and siege base.

It would take a little reworking to make more varied stratagies viable, more than I think anyone remaining on the NS team is willing to do. I've got things in mind, as usual, but ranting here won't get much done.