Overly Chatty Penguins

The Ready Room => Off Topic => Topic started by: Grimm on July 25, 2004, 09:07:06 PM

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Grimm on July 25, 2004, 09:07:06 PM

THX 1138 (http://www.thx1138movie.com/)

I received a little card advertising this movie while at the Comicon and decided to check it out. After seeing the site and watching the trailer, it seems to be a pretty cool movie. I did some searching on it to discover that it is a remastering of one of George Lucas' earliest films, which he had created as a student at a film school in 1971. It seems to be playing only in specific cities in theatres on August 10th, but the DVD is being released four days later on August 14th.

Along with bringing information about the movie, I wanted to start a discussion about a question that has been in my mind more and more often: What will our future be like? I don't specifically mean all of our individual futures in our lifetimes, but the future of humanity. More and more often, we see movies like THX 1138 and Equilibrium, and books like Fahrenheit 451 where humans are controlled and forced into specific routines for their entire lives and emotions are removed. The ideas are the opposite of what people plan the future to be like; We envision a future where everyone is free to do what they want and express what they want, yet the ideas found in science fiction are slowly becoming more of a reality. Slowly, we are losing our privacy for the sake of "safety". Police-monitored cameras being placed along streets and in parks, ever-advancing identification systems, along with governments passing items such as the Patriot Act all seem to point towards the futures represented in the books and movies we watch and read for entertainment. I was curious as to everyone's views on the issue, or if it even bothers anyone at all. Will our futures be as free and expressive as we dream it to be, or will we be monitored and controlled without any privacy or free will?

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Anarki3x6 on July 26, 2004, 12:50:18 AM

just watched the trailer and wow, looks pretty good, gonna see this when it comes out :)

as for the future.. i dont want to know.

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Slink on July 26, 2004, 05:21:40 AM

... prison transfer from cell block 1138.



Parts of the world are becoming more and more "security over-conscious".  I remember school without security cameras.  On the other hand, it has become easier and easier for a few people, even possibly one person alone, to cause great destruction and harm many people, as seen by 9/11.  It's a trade off.

Because we all live interconnected lives, due to economics and such, we've established rules that we all supposedly agree to live by.  Some of these rules are written down in legal form, and become laws.  An example would be laws governing theft.  Other rules aren't  inscribed in such a rigid format.  These are the customs and practices that make up our culture.  Here's an example.  Recently, we had our 15 year old dog put down.  Now, i've always wanted to know what dog meat tastes like, and this was a golden opportunity.  However, i knew that most Americans classify dogs as pets, and that eating your recently deceased pets is BAD, especially if it's only out of curiosity and not dire need.  As well, my mother is also waaay wigged out by death, and she would have FLIPPED if i'd suggested that.  So, i didn't suggest eating my now dead dog, because it would have broken one of the more unspoken rules of society.

Back to the trade off stuff.  The rules of society directly determine how much risk we're willing to take.  For example, murder is illegal, because we're not willing to death with the risk of our neighbors killing us.  Occaisionally some of us may wish to kill someone, but the law remains because that occaisional wish is far outweighed by the threat of other people killing us.  Laws against libel is a more complicated example, but it's purpose is similar.

Now, all these crazy security measures cut down the risk that people will do somethign destructive.  Atleast, that's the general intent.  Whether or not they actually do that is a complicated discussion, and not the subject of this thread.  That's why there's security cameras in the schools, etc.  The idea is to save us from ourselves.  Which brings the question, "Do we need to save ourselves from ourselves?"

To fuction as an effective society, the basic answer is yes.  Without laws against murder, theft, intellectual property theft, etc, then the basic trust that society functions on would break down.  Without that trust, our money system would probably crumble, and we'd probably revert to a barter system simply to survive.  No guarantees though.  We might not get that much of an economy back up.  That's why we have these laws in the first place.  It's called civilization.

Note how i said that was the basic answer.  Yes, we need these laws.  But what that basic answer leaves out, is how MUCH.  How much risk, or lack of restrictions, are we willing to take?  THAT'S what this whole topic is all about.  Whether or not we're willing to deal with the risk of another 9/11, or something similar.  Whether or not we want that risk, however small or large, versus the oppression and obstruction of increased security.  That's the trade off that i'm talking about, and what society has to make a decision on.  That's what this thread is really about.

Now that we've established that, let's throw in some basic knowledge of human behavior.  In large groups, humans are rarely logical, and are almost always irrational.  Put 30 people in a room, one with a pistol.  Have the person with the pistol shoot someone.  Logic tells us that this pistol has limited ammo, and should run out very quickly.  Should be easy to subdue this nut in short order.  Are people most likey to do that?  No, they'll run screaming and shoving for the door.  The larger the group, the more likely it will behave irrationally.

Bring that back to the topic of this thread.  Last time i heard, there was around 250 million people in the USA.  The total death toll of the 9/11/01 attacks was approximately 3500, rounded up a bit.  That's 0.0014 percent of the total population of this country.  But look at the reaction.  Afganistan, the Patriot Act, and those are the just the big ones.   I don't mean to sound callous to the victims of 9/11, that's not my intent.  My intent is to show how society seems to work, how it seems to respond.  As more things threaten us, be they school shootings, or terrorist attacks, or drunk drivers, more safety measures will be taken.  As long as people vividly remember what caused them harm, they'll tolerate the restrictions that security brings them.


On the good side, i suspect there's a "terminal velocity" to how much security we, as a society, can endure.  Simply put, i think there comes a point when security simply is too much hassle, has too much negative effect on society's ability to produce anything, and is no longer tolerable.  I think that point is constantly changing, because people grow older and forget things.  Or new production methods come about and it's easier to deal with the negative effect that increased security causes on the efficiency of production.

Will we get to the the crazy stuff that some people dream up and warn us about?  I hope not.  I don't think i'd like it much.  Freedom is dangerous, because your neighbors have it too.  But i'm willing to take that risk.  I'm willing to deal with the chance that the next 9/11 might include my name in the list of deceased.  If you did  have those huge security measures like in 1984, if you did have life without that freedom, i don't think life would be worth it.






...on a lighter note, i like cats.

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: lolfighter on July 26, 2004, 06:58:12 AM

A fifteen-year old dog would be inedible. Young meat is far more tender.

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Diablus on July 26, 2004, 09:05:07 AM

Isnt there a book out there extremly similiar to this movie? I dont think its F451 but it was one of my summer reading book choices. This looks quite freaky.

and as for anything like this happening in the future, i highly doubt it. At least if the United States is still in tact because it violates the persue of happiness in ones natural rights. And i doubt we really have to worry about something like this happening in our years, or our chuldrens children's years at that.

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: BOZO on July 26, 2004, 09:48:51 AM

The site is to damn confusing  <_<  HTF do I get the trailer.

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Niteowl on July 26, 2004, 10:21:26 AM

holy CRAP slink, NICE POST!! well articulated :)

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Slink on July 26, 2004, 01:56:29 PM

ty niteowl.  I'd logged on to the internet at about 1:40 am to go play some LM NS.  i thought i'd just check the forums to see what's up.  I looked in one thread.  I wrote a reply.  It was now 4:00 am.   I went to sleep.  Didn't even play any NS. :(  So the compliment is greatly appreciated.

And yes, lolfighter, i realize that young meat is far more tender.  However, puppies have an even greater stigma against harming them, because they're "cute."  And i don't have any puppies around.


but no one has caught the reference at the top yet...

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: BobTheJanitor on July 26, 2004, 02:38:21 PM

Star Wars. Where's my cookie?

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Niteowl on July 26, 2004, 02:58:21 PM

princess leia being moved aboot in SW IV. also! THX sound system is named after the same movie :p

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Satiagraha on July 26, 2004, 03:00:42 PM

Heeyyyy, I was going to say that :p

Oh well, I guess I'll have to give up my cookie :(

Here ya go, Bob: (http://img16.photobucket.com/albums/v47/satiagraha/10.gif)(http://img16.photobucket.com/albums/v47/satiagraha/cookie.gif)

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Slink on July 26, 2004, 07:01:36 PM

You know, somehow i just knew that bob would get the cookie...


On topic, is anyone else going to reply at length?  Or did i somehow magically kill htis thread with my amazing voodoo thread killing talents.

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Grimm on July 27, 2004, 12:13:22 AM

My reply is a bit late since I spent the day at the beach with some friends.

Anyway, Slink made a comment about "Do we need to save ourselves from ourselves", which reminded me of the recently released movie I, Robot. There is an idea in the movie where the oppressive future is put into motion based on the logic that we, as humans, are destructive and harmful to ourselves, and thus must be placed under strict control to prevent any more harm.

On a note about culture and civilization: It is possible that humans could have culturally evolved in a way which would not have turned us into aggressive, greedy beings that would stop at nothing to get what we wanted. If we hadn't turned out the way we did, we wouldn't need as many self-enforcements as we have now. Then again, in any one of the infinite cultural possibilites, we would need different amounts and different kinds of rules and laws for each. But seeing as we are the way we are, I won't get into this more than just to bring up the idea.

As I progressed through the years of high school, the debate between Locke and Hobbs, the issue of "Nature versus Nurture" was always brought up each year. Is it society and how we are raised that determines that we will do "wrong" things, or are we naturally "evil" beings that care only for our individual selves? I think it's impossible for us to determine an answer for the issue now, seeing how far society and culture around the world has evolved, so we cannot test a "pure" society, one which has not been tainted by any of the current ideas and philosophies. Although I originally had been optomistic and thought that humans are naturally "good", but my views have changed in years past as I learn about events in history and events in life today that seem to point towards constant, natural agression and need for violence. However, it could be argued that people are aggressive because there is nothing more to obtain without taking it from other people, be it land or money or belongings; We are constantly fighting for space and items to fill our space with.

Because of this constant agression and need for safety, I do see our futures bleak and controlled with no privacy for the sake of security.

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: rad4Christ on August 04, 2004, 09:30:30 AM

I don't see our future societies as a bleak existence in a white room, but I'm surprised at how accurate this displays current events.

Think about it. Speaking as an American from my perspective, trailer one say's "buy more", and that's all we're about. Americans are so amazed at how other people can be satisfied with what they have, yet we can never be satisfied. From Gap to Hot Topic, or Backstreet Boys to Rob Zombie, Kia's to BMW, we are major spenders. Watching this culture I've learned something very valuable to me. Most people are lemmings. We'll never admit that we are, of course. But look at popular trends. Yeah, I had that chain on my wallet before it was "cool", and I listened to 80's music well before VH1 started showcasing it. But why did VH1 start having a prime time 80's show? Because it became popular trend. And as soon as they started it, 80's nostalgia exploded. You can buy 80's CD's everywhere, remixes and covers of popular songs, Nike and Reebok even re-released the shoes styles. Heck, I saw a Tommy shoe that had an 80's design. Now you can buy 80's games on a joypad that hooks to your TV, and Intellivision, Atari, Nintendo and others are releasing old games on new consoles. Why is it so popular? Because the 80's are so cool? Well, they were cool before the popular trend. I think it's because it was placed as "the cool thing" and people jumped on board. Catching my drift? Why is Britney Spears so popular? Because she's half naked and sings okay? No, there are plenty of Britney's out there. It's because the media mass marketed her. Don't believe me? What about William Hung. He was such a joke, but due to clever marketing, that "joke" is making alot of money.

Now, on a more serious note. Columbine. Kids killing kids. We're looking for answers, media and government pursue blaming music and video games. The masses jumps on the bandwagon, and everyone from Marylin Manson to the creators of Mortal Kombat are under attack. 9/11, we attack Bin Laden because he "had the nerve to attack us." Us. The USA. How dare someone defy our power. How dare someone tell us we're bad. And HOW DARE ANYONE SAY WE CAUSED IT. (/rant) So we move in on Afghanistan, take out the Taliban. Start a good work there rebuilding. We stregthen our defenses and security to keep another 9/11 from happening. Maybe we go a little overboard, but better safe than sorry, especially with millions expecting a change. Then we get it in our heads Iraq is a threat, we all jump on board, we go in. We forget Afghanistan, because Iraq is the focus. Security demands wain, and we look at our new policies and go "eh?" We look at what our decision in Iraq have committed us to, and we say "What?"


We are constantly bombarded with messages about who we are, what we should be, what decisions we should make, and how we should live. From how we dress to what we say, to what we think is cool or not is constantly spoon fed from somewhere. You think you're unique because you're punk, or indie, or gothic? Then why is there a retail chain with clothes just for you? Or that band you think is awesome because everyone else hates it, or it causes debates when the artist is brought up? Then why did they sell millions of records? Because it was marketed as the "buy this CD to piss off you parents" album.

I agree with Slink about the security "terminal velocity". In fact, I think it applies to everything in culture. We jump on a bandwagon (like security concerns), and we ride that bad boy until it's dead. Then we hop on the next one. That's because news, media, TV, movies, radio, politics, they milk it for all it's worth for the profits or popularity. Mediation doesn't exist in today's society. When the Patriot Act, War in Iraq, metal detectors in schools were implemented, it was because lots of people backed the proposal. Now, these people didn't actually weigh the good and bad (few did, but I'm talking about our mainstream populous), instead they took the word of their leaders (President, congress, commisions) and said we have to do it. Now a lot of people are complaining. Why did we go to war? Because you had a bumper sticker that said, "kill Sadaam" and wanted to.

To be honest, with this free society I am disheartened. NOt with lack of freedom, but with lack of use of that freedom. Yes, I have the freedom of speech, to dress they way I want, to pursue the career of my choice, to practice the beliefs of my choice (not really, but that's another matter), and state my own opinions (as in this post), but that is clouded by being told by society how to use it. With all this freedom, people instead want to follow the way set before them instead of embarking on their own journey. It may seem like you have the freedom to choose, but only if you choose the one that society demands. It's like there's negative propaganda about the choices society doesn't deem acceptable. As a Christian, you wouldn't believe the battles I have to undertake when talking about my beliefs, not from a law that restricts my faith, or even answering for the mistakes of other Christians, but from the ignorant stances most people have against Christianity fed to them by society.

As a youth minister, I am amazed at how easily teenagers are swayed into simple things about what's cool to wear, or serious things about what's right about sex, faith, or who you have to be to fit in. I see it in this board, in IRC, in real life. It's everywhere. Some people are completely oblivious to it, others are aware of it, some avoid the mainstream devices and find "alternate" lifestyles that are still preprogrammed packages to follow, and yet others try to avoid it to the point it alienates them. It's hard to say you're unique anymore, because in reality most cases are that you've chosen a path, that although it may be less trodden than others, is still a path set before you none the less.

So, are we in a futuristic society that watches our every move, tells us how to live, and refers to us by just a number, (or a credit report :blink: )? Do we live in a free society where we have the full freedom to be who we are, live how we want, and be respected by others for our right to decide? Or do we live somewhere in between, where reality and illusion intertwine, and it's not quite that simple to put a finger on it?

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: BobTheJanitor on August 04, 2004, 10:11:29 AM

Well said Rad. That very much deserves this (http://bob.thezazi.net/s5.wav). It also deserves a much longer response than I could possibly write out at work right now. I agree with a lot of what you said. Short version is the world is spinning around the drain and I don't see any chance of things righting themselves anytime soon. But then again, it's probably been like that since long before we were around. I'm still holding out for armageddon and then end of the world as we know it within our lifetimes. It'll be something neat to tell the grandkids about. (don't point out the contradictions in my statements, and I won't kick you in the knees)

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Malevolent on August 04, 2004, 12:57:12 PM

That is the most annoying site ever created; how are you supposed to accomplish anything on it?

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: BobTheJanitor on August 04, 2004, 01:56:40 PM

Quote

That is the most annoying site ever created; how are you supposed to accomplish anything on it?

What?  :help:

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Satiagraha on August 04, 2004, 02:08:29 PM

Quote

That is the most annoying site ever created; how are you supposed to accomplish anything on it?

[snapback]24919[/snapback]

I agree, I don't get it... You go to the website, and... and... and... and you do what exactly?

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Malevolent on August 04, 2004, 04:22:10 PM

Quote

Quote

That is the most annoying site ever created; how are you supposed to accomplish anything on it?

What?  :help:

[snapback]24927[/snapback]

It's a  Flash site from hell! The site just has all these words flash all over the place, seeing if you can click them fast enough. :p

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Grimm on August 04, 2004, 09:07:38 PM

I like the layout, it's creative and original and does something unique as a website without having any of the annoyances of websites that try to look 'cool' (Nav menus that scroll up and down the screen with you, the clock that follows your mouse, etc).

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Satiagraha on August 04, 2004, 09:17:51 PM

erm... that's wonderful Grimm, but how do I interact with it?


The buttons keep running from me :(

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: BobTheJanitor on August 04, 2004, 09:41:54 PM

OH! You were talking about the original link. The thread had veered so far off into the meaning of life subject that I'd forgotten completely what the first post said. That's why when I saw what appeared to be a response to my post with you talking about a link, Malevolent, I was quite confuzzled.

Title: Thx 1138
Post by: Malevolent on August 04, 2004, 11:08:47 PM

Yup, yup. It always happens in threads, though.