[Onos learning curve is expanded:
IMO the answer lies in damage variabled hitboxes, similar to how the head hitbox does more damage to the player in CS if hit in the head. If you look at the onos hitbox in model viewer, you would knowtice that it has a huge fat hitbox on its head that covers most of the front of its body. What I propose is just that we assign that hitbox to take 1/4 of the damage the normal hitboxes take, as well as decreading the damage that the leg hitboxes take. Create a condition where a good onos can suck up insane ammounts of damage by aligning his playermodel skillfully and properly, while a good marine will still be able to feed an onos his butt by finding ways to flank the thing with high damage weapons. In order to compesate for the seemingly insane buttet resistance we have just given a good onos, it should go without saying that his health and armor would have to be decreased to some degree, and perhaps his res cost could increase in NS mode and/or his point cost could increase in combat mode.
^^
Onos in 1.xx was an inane tank, it literally instilled ph34r into the other players when I would onos during the lan games at school, and then I could singlehandedly take down MS while dealing with a bunch of marines.
now you just get swatted with the quickness :blink:
I remember when I thought the buffs to the onos health and armour around extreme, but now they look as if they really didn't help. The onos is slow and easily killable, it's not the tank that it was.
anyone remember the 1.0 changelog that discribes the onos as the "nice knowing you" lifeform.
shoot for something like that
[snapback]42375[/snapback]
I would like to see a hive 3 onos go back in that direction, but since you don't need hive 3 to get the onos any more, I think an expanded learning curve is the best we can shoot for without giving the game to aliens as soon as they get onos every round.
Remember, in 1.x is was hard to simply get the onos, and once you did the game was basicly over. 3.0 doesn't really move in the same direction, but I think elements of that style of gameplay are returnable with proper weapons put in the hive 3 slot anyways.
I think the onos would be much better off if it took considerably less damage on it's headplate. Something like a tenth of normal damage would do it. After doing that, the onos reverse speed would need to be lowered. This would help kill the hit and run. The onos would become a frontal assault unit behind which all the other aliens could swarm. What could possibly also be done is have the headplate block 80% damage at hive 1, 90% damage at hive 2, and 100% damage at hive 3. The onos would basically become a tank, having to watch it's backside, but being able to take incredible amounts of punishment from the front. The abilities devour and stomp would also need to be changed, but I lack decent ideas for how to change those.
[snapback]42384[/snapback]
The lowered reverse speed thing is an excellent idea. Making a lifeform not have to depend on hit-and-run is tricky, and I believe this is the best idea I've seen in a while to do it. This particular one might require an onos-regen nerf.
HD, you make very good points, and I agree with all of them. However, you must realize that aliens must use teamwork as well; they cannot depend on one skilled fade/lerk/skulk/onos to win them the game, or even SEVERAL of these skilled lifeforms. They must work together, and I'm not saying that this is not being done - but it should be done more.
People expect Marines to cooperate to win, and Aliens to win by moving around alone and whatever. Not how it should be - teamwork should be essential as well.
Reminder, I'm not saying that it's not existent in aliens - but it's not present to a large enough extent.
I'll post more when I get home.
[snapback]42391[/snapback]
sorry, this one is too easy do destroy. yes, aliens need teamwork too. but the fact is MARINES CAN SOLO EVERY LIFEFORM. 90% of the time if you get two fades trying to work together, they'll end up getting each other killed, since they collide so easily. sure, it works fine for when one does marines other does structures or something, but that really isn't compareable to marines focusing fire on a fade.
as well, team work for aliens is different from marines. this is something no one seems to grasp. for aliens, it means guarding the gorge building rts, having a scout skulk who parasites, and the fade trying to hold whatever needs to be held. as well, keeping the marines busy while not killing them so the onos can go take out the advanced armory. teamwork for aliens.. is team work, but it requires so much more effort, but they can get a lot more done, so its an effort=gain thing.
i always liked the suggestion that a solo marine has sof on him. it should be that way- teamwork to get anything done as marines. but atm, a good jper or ha can solo any lifeform. except onos vs ha, depending on if the ha gets hit by stomp etc. but literally, hmgs + multiple marines = INSTANT DEAD TARGET. throw catpacks in, and its just freaking sad. lifeforms drop entirely too fast. then you'll say get a few in at once? no, it does not work.. skulks drop too fast, everything just owns them. lerks are purely support when it comes to them not being solo or its late game, they just can't handle the damage. umbra is a nice thing, but requires a lot of adren to keep it up, which is rare to have. then you can just waltz up and kill the lerk thats doing the umbra and its gone. then everything is cake to kill.
so yes, aliens need team work. but its not marine team work. alien life forms need to be able to live for more than one second. hives need to live for more than 2. then work from there. a fps/rts should not be THAT fast paced. everything needs a damage nerf imo, its more fun to have a fight take a while than to have everything die instantly.
I personally still feel that the onos is the most broken part of NS ATM, but after a long talk with Zunni alot of other things came to mind. He mentioned that he felt that MT was fairly problematic in the current build, and he also mentioned how he thought the hitboxes needed some major improvement.
If I could change one thing about NS all it would be would still be to add a damage resistant hitbox to the onos. But still, what else what else do you think needs major improvement if not more improvement then the current onos
Opinions?
as for that, onos just shows how much damage the marines can do. check its hp, it dies fast even with cara vs hmgs or shotguns. imagine that on every lifeform. thats how it is with fixed hitboxes, i'd imagine. damage needs to be nerfed badly, and hitboxes improved, before we can see what onos needs, imo.
I don't understand why you people are so against PG rushes.
It takes a while for anyone to get from MS to the hive and build a phase gate there. Just have SOME activity around these areas at all times - even 1 gorge moving around, or a lerk flying in and out every few minutes, maybe a skulk spawning and checking for any marines in the vicinity. Scouting is not hard; and sure, there ARE times when ninja rines can succesfully build a phase gate, but guess what, **** happens.
Some scouting fixes any problems you might have with ninja phase gates.
[snapback]42428[/snapback]
can't ask for scouting when the majority of the marine team is setting up siege at one hive, meanwhile one gets a pg up in the other hive, and voila you're screwed.
Until today (before I really put some thought into it) I wasn't a big proponent of the 'unchain the chambers' movement. But maybe that's what needs to happen. :/
[snapback]42455[/snapback]
likewise, but now thinking about it, i overlooked this. unchaining them coudl very well fix a lot of the aliens problems. they would be able to counter-tech marines, like marines can counter aliens. would be a STRATEGY(gasp) game, and still reliant on skill. beat the hell out of b5, and b6(doubt b6 is changing the game at all, sadly)
I like the 'activated' phase gate idea. Anti marine, no more randomly phasing all over the map for your entire team. Pro marine, no more phase time wasted at the wrong phase when you need your entire team somewhere pronto.
Most of the 'overpowering' things in my opinion come from the Observatory. I mean 'cmon: Motion Tracking, Phase Tech, Scan, and Beacon, not to mention auto-detection of enemy structures and auto-decloaking in it's radius?
Maybe an increase in Obs price, build time (and corresponding upg to HP), or just the individual powers that need tweaking.
[snapback]42533[/snapback]
'tis a good point, marines rely on the obs royally. mt is the only real big problem, but mt rushing at the start leaves marines open against sensory focus, due to lack of a1, which is obviously a very bad thing.
i'm very happy people are finally going sens first >_< such a great and useful chamber. sof is required, its like having a marine team without mt until the game is over. focus just amplifies fades, and makes their survivability much greater. onos gets sof, again increasing survivability.
honestly i must admit i was very wrong about 3.0. lot of very nice changes in a simple form, didn't seem too helpful. shotguns are still very strong against hives, but the fact that people get sensory(and it gives sof across entire map) is GREAT. finally its a competition instead of multiplayer "Thief".
but alas, its required sensory to be any fun. seems wrong, and as someone suggested, is brought back to unchaining the chambers. that, honestly, would fix a lot of problems. the res cost itself would balance it, i'd think. uber cloaked walls of lame wouldn't matter, since you haev sieges + gls, and if aliens have the kind of res/time/are allowed to do that for the 30 minutes it takes.. =p costs half the res to siege it anyway.
...
Or have it only update every 3 seconds (maybe more) or so, so a quick skulk can close the gap without you knowing it.
[snapback]42617[/snapback]
That sounds like the best idea I've heard. Simply, decrease the refresh rate. 3 seconds or whatever, combined with the other ideas as to levels, etc.
Maybe also have the refresh rate decrease with distance from obs. So let's say observatory is in MS; refresh rate RIGHT by the obs would be a minimum 1 second or whatever. It would increase, maybe even exponentially, so that at a hive location it would be 30 seconds, unless a Marine is nearby. If Marines are there, then the refresh rate would be higher (3 seconds?).
Recap: close to obs = high refresh rate
far away from obs and marines = very low refresh rate
close to marines = average refresh rate
Mmm?
I think I am voting for the unchaining of chambers as well; would introduce more strategies, and would make the alien tech tree closer to the marine tech tree: both can research everything at once (d + m + s / a + w + mt + pt + etc).
[snapback]42539[/snapback]
Bah, unchaining chambers IMO is going to far. The alien and marine teams shouldn't have similar tech trees, they shoudn't be clonelike whatsoever. The game is better if they stay as different as possible, but still allow both teams as much options as possible.
I think I am voting for the unchaining of chambers as well; would introduce more strategies, and would make the alien tech tree closer to the marine tech tree: both can research everything at once (d + m + s / a + w + mt + pt + etc).
[snapback]42539[/snapback]
Bah, unchaining chambers IMO is going to far. The alien and marine teams shouldn't have similar tech trees, they shoudn't be clonelike whatsoever. The game is better if they stay as different as possible, but still allow both teams as much options as possible.
[snapback]42639[/snapback]
Yeah, Swift does has a point.
It kind of reminds me about Warhammer for PC. A lot of the races are too similar.
Aliens should not be close to the marines at all.
Allowing a ninja PG to go is a total failure by the alien team. On public you obviously lack co-ordination and communication like that of clan play, however that is no excuse for laziness. Firstly, you have an amazing tool called 'parasite,' i'm sure some of you have heard of this though most neglect to use it (the number of times i've just camped somewhere and frag whored without getting pare'd once is shocking). You parasite every marine you see and there should be 7 yellow dots on your screen at all times.
You then need to use another tool called 'the minimap' and need to learn to read and understand NS gameplay. Saying you can't scout one hive because you're defending the other, and then losing the hive you didn't scout is just retarded. Have your mini map up, see where your team, see the open routes, check them yourself. It's just laziness to not do it, especially if you can bunnyhop and the only person to blame if the hive goes down is yourself.
I know in clanplay, if we get ninja pg'ed then we've done something wrong and didn't do our job. It happened the other day on ns_veil, we were totally dominating and we missed a marine sneak out WSL side and get a PG up. That was a failure on the player(s) we had scouting WSL, not the game. Don't play the blame game with your failures, learn from them. We won't get ninja pg'ed like that again (i hope!)
Aliens have recieved a serious buff this patch. If you don't believe me then watch #lessthanthree play #knife on ns_veil in b5 and see marine domination both ways. Watch it on b6 and see alien domination. Unchaining the chambers would just be a step too far.
MT is an overpowering upgrade, yes. But it's 35 res and 2 minutes worth of research time, if you rush it you can't get early a1 and you probably forfeit getting an advanced armoury too. I think removing MT from the hud and having it just on the minimap would be the best way forward. Either that, keep it on the hud but allow walking skulks to not show up, and turning skulks shouldn't be on there either. Removing it entirely though just limits the options available to marines and narrows the tech tree.
[snapback]42733[/snapback]
It wouldn't work while the marine res flow is so slow and pressured like it is at the moment. but if some of the costs of other structures and upgrades were decreased I think a 3 level motion tracking upgrade similar to the armor or weapons upgrades could be extreamly nice. There is no reason a decked out marine team shouldn't be able to skulkhunt like the skulks can rinehunt with SoF, but there is also no reason the rines should be able to motion track so early in the game when EVERY alien is a skulk still. The early game should be ambush time.
Well, as I heard, beaconing should weaken you for a few seconds, giving skulks enough time to get the phase gate. After all, why not have a downside to having all your marines spawn at once?
[snapback]44674[/snapback]
a loss of 15 res and all your ninjas being sucked out of thier positions?
Meh, maybe that's not enough.
And why would you have ninjas during a PG rush in the first place? :D
[snapback]44689[/snapback]
So when you lose your PG you can instantly shotty rush the other hive?
[edit] I've seen decoy PGs used several times in LM... We usually figure it out pretty fast, but sometimes we fall for it and end up eating an arseload of shotty fire.
Never trust a rush that looks like all the marines are moving in the same direction. They are often very tricky.
What gave you the idea that aliens need help?!
[snapback]47900[/snapback]
The fact that they are still stuck in an optimized chamber build, even though it's much closer to breaking out then it was pre 3.0f.