Author Topic: Fahrenheit  (Read 5006 times)

February 24, 2004, 03:52:25 AM
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lolfighter

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No need to read this if science means absolutely nothing to you. Nerdy discussions ahead. You have been warned.

Soooo...

Where to begin? Ah yes, disclaimer: This is not a Europe vs. America, Metric vs. Imperial or Celsius vs. Fahrenheit discussion. While all those topics are in themselves good stuff for discussion, they unilaterally lead to flaming (at least on the internet). Do that here and I might suspend you for a week just out of spite.

Always feels nice to be threatened at the start of a discussion, ja? Dein leapen!


Ok, so the deal is this: I know of three measures of temperature. No wait, that's not true, I know of four. But I don't count rheamyr (sp?), nobody uses that anymore.
Ok, I'll try again: I know of three measures of temperature. Celsius, fahrenheit, kelvin. Of these, I understand how two of them work - celsius and kelvin. Dr. Watson will tell you that this can only mean that I have no idea what this fahrenheit business is all about, and he'll be right. So I'd like some of you people who evidently DO know (at least the californians must know, you're complaining about temperature all the time) to tell me. Simple. To clarify a little, I'll show you how I'd prefer you to explain it to me by explaining to YOU the sublime and mystical arts of celsius and kelvin. Just in case you were wondering about celsius or kelvin, like I about fahrenheit. Observe:

No wait, hang on. *ahem* "I'd like to apologize, in advance, for any bad wording on my part. I've never been taught maths, physics or chemistry in english, so I have no idea what all these technical expressions are in english. I'll try to do my best at being as coherent as possible." There, now carry on.

Celsius:
One of the most abundant substances on earth (on the surface that is, below it's a different matter) is water. Not only that, but abundance of water is one of the conditions for life as we know it. So water is naturally suited as a point of reference. Even if you've never seen the sea (which is a damn shame. And yes, you'll go "oh, it's THAT big..." when you see it), chances are you still know what water is.
When you measure temperature in degrees, you need to define two things: A neutral point (that is, at what temperature you place zero degrees) and in what increments you measure the temperature. With celsius, we place zero degrees at the point where water freezes. The temperature at which water turns from liquid into solid form. Zero degrees.
Now we need to define the increments. So next, we take the boiling point of water, the temperature at which water changes from liquid into gaseous form (commonly known as vapour or steam). We say that this point is at 100 degrees, and so we have defined the celsius scale. Freezing point 0 degrees, boiling point 100 degrees. Normal human body temperature: 37 degrees.

Kelvin:
Kelvin is really just a derivative of the celsius scale, but commonly used by scientists. Kelvin uses the same increments as celsius: When temperature increases by one degree celsius, it increases by one degree kelvin as well. When temperature decreases by one degree celsius, it decreases by one degree kelvin as well. The difference is in where we place the neutral point: Zero degrees kelvin lies at the absolute zero, the lowest possible temperature. Or -273 celsius (approximately). Equally easy is the conversion from celsius to kelvin and back:
Celsius + 273 = Kelvin
Kelvin - 273 = Celsius
Freezing point 273 degrees, boiling point 373 degrees. Normal human body temperature: 310 degrees.

So, how does fahrenheit work? And what are the freezing point, boiling point and normal human body temperature in kelvin? All I know is that paper burns at 451 degrees fahrenheit. I guess Bradbury's had a hand in that. Anyone care to enlighten me?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2004, 03:54:18 AM by lolfighter »

February 24, 2004, 04:28:36 AM
Reply #1

Malevolent

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Freezing point for F is 32 degrees. We consider it nice/hot out when it's 70+, but the upper 80s is when it gets kinda too hot. If we get zero or below, it is very cold (since water freezes at 32 degrees).

EDIT: Read some more of your post. 98 degrees is the normal human body temperature in F.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2004, 04:30:46 AM by Malevolent »
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February 24, 2004, 05:43:05 AM
Reply #2

Dirty Harry Potter

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Thanks to the TI83+ silver edition, and its Unit converter I've found out, that:

Celsius * 1.8 + 32 = Fahrenheit, or...
Celsius = (Fahrenheit - 32 / 1.8)

what I would like to know is why ? Kelvin and Celsius each have their 'reasons', but what about Fahrenheit, what concept is it based on ?

just to make sure I'm not breaking the rules... I'm not flaming, I just want to know  :) .

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February 24, 2004, 05:54:49 AM
Reply #3

Bogglesteinsky

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Farenheit's zero point is based on the work of a solitary scientist, trying to get water as cold as possible without freezing. He added lots of salt, cooled it down, and, at the point it started to freeze, he called that zero. Unfortunatly, he forgot to record the details of his experiment, so his efforts cannot be reporoduced. As for the other end of the scale, he took body temperature to be 100. Unfortunately again, he had a slight fever at the time he took his temperature, so that end of the scale is off by about 2 degrees.

So there you go.

February 24, 2004, 06:36:17 AM
Reply #4

Lito

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that sounds like a bunch of bs to me.
Your history/science textbooks probably got that off the intarweb.
Not that i'm saying that he didn't do those things, but i mean, c'mon "He had a fever at the time?" what are the chances of him having a fever, and, more importantly, people knowing about it.
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February 24, 2004, 07:02:16 AM
Reply #5

Malevolent

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Also, Fahrenheit (however it's spelled) used to use mercury instead of water like Celsius. I don't remember what it uses now, but it was changed for safety reasons (since mercury isn't that safe).
It's twice as clear as heaven and twice as loud as reason.

February 24, 2004, 09:09:33 AM
Reply #6

BobTheJanitor

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As far as the mist shrouded legendary origins of the farenheit scale, I can't tell you much. The reason, however, that it's hung around here for so long is that it's a pretty good system for measuring weather temperatures. Celsius on the other hand is more useful for scientific work, with a 0 at freezing and a 100 at boiling. But put weather temp in celsius and they'll range from somewhere around -20 to +40. Kind of an odd range, and rather small. Whereas normal weather in farenheit tends to range from 0 to 100. Negative temperatures are the extreme that they imply, and temperatures greater than 100 are also quite extreme. From a scientific standpoint it doesn't really make sense, but from a man-on-the-street point of view, it just sort of feels right.

Also, we like to split things up in easy to read chunks of info. So if you tell someone 'it's in the 60's today', they know generally what you mean and can dress accordingly. Whereas in celsius, you can't really tell someone 'it's in the 20's today' as that implies a range of temperature from our 70 up through our 90. I guess you must be more exact with your temperatures over there.

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February 24, 2004, 09:21:43 AM
Reply #7

Black Mage

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a question.

assuming all + are 'hot' and all - are 'cold

on the C or K scales 50 is twice as hot as 25
on the C scale -50 is twice as cold as -25 (K has no negative)

but with 32 being freezing on the F scale would 34 be twice as hot as 33 (using the difference between the number and the freezing point?)
seeing as how 64 cannot be twice as hot as 32 as 32 is the freezing point and therefore zero (relative to the freezing point)

my question. in F what is twice as hot/cold as 25?
50?
-14?
other?

and does the F scale have any nonaddetive relativity?

February 24, 2004, 09:48:13 AM
Reply #8

Sancho

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Well I would assume so since it has a direct conversion to C.

I'm late for class so I can't elaborate more...... :o

February 24, 2004, 08:44:51 PM
Reply #9

Black Mage

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yeah, so does anyone know what twice as hot/cold as 25F is?

February 24, 2004, 09:35:58 PM
Reply #10

sonic

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A picture of celsius, the communist hammer and sickle, the canadian maple leaf, all on a background commonly associated with an oppresive, genocidal ideology? Not funny in my book.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 02:19:19 AM by lolfighter »

February 24, 2004, 09:36:20 PM
Reply #11

BobTheJanitor

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Uhm... I'm not sure there is such a thing, BM. Hot and cold are relative terms. Whereas twice something is an absolute term. Twice 25 is 50, but that's not really 'twice as hot' as 25. So really... your question makes no sense. And for that, I scoff at you. Scoff, scoff.

Edit: Sonic = the new tenant of my heart, forever and ever amen.

Bonus re-edit: What about the canadian maple leaf! It's red on white too. THOSE COMMIES!
« Last Edit: February 24, 2004, 09:38:51 PM by BobTheJanitor »

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there are a lot of aaaa...mmmmm.... "HAPPY" pirates on this ship. -GrayDuck

February 24, 2004, 09:50:52 PM
Reply #12

sonic

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:p  ^_^  ^_^

February 25, 2004, 02:24:05 AM
Reply #13

Bogglesteinsky

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Quote
that sounds like a bunch of bs to me.
Your history/science textbooks probably got that off the intarweb.
Not that i'm saying that he didn't do those things, but i mean, c'mon "He had a fever at the time?" what are the chances of him having a fever, and, more importantly, people knowing about it.
that may be, but unless you some evidence to back up your claim, your claim is just as much "bs" as mine is. And, until you come up with a better explanation, my claim is the best (only) one that has been offered.

In the words of Arnold J Rimmer, 2nd Technition aboard the Jupiter Mining Corporation's ship Red Dwarf, "Don't knock it until you've tried it".

(edit: on a more interesting note, -40 degrees is the same in both farenheit and celsius)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2004, 02:25:01 AM by Bogglesteinsky »

February 25, 2004, 07:00:39 AM
Reply #14

BobTheJanitor

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http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a891215.html

True, maybe, maybe not, interesting nonetheless.

Mentions nothing about nazis, canadians, or communists however.  :(

Lunixmonster: Banning the NS community one smacktard at a time. -lolfighter
there are a lot of aaaa...mmmmm.... "HAPPY" pirates on this ship. -GrayDuck

February 27, 2004, 02:23:00 AM
Reply #15

lolfighter

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Thread cleaned up to stay a little closer to the original topic. That link was really neat though. Thanks to everyone who contributed with something meaningful.

Quote
These thermometer guys, what gets into them? Must be too much mercury exposure.

February 27, 2004, 03:55:49 AM
Reply #16

Uranium - 235

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You 'cleaned up' my post that mentioned that Farenheit was more the twice as accurate at hitting temperatures then Celsius was :(

February 27, 2004, 01:03:38 PM
Reply #17

ShootBang

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The truth is... Celsius is probably easier to understand and figure out. But us Americans are so used to Fahrenheit that it would be kind of difficult to change now. That... and we're too stubborn to change.

And no, 0 and 100 degrees don't mean anything in Fahrenheit, but what difference does it make as long as I know what the boiling and freezing temp. is?

Arnold, Win? But he's still.... Only human

February 27, 2004, 01:23:35 PM
Reply #18

BobTheJanitor

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Well 0 and 100 don't intentionally mean anything, but they do work out quite well to be the extremes of normal temperature in most of the world.

And LF: As far as offensive imagery and such, I'm of the opinion that by mocking and making light of these things, when possible, it removes any "power" that they have. While I can understand that sometimes it's hard to balance the humor with the offensiveness, I still think that by cringing when these things are brought up, we lend them more 'respect' of a sort than they deserve. But I guess that's more of a discussion that deserves its own thread.

Lunixmonster: Banning the NS community one smacktard at a time. -lolfighter
there are a lot of aaaa...mmmmm.... "HAPPY" pirates on this ship. -GrayDuck

February 28, 2004, 01:31:31 PM
Reply #19

Satiagraha

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muahah, i like that link, bob.
What's the significance of 0° Fahrenheit? 0° Fahrenheit is colder than it ever gets in Denmark :lol:

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