Overly Chatty Penguins
The Ready Room => General => Topic started by: Uranium - 235 on January 25, 2004, 09:06:41 PM
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- Combat: I love it. I usually go Damage 1 - Shotty - HMG - Armor 1 - Armor 2 - HA - Resupply, and I almost always end with the most kills. However, jetpacks in combat are horrifyingly unbalanced, as the marines just fly past you and blow the hell out of your hive. Die, repeat. Though all the reserved slot holders being able to vote maps means every game is combat, it's beginning to piss me off.
- NS 3.0:
1) Skulks are way too weak. I went through a game with 6 deaths and about 40 kills because they're so easy to kill. Most of em couldn't even get close.
2) Electricity is WAY overpowered. I could put a TFac in Engine Room on Tanith and it'd launch a bolt of lightning across the map and up an onos' ass in Feedwater hive.
3) Stomp was "fixed" by making it only 1 second. However, Flayra actually managed to skate around the whole fact that the reason it's overpowered is that a stomp is longer then most hallways.
4) Hand grenades are neat, but overpowered. A lot. They're like handheld siege cannons. Just whip 'em at an OC and it gets blown halfway to hell.
5) I've almost never seen an alien win. In co_ or ns_.
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Stomp is fine with the hitboxes and all
#2: TRUE- but it costs 15 res more
#4 false
#5 80% true. marines are overpowered
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On that gunmetal blue snow map, I threw a hand grenade against a wall. The explosion killed 4 skulks on the other side.
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Don't spam[/color]
Spam? I thought it was rather humorous. And now no one can enjoy my comedic genius. =p
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Having spent 14 hours today playing 3.0 i was wondering what y'all thought of it. I am very excited about it. Many people have been unhappy, or even openly hostile toward me, as a contie, for even allowing the new version to exist. i was wondering where you all fit in. i knwo the guy who was yelling at me for being a contie and for the fact that we turned out " this$^%$&#%$ game" is really a totally wrong. but scince i trust your judgement more tahn his i thought i should ask you guys
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Pessimist View: Horribly unbalanced, it "fixed" everything that wasn't broken, and broke everything that needed fixing. Not enough new material to warrent a '3.0' release (compare it to 2.0 which was like a whole new game).
Optimist View: Well... hand grenades are cool...
Combat is fun, that is, when our dumbass reserved slot holders aren't spamming vote_map co_core.
BTW: WHat the hell is with hand grenades? They fly like they weigh half a pound but they hit something and just plop to the ground.
By 'unbalanced' I mean sickeningly unbalanced. I'm sure you've all seen me end the game with 100+ kills, as I mow through skulks like they're paper.
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Hostile towards you because you're a const member? Pshh, people need to come to glimpse that 3.0 beta != 3.0
I don't like it at this point at all. Combat is fun, but vanilla NS is horribly off-balance. I'm not going to go flaming people for it, though. Trying to balance the game for combat and NS messed things up, and it will be fixed eventually. Life goes on. :D
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Okay here's my breakdown:
Combat:
1) Jetpacks pretty much ruin the game. Once again, in NS's traditional fashion, the old creedo 'if the marines get to the endgame they deserve to win' applies en force. Jetpacks allow the marines to literally skip past every alien on the other team, to the hive, shoot it a lot, get experience, and come back and do it again, with even bigger guns.
2) Take the damn chair out of the pit in co_kestral. Honestly, no one likes lost, no one will like Kestral, for the exact same reason.
3) I want to devolve into a skulk.
Regular NS:
1) Skulks are like paper. Really now, I never noticed a fixed hitbox. Maybe it's because I've always aimed at the skulk. Whatever reason, I can kill three skulks with my LMG, down another with my pistol, whip out my knife and take down a fifth. You've seen me do it. Repeatedly.
2) Stomp, for the love of god, needs a range decrease. Okay, yeah, making it too short wouldn't be healthy for the onos. But he shouldn't be able to stomp people that he will NEVER be able to reach and devour/gore. The current range just makes it super-lame. Stomp should last one second, not have this rolling wave of doom that flows across the map and stuns the commander in the dropship that's circling another planet. I probably wouldn't mind the range if stomp's duration was proportionate to the range. At short range, you're stunned for a while. At long you're stunned very short.
3) Electricity is a sick joke. A sick sad joke. It's like Conan O'Brian cracking dead baby jokes on a tequilla bender. Not funny, sick, and sad, all in one.
4) Our comm spent all his res on turrets instead of giving us guns to kill the fade.
5) Onos is stupid. It went from an unstoppable, terrifying juggernaut in 1.0, to a weak as paper annoyance and outpost eater in 2.0, to a hit and run res whore wet dream in 3.0. Really now, bilebomb got a beef. Yay. Sorry, that still won't help the aliens crack open a marine base that has a TFac shooting bolts of lightning through a gorge's ass and killing the hive across the map while seven marines are flinging exploding sex toys around and turrets are blasting away at everything.
6) Jetpack/shotguns in good hands are still overpowered, aliens still have no effective way to counter HA marines outside an onos, and, well, basically the marine ENDgame is STILL overpowered. The only gameplay change was that instead of the marine early game being underpowered, it now is overpowered as well. In short, after playing about 90 bajillion games, seeing only four alien wins is just sad.
7) Really now, does anyone use a catpack? Ever?
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What pisses me off even more is everyone saying 'ITS IN BETA FFS!'
You realize how long this has been in beta? You REALIZE HOW LONG THEY'VE HAD TO FIX BALANCE!?! I mean, you know, if this was the product of maybe, uh, a month? That'd be understandable. But how many months has this been in progress? Any guesses? I can't remember, but I know it's been about three, maybe four months? At this point, balance should be rough around the edges, but largely in place. The fact that a solo marine (me) can kill keyser, fatty, and a civilian in one LMG clip while flipping off a railing like Chow Yun Fat is unacceptable.
I was half expecting a Valve logo to show up instead of 'UWE' splash screen.
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I thought that it was 3.0 was almost perfectly balanced.
The one hour + (I had to leave about an hour in) game that I took part in only prooves it.
And is it me or are the games getting much more "Epic" an Onos isn't a definite win now and its kinda cool to go against one with a team of marines now rather than in version 2.0 where it became more of a "Great An Onos I'm dead" type of thing.
Oh that and 3.0 runs perfectly on Steam!
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I have to agree with Uranium on the part where skulks die like nothing, casue most of the time , I was the skulk :lol: . Doesn't stomp last one second? I never seen anybody use mines or cat-packs , honestly what's the point of cat-packs, at first everyone was excited about 25% more fire rate but i never seen it used. Also I don't know if they fixed the bilebomb bug , but i was a gorge in the vent above double in veil and started bilebombing for a while and when I checked , nothing got hurt.
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:lol: hilarious, u-235
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Yeah, I though it was weird that skulks die so fast. In 2.01, you would've been said to be using h4x when killing skulks left and right. Although it does need balancing, I still find it fun to play just because of the additions. Combat is really fun but could also use some balancing (*cough* upgrading for aliens *cough*). It's also by far more fun to be a rine in Combat.
EDIT: I forgot one of the most important things: it's laggy as hell. I have my nice dial-up modem and could play the game relatively well before, but now when it starts to lag, it's unplayable. It didn't lag bad yesterday for a long time, but then on co_kestrel, I believe, it was as if skulks were teleporting. And for some reason, the aliens didn't seem to have a big problem with the lag as much as us rines...
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Catpacks don't work on Free SunnyD or any other server with metamod enabled.
Thread merged with the one in the NS forum.
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The real question is what they're going to do about it now. Once the forums come back up (if they ever come back up...) people are going to be pointing out all these little details to the folks who can fix them. Now we can find out if the devs are worth their salt. Will they say 'gee, those are good points that 500 people just agreed on... maybe we SHOULD fix stomp/skulk health/grenade power/HA trains that don't die/whatever.' Or maybe they'll say 'this game has been balanced and tested by hundreds of vets and constellation members!' And assume that the will of the masses is unimportant.
In 2.01 it seemed that with a low skill level, aliens always won, and with a high skill level marines always won. I've seen too many games where aliens are getting stomped even if the marines are terrible now. Every advantage added has been for the marines, it seems. They get all the new toys, and aliens get... focus. Something that already HAD a counter in the game. (Hint: armor) Much alien stuff got nerfed, and no marine stuff. And to reiterate, as if it hadn't been said enough, electrification is COMICAL now. It's supposed to be a freaking skulk deterrent. Not something that makes a fade say 'oh hell, I can't walk down THAT hallway, there's an electrified Tfac in it!' Frankly, I don't mind if they want to stretch the range out a teeny bit. But it stretches like 8-10 feet from the source now. And it's more powerful, AND regen has been nerfed to tick slower. So now a fade taking down an elec'ed RT takes much longer and much more time healing, while a marine taking down an alien RT is still knife, knife, knife.
Meh, it is a beta. But it's version g of said beta. Uranium's right: that's worrisome.
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only problem that bothers me is the rines winning every normal 3.0 game
which now leads to everyone piling into the rine door :huh:
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Only uranium can put it in words like that , bravo! :p
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only problem that bothers me is the rines winning every normal 3.0 game
which now leads to everyone piling into the rine door :huh:
Add a plugin that forces random :)... At least for non regs (of course I try to random every time).
I say vote in the reg forums to go back to 2.01. We can play 3.0 on the 30 billion ones that are goign to pop up, but when we want true gameplay, go with 2.01.
Or, in my truest opinion, go with 1.04.
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I'd like to point out that many of these points have been brought up and discussed in the Constellation forum, and probably in the other hidden forums as well. If it is unbalanced now, it is no fault of the testers, because Flayra does with the game as he sees fit.
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I truly think the reason why marines are "overpowered" are for these reasons:
1) Onos armor along with the rest of the aliens drops fanatically fast from level 1 LMGs (it goes down faster then your health) skulks need thier armor back at 20, in co_maps marines dominate the beginning 98% of the time.
2) Stomp is almost a waste now, it does NOT save retreating onos like it used to thus celerity is vital and requires a movment chamber and no other chamber tactic
3)Grenades are powerful but the good counter is it takes a few seconds to prime it.
4) i have no clue why electricity can zap an alien 10 feet away
5) Sensory chamber cloaking time for aliens is horrible, dont bother going sensory first anymore for the ambushes, by the time u set up and wait to cloak by a sensory chamber the mariens are already shooting at you.
6) lerk flight FREAKIN SUCKS i have no clue why people "love" it so much when u cant fly sideays or backward anymore along with the fact the lerk flys like it has 5 cinderblocks on it and the adrenaline cost for flying sucks seeing how u have to frantically hit jump, walking is amazingly slow and u have to be on the ground to bite becuase the adrenaline cost for flying is so freakin much.
7) people say onos is 75 or 85 res but it seems i cant go onos at 75 or 90 res only at 100 so people say they changed it back to 100, now why the HELL would someone be stupid enough to waste 100 resources to die to 3 marines with level 2 weapon lmgs so quickly? well i am and it seems im not helping the team im only trading 100 of my resources to give marines 1-3 resources, gg aliens lose.
the main factor to marine pwnage endgames is that stomp completly blows, excuse my language but im just stating the truth. How do the devs expect a "devour counter" to a train of HA with level 1-3 weapons when stomp is 1 second and devour range is shortened? Devour TAKES 1 second to prime then switching back to stomp brings you down to 400/0 out of 700/500, now stomping while trying to retreat brings you to 250/0 then running out of adrenaline your screwed or will make it out alive with 60/0 with 83 regen assuming u devoured that HA. now that your at 60/0 marines are FOLLOWING behind your tail so u have to repeat the same process with say 160/0 this is definetly NOT working out, put 2 second stomp back at least.
seems fades are the "tanks" of the kharaa now. why post this? i know any devs who read this will say go back to 2.0 were not fixing it becuase of what u think. but its not what i think, its mine mixed with some of the communities thoughts. If anyone knows a dev who will be intrested in changing all of our ideas that will be posted in this thread please do so, cause as of 3.0 right now. it aint too hot. But then again that statement was my opinion
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Lerk Flight in 3.0:
Frantic flapping is not the way to go. It's a complete waste of energy. Point the lerk at where you want to go, double-tap your jump button for a decent burst of speed, then hold it down for a fast glide that costs no energy. Save that for biting and maneuvering. Also, I believe backwards flight is in the works.
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well that helps things out, and i dont think backwards flight words because for me when i hit my backward button he goes foward.
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I think it was supposed to be added already. But consider that an improvement - before if you held backwards it wouldn't go anywhere at all.
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One thing I'd like to say about catpacks. Everyone says they're useless but I played on a random pub yesterday because I didn't feel like playing 8 rounds of CO (thanks res slotters...).
We were rushing a hive and when we got there the floor was blanketed with catpacks. Most of us had shotties. We reloaded lightning (bleu!) quick and took down the hive in a matter of seconds. Nothing could touch us and we weren't so damn vulnerable during our reload.
It's just going to take a bit of time for everyone to realise what they're good for. They aren't just a spur of the moment thing but for hive assault they are wonderous!
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the main reason people are saying catpacks are useless is because, again, they don't work on SunnyD or any other metamod server.
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If it is unbalanced now, it is no fault of the testers, because Flayra does with the game as he sees fit.
That's exactly the problem, the testers have posted countless threads on what to fix in 3.0, and Flayra hasn't listened to a single thing. It's extremely frustrating.
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uranium and electricity are overpowered. nerf them i say. :angry:
when i put a point in catpack on SunnyD the increased walk speed seemed to work but i didnt seem to be firing faster.
am i the only one stupid enough to put a point in "scan area" ?
i agree with most/all of what uranium said.
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NOTE FOR CLARIFICATION:
Stomp's STUN effect last's one second. In my post, I was talking about the stomp shockwave. I'd have no problem being stunned for 3 seconds if I was an inch in front of the onos. But being stunned for one second when the stomp shockwave has entirely disapeared a foot in front of me...
BTW: I agreed at first with Diablus on lerk flight. He feels like a combination F-16 / Boeing 777. It'll just take a long time to get used to. Would be nice for an option to have 'old flight' and 'new flight'.
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the main reason people are saying catpacks are useless is because, again, they don't work on SunnyD or any other metamod server.
Uh, in order for them to be identified as 'not working' on metamod, it'd require a commander to actually drop one. I don't think anyone besides you and LB and other server owners knew that, so there's another reason for them not being used.
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Combat: So far, I love it. Its a great change of pace from regular NS, and friends can get into it without any problems. I may eventually get bored of it, but at the moment its great fun.
Regular NS: I'm going to stay on the Lunixmonster for some 2.01 action.
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Lerk flight: If the speed wasn't locked down so much in the forward direction, it would rock. I think this is what gives people so much of the 'flying brick' feeling. Find a very high area (there's a ladder going up to a rather useless bridge area on co_kestrel near the hive {i think it's kestrel, CC in a pit?} that is perfect for this) look up, and start flapping. It's like a 2.0 lerk again! ZOOM! However, when flying horizontally, slow, slow, slooooow. Celerity helps a bit with this, but still. A lerk should be speedy. He FLIES for freak's sake. How often have you seen a bird flapping along at 3 miles an hour? A celerity lerk should be faster than a blinking fade or leaping skulk, says I. Not as fast as a walking skulk.
Yes, I don't know why I'm whining about this here, obviously no one here can do anything about it, but at least I get it out of my system until the forums come back and I can go back to being ignored there!
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Because Flayra does with the game as he sees fit.
Unfortunately this is his undoing. He's trying to use NS as Unknown World's posterchild, the thing that made them famous. This 'I don't care what anyone else thinks' attitude is fine for a private modder, but he's got to stop doing that if he ever wants people to actually buy his software.
If I were a potential investor, with 20 G's to lay down, I look at Unkown Worlds and I see a small time team that might have potential, then I look around at natural-selection.org and find out that they blisfully ignore every single issue their players bring up. Now why would I want to risk $20,000 on a game development team that has all the social charms of a grumpy hermit?
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Hey, it works for valvE. Don't knock the system!
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Hey, it works for valvE. Don't knock the system!
Haha so true!
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Focus is great for early game yet becomes utterly useless later on. I'd like to see it get the same treatment as carapace. Meaning it gets stronger with more hives.
Focus does double damage as it is. With 3 sense chambers.
I'd like to see it changed to something along these lines (just guess numbers would need actual tweaking):
1 hive = 200% damage
2 hive = 250%
3 hive = 300% or 325%
Otherwise it's useless to have after l2 armor. It's pretty useless at l1 but if you're an accurate chomper it's still good.
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Just quit a game becuase holy devil didn't understand the counter to focus are early game armor upgrades :/ It about 30 minutes in and we're getting slaughtered left and right with... level 1 armor.
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I see a lot of potential in 3.0. Combat will gain a lot of players, while still encourgeing teamwork (due to the fact you get xp if your near the person that got a kill).
Its just very very unbalanced..
Aliens:
SC is utterly useless, cloak is nerfed so much, theres no point in getting it (Come on, 3 seconds to cloak? Then turning the mouse too fast causes uncloak)... Focus is useless in anything past very early game.. and SoF isn't used much anyway
DC is a bit better, hasn't changed much.. it needs a faster heal rate though
MC hasnt changed at all
Skulks are pretty good, they die a bit too fast now
Lerks suck.. the new flight model is all messed up (They need to combine the new and old), spikes are gone, meaning the lerk only has spores as a long range attack
Gorges are still doing ok, although the general structure costs needs to be decreased a little bit
Fades.. havent played as one yet, cant tell
Onos.. needs to go back to its 2.0 stage.. it should be a tank, it should cost 100 res, it should be a pain in the ass to kill.. It now needs about 1000 hp, just because of how quickly it dies
General alien gameplay is reduced though, the amount of res the aliens get per tick with no rts is about 0.0000001.. meaning that a rush to the aliens starting rt will set them back.. and marines win..
Conclusion: The aliens suck, because people learned how to use them in 2.0, and all the marine players started complaining.
Marines:
Now have grenades, which hurt the lerk even more..
Got a useless updgrade (cat-packs)
Have beacon screwed over, it now moves live marines back to base, even if they were already there.
Elec now extends very far out, making it a pain to take anything out as a skulk
I have concluded that the game is now very unbalanced.. Combat needs to be dropped, until Ns can be balanced..
</RANT>
I'm loosing faith in the NS community.. the "veterans" think they become all-knowing when they get that little icon (I witnessed one tell the other to "keep him on the clan list" so he could keep his icon) The people who donate become infected with this veteran stuff (most, not all)..
The I&S forums have become just a novelty.. The good ideas sink to the bottom, while bad ones stay at the top.. I find myself wondering how some of the people remember to breath daily.. and any attempt I make at improving that forum is met with hostility.
I don't want to see NS turn into CS.. but I fear it is slowly happening (/me holds his copy of 1.04 protectively)
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I completely agree with Uranium on most of his points. The game is unbalanced, and the marines have the advantage. I just played it today for the first time. I was alien, and had so much trouble killing anything marine. I was a fade, and got taken down by one marine with a lmg, and pistol, and a knife swipe..... That's kinda pathetic... I'm not sure if it's because of my lack of skill, but I used to be a darn good alien. Now aliens suck, to put it plainly. My vote, just play 2.01.
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I'm loosing faith in the NS community.. the "veterans" think they become all-knowing when they get that little icon (I witnessed one tell the other to "keep him on the clan list" so he could keep his icon) The people who donate become infected with this veteran stuff (most, not all)..
The I&S forums have become just a novelty.. The good ideas sink to the bottom, while bad ones stay at the top.. I find myself wondering how some of the people remember to breath daily.. and any attempt I make at improving that forum is met with hostility.
I don't want to see NS turn into CS.. but I fear it is slowly happening (/me holds his copy of 1.04 protectively)
*sniff* so touching :'(
The last thing i want to see happen to NS is for it to become like CS, i think i'd loose all faith in modding...
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3.0? 3.0 is out? I thought that was a dream, because when I downloaded it it just laughed at me and didn't work at all. The only good thing I can say is 'thank potatoes that they put the title Beta next to it.'
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I'm gonna take the counter-arguement here and be an objector, this will get me flamed badly but I feel I need to stand up for this.
First off I'm a marine player, always have been, always will be. I never like going aliens but I will if I have to. For a start as a marine player having a group of Oni run around massacring massed groups of marine is not "fun" in fact it sucks. It sucked so hard its one of the reasons I stopped playing 2.0.
It got frustrating, I did not want to play a game where most of the time some big alien that we had almost no chance of killing went around and raped the whole team. It isn't enjoyable.
However alien wins aren't as uncommon as you seem to think. Get a good team together and the aliens suddenly become very nasty indeed. Onos and a group of skulks with a lerk umbring is rather effective at taking on a group of heavies and the odd base or 4. Try going around IN GROUPS as skulks and suddenly it becomes a little easier to kill marines. I've seen it done and incidently that team went on to win the game.
Half the problem is what happened with the release of 2.0. People are still trying to do what won them the game in the old version. YOU NEED TO ADAPT! (I cannot stress this point enough) Alien teamwork is even more important than ever. And anyway this is a BETA, its not going to be balanced or remotely bug free yet so if you don't want to play it you don't have too. And if you really hate it that much stop playing, I mean how difficult is that? Go and play another Mod, after all there are more than NS! The fact that Flayra does anything he wants to is because its his mod. He could change the marines into fluffy pink bunnys and although the community would probably hate him and throw poop at him or something it wouldn't matter ITS HIS GAME! He can do whatever he wants. He doesn't owe you anything, remember that Constallation is a DONATION! so that arguement goes out the window immediately he gives you nice things for DONATING you didn't pay to play the Beta or get that icon thingy, he gave it to you because you donated.
OK Rant Over, Time to sum up this argument in a quote from some dude...
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change.” -Charles Darwin
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I agree a little with Ven too, although the problems should be fixed. It is his game, but I think that Flayra will realize eventually that he'll need to listen to actually go somewhere with his company (especially to start off). The only thing I cannot stand at all is the lag (when combined with my high ping already; then it gets really bad sometimes). I also find it somewhat amusing that you guys complain about a 200+ ping when I play with it all the time (but that's off-topic).
Another thing Ven mentioned was that you need to adapt to the new version. This is very true for regular NS. If you're in a group of skuks, you can take out marines easy -- the same is true for Combat (although still not as effective).
Now back to Flayra; he receives all these donations, and I'm sure that he doesn't just use it to by things he wants. If he has any business sense (which I'm sure he does), he'll use it to further NS.
Lastly, this is a beta, and all the quirks will eventually get pretty much worked out. And of course, not everyone will be happy with the end result, but then a lot of people will be. We just need to be somewhat optimistic.
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The 'it's HIS game' thing is starting to get a little tiring. Take away the whole community, tomorrow. Everyone that ever played NS suddenly starts playing medal of honor instead and never looks back. Flayra is the ONLY ONE left with HIS GAME... Now how long do you think he is going to continue to feverishly develop it?
Exactly.
He's developing the game for people to play. It's a multiplayer game; ever tried to play NS by yourself? Wheee, fun, right? I realize that he created the game, but now that the game has a following in the tens of thousands that support it and even donate their hard earned money to furthering its development, I do believe that he owes the community his respect. Considering and at least responding to requests that are made by hundreds of people won't hurt anything. Reasonable arguments, besides 'TEH NS SI MAI GAME OLOLO!' are always good. The community supports 'his game' and we have made it 'our game'. If he desperately wants to keep it HIS game, he can keep ignoring the community, and eventually it'll start to fall apart.
Edit: Also: Aliens = individual powerhouse, marines = teamwork
3.0? Aliens = teamwork, marines = individual powerhouse
An onos shouldn't need an entourage of a lerk for umbra, a gorge for healspray, a fade for distracting enemies, and a skulk to actually bite people for him. An onos should be able to PWN on his own. An onos attacking a fully upgraded marine base should need help, not an onos attacking a few heavies. That's what the onos are around for.
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- Combat: I love it. I usually go Damage 1 - Shotty - HMG - Armor 1 - Armor 2 - HA - Resupply, and I almost always end with the most kills. However, jetpacks in combat are horrifyingly unbalanced, as the marines just fly past you and blow the hell out of your hive. Die, repeat. Though all the reserved slot holders being able to vote maps means every game is combat, it's beginning to piss me off.
- NS 3.0:
1) Skulks are way too weak. I went through a game with 6 deaths and about 40 kills because they're so easy to kill. Most of em couldn't even get close.
2) Electricity is WAY overpowered. I could put a TFac in Engine Room on Tanith and it'd launch a bolt of lightning across the map and up an onos' ass in Feedwater hive.
3) Stomp was "fixed" by making it only 1 second. However, Flayra actually managed to skate around the whole fact that the reason it's overpowered is that a stomp is longer then most hallways.
4) Hand grenades are neat, but overpowered. A lot. They're like handheld siege cannons. Just whip 'em at an OC and it gets blown halfway to hell.
5) I've almost never seen an alien win. In co_ or ns_.
Iv'e played combat quite a bit alright, but like yourself Bob I am absolutly sick of it. Every map all the time combat (not just on LM). Flayra has said that the NS team will be concentrating on NS classic much more the combat for the moment which i'm overjoyed to hear.
I eventually removed peoples right to execute votemap as it was CO, CO, CO, Ns for 1 min(votmap the comes into play), CO, CO, CO. Fair nuff it's new, it's enjoyable for a change* and I play it but.. call me old fashioned i'm an NS classic man. Also Combat is MUCH more attractive to nubs as it's simpler to comprehend and has a much more straight forward goal. Thus as soon as the nubs discover votemap your going to be playing quite a lot.
1)I dissagree, Skulks are far from weak. Cloaking + Focus = V unhappy marines(or the famed xeno runs). IMO they are only really useful at the start of the game when marines are faily light armour.
2)Yeh elecy is way overpowered for skulks & Lerks. Not so much fades and Onos. I have many a time sat comfortably in between a wall and a tf and smashed it up without being shocked to death.
3)Stomp... I like and dislike the whole stomp thing. Idealy (in my mind) it should knock marines back or down rather then stun them. It IS the only thing that keeps Onos alive imo. How many times have we seen a 1 hive Onos attempt to take down 2 or 3 heavies, it doesn't happen tbh, Onos goes in without Stomp does sweet F.A and either is running away after 2 seconds
4)Yeh they are a bit powerful alright but I think they should have the power of a grenade from a gren launcher. Also Marines really need them to clear out OC's and such. Ideal with less power.
5)Iv'e seen Aliens win lots. Although I know what you mean about the JP rushes it's VERY annoying when you know they are going to lose, next thing JP's zip by and it's game over. Also in the earlier versions Gorges used to web EVERYTHING and game over for marines. Gorges were subsiquently removed from the game after this.
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i read through this entire thread just to see if there was more delectable Uranium goodness. that post he made wwwaaaay back on page one was pure, unadulterated, refined 10 times, filtered twice through swiss mountain streams, cleaned 100 times by virgin nuns, GOLD!!!!!!!
so gold.
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blame the costies for this version? we had atleast 4 good different ideas to fix every problem in the game, and flayra didn't even take notice,
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i read through this entire thread just to see if there was more delectable Uranium goodness. that post he made wwwaaaay back on page one was pure, unadulterated, refined 10 times, filtered twice through swiss mountain streams, cleaned 100 times by virgin nuns, GOLD!!!!!!!
so gold.
You think that'd be worth some sort of title, wouldn't you...
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You think that'd be worth some sort of title, wouldn't you...
My vote is for 'so cute when he's angry'.
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3)Stomp... I like and dislike the whole stomp thing. Idealy (in my mind) it should knock marines back or down rather then stun them. It IS the only thing that keeps Onos alive imo. How many times have we seen a 1 hive Onos attempt to take down 2 or 3 heavies, it doesn't happen tbh, Onos goes in without Stomp does sweet F.A and either is running away after 2 seconds
even WITH stomp the onos does nothing. The supposidly "tank" of aliens is being killed by 3 LA marines with level 2-3 weapons. better off dropping 7 chambers then wasting 75 on something that if marines have heavies WONT counter it, i tried to counter 5 marines guarding a siege area with 3 turrets to help them, not only did i make it out with 50 hp, i only hit one of them once and they spread out thus, stomp is one second. i stomp one they shoot i try to stomp the other one the other huy who i stomped is shooting at me. and with fixed hitboxes onos seem more of a joke then something to be worried about. now 2 HA is something aliens should worry about even at hive 2 in 3.0
btw bob, i do agree with u how alien are the ones requiring teamwork. all marines need is 1 guy to sit in base, 2-3 to goto a node area to cap it and the rest go off doing whatever they want early game. while aleins need 1 person to save for the hive, 1 to drop chambers and the REST to drop 1 node or more. now in a pub do u actually think people are going to listen? No. thats why marines are winning, but playing in SunnyD aliens have been winning too. but barly, the only time ive seen total ownage is when holy is on our team and puts mariens behind in tech from his rush then a 3 min hive
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i read through this entire thread just to see if there was more delectable Uranium goodness. that post he made wwwaaaay back on page one was pure, unadulterated, refined 10 times, filtered twice through swiss mountain streams, cleaned 100 times by virgin nuns, GOLD!!!!!!!
so gold.
You think that'd be worth some sort of title, wouldn't you...
gah! okok, i'm off to craft you one from the bowels of the deepest Sig Mines!!
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...and the REST to drop 1 node or more.
I'd imagine that that's part of the reason why they're losing so badly. Because of philosophies like this one, and because players who save for an early higher lifeform are typically despised and referred to as "resource whores." As a result of this, higher lifeforms rarely appear at the time when they can make the biggest difference to the outcome of the game.
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The aliens rarely produce higher lifeforms in the early game. Additionally, the ones they do get are usually inexperienced or downright newbie. Also, they rarely work together like the marines do, or like they did in 1.04. They are not utilizing their power. Is it really such a surprise that they are losing so consistently? In 2.0x, the aliens could get away with not fully utilizing their power, simply because they were overpowered. Now, in 3.0, they no longer can.
That said, I do agree that the balance is off. I only disagree as to the extent.
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3.0 Has some balance issues, verily. However, they can be corrected with a few simple fixes:
Electricity covers just the turret factory or node, and costs only 10 res to implement.
Cat-Packs fixed.
Focus makes your first attack a hold-down deal. Hold down the button for 3 seconds, and when releasing, the attack has a 300% boost (Enough for a skulk to take out a LA with armor 3 in one hit, and enough for an onos to obliterate a heavy in a single gore.) However, for however long the button is held down, that same ammount of time is required before the attack can begin charging again.
Extra ideas:
Give the commander the ability to drop extra packs of grenades. 3 Grenades for 5 res, with the Upgraded armory and the grenade upgrade.
Beef up the fade armor and health / Decrease the drain from blink. This will give it the ability to stand up to one HMG or 2 Shotguns.
Add a "freelook" feature to the lerk, where when holding down control, the lerk still drifts in it's original direction, but can move it's view. This gives it the ability to make strafing runs without having to dive down into an electrified turret base. This makes it slightly less like a F22 and more like a commanche. Also, upon releasing the key, lerk automatically turns in the direction the head is pointed, giving the ability to do awesome 90 degree turns.
On a side note: I love the new lerk, and am going to focus on being the scariest damn lerk evar.
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About focus and 1 hit kills, 1 hit kills are bad. Focus does need some sort of advantage to using, but 1 hit kills? Especially at armor 3...
I think a better idea would be to use an armory to get grenades back. Although this would probably result in nade spam at some point...
I think they were actively trying to nerf blink in 3.0...
Wow, when I get NS 3.0 working on my comp, I'll complain about it more. The only thing I can say is, why is my pistol firing so slow?!?
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About focus and 1 hit kills, 1 hit kills are bad. Focus does need some sort of advantage to using, but 1 hit kills? Especially at armor 3...
I think a better idea would be to use an armory to get grenades back. Although this would probably result in nade spam at some point...
I think they were actively trying to nerf blink in 3.0...
Wow, when I get NS 3.0 working on my comp, I'll complain about it more. The only thing I can say is, why is my pistol firing so slow?!?
I suppose you're right, but focus should do at least something against armor 3.
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Focus makes your first attack a hold-down deal. Hold down the button for 3 seconds, and when releasing, the attack has a 300% boost (Enough for a skulk to take out a LA with armor 3 in one hit, and enough for an onos to obliterate a heavy in a single gore.) However, for however long the button is held down, that same ammount of time is required before the attack can begin charging again.
Extra ideas:
Give the commander the ability to drop extra packs of grenades. 3 Grenades for 5 res, with the Upgraded armory and the grenade upgrade.
focus idea: Not bad, however if i were an onos, i could easily take out a whole squad of marines:
charge up gore and take out one HA,
eat another HA,
stomp the rest for your support to take down.
of course, if the charge-up delay affects the rest of the abilities, focus would be unused because it leaves you defenseless after you attack with it, and if you make the delay too short, then you can take out all that HA in 10 seconds.
grenade idea: will just lead to grenade spam. Imagine you have two - three marines at a hive, you give them a couple grenade packs each and they'll jsut spam grenades at the hive, and it'll drop before many could get to a movement chamber/the hive
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Yes, focus should actually matter aganst armor 3, maybe have it only require 2 bites to kill instead of 4. I've seen focus, and unless I lagged on my own server, the delay of attack went up by 300%? That's madness... I thought it would be a negligent thing, like 25% speed reduction, not "Now you must wait 2 seconds before biting." Cmon, be fair :(
Onos have charge. I hear from the logs that this is now a 'one touch kill non heavies' and a 'three touch kill heavies' or something like that. THAT is pretty scary :\
And as for grenades, although yeah, grenade spam would be a problem, grenades do not fall under the category of mines, you get them as you spawn. Why should I have to type 'kill' just to get another grenade? Maybe make it so it takes 15 seconds 'reloading' the grenade... or somethng
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Focus, in my opinion, should never have been added. It is a nice upgrade, assuredly, but it does little to improve the viability of the sensory chamber. The sensory chamber lacks versatility. All of its upgrades, along with its effect, are generally geared toward the same tactics: ambushing, and hit-and-run strikes. Focus is no different. Because of this, once the marines counter these tactics, the sensory chamber becomes for the most part worthless. The sensory chamber needs more versatility if it is to become a viable choice.
[edit]
And as for grenades, although yeah, grenade spam would be a problem, grenades do not fall under the category of mines, you get them as you spawn. Why should I have to type 'kill' just to get another grenade? Maybe make it so it takes 15 seconds 'reloading' the grenade... or somethng
Agreed. It makes no sense and is completely unbelievable that a marine who spent his grenade would want to suicide so that a replacement who has a grenade would be sent.
[/edit]
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On the nades: It's the old gameplay > realism thing. Sure, it doesn't make sense to only get one and no more until you die. But they're so freaking strong that if you could load up on them then just about any alien chamber would be worthless, falling to nadespam. That's why the GL has a higher cost, and makes the wielder pretty vulnerable, unless they want to GL their feet to take out skulks.
On the focus: Yes, now that the novelty is wearing off, I begin to realize that it's about worthless. Against a lone marine, sure it's fun to run up behind him and chomp him in one hit... but if you can't kill a lone armor 0 marine from behind anyway, there's a problem. And when chomping buildings... it should AT LEAST do an equal amount of damage over time as unfocused biting, if not more. It's like focus is the counter for itself... everything good it gives you, it gives something bad back in return. This is the ability that will save sensory from being the last ridiculed chamber?
And as far as res whores/res hoarders/whatever you call them: It's the many and obvious bad people who have given the few good ones a bad name here. When someone jumps in, drops no RTs, doesn't save for hive, doesn't even drop a chamber, goes fade/onos ASAP and then whines that no one will drop him DCs/MCs, only to die thirty seconds later and then LEAVE THE GAME... well, that's where the animosity comes from, and it happens far too often. If someone says right off 'guys, I'm a very good fade, if I fade early I'll probably last for the rest of the game, and I'll keep marines distracted and take out elec'ed RTs' and so forth, THAT'S GREAT. Hoard that res buddy, you'll be helping the team.
This is why civilian always has an open pass to save for fade, or why LB gets to save for onos without complaints (preemptive: it's not just because it's his server olo bant omg). They're just really GOOD at it, and they help the team a lot.
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they were weak, and semi usful verses ocs and such, then flayra upped the damage and made it explode on contact, then the next day said he was releasing 3.0 so it never got tested. and eletricity was brought up every day almost, and never got changed.
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This (http://www.chubshuffle.com/bobthejanitor/omg.jpg) sums up the problems with electricity better than anything else.
OUR HIVE IS UNDER ATTACK!
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OMG that's insane! I knew it was upped a bit but wowza!
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This (http://www.chubshuffle.com/bobthejanitor/omg.jpg) sums up the problems with electricity better than anything else.
OUR HIVE IS UNDER ATTACK!
THAT is clearly too much! :blink:
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Oh, I'm glad you got that screenshot Bob. That was so hilarious when it happened. There were so many funny things that happened yesterday.
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The hive did die, but thats beacuse a guy walked in and shotied it. I wonder how much damage it did take...
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Any mappers making co_iceworld? *cough, cough*
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On the nades: It's the old gameplay > realism thing. Sure, it doesn't make sense to only get one and no more until you die. But they're so freaking strong that if you could load up on them then just about any alien chamber would be worthless, falling to nadespam. That's why the GL has a higher cost, and makes the wielder pretty vulnerable, unless they want to GL their feet to take out skulks.
I agree that a marine should not be able to load up on grenades. That would indeed be folly. I'm arguing that a marine should be able to gain a new grenade by means other than death. I don't see how that change would be unbalancing; after all, it can be done in the current version with suicide.
And as far as res whores/res hoarders/whatever you call them: It's the many and obvious bad people who have given the few good ones a bad name here. When someone jumps in, drops no RTs, doesn't save for hive, doesn't even drop a chamber, goes fade/onos ASAP and then whines that no one will drop him DCs/MCs, only to die thirty seconds later and then LEAVE THE GAME... well, that's where the animosity comes from, and it happens far too often. If someone says right off 'guys, I'm a very good fade, if I fade early I'll probably last for the rest of the game, and I'll keep marines distracted and take out elec'ed RTs' and so forth, THAT'S GREAT. Hoard that res buddy, you'll be helping the team.
Well, I don't know how many others share that opinion, but perhaps I'll try that sometime.
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Well, I don't know how many others share that opinion, but perhaps I'll try that sometime.
Your reputation may be better (worse?) than you think. Too many times have I heard people say 'oh no, that fade is civ, we are SO SCREWED!'
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The last time I saw civ as a fade, he was on ... lost? (The one with double as nanogrid) and he spent 90% of the game in there as a fade. First it was 4 LMG marines, then 4 heavy HMG marines, then 6 heavy hmg/gl grenades... that whole game I never saw civ die. Madness. And a good reason why blink should be nerfed!
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LB gets to save for onos without complaints (preemptive: it's not just because it's his server olo bant omg). They're just really GOOD at it, and they help the team a lot.
bob u got some brown stuff on your nose ;)
also civil, on the node philosphy, dropping 1 node in the beginning only helps the team ven more, its like paying 15 res, to gain 1 res per tick, it adds up. If everyone doesnt drop a node besides player(s) saving for hive/chamber u DONT see the higher lifeforms later game. so it works out for the worst, saying that philosophy is the reason why aliens are losing more is contradicting yourself because 2 nodes to support a team of 8 is not going to cut it
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also civil, on the node philosphy, dropping 1 node in the beginning only helps the team ven more, its like paying 15 res, to gain 1 res per tick, it adds up. If everyone doesnt drop a node besides player(s) saving for hive/chamber u DONT see the higher lifeforms later game. so it works out for the worst, saying that philosophy is the reason why aliens are losing more is contradicting yourself because 2 nodes to support a team of 8 is not going to cut it
It doesn't work like that. It isn't as simple as paying 15 resources to get .25 per second. To continue receiving resources from resource chambers, you must prevent the marines from destroying them. And how often does an alien team successfully hold more than perhaps four nodes against a competent marine team in the early game? Not often, in truth. Early game marines have better map control than early game aliens. Unless you are fighting an incompetent marine team, it is wasteful to have the entire team build resource chambers simply because you cannot hope to hold anywhere near all of them.
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so your saying ud rather wait 20 minutes in game as a skulk to go onos because aliens have a team of 8-9 with 1 resource tower..... when u could drop a node, wait 10-15 minutes or even less and go onos..... 5 minutes in NS as of 3.0 beta can mean the difference of LA's storming a hive or HA/HMG storming a hive. i would rather build my rt and know im getting resources and helping the team, then going onos. and dying as usual in 3.0
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I am not. Of course you need a good portion of the alien team to build resource chambers. But having the entire or nearly the entire team build resource chambers is a waste.
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So what it really comes down to is that the aliens need to work as a team MORE than they did previously.
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Aliens just need more hard counters to things. HA should not be Oh crap HA gg. We were talking about this in IRC, aliens need uber hive 3 abilities. Charge should kill A3 LA marines in 1 hit. Unless the marines are very good(And if they are very good, why did the aliens get 3 hives in the first place?) they can't recover from hive 3.
Oh and diablus, since you start out with 25 res, all you need to go fade is 25 more, that comes preaty fast, faster if you skulk and kill a lot.
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I am not. Of course you need a good portion of the alien team to build resource chambers. But having the entire or nearly the entire team build resource chambers is a waste.
That's what I say. Depending on who i'm playing with, i'll do either of the two options (fade/onos or RT)i like to have 4-5 RTs in the beginning. I will also try to get those RTs to be put up on and near the starting hive and the other hive that the rines aren't going after. And yes, I pretty much do let the rines have a hive, while we build up the second and then own them with our '1337' leaping skillz :p
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EDIT: Whoops... sorry about the double post, hit quote instead of edit... :(
Eh, while i'm here, I enjoy being onos, even if we're loosing. It's fun devouring people and listening to them complain :p . I need to work on my fade skills though, I usually just save up for n0s.
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So what it really comes down to is that the aliens need to work as a team MORE than they did previously.
Indeed. Teamwork among the aliens was once prevalent, back in 1.04. Now, it must be relearned.
Aliens just need more hard counters to things. HA should not be Oh crap HA gg. We were talking about this in IRC, aliens need uber hive 3 abilities. Charge should kill A3 LA marines in 1 hit. Unless the marines are very good(And if they are very good, why did the aliens get 3 hives in the first place?) they can't recover from hive 3.
The problem with that is that it would mean a full fourth of the alien abilities would never be seen in serious play. Quite a waste, if you ask me.
In addition, I don't even see any benefits that would be achieved by so greatly increasing the power of the third hive. It would give the aliens the power to counter late game marine technology, certainly, but three hives should not be necessary to counter any marine technology. Because of the amount of map control it entails, third hive should only be an accessory.
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Sometimes I think the most obvious way to balance high tech would be to allow webs at hive 2...
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Sometimes I think the most obvious way to balance high tech would be to allow webs at hive 2...
but u need bile bomb ALOT to counter seige attacks on a hive
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Yes, you must work as a team on aliens now, but if the rines are a good team it won't matter. Today, I played a game when we had 3 hives around 5 times. That's how overpowered rines are. The game kept going back and forth. Every onos we got died sooner or later and the HAs were feared. In the end, since the alien team was more organized and the rines weren't performing to their potential, the aliens would have won (the map changed due to a vote since the game was already over an hour long).
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Sometimes I think the most obvious way to balance high tech would be to allow webs at hive 2...
but u need bile bomb ALOT to counter seige attacks on a hive
??? I've never seen a gorge actually use bilebomb for anything but attacking solo RTs. Honestly, where there's a siege, there's turrets. Where there's turrets, there's a phase gate. Where there's a siege base with a phase gate, there's a lot of pissed off marines with guns. And a shortranged super-weak attack for a super slow and vulnerable lifeform... eeeh...
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Sometimes I think the most obvious way to balance high tech would be to allow webs at hive 2...
but u need bile bomb ALOT to counter seige attacks on a hive
??? I've never seen a gorge actually use bilebomb for anything but attacking solo RTs. Honestly, where there's a siege, there's turrets. Where there's turrets, there's a phase gate. Where there's a siege base with a phase gate, there's a lot of pissed off marines with guns. And a shortranged super-weak attack for a super slow and vulnerable lifeform... eeeh...
Actually, if you get a higher lifeform to take the brunt of the attack, 2 gorges can wipe out ANY base ina few seconds. In fact, we did this just yesterday on Biodome. 2 Gorges evolved in the vent at xeno, waited on an onos to attack and draw fire, then rush and biled the phase and TF. Within 7-8 seconds... poof... no pg or TF. Team came in a cleaned up.
On a side note, I new strat I'm seeing pop up is that someone immediately sves for onos from the start. Actually, in bigger games, 2 save for onos. By the time second hive comes around, you have 2 onos to take out sub bases and nodes. The marines usually don't have a fully effective counter. BUT, the onos is not a tank anymore as we all know. SO he must be used more like a fade. As hit and run when marines are present. I've seen this strat where veteran players (by that I mean good ones) horde for onos and someone else saves for hive. It wors well in the end, especially with a lerk or two. The most important thing is to wait for second hive, with DC and MC. If you onos at one hive, there's a much higher chance you won't last 2 minutes...
The problem with this strat is that ppl are so condition to say "OMG, you went onos?!? You reswhore!", so ppl feel guilty doing it. But I think it's a viable strat.
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interesting use of the onos. i'd be happy to spend rez preparing the bases and rts while 2 competent players save for onos, no problem with that. i just want to win. hrm. that's prolly a bad trait, as i've had near heartattacks comming losses..
but, as has been said before, no alien can really go around by themselves anymore, with redemption and regen nerfed, with the new massive fade and onos hitboxes, everyone needs support.
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I heard something about armour and the number of hives affecting it, I didn't notice anything.
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If I recall correctly at one hive your armor absorbs slightly less than 2.01 leves, at two hives it's the same, and at three hives, it's beefed up a little more. So aliens are actually starting out at a disadvantage now but getting a little one in the end game when it doesn't matter so much anymore.
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rad4Christ,Jan 30 2004, 06:10 PM]The problem with this strat is that ppl are so condition to say "OMG, you went onos?!? You reswhore!", so ppl feel guilty doing it. But I think it's a viable strat.
Feeling guilty about going Onos? Heck, I even feel guilty about getting ammo because of all that crying about armory humping. Next time I hear somebody calling me a humper I'm gonna timeban them...
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All things in moderation lolfighter.
Any idea what the effects of carapace on onos are? I haven't dared to try it in a game yet, I'm wondering if it's maybe a contender for regen.
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Has anybody ever tested focus with primal scream? Like if there were 3 onos with level 3 focus and a lerk constantly doing primal scream. Since primal scream makes attack 2x faster or 30% faster or something like that.
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i personally like aliens in 3.0... well combat, if i dont come into the game to late that i cant get any kills... in normal ns tho its a little tough being an alien, its almost like you NEED more than 1 up per chamber in order to win, my onos adreneline regen cloak combo doesnt work any more :/
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Has anybody ever tested focus with primal scream? Like if there were 3 onos with level 3 focus and a lerk constantly doing primal scream. Since primal scream makes attack 2x faster or 30% faster or something like that.
Focus only affects slot 1 weapons.
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Roger, and he's talking about primal scream's effect on the onos' slot one weapons.
Nubcaek.
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Any idea what the effects of carapace on onos are? I haven't dared to try it in a game yet, I'm wondering if it's maybe a contender for regen.
In 2.01 carapace always doubled your bullet-eating capacity. Skulk went from 9 to 19 shots. Fade went from 30 to 60. I dunno how it is in 3.0, but I'll bet it's the same.
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caraspace no longer doubles the armor. if that were the case, the onos would be unstoppable at 1200 armor. It gives a mild percentage.
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carapace is also effected by the number of hives you have =P
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Cara also increases armor absorbtion. I think with cara, you can take more pain under fire, so it'll be good if in co-ordination with a Bile rush, but if you're taking out eleced nodes and bases, then just go with regen.
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In 2.01 carapace always doubled your bullet-eating capacity. Skulk went from 9 to 19 shots. Fade went from 30 to 60. I dunno how it is in 3.0, but I'll bet it's the same.
Not quite correct. Skulk went from 11 to 16 bullets (9 to 19 was in 1.04), Fade went from 36 to 55, and Onos went from 72 to 100.
carapace is also effected by the number of hives you have =P
Not exactly, though it is true. Armor, in general, is affected by the number of hives.