Overly Chatty Penguins
The Ready Room => Off Topic => Topic started by: Quaunaut on July 22, 2004, 11:12:08 PM
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I already cleared this with JHunz, and I know a lot of you saw it on the NS forums. I just wanted to make sure that those that don't frequent those see this.
Final Hope Faith (http://s4.invisionfree.com/Final_Hope_Faith/index.php)
This board is a place where Christians of any kind can come to talk about their religion, beliefs, and interests with other Christians on a level that is a bit more in tune with the religion. It welcomes all kinds of Christians, but especially, gamers.
The point of this Board is not so much to acquire new Christians as it is to give Christian gamers a place to congregate. It is also to reach out to those Christians who have fallen out of it because of their local religion's ways of doing things, which I've personally noticed to be quite hypocritical, and NOT according to how the Bible says it should be handled. Its okay if you go to these Churches if you like them, but frankly, many of us feel too confined, and almost as if we are constantly beat up while we are there for living a life different from theirs, yet not the sinning life (such as playing Violent video games, obviously- its not a sin, people!).
I also invite people of any other religion to come and say what they want here, as long as they don't bash us or anything, flame, or anything of the type. Just act intelligent, and everyone is welcome.
I hope you all find something here you'll like- I'm sure this will become something people will like one day with its purpose. Also, DO in fact invite your Christianity-curious friends to the forums, because we do have a section for them and even though its not the purpose of this board, it can and WILL be done (the telling about the religion and the such).
Once again, I invite all of you, and either way wish luck to you in life(man thats OOC isn't it?)
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No disrespect intended, but... Christian Gamers? This is slightly ironic when considering how other christian groups (which I understand that this group is not in any way affiliated with) frequently rail at games (*cough* GTA *cough*). But sure, why not? I just have trouble understanding what christianity has to do with gaming. It's like Burger King suddenly started selling lawnmowers.
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No disrespect intended, but... Christian Gamers? This is slightly ironic when considering how other christian groups (which I understand that this group is not in any way affiliated with) frequently rail at games (*cough* GTA *cough*). But sure, why not? I just have trouble understanding what christianity has to do with gaming. It's like Burger King suddenly started selling lawnmowers.
Most gamers are repelled by the Church for their practices because the Church doesn't understand the games or why we play them.
This is a place that follows the Bible in its ways- not that of some pastor that says games are evil because he thinks so.
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odd, i was jus tthinking the Christian gamers out there should have a haven to have .. what's the word.. *wracks brains*.. fellowship in.
seeing as christians are more or less treated as the red headed stepchildren of gaming. being a recovering christian myself and having a softspot for the underdog, brought this to mind.
by the by, there are many diff types of christians, the ones that usually turn most ppl's stomachs are the tele-evangelists or fundamentalists, and truth be told, that is only a portion.
neato little bit o history. in the past, the lefto pinko bleeding heart liberals used to be.. THAT"S RIGHT, christians. until that whole Moral Majority thing occured in the 80's. think about it, it fits far more to the new testament message than the right. that is have utmost compassion (not just tolerate, or not hate, or ignore your enemy, but love. hot damn, if that ain't some bleeding heart liberal slogan, i dont' know what) service to everyone, but especially the poor (gov't programs anyone?), and a few other pretty hippie ideas.
of course, the moral majority came around and preached to the Old Testament loving christians, spreading the gospel of hate, bigotry, narrowmindedness galore (have a gander through Leviticus to see what sort of atrocious things are allowed).
but that's just me ranting. ignore the aging owl hooting like a madman. carry on.
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odd, i was jus tthinking the Christian gamers out there should have a haven to have .. what's the word.. *wracks brains*.. fellowship in.
seeing as christians are more or less treated as the red headed stepchildren of gaming. being a recovering christian myself and having a softspot for the underdog, brought this to mind.
by the by, there are many diff types of christians, the ones that usually turn most ppl's stomachs are the tele-evangelists or fundamentalists, and truth be told, that is only a portion.
neato little bit o history. in the past, the lefto pinko bleeding heart liberals used to be.. THAT"S RIGHT, christians. until that whole Moral Majority thing occured in the 80's. think about it, it fits far more to the new testament message than the right. that is have utmost compassion (not just tolerate, or not hate, or ignore your enemy, but love. hot damn, if that ain't some bleeding heart liberal slogan, i dont' know what) service to everyone, but especially the poor (gov't programs anyone?), and a few other pretty hippie ideas.
of course, the moral majority came around and preached to the Old Testament loving christians, spreading the gospel of hate, bigotry, narrowmindedness galore (have a gander through Leviticus to see what sort of atrocious things are allowed).
but that's just me ranting. ignore the aging owl hooting like a madman. carry on.
Never knew that stuff, but wow. Didn't know.
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oh i'm full of religious little factoids, it's how i choose to waste my braincells. didja know buddhism is the only religion for which no one has gone to war?
have you every read The Apocrypha? which is teh texts deemed not bible worthy circa.. what? 100? 200 AD by some council or whatnot. THOSE are some bloody interesting reads. texts on jesus life as an adolescent, gospels from other disciples, good times!
didja know the most holy day of SUNday was formerly/originally the jewish Sabbath? the SEVENTH day on which god apparently rested? but around.. 123AD? IIRC, could be 321 AD.. this guy some ruler dude, who (constantine, iirc) worshipped Sol Invictus (the SUN god), realized how powerful a state religion/solidarity was, so bastardized the early christianity to conform to Sol INvictus. hence holy day is SUNday now, and we celebrate Christmas on the WINTER FREAKING SOLSTICE, which is Sol Invictus's birth (since that's teh longest night, every day afterwards the days get longer).
er, what else? ah, that's all i can blather on about for the time being.
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oh i'm full of religious little factoids, it's how i choose to waste my braincells. didja know buddhism is the only religion for which no one has gone to war?
have you every read The Apocrypha? which is teh texts deemed not bible worthy circa.. what? 100? 200 AD by some council or whatnot. THOSE are some bloody interesting reads. texts on jesus life as an adolescent, gospels from other disciples, good times!
didja know the most holy day of SUNday was formerly/originally the jewish Sabbath? the SEVENTH day on which god apparently rested? but around.. 123AD? IIRC, could be 321 AD.. this guy some ruler dude, who (constantine, iirc) worshipped Sol Invictus (the SUN god), realized how powerful a state religion/solidarity was, so bastardized the early christianity to conform to Sol INvictus. hence holy day is SUNday now, and we celebrate Christmas on the WINTER FREAKING SOLSTICE, which is Sol Invictus's birth (since that's teh longest night, every day afterwards the days get longer).
er, what else? ah, that's all i can blather on about for the time being.
Actually, the original Sabbath was on Saturday.
So I figure the guy just wanted the first thing you thought of that week or to wrangle up and extra thoughts to go to the Sun God.
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that's what i meant. the original Sabbath was saturday. was i not clear?
*goes back to read own blather*
i was painfully unclear, sorry about that.
christian holy day used to be saturday, same as the jewish sabbath, and was changed to sunday. there, clearer, i hope. o_O
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Is it just me, or is Niteowl's typing becoming worse each post? :huh:
Anyway, it's cool that there is a place that people that share a religion can also share a hobby.
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There's a reason the Apocrypha isn't deemed bible-worthy. Many of it's scriptures were written by people hundreds of years after Jesus' life, obviously not by firsthand witnesses or people who were in the time such as was the case in the other four gospels. Instead, they're largely collected sayings (Gospel of Thomas) which aren't found anywhere else except in those writings.
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the new testament message than the right. that is have utmost compassion (not just tolerate, or not hate, or ignore your enemy, but love. hot damn, if that ain't some bleeding heart liberal slogan, i dont' know what) service to everyone, but especially the poor
of course, the moral majority came around and preached to the Old Testament loving christians, spreading the gospel of hate, bigotry, narrowmindedness galore (have a gander through Leviticus to see what sort of atrocious things are allowed).
Old testament Christians... New testament Christians... Wow I'm lost, care to enlighten a non-believer, nite?
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Quaunaut you get the :blink: smily
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the new testament message than the right. that is have utmost compassion (not just tolerate, or not hate, or ignore your enemy, but love. hot damn, if that ain't some bleeding heart liberal slogan, i dont' know what) service to everyone, but especially the poor
of course, the moral majority came around and preached to the Old Testament loving christians, spreading the gospel of hate, bigotry, narrowmindedness galore (have a gander through Leviticus to see what sort of atrocious things are allowed).
Old testament Christians... New testament Christians... Wow I'm lost, care to enlighten a non-believer, nite?
Old Testament Christians = Jews.
New Testament Christians = Christians.
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'recovering christian' hahaha
Anywho, this is a pretty nifty idea. I tend to distance myself from religion, but I'll consider signing up someday so I can make confessions about my naughty habits involving japanese lesbian schoolgirls and tentacles :p
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Sounds like a swell deal. If I was serious about religion, I might join. :)
[...]I'll consider signing up someday so I can make confessions about my naughty habits involving japanese lesbian schoolgirls and tentacles :p[...]
You'll want to be a catholic then. We protestants don't do confessions and letters of indulgence anymore. We prefer to swallow our sin and choke on it. ^_^
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Sounds like a swell deal. If I was serious about religion, I might join. :)
[...]I'll consider signing up someday so I can make confessions about my naughty habits involving japanese lesbian schoolgirls and tentacles :p[...]
You'll want to be a catholic then. We protestants don't do confessions and letters of indulgence anymore. We prefer to swallow our sin and choke on it. ^_^
Look in the forum.
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Don't make me punch you, Quad.
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Don't make me punch you, Quad.
Non-Spam: ?
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Old testament Christians... New testament Christians... Wow I'm lost, care to enlighten a non-believer, nite?
ah, sorry, that's just nomenclature i made up for myself. that is, old testament are more interested,and spend more time working on things in the old testament: judgement of the homosexuals, abstinence education.. er, things of that sort.
new testatment christians are more interested int eh whole service to others and world wide love type thing. like mother theresa, MLK jr. etc.
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has nite read the da vinci code?
if nite.has_read.book(dvc){
cout << "keke"; }
else {
cout << "go read it now";
};
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(pardon my spam, this will be brief)
i have never in my life taken a single programming class. Never tried to code a darn thing.
and yet...
and yet, i've hung out with enough full-blown computer nerds and tech freaks, that i comprehend quite well what black mage just said.
i'm not sure what to make of this revelation...
(on topic now...)
Extremists drive me crazy. Doesn't matter what particular flavor of extremists, be it militant animal rights nuts, religious right loonies, or vallina bean with a cherry on top. It's the narrowmindedness that rubs me the wrong way. (though if you really want to bake your noodle, consider that i am taking an extremist viewpoint myself...) Anyway. After taking a sec to look at this board, this sounds like something that i, by and large an atheist, endorse fully. I may have differing opinions on some of the particular viewpoints, but you seem to be openminded about differing opinions. Heck, it's interesting enough to me that i'll prolly read this place on a regular basis.
Rock on!
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(pardon my spam, this will be brief)
i have never in my life taken a single programming class. Never tried to code a darn thing.
and yet...
and yet, i've hung out with enough full-blown computer nerds and tech freaks, that i comprehend quite well what black mage just said.
i'm not sure what to make of this revelation...
(on topic now...)
Extremists drive me crazy. Doesn't matter what particular flavor of extremists, be it militant animal rights nuts, religious right loonies, or vallina bean with a cherry on top. It's the narrowmindedness that rubs me the wrong way. (though if you really want to bake your noodle, consider that i am taking an extremist viewpoint myself...) Anyway. After taking a sec to look at this board, this sounds like something that i, by and large an atheist, endorse fully. I may have differing opinions on some of the particular viewpoints, but you seem to be openminded about differing opinions. Heck, it's interesting enough to me that i'll prolly read this place on a regular basis.
Rock on!
Extreamists drive everyone crazy,
The world - Extreamists = Easy place to live.
I have nothing against people forming opinions or bias, but it starts to bug me when they actively ignore the other side's point of veiw...
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Actually, I've read the Davinvi Code. And I've also partially read "Cracking the Davinci Code," one of the dozens of books debunking it. Or so they advertise, anyway.
I'll admit - I was moved by the DaVinci code. I believed everything I read. ANd then I grew some common sense and realized that this book was about as feasable as the storyline to Deus Ex (as in, it's surely very possible but is so revelatory that it can't really be taken as a complete truth). Of course, I was rather disgusted with the "debunk" book, as the only historical proof that it used to prove The DaVinci Code wrong was the bible. :wacko:
Now, this is something flawed from the start. How can one prove that a book that undermines the credibility of a certain other book is valid by using that certain other book? It's just plain lunacy. Of course, it also doesn't help that the authors of this 'debunk book' are both pastors.
So for now, I'm sticking with Dan Brown. Or somewhere approximately close to him. If faith is something so deeply ingrained in the christian soul, why would one feel the need to defend it? Doesn't that betray the very definition of faith? Are the authors proving something to the rest of the world or are they merely trying to prove something to themselves and reaffirm their own weak faith?
In conclusion, my stance is that if you have faith in something you won't feel the need to defend it because you already know it to be the truth.
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i would add something to what dubbs said, but it would be a huge spoiler for those who haven't read the book
edit: let's try it spoilerfree:
the author does justify the creation of his book by having one charachter (with some authority over the topic) say the it was ok for another charachter to publish a book on the same topic of the actual book ... gg nospoilermode
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What the hell is the da vinci code anyway? Something that discredits the bible? Haven't we had that a few hundred times already?
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So for now, I'm sticking with Dan Brown. Or somewhere approximately close to him. If faith is something so deeply ingrained in the christian soul, why would one feel the need to defend it? Doesn't that betray the very definition of faith? Are the authors proving something to the rest of the world or are they merely trying to prove something to themselves and reaffirm their own weak faith?
In conclusion, my stance is that if you have faith in something you won't feel the need to defend it because you already know it to be the truth
So the thing that is most important to you is not worth defending? Think of something that means the most to you in the world - I dunno, maybe it's your mother. Now imagine a guy comes up to you and offers you "proof" that your mother was a whore and the man you know as your father is actually just the guy she settled down with after getting pregnant with another guy. Would you defend her? Or would you just smile and nod because you know it isn't true?
Now, the Da Vinci code is a good book. It's a very good book, and I liked it a lot. But it is fiction, and far too many people are taking every word in it as truth just because it's on the New York Times bestseller list.
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What the hell is the da vinci code anyway? Something that discredits the bible? Haven't we had that a few hundred times already?
Basically it discredits everything in the bible and makes a damn good case of it.
It's the kind of book that my mother would read and reach an absolute epiphany. However, the conttoversy comes from the fact that various holy-rollers claim that it's all complete fiction and that nothing in it could possibly be correct. To the average heathen like me, though, it makes much more sense than that other book about religion. The Bible. Yeah, that's it.
So the thing that is most important to you is not worth defending? Think of something that means the most to you in the world - I dunno, maybe it's your mother. Now imagine a guy comes up to you and offers you "proof" that your mother was a whore and the man you know as your father is actually just the guy she settled down with after getting pregnant with another guy. Would you defend her? Or would you just smile and nod because you know it isn't true?
Now, the Da Vinci code is a good book. It's a very good book, and I liked it a lot. But it is fiction, and far too many people are taking every word in it as truth just because it's on the New York Times bestseller list.
If I knew that my mother was never a prostitute, and I know she was never a prostitute (I hope OGM :blink:), I would find absolutely no reason to contend the man's claim. If I know that she was never a whore then what the crap does anything that anyone else thinks matter, let alone this random stranger? That's the foundation of true faith. I don't need to prove him wrong so I can prove myself right - I already am positively dead-set in the fact that I am right.
But then one could say, "But Dubbilex, why are you bothering to argue this point if you think changing anyone's mind is an excercise in futility?"
And I'll respond by staring blankly and say "Huh?"
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Isn't the premise of Da Vinci code that various governments in Da Vinci's time period change a good section of the bible so that it would be easyer to control the population or something?
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has nite read the da vinci code?
if nite.has_read.book(dvc){
cout << "keke"; }
else {
cout << "go read it now";
};
bah, i read Holy Blood, Holy Grail, and a few other ones that came out WAAAY before the da vinci code, same sorta typa stuff.
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oh yes, as a side note, i'm all for ppl having their faiths and such and living great lives and having peace etc etc etc.
i'd rather be a happy fool than a grumpy old wise man. although, as things happen, i 'm now a grumpy old fool, damn...
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"I'd rather be lucky than skilled any day of the week."
You're arguing that ignorance is bliss, Niteowl? Couldn't agree more. I knew a guy who had to see the Matrix before he grasped what that saying's about.
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We need a philosopher's section. B)
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We need a philosopher's section. B)
Soon to be added to my boards!
...and now it seems I'm gonna have to pick up the Divinci Code.
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sorry, my post may seem a bit rude. i by no means am implying that ppl who follow religion are fools. and yes indeedy, ignorance IS bliss. give me my damn soma any day of the damn week.
what i mean to say, is lets say we have a huge phiilosphical debate that actually GOES anywhere (yeah, i know, good luck with that), and lets say religion as a whole is found to be false. well, you've just taken away peace, fellowship, a feeling of belonging, comfort, and all that other good stuff that comes from religion for what? a smug feeling of intellectual rigor?
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Only if your personal feelings are that comfort is valued over truth. I'd rather know the truth and be unhappy than happily believe a lie.
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a lot of niteowls info is IN the da vinci code....not saying you got it form there, but it is there. just read it over the weekend while camping with family. anyway, yeah, this sounds intersting, i know some people who might be interested.
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i'm gonna have to agree with the janitor above me.
hovever unhappy it will make the world, the truth is better than a lie. why waste your whole life working for a lie, when you can work for something worthwhile and important in the long run(this is, of course, going back to the assumption that religion as a whole is found to be false).
if religions proves to be false, wouldn't it be better to spend the time that would otherwise be spent worshipping improving the quality of your time on earth?
the absense of religion does not mean the absense of peace, fellowship, or a feeling of belonging. i for one, would argue that of all the things things that caused peace, or continued peace, it would NOT be religion. religion has been a root cause of conflict in many, many wars throughout history. Is it not also true, that though there be atheists among the population of the world, they do not suffer from a lack of fellowship or feeling of belonging. being an atheist myself i'm quite willing to say that one could live without a god and still have all of the above.
anyway, basically my point is, i don't see that religion is required for people to live a good life, it just is a helpful tool for the lazy to find meaning.(absolutely no offense meant to any of you religious folks out there *grins*)
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*coughs*
spose I need to add something, just because its me :)
If you've ever watched dogma, youll understand me :)
Organized religion has its ups and down, down being that you are forced to beleave it, and you cant let your mind run free, like most christians (specially those hardcore bastispts) you only think of god... ONLY GOD. which, is a bad thing, if god had wanted us all to think about him all the damn time, he would of changed the way our minds work, and placement of certain elements in there. But no, he made us the way we are today, either through planned evolution, or just on the spots genetics.
A good thing of religion though, on the opposite side is, it gives us all something to beleave in, which, t many, MANY people, is very important, if we dont beleave in something, then you have nothing to fight for, and if you have nothing to fight for, why bother go on? youll be a lost soul just living day by day not caring what goes on around you, but with the thought of god, it helps give us hope, hope that if were good, we will go to heaven and if were bad were going to hell. which also alters how we do things in life. But the major flaw of the entire thing is, it is a beleif, people die and kill for those. If you just have an idea, of god, not a beleif but idea... well its all the mre better, because youll be willing to listen and try to listen to others ideas of their gods and such.
sorry for bad typing, and if it looks like I just jumped from thing to thing... cause I did. I dont even know if its on topic :)
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Perhaps it should be viewed from the exterior. I believe that we live to be happy, if that is through a lie, what difference does it make? To you, your "lie" is the truth, as true to you as everything that you have ever learned. You go through life happy. Of course I suppose this is based on the fundamental belief that the point of life is to live and be merry. I could see this complying with bob's point of view as well. If knowing the universal truth gives makes you happy, then your search for that is all-important.
All in all, I fail to see how whether "knowing the truth" or not makes any difference at all in the end, as long as you are happy.
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The interesting irony here is that I am a Christian, and I got there by following those exact principles. I decided I would rather have truth over a happy lie, and the more I researched, the more truth I found in Christianity. So it worked out for me. I'm not usually inclined to bring it up on forums, because I've found that arguing religion over the internet won't change anyone's point of view and makes more flamewars than it makes friends. Although I think Quaun's forums, as a place where like minded people can get together and discuss their common beliefs, is a fine idea.
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The interesting irony here is that I am a Christian, and I got there by following those exact principles. I decided I would rather have truth over a happy lie, and the more I researched, the more truth I found in Christianity. So it worked out for me. I'm not usually inclined to bring it up on forums, because I've found that arguing religion over the internet won't change anyone's point of view and makes more flamewars than it makes friends. Although I think Quaun's forums, as a place where like minded people can get together and discuss their common beliefs, is a fine idea.
oh, i've been WISE TO YOU AND YOUR WAYS FOR MONTHS NOW BOB!! i've sekratly known about yer religionnessisitioty!!! mauahahahhaha!! of course, this relates to nothing at all in this discussion.
i think i put down why i'm not religious in a hidden thread a few aeons ago. if someone can explain that conundrum to me, i'll gladly pick up the bible again and start my thumping anew!!
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You encoded it in ... well, in CODE. And it was code that I didn't know how to read. Damn nerds. :p Post it again and I'll try and get someone else to translate it for me. Once I've got the vocabulary down, then and only then can I begin philosophizing in it.
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the absense of religion does not mean the absense of peace, fellowship, or a feeling of belonging. i for one, would argue that of all the things things that caused peace, or continued peace, it would NOT be religion. religion has been a root cause of conflict in many, many wars throughout history.
I wholeheartedly agree. The practices built around a faith have little practical purpose aside from a symbolic reminder of the original faith.
A set of practices will not change the world for the better. A small group of faithful individuals is the only thing that ever has. The most radical change coming from those who followed Christ. Horrible practices in other countries have been done away with, and entire cultures and ethnic groups have been saved at the hands of people who believe that the God they pray to loves the people who haven't been placed in the richest nation in the world. Missionaries put stops to blood feuds, recorded tribe histories in alphabets and languages created for those tribes, and have brought medical and financial aid to billions of people.
And instead of focusing on that, you focus on the few butchers that killed millions for their own gain, claiming God was on their side. You totally ignore the efforts of millions of people who have worked their whole lives to make sure they were on God's side. Not that they felt they needed to, but because they knew God had accepted them, and obeyed when He called them to spread the word.
Perhaps it should be viewed from the exterior. I believe that we live to be happy, if that is through a lie, what difference does it make? To you, your "lie" is the truth, as true to you as everything that you have ever learned. You go through life happy. Of course I suppose this is based on the fundamental belief that the point of life is to live and be merry. I could see this complying with bob's point of view as well. If knowing the universal truth gives makes you happy, then your search for that is all-important.
All in all, I fail to see how whether "knowing the truth" or not makes any difference at all in the end, as long as you are happy.
Ahh, Hedonism. Say I was happy at the expense of others. Would that OK? Of course not. How do we define what is better good? Someone being happy or someone beaing healthy? Is it up for individuals to determine, or is there a standard that is universal? Where do we know where our right to be happy ends? What if someone is unjust or selfish themselves when they say that their rights are being infringed upon?
What good is being happy anyway? To say that here and now is the only important time would be the downfall of civilization. So we devote ourselves to lasting significance, of course. We decide that the randomly generated genetic code in our bodies must somehow make a difference for all the other people who are just walking worm food. What's the point, Sati?
We all have a concience that tells us it's good to do things for other people. If we are to accept the secular interpretation for this, it is a useless endeavor, we're all going to be dead anyway, and it won't matter. If we accept the Christian version, "We love, because He first loved us." As C.S. Lewis argued so vehemently and so elequently in his books, and what is blatantly apparent to me, is that every impulse I've ever felt can be harmonized with Christian teaching about the nature or the fall of man. It cannot be harmonized with humanistic/hedonistic/secular ethics or tenents.
Organized religion has its ups and down, down being that you are forced to beleave it, and you cant let your mind run free, like most christians (specially those hardcore bastispts) you only think of god... ONLY GOD. which, is a bad thing, if god had wanted us all to think about him all the damn time, he would of changed the way our minds work, and placement of certain elements in there. But no, he made us the way we are today, either through planned evolution, or just on the spots genetics.
I don't know about you, Bill, but I've lost myself in God's word, prayer, and discussions about God for hours at a time. The fondest memory I have is from a missions trip I took in Chicago, where 6 of us sat at a table, eating Cheez-Its, drinking Mountain Dew, talking about the incredible things God did in our lives and the lives of our friends, until 2 A.M. And it wasn't the Dew that kept us up so late, we went to sleep because only then did the last of our sextet finish discussion the finer points of Armenianism and it's effect on his relationship with God. I have never felt such bliss, and the joy I've found in the Lord is the only joy I've found where I've not had an emotional downturn as compensation later. My first kiss with a beautiful girl was followed by a break-up, my placing at old Tae-Kwon-Do tournaments were followed by me getting my arse handed to me by people who were just plain better. The adrenaline rush of a roller-coaster is met with a longing for that rush again. The joy God has showed me has proved to me the depth of His love.
So for now, I'm sticking with Dan Brown. Or somewhere approximately close to him. If faith is something so deeply ingrained in the christian soul, why would one feel the need to defend it? Doesn't that betray the very definition of faith? Are the authors proving something to the rest of the world or are they merely trying to prove something to themselves and reaffirm their own weak faith?
Yes, you may have no cause to believe your mother is was a whore, and smile and walk on. But, assume that same person screamed at the top of his lungs through a bullhorn "DUBBILEX' MOTHER IS A WHORE!" And, everyone clamored around you, or at least, started to wonder what the truth was.
Let me take it a step further. You were spending the last few minutes telling everyone how pure and virtuous your mother is. Then this one guy comes along spouting what you know is a lie.
Are you going to sit idly by and suffer his claims, or are you going to point out the obvious, that perhaps, DNA testing has showed that your parents are your biological parents, and that you were concieved well after their marriage? Or, are you going to sit by and let everyone think that your mom is a prostitute?
Let us go father still from the original analogy, but closer to the specific issue at hand. Assume that your mother is having people over for a party later, free beer for those over 21 (awesome mom, you have), cookies for everyone, both caek and pai, and some good old fashioned LAN play afterwards.
But, who would want to go to a party thrown by a whore? She's providing a free gift, but if everyone thinks she is someone she is not, who will want to go?
Who would take Christ seriously if people thought that he had an affair with Mary Magdaline(sp, sorry), and that the Son of God himself was really just a normal guy with a lot of talk who met an untimely end? Who would embrace what I know as the truth, that Christ payed for their sins and bought them out of bondage, if everyone thought he was a lecher?
What sane, compassionate person would not themselves proclaim the truth, to the point of being crucified themselves for attesting to it?
Christianity is about more that fulfillment, or my own little life and how God's made it so much better. Christianity is about how God himself has stepped into human history and affected every single person on the planet.
EDIT: Sorry for length, just wanted to say all I wanted to say.
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the da vinci code doesn't discredit the bible, it just states that there's another side to what the bible has to say
the other side is: the bible is filled with nonliteral definitions of things and the holy grail proves it while the church claims that everything in the bible was literal
ie:
christ was literally the son (as in offspring) of god
vs
christ was the son (as in raised by and/or miracle) of god
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the da vinci code doesn't discredit the bible, it just states that there's another side to what the bible has to say
the other side is: the bible is filled with nonliteral definitions of things and the holy grail proves it while the church claims that everything in the bible was literal
ie:
christ was literally the son (as in offspring) of god
vs
christ was the son (as in raised by and/or miracle) of god
Actually, the book goes as far to say that jesus was just the son of a carpenter who was elevated to god-status by a later pope (who happened to be in control of all the literature in the world, including all the bibles. And this much is true; the Roman empire was basically all of educated civilization in the world at the time) for political reasons.
And to a person broght up to believe whatever I really want to believe, this (even in the case that it's complete fiction, which it likely is) makes much more sense to me than this immaculate conception stuff. Perhaps I think too rationally, but I believe far more in the dangerous power of human nature and human ambition than I do in any sort of uniting concept of a deity.
But, hell, I listen to Jesus Chris Superstar. I saw The Passion. It's just that, to me, it's an interesting fictional story rather than a historic recount.
Yes, you may have no cause to believe your mother is was a whore, and smile and walk on. But, assume that same person screamed at the top of his lungs through a bullhorn "DUBBILEX' MOTHER IS A WHORE!" And, everyone clamored around you, or at least, started to wonder what the truth was.
Let me take it a step further. You were spending the last few minutes telling everyone how pure and virtuous your mother is. Then this one guy comes along spouting what you know is a lie.
Are you going to sit idly by and suffer his claims, or are you going to point out the obvious, that perhaps, DNA testing has showed that your parents are your biological parents, and that you were concieved well after their marriage? Or, are you going to sit by and let everyone think that your mom is a prostitute?
Let us go father still from the original analogy, but closer to the specific issue at hand. Assume that your mother is having people over for a party later, free beer for those over 21 (awesome mom, you have), cookies for everyone, both caek and pai, and some good old fashioned LAN play afterwards.
But, who would want to go to a party thrown by a whore? She's providing a free gift, but if everyone thinks she is someone she is not, who will want to go?
Yes, I truly would just walk away. I mean, I partake in those "huh huh - your mom is hot" discussions regarding my own mother. It's just honestly not important to me what people think as opposed to what's fact. To my (perhaps unenlightened mind), I don't care about convincing anybody that I believe the Bible is too old a book to be considered an accurate source for anything. I don't care about convincing anyone that I believe it to be fiction. I simply think that, if you want to believe that, it's perfectly groovy. Honestly, I'm not gonna try to chnge your mind :)
The only problem is that there are far too many people in the world who want to make everyone think what they think - and that's where religion came from, looking from my (perhaps wrong) paradigm. Mental unification is a step in the wrong direction. If people learned to accept the fallacies of each other and the nuances of each other's mind without questioning, we'd all be much happier.
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Teehee. I'll go read your 'Davinci Code' if you'll go read 'The Case for Christ' by one Lee Strobel. It's a study touching on merely the high points of the evidence that Christ really existed as an individual who believed that he was God incarnate, who went around doing miracles, and who was really executed and yet who was also really seen up and prancing around three days later. I'd be surprised if the Davinci Code had anything to offer in the way of tangible evidence for someone being able to mass invent a religion and tell people, "Oh, by the way, you've all believed this for YEARS before now, isn't that nice? Now everyone go forth and no one ever question where this belief suddenly came from. Definitely not out of thin air."
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Teehee. I'll go read your 'Davinci Code' if you'll go read 'The Case for Christ' by one Lee Strobel. It's a study touching on merely the high points of the evidence that Christ really existed as an individual who believed that he was God incarnate, who went around doing miracles, and who was really executed and yet who was also really seen up and prancing around three days later. I'd be surprised if the Davinci Code had anything to offer in the way of tangible evidence for someone being able to mass invent a religion and tell people, "Oh, by the way, you've all believed this for YEARS before now, isn't that nice? Now everyone go forth and no one ever question where this belief suddenly came from. Definitely not out of thin air."
Noted. I'll hopefully hit up the library today and search for it :)
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the absense of religion does not mean the absense of peace, fellowship, or a feeling of belonging. i for one, would argue that of all the things things that caused peace, or continued peace, it would NOT be religion.
first off, i didn't say it was the SOLE cause of those good things, i said it was A cause. it would reduce the total tonnage of joy experienced by man ppl.
and no, religion is not wholly evil, neither has it been wholly good. but i think it does provide for many good things for many people as of now.
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Organized religion has its ups and down, down being that you are forced to beleave it, and you cant let your mind run free, like most christians (specially those hardcore bastispts) you only think of god... ONLY GOD. which, is a bad thing, if god had wanted us all to think about him all the damn time, he would of changed the way our minds work, and placement of certain elements in there. But no, he made us the way we are today, either through planned evolution, or just on the spots genetics.
I don't know about you, Bill, but I've lost myself in God's word, prayer, and discussions about God for hours at a time. The fondest memory I have is from a missions trip I took in Chicago, where 6 of us sat at a table, eating Cheez-Its, drinking Mountain Dew, talking about the incredible things God did in our lives and the lives of our friends, until 2 A.M. And it wasn't the Dew that kept us up so late, we went to sleep because only then did the last of our sextet finish discussion the finer points of Armenianism and it's effect on his relationship with God. I have never felt such bliss, and the joy I've found in the Lord is the only joy I've found where I've not had an emotional downturn as compensation later. My first kiss with a beautiful girl was followed by a break-up, my placing at old Tae-Kwon-Do tournaments were followed by me getting my arse handed to me by people who were just plain better. The adrenaline rush of a roller-coaster is met with a longing for that rush again. The joy God has showed me has proved to me the depth of His love.
yeah legion, I know that feeling too, I myself go to a bibe camp every once and a while (hick bible camp, trust me, ts funner then it sounds) and I always have a great time there, and as you say, no downturn. Just reading your post has opened my eyes to that, the whole everything hs an opposite effect, except with god, thanks legion I know have nother thing to be thankfull for :)
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The most radical change coming from those who followed Christ. Horrible practices in other countries have been done away with, and entire cultures and ethnic groups have been saved at the hands of people who believe that the God they pray to loves the people who haven't been placed in the richest nation in the world. Missionaries put stops to blood feuds, recorded tribe histories in alphabets and languages created for those tribes, and have brought medical and financial aid to billions of people.
i'm not sure if going into measuring the total tonnage of good Christianity has brought to the world is the best way to go. at best, it's 50/50. lets look at some counter balances to the good christianity has brought
-the three G's God, Glory, and Gold . the reasons behind the massive rape, pillage, and genocide of numerous indigenous ppls of South America.
-the rwandan massacre, a religious as well as tribal blood-letting
-the Crusades
-the numerous indigenous cultures that were WIPED OUT because of christianity's need for a less heathen ppl
-the rape and emotional destruction of thousands of native children under the auspices of residential schooling in canada
Ahh, Hedonism. Say I was happy at the expense of others. Would that OK? Of course not. How do we define what is better good? Someone being happy or someone beaing healthy? Is it up for individuals to determine, or is there a standard that is universal? Where do we know where our right to be happy ends? What if someone is unjust or selfish themselves when they say that their rights are being infringed upon?
i have no idea where you are pulling this from. nowhere did i qualify or go onto the nature of a moral happiness, and nowhere did i hint that what i was talking about was an amoral happiness. this is an entire philosophical debate unrelated to what the thrust of my point was.
I don't know about you, Bill, but I've lost myself in God's word, prayer, and discussions about God for hours at a time. The fondest memory I have is from a missions trip I took in Chicago, where 6 of us sat at a table, eating Cheez-Its, drinking Mountain Dew, talking about the incredible things God did in our lives and the lives of our friends, until 2 A.M. And it wasn't the Dew that kept us up so late, we went to sleep because only then did the last of our sextet finish discussion the finer points of Armenianism and it's effect on his relationship with God.
so one would say that relationship, that knowledge of God is important yes? that is one of the MAIN reasons i'm not religious any more. because that knowledge, that realtionship, is temporally and spatially bound, which is inherently unfair, unjust, and without compassion. if you were a Australian Aboriginal in 500BC, you could never ever have that knowledge. explain that to me please. explain how it is just.
But, who would want to go to a party thrown by a whore? She's providing a free gift, but if everyone thinks she is someone she is not, who will want to go?
Totally OT here, but Jesus would. jesus was a hippie supremo el compassionario.
Christianity is about more that fulfillment, or my own little life and how God's made it so much better. Christianity is about how God himself has stepped into human history and affected every single person on the planet.
except the druids, or the babylonians, or the chinese in 300 BC, or the japanese in 100AD. well, sure, in a very He's Saved Them Without Them Knowing kinda way, but not in a personal relationship kinda way. not in the Selfish God type way that CS Lewis so often refers to. that god will ahve us, and not share us.
more OT, didja know Lewis was a friend of Tolkien. ah, you prolly did.
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See this is why I don't get involved in internet religious debates. They turn into massive threads, each post comprising pages of quotes, counter-points, arguments, witty sub-commentary, and all around pontificating. Every once in a while they're punctuated by a two line response from someone who didn't read ANYTHING that was posted before, but only came in to say 'Jesus is sux, i worshap saten forevar!' just to get a rise out of people.
Eventually it becomes impossible to follow the discussion as it becomes something more like five discussions all crossed together in each post. Give me a friendly chat in a comfy chair, preferably with a irish coffee and all night to discuss away the meaning of life with a friendly compatriot ANYTIME. :D
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They turn into massive threads, each post comprising pages of quotes, counter-points, arguments, witty sub-commentary, and all around pontificating.
so, what are you saying? that i'm a massive threadhead? (i am not making subcommentary.. oh wait. i am.. just here tho.. maybe META sub commentary. damn, now i'm making META META sub commentary)*waves big pope hat madly*
Every once in a while they're punctuated by a two line response from someone who didn't read ANYTHING that was posted before, but only came in to say 'Jesus is sux, i worshap saten forevar!' just to get a rise out of people.
SO WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?!?! that we should EAT penguins?! huh?!? even penguin BABIES?!?! what about the CHILDREN BOB!?! THE CHILDREN!!! btw, "Hedgehogs r00lz teh worldz0r, even more than satan!!!"
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Teehee. I'll go read your 'Davinci Code' if you'll go read 'The Case for Christ' by one Lee Strobel. It's a study touching on merely the high points of the evidence that Christ really existed as an individual who believed that he was God incarnate, who went around doing miracles, and who was really executed and yet who was also really seen up and prancing around three days later. I'd be surprised if the Davinci Code had anything to offer in the way of tangible evidence for someone being able to mass invent a religion and tell people, "Oh, by the way, you've all believed this for YEARS before now, isn't that nice? Now everyone go forth and no one ever question where this belief suddenly came from. Definitely not out of thin air."
MY DAD READ THAT. EXCELLENT BOOK. FREAKING EXCELLENT.
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See this is why I don't get involved in internet religious debates. They turn into massive threads, each post comprising pages of quotes, counter-points, arguments, witty sub-commentary, and all around pontificating. Every once in a while they're punctuated by a two line response from someone who didn't read ANYTHING that was posted before, but only came in to say 'Jesus is sux, i worshap saten forevar!' just to get a rise out of people.
Eventually it becomes impossible to follow the discussion as it becomes something more like five discussions all crossed together in each post. Give me a friendly chat in a comfy chair, preferably with a irish coffee and all night to discuss away the meaning of life with a friendly compatriot ANYTIME. :D
OMG DBL POST OLO
But Bob: We really need to get a LM ventrilo server.
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But Bob: We really need to get a LM ventrilo server.
See? There's always that one guy who has to come interject a random offensive line like that for no good reason except to tick people off! ( :p )
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But Bob: We really need to get a LM ventrilo server.
See? There's always that one guy who has to come interject a random offensive line like that for no good reason except to tick people off! ( :p )
...but I started the conversation.
BUT I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN! YOU ARE A SICK, TWISTED SON OF A B****, COMING IN A RELIGIOUS TOPIC AND F***ING IT ALL UP FOR US YOU SICK MOTHER F***ING PIECE OF F***ING S***CAKES!!!
:p
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Teehee. I'll go read your 'Davinci Code' if you'll go read 'The Case for Christ' by one Lee Strobel. It's a study touching on merely the high points of the evidence that Christ really existed as an individual who believed that he was God incarnate, who went around doing miracles, and who was really executed and yet who was also really seen up and prancing around three days later. I'd be surprised if the Davinci Code had anything to offer in the way of tangible evidence for someone being able to mass invent a religion and tell people, "Oh, by the way, you've all believed this for YEARS before now, isn't that nice? Now everyone go forth and no one ever question where this belief suddenly came from. Definitely not out of thin air."
Strobel has written like 6 'a case for' books, definitely a good read, expecially for a struggling christian (pretty much any of them, but 'for christ' is one of the best). My church worships the guy, its acctually pretty wierd.
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Case for Faith is another good one, focusing on the common barricades to faith. Maybe Niteowl should read it... :p I like them because they're not in depth beat you in the face religion books. They're just 'here are some facts from some people who look like they know what they're talking about' sort of books. The kind you can read lightly and take away some interesting points to ponder later.
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so one would say that relationship, that knowledge of God is important yes? that is one of the MAIN reasons i'm not religious any more. because that knowledge, that realtionship, is temporally and spatially bound, which is inherently unfair, unjust, and without compassion. if you were a Australian Aboriginal in 500BC, you could never ever have that knowledge. explain that to me please. explain how it is just.
The hard thing to realize is that God doesn't owe anyone anything. Our debt is to God, and not the other thing around. It would not compromise God's just nature in any way, if he simply did not die on the cross. "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels ? (Mat 26:53)"
God can save whoever he sees fit to save, we deserve nothing but the pennance for our sinful actions.
There's also a verse (Romans 8:29 I think...) that says "Those who he foreknew he also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son," which basically says that the people God knows will accept Him, He finds ways to reach.
If this is true, the inverse is also true, that if God knows a person will not accept Him, that an effort may or may not be made to share the gospel with them, but ultimately, God knows those people are going to reject Him no matter what, and it's His perogative to send people or not. He may very well decide that His flock would be better used preaching to the willing, and it wouldn't compromise God's character in the slightest, nor would it change the end result of who knows God on the last day and who doesn't.
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God can save whoever he sees fit to save, we deserve nothing but the pennance for our sinful actions.
again with the salvation.. this is NOT about the salvatory nature of christianity. it's about knowledge thereof. and since the christian god is biased towards a certain subgroup of ppl because of when and where they were born, i cannot accept him. that is not compassion to me.
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God can save whoever he sees fit to save, we deserve nothing but the pennance for our sinful actions.
again with the salvation.. this is NOT about the salvatory nature of christianity. it's about knowledge thereof. and since the christian god is biased towards a certain subgroup of ppl because of when and where they were born, i cannot accept him. that is not compassion to me.
Then you assert that your idea of compassion is good, and God's is bad.
You have no basis for such a claim.
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Man I wish I had some popcorn and a flag to wave while a read through threads like this.
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God can save whoever he sees fit to save, we deserve nothing but the pennance for our sinful actions.
again with the salvation.. this is NOT about the salvatory nature of christianity. it's about knowledge thereof. and since the christian god is biased towards a certain subgroup of ppl because of when and where they were born, i cannot accept him. that is not compassion to me.
Then you assert that your idea of compassion is good, and God's is bad.
You have no basis for such a claim.
hm. no, i assert that compassion has a set definition. the current description of a christian god who prefers ppl based on place and time makes that god uncompassionate. in your religion this is fully within this god's right. that's fine. i'm just not digging a god who's like that.
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wow. all i have to say is:
where's rad4christ?
come on tim...
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As I've already stated, God doesn't prefer people based on place and time, He places people in place and time so that those who would accept the truth and be saved are the ones who heard it. At least, that's my understanding and interpretation of that verse. I claim no infallability, but I don't see any apparent contradictions in that interpretations.
And if God doesn't define compassion, who does Niteowl?
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And if God doesn't define compassion, who does Niteowl?
OH there was so an implied different wording in there. I totally saw that as "who does? Niteowl?" :lol:
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OH there was so an implied different wording in there. I totally saw that as "who does? Niteowl?" :lol:
If he really said that, he shouldve been banned just for the major arse kissing ;)
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As I've already stated, God doesn't prefer people based on place and time, He places people in place and time so that those who would accept the truth and be saved are the ones who heard it. At least, that's my understanding and interpretation of that verse. I claim no infallability, but I don't see any apparent contradictions in that interpretations.
And if God doesn't define compassion, who does Niteowl?
ah, so god predetermines, being all knowing, who will accept and be saved and who weren't? so all the folks who were out of place or/and time from the message are in no way able to be saved? seems like it's subverting free will?
compassion is just a word; from my understanding of the word, the christian god doesn't fit it.
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ah, so god predetermines, being all knowing, who will accept and be saved and who weren't? so all the folks who were out of place or/and time from the message are in no way able to be saved? seems like it's subverting free will?
compassion is just a word; from my understanding of the word, the christian god doesn't fit it.
Warning: Read quote slowly. Not doing so may result in Confusion, Dislexia, Brain Damage, or even death.
Please read responsibly.
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Folks, this thread is about Final Hope Faith, a Christian gamer hangout. This thread is not the place for debating:
- Who's religion is better
- Who's right about God
- Anything other than Final Hope Faith
Final Hope Faith's forums might be a great place to take these arguments, but they don't belong here. Tone down the intensity and get back on-topic, now.
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http://s4.invisionfree.com/Final_Hope_Fait...hp?showtopic=20 (http://s4.invisionfree.com/Final_Hope_Faith/index.php?showtopic=20)
Done.
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Wooo wee! This is interesting, isn't it Bob? :lol:
*passes the popcorn*