Overly Chatty Penguins
The Ready Room => General => Topic started by: A Boojum Snark on July 15, 2004, 01:16:15 PM
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I wasn't too sure on this idea so I wanted to see what you all thought before I posted on ns.org (and ya think I should put it in I&S or pub beta disc?)
The backstory to NS says that marines don't actually "build" the structures, but rather hold their hand over the area to authorize the nanites to continue and produce the structure. Now it would only make sense that some things would require higher and/or multiple authorization. This is where my idea comes from.
Res towers, phase gates, proto labs, and siege cannons would require TWO or more marines to +use before they begin to be built by the nanites. This would prevent lone rambos from being very effective to help the team, but would not touch the big debate over LA/skulk combat effectivness.
My reasonings for those structures (aside from the obvious rambo/ninja nerf) can be figured out with a little thinking. Siege cannons are extremely powerful. Prototypes are... well... prototypes, secretive/classified/whatnot. Res nodes aren't things that janitor bob and nurse jane can tap into freely like an electrical outlet, but rather need higher authorization. Lastly, phase gates are somewhat risky and unstable (telefrags) ,and aside from being the main structure behind this idea, seem like something that would require more authorization.
So all in all, rambos cannot be effective as they are now, no more ninja PGs or lone RT cappers. Yet, it doesnt touch how well marines do while in a fight, which can be dealt with later if needed.
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Ewwww. This means if you see two marines you now only have to kill one and the other becomes useless. The lone capper, and the lone marine building a PG are staples of NS. It's how things get done. The disadvantage of being that lone marine is that you are just ONE guy. It only takes a few bites to kill you. If you're not just camping a hallway, but are actually trying to put up structures like a good flex marine, you are almost constantly at risk of dying to anything that comes by. Especially if that something knows how to be properly sneaky.
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nonono!!
thats horrible idea! your taking that from a compleatly alien view! not from both/1 hell your not even thinking of what a comm would have to go trhough to get BASE built! little own killing anychance of a smalll server! Ninjas make ns what it is almost! and since when has 2 people EVER been able ot listen to their comm and work together!? I am against this idea compleatly/1 it goes gainst everything I stand for! (and rambos arnt bad, their just misunderstood!)
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This is a unique idea, to be sure, and needs to be fully understood before the advantages become clear.
As much fun as ninja phase gates and the surprise shotty rush are, they should not remain. With this idea, the rambo can perhaps get a TF/turrets up, awaiting the necessary backup to build the sieges and PG.
In game theory, this also makes sense. Marines are not supposed to survive when found solo. The truth to that currently is debatable, but at least this way the rambos cannot do too much for the team.
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Ewwww. This means if you see two marines you now only have to kill one and the other becomes useless. The lone capper, and the lone marine building a PG are staples of NS. It's how things get done. The disadvantage of being that lone marine is that you are just ONE guy. It only takes a few bites to kill you. If you're not just camping a hallway, but are actually trying to put up structures like a good flex marine, you are almost constantly at risk of dying to anything that comes by. Especially if that something knows how to be properly sneaky.
Agreed. Lone rines building structures and stuff are a major part of NS gameplay and strategy. Besides, manditory multiple-autorization would eliminate half the ninja sieging, ninja relocations, and other ninja whatnots :p
In game theory, this also makes sense. Marines are not supposed to survive when found solo. The truth to that currently is debatable, but at least this way the rambos cannot do too much for the team.
The point of the marines is that no marine is ever alone, he is always being overwatched by the commander
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I think that if the marine rambo is too strong, the solution is to improve the base skulk. Whether it be by an armor improvement, a base speed improvement, making the skulk model itself, and the hitbox, slightly smaller, or what, I'm not sure. But I'm much happier when a balance is created by adding weight to one side, and not by taking from the other.
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NOOO!
We must have ninjas!
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...
You guys are pathetic <_<
This means if you see two marines you now only have to kill one and the other becomes useless.
Yes, so maybe you should move out as a team like marines were intended to leaving perhaps 1 or 2 guys to hop the phase gates and keep tabs on base and outposts, but then, turrets make good alerts too.
If you're not just camping a hallway, but are actually trying to put up structures like a good flex marine, you are almost constantly at risk of dying to anything that comes by. Especially if that something knows how to be properly sneaky.
Here is a classic case of comparing two different skill levels. If the alien team has great sneaking skills, you must plan and balance assuming the marines are equal and would not be easily snuck up upon.
I think that if the marine rambo is too strong, the solution is to improve the base skulk. Whether it be by an armor improvement, a base speed improvement, making the skulk model itself, and the hitbox, slightly smaller, or what, I'm not sure. But I'm much happier when a balance is created by adding weight to one side, and not by taking from the other.
Is this not what has been going on build after build? and is also a major splitting point of the whole NS community? This whole idea was trying to do something without poking the skulk-vs-LA dog with a stick.
bob:
The lone capper, and the lone marine building a PG are staples of NS. It's how things get done.
bill:
Ninjas make ns what it is almost!
Uhh... yea, thats how things are done, and it is not right. Marines are supposed to be a team, not get things done buy having lone soldiers running around.
and since when has 2 people EVER been able ot listen to their comm and work together!?
Again, uhh...? All the time on LM? and again, marines are supposed to be a team, if even two people can't listen, you shouldnt win.
thats horrible idea! your taking that from a compleatly alien view! not from both
Wrong. I have never in my life been one to look at things one-sided unless I have hard facts (hard facts like the US flag as 50 stars). I wouldn't mind this one bit when playing on marines.
killing anychance of a small server!
Classic was ever intended for small servers? That is news to me, I thought that is what Combat was for.
I guess I'm done with this thread, I thought people around here would understand what I was trying to do but it seems just as futile as the ns.org boards.
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I understand your point, and I understand what you're trying to do, I just think that the ultimate effect would be more painful that it's worth. The two man squad becomes obsolete, because one man dying means that the remaining marine can't do anything short of running back to base or just shooting aliens randomly for a while.
In fact what this would do is encourge lame hallway camping rambos even MORE. "Sorry comm, I can't get you RTs, I'm just one guy. But I can sit in this hall and shoot skulks all day long, hooray!"
Marine strategy would have to be totally changed to allow for extra marines to keep up deaths. If it takes two to build something than the most useful effect of two man squads, "Cover me while I build this," is also useless. Now you can't build without two men. Now you have to have a THIRD person watching those two build. One skulk comes along and takes out that one guy and now they can't build it, because as soon as they start building, they're cannon fodder. That one skulk just has to make enough noise to distract ONE of them, and they can't build. While he's making noise, he can also be screaming for backup, if the first marine put too many bullets into him.
It's a major, far reaching, incredibly painful nerf for marines. Like I said, I appreciate the problem, and I don't in any way want you to feel insulted or like your efforts are futile. But you know how incredibly complex NS is already. Something that seems like the smallest tweak can send the whole house of cards crashing down.
Just don't leave in a huff. Leave with a smiley on your face. :)
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Note to self: Set Bob to "posts need admin approval" so I can get in a good point once in a while.
Oh yeah, everything that Bob said seconded.
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I think it would be safe to take the NS backstory and completely throw it out, completely remove any connections between it and the gameplay. I say this because every day that goes by, every new patch that is released, the game becomes less like how the original stories written for it are. The storyline part of the game, the ambient experience, was ruined for me when I began realizing that most everybody ups their gamma so they can see in every dark corner and uses custom sprites that shows them exactly where to shoot, among other advantage-giving setting tweaks.
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Yeah abs, ignore me ive never been good t arguing anyway but bob on the other hand is crazyly awsome at it, i second ANYTHING he says.
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I think it would be safe to take the NS backstory and completely throw it out, completely remove any connections between it and the gameplay. I say this because every day that goes by, every new patch that is released, the game becomes less like how the original stories written for it are. The storyline part of the game, the ambient experience, was ruined for me when I began realizing that most everybody ups their gamma so they can see in every dark corner and uses custom sprites that shows them exactly where to shoot, among other advantage-giving setting tweaks.
you have no idea to what point i agree with you grimm. my game is still completely the same as the day i dled it. well, exept the digesting pic i got sick of.
No extra skins, nothing to help me aim, nothing that will unjustly improve my skills.
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I think it would be safe to take the NS backstory and completely throw it out, completely remove any connections between it and the gameplay. I say this because every day that goes by, every new patch that is released, the game becomes less like how the original stories written for it are. The storyline part of the game, the ambient experience, was ruined for me when I began realizing that most everybody ups their gamma so they can see in every dark corner and uses custom sprites that shows them exactly where to shoot, among other advantage-giving setting tweaks.
you have no idea to what point i agree with you grimm. my game is still completely the same as the day i dled it. well, exept the digesting pic i got sick of.
No extra skins, nothing to help me aim, nothing that will unjustly improve my skills.
oh oh! me 3 me 3!
way to give in to peer pressure grimm!!!!!!!!!! :D
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I say the biggest problem is that the marine team now equals instead of 5 men and 1 commander, its 2 men and 1 commander.
Since plenty of skulks out there can take two marines reguardless of skill level..., now its a 6v2 game.
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I think it would be safe to take the NS backstory and completely throw it out, completely remove any connections between it and the gameplay. I say this because every day that goes by, every new patch that is released, the game becomes less like how the original stories written for it are. The storyline part of the game, the ambient experience, was ruined for me when I began realizing that most everybody ups their gamma so they can see in every dark corner and uses custom sprites that shows them exactly where to shoot, among other advantage-giving setting tweaks.
you have no idea to what point i agree with you grimm. my game is still completely the same as the day i dled it. well, exept the digesting pic i got sick of.
No extra skins, nothing to help me aim, nothing that will unjustly improve my skills.
oh oh! me 3 me 3!
way to give in to peer pressure grimm!!!!!!!!!! :D
I'm one of the buggers in this club too! Either too lazy, or too stubborn, to get some new skins. Kodiac, however......I can't remember the last time I saw him using a standard skin :( Now you all know his leet h4x.
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i'd love to see lmgs nerfed instead, make the upgrade more useful for them or whatever, but atm marines own any long hallways, as seen from a good aiming camper on most of the maps, perhaps add more vents and less 'rofl i have skill you die' spots, i think it could be a map problem as far as that goes, but marines seem to just pwn early game even without upgrades (as seen when i comm, get a decent team and take over the map in rts its over)
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Which all boils down to skulks being underpowered.
Increase base armor points by 5, speed by 75, and you have a GAME.
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No. Just, no.
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rad4Christ,Jul 18 2004, 12:17 PM] No. Just, no.
truer sentiments than i couldn't have come up with nicely put rad
rambos and ninjas are an essential part of the game and make it to where the aliens actually have to defend all the hives and rts they have. without rambos you could leave a hive completely undefended if all he could do was build small things like tfs and turrets
edit added ninjas to my statement
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I dont really see skulks being underpowered. Its just a problem that since they have no ranged attacks, and since people are most used to FPS at a distance, that skulks get shot up at long ranges. But then when they start closely, marines have the hardest of times hitting a skulk which can kill them in half a second.
It comes down to the map too. Good marines will try to force skulks to attack them in long hallways, while good skulks will try to minimize the distance. Then all it is is a waiting game and whos has the faster reaction time close quarters.
Its already hard enough to hit skulks who can move at an average of 350, let alone 425.
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Considering how skulks used to be set up, 3.0 has definitely hurt skulk gameplay. In 1.0x and 2.0x, skulks at least had a chance of running up to a marine from a medium distance away. Now, in 3.0, the only way skulks can take out marines is by ambushing them, they've been forced into having to use guerilla tactics. The fact that skulk bites have a knockback effect only screws them over even more.
The changes to skulk gameplay coupled with some horrible maps (gameplay wise) such as ns_ayumi (two hives have rather long hallways from which marines can camp and shoot anyone spawning or running at them), and ns_metal (many, many long, open hallways, especially around marine start), skulks really don't have much of a chance anymore.
I dislike 3.0 for the sole fact that it makes rambos so effective, to the point where actual teamwork isn't all that necessary. A lone marine can set up a tfac, turrets, stave off incoming skulks, and before anyone knows it the hive is down. I blame all the people that constantly whined in 1.0x and 2.0x that "Marines never win". Marines won plenty of times in the games here on the Lunixmonster, and it was all due to one thing: Teamwork. Cooperating with your fellow marines and listening to your commander's orders was key in winning games in 2.0, but everyone just wanted to run off and shoot stuff like it was Quake with different aliens. So, the move was made to make the people happy but unbalance the game more.
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Rambos = Bad.
Ninjas = Good.
I mean, there is nothing like being stuck attacking the 2nd Hive, when suddenly your team gets whiped out, Baconed, then all phases to the 1st hive which goes down very quick thanks to the Ninja phase gate. This would kill that strategy, which is one of the best strategies out there(and not overpowered, either, being aliens can get it easy).
Really, the only way to kill the rambo off is more skulk hiding places.
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Had an idea...
The original idea of this post (before it got led astray... ;) ) was to reduce the effectiveness of lone marines. Looking at the idea presented, it made lone marines COMPLETELY ineffective.
What if we simply boosted group marines? lone marines would still work, just not as well as a group. Let me explain how this might work...
Say it takes X amount of time for a lone marine to build an RT. Logically, with two marines building the rt, it takes X/2 seconds. But we could change that. Make it so that when you have more than one marine building a structure, their build speed gets boosted. Perhaps with two marines, it gets built 20% faster. Three marines, 40% faster. That's on top of the increase in build time by simply having more marines building.
To balance this, I suppose we'd have to slow base marine building time. Which means that the lone rambo, running around and building rt's, is now slower. As well, more of a chance for the ninja outside the hive to get caught, cuz he's there longer.
Near as i can tell, this sidesteps the skulk v LA problem, while still slowing down a rambo marine. I believe that was the original intent of this topic.
As to side effects that I can see, you might run into problems with large marine teams, with like 6 people building 1 ip. I suppose the sensible thing to do then would be to put a cap on the total build speed of the building, so that it's not overpowered in that case.
Questions? Comments?
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Slink, that sounds like a viable option. I like the non-interference with combat effectiveness. The only problem is that it would affect building structures at marine spawn, like when the comm is yelling at the assault team for someone to run back and build the protolab in the base. Lowering the marine building speed would slow things like that down and mess with the game progression balance of NS.
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Many a time, Flayra has said he does NOT want stuff like that. It would work, sure- but it makes it harder to instantly apply to the game. Anything that makes NS harder to get used to is out.
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Well it's true that ninjas can get the pg and tfs up, but it takes the team to actually hold the siege point until the hive goes down. If the rines don't quickly jump over and guard the ninjapoint, aliens will converge and tear it apart. It's a risk, not a sure move. Often res is wasted on the pg and tf when the ninja is killed by a lone skulk.
It was a good idea Snark, but it is just too much of a nerf to the rine side. Two 'rines to every tower would really slow things down, and put the aliens at a major advantage for only needing one.
And, though its been said already, everything that Bob said is 100% correct. (Except for changing the skulks).
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Hmm, nice points satiagraha and quaunaut. Guess it's a bust. Thanks a lot for the feedback though.
Back to square one, then...
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all of this is intersting, but i think some of us are missing the point.....define "ninja" and define "rambo"
If a rambo is defined as "a lone marine who does not work for the good of the team", then a ninja must therefore be "a lone marine who works [/I]for the good of the team". So the question is "how do decrease the rambo's effectiveness and yet not affect the ninja?" answer : dont. Lone marines are screwed anyway, and we all know how many times <insert your name here> shot a skulk all the way down a hallway and not killed it. also, decreaseing the lone marines effectiveness hurts the new player exponentially more than it hurts us. Remember, they dont know whats going on, and if they have a buddy showing them the ropes, that buddy WILL die first. (it always happens, and we all know it) , a 1337 skulk with m4g1c4l h4>< will fly out of the sky and own them. and anyway, ramboes and ninjas are hoplessly intertwined. they both work alone, and the ninja does alot of the smae things a rambo does. Cant hurt one without hurting the other.
I say leave them be, we arent all great at the game and i always lose as a ninja/rambo/heavy/jp/comm to a single skulk. (yup, ph34r me for i am nub!)
hope i didnt bore anyone to death
Edit : /me = ninja (or at least, i try)
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people like lochness,ebnar,keyser just to name a few, who completly shut down an average alien team by ramboing and killing RTs and things while kill any skulk to walk near them, and the comm just gives them meds and ammos while the rest of the team gets RTs up. the way to counterattack that is to remove knockback, and to boost skulk AC to 30 at default, so with carapace its at 50
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I can't stand it anymore, I have to reply...
So many of your are missing my point. You say that rambo/ninja/whatever (I class them one in the same) are a good strategy and is how things get done, and that what I am suggesting would upset this and kill those strats. Quite frankly, DUH! That's my whole point, it IS how things get done, and its WRONG, Marines are supposed to work as a team. I AM trying to destroy the rambo/ninja strategies. <_<
Most likely other things would have to be done alongside this. Making lone marines weaker or skulks strong will NOT solve the problem however.
Take a current ninja, do they ever actually enter combat with a skulk? No. They hide from them and avoid them, often walking, crawling, or waiting to avoid being heard or seen. If they do confront a skulk and kill it their whole plan is ruined because either that skulk will alert the team, or someone else will notice the hivesight alert.
Thus beefs/nerfs relating to combat will not help, only something like inherent close-range SoF for skulks would work (im not saying I want this, just an example).
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so what you are saying is that when the rines are pinned in base with no hope but to rambo or ninja a pg up near a hive that omj game over. yes this would take out the epic games but in the end i don't consider a total slaughter by one team a good game since it for one isn't fun for both teams and everyone involved. epic games though long and sometimes boring do have a certain appeal all their own which makes ns enjoyable cause imho these games are great and satisfy my need to play ns. i respect your opinion in this matter but you have to understand that not everyone either here in the LM community or in the NS community will like this suggestion due to the points i have mentioned.
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Well, a random idea I just had.
If ONE marine is building a structure, make it take six times as long to build and be very noisy as to attract attention.
With more then one marine, the nanites are focused and thus, building is faster and quieter.
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well that would work i guess LB but i doubt it will go anywhere just like i doubt abs's will go somewhere as well due to the fact that no one really wants this part of the game hindered too much o_O
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Well, what about this situation? Playing on Nancy last night, Mother starting hive; there was your typical violent struggle for Mess Hall, but aliens eventually get the upper hand with a lamed up Mess and Crew Lockers. Finally we get the nodes behind the front lines capped and it seems that we have the win for sure, still nobody's put the second hive up yet. Eventually I skulk into their base and notice an active phase gate... turns out Bob had managed to sneak past all the lame and make it into Port. A couple of minutes later, they've spread out and taken down all 4 nodes behind Mess Hall, and eventually snuck a PG and shotty rushed Mother down.
Basically we lost to this concept you want to nerf... which has merit because we went through so much effort to take the upper hand then lost. Personally though I thought it was a great comeback. Maybe if the marines dominated NS I might agree, but without ninja PGs the aliens just aren't nervous enough. Fades > rambos.