Overly Chatty Penguins
The Ready Room => General => Topic started by: Lito on March 28, 2004, 06:39:55 AM
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even though this thread won't be put into action, i'm just voicing my thoughts.
Since co_spawncamp's respawn system allows you to keep your lifeform, i believe that even if you "protect" your friend eating the commchair, you are still waiting for someone to spawn, and hence get in the first bite before he or she realises what the hell is happening, it is spawncamping.
"STFU NOOB, its combat, you're SUPPOST to spawncamp"
oh, well then, i'll just sit here, shining up my shotgun while pistoling the hive a few times every now and then, then splattering your guts on the floor when you spawn. Sure, its viable, its combat!
"Dude, i was protecting my friend"
Your "friend" doesn't need to be protected in a friggin 4 vs 4 game when you spawn one at a time. Any bigger and it might be viable.
"Haha, noob, you just can't kill us, thats why you call it spawncamping"
Hey buddy, how about you go marines for once, and you see how hard it is to kill a spawncamper, alien whore.
I really hope Flayra's taking alot of thought about his new little game mode in beta 4
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I agree it's very annoying to not have a chance as marines but decent shots can do the same towards the alien team (Look at good shotty rushes). Almost impossible to counter unless you are fade or onus. I'll try to focus more on the hive and command chair.
I might be wrong but i believe there's a cvar to protect those who have just spawned. It's defaulted to 0 but we might fix the current problem with it.
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The thing is, if you're biting the CC or shooting the hive, and an alien / marine spawns, it's in your best interest to kill him.
Let's look at it this way. If you bite the CC but don't kill the respawning marine, chances are you die nigh on instantly. On the other hand, if you quickly run over and kill that marine then hit the CC again, you're going to get a lot more damage in. While yes, it is annoying, at least they're not just specifically standing around spawn camping, they are taking the CC down too. Hell, yesterday in a 2v2 i single handedly took down the CC as a focus skulk, only stopping to leap out, kill the respawning marine and leap back. Yes this might be considered "lame", but what else am i supposed to do? Let them kill me? Sorry, but i want to stay alive and win the game, not fanny about for half an hour because i only manage to get 1-2 bites on the CC.
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thats why *Ding!* servers can set to invulerbility spawn setting for a second or two.
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I think the situation being described though is two people - one biting the cc, the other just loitering around, protecting the biter. Essentially, the protector is spawncamping.
'course, with FF on, you can't get too many attackers on the cc anyway, because you end up all biting each other.
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o_O Respawn invul would make co games last even LONGER! I think they just need to take down the hp on cc/hives by 50%. This would make the spawn camping end faster :p. Thats the only real problem,, You have to spawn camp for 2-3mins just to get the cc dead.
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thats why *Ding!* servers can set to invulerbility spawn setting for a second or two.
You are behind the times, that was removed two patches ago.
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You are behind the times, that was removed two patches ago.
aye. i stand corrected
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I honestly can't think of a single round of Combat I've ever played that wasn't won because the entire other team was dead and my team kept it that way by killing the hive/chair while killing spawners... well, maybe 1 or 2 2v2 games where both opponents were trying to kill my spawn while my team killed theirs...
really, the only way to make it so that you don't have to spawncamp to win would be to make you spawn in a place other than the chair/hive rooms...
anyone feel like making a combat map where you don't start in the chair/hive rooms? :> I'd play it! :)
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yeah, i've seen games win wihout spawncamping.. but these are the painfully long games, wehre boths sides fully tech up, and each attack each other's base through a different path. and it's a "WHO CAN KILL THE HIVE/CC fastes!!!"
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anyone feel like making a combat map where you don't start in the chair/hive rooms? :> I'd play it! :)
yes, i do! I had plans in my head about a spawning room with tubes/teleporters that lead into the marine room, thereby minimizing spawncamping. If i wasnt so afraid of so many failed mapping attempts I would have started last week. v_v
seriously, every map ive tried to make, even complete test ones(marine and alien spawns, not just a readyroom), have ended with errors that i have no idea how to fix...
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that actually would be good, but it would be best is 2-3 aliens/marines spawned in the CC/hive room while the rest spawn in different rooms away from the hive/cc, to pinpoint Spawncampers
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co_rebirth works that way kind of Diablus. The situation is the same though, as long as people are Skulk/LA spawnrape is going to happen.
I'd suggest to just do what we did yesterday evening, do it cal-rules like where only marines have to attack. It works out alot better, because then each side has a different objective, instead of 2 sides trying to do the same 2 things and setup a spawnrape alongside.
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ya that worked out quite well saltz but it would be hard to enforce if new people joined in game and no one told them or something to that effect
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I'm still in the same mind I was a month ago, that spawn invulnerability of a mere second would fix all these problems. But the devs in their infinite wisdom don't see it that way and had to go and take it out. It seems like each time they've tried to fix co, they've only made the problems worse. Ah well, this is why it's still a beta.
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ya that worked out quite well saltz but it would be hard to enforce if new people joined in game and no one told them or something to that effect
It'd probably be workable to find a server mod that simply changes co_ a bit.
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anyone feel like making a combat map where you don't start in the chair/hive rooms? :> I'd play it! :)
yes, i do! I had plans in my head about a spawning room with tubes/teleporters that lead into the marine room, thereby minimizing spawncamping. If i wasnt so afraid of so many failed mapping attempts I would have started last week. v_v
seriously, every map ive tried to make, even complete test ones(marine and alien spawns, not just a readyroom), have ended with errors that i have no idea how to fix...
This has been covered in great depth over at the NS mapping forum. But i'll briefly go into some points.
It's impossible to have a spawn that can't be camped. If you teleport in, they can camp the teleport destinations. If you have to go through a door that can only be opened on one side (a la TFC), they can camp that. The only thing that will stop spawn camping is the 1-2 second spawn invulnerability. And Bob, we're still in beta, nothing is final.
This is one of my initial worries with open beta. The amount of people that complain.
First and foremost, it's a beta. If something's desperately wrong, chances are it will be changed. Beta testing is all about tweaking and experimentation.
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it's still a beta.
Bob, we're still in beta, nothing is final
Well yes, I was rather aware of that. ;)
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Bob, it's still in Beta.
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It's impossible to have a spawn that can't be camped. If you teleport in, they can camp the teleport destinations. If you have to go through a door that can only be opened on one side (a la TFC), they can camp that. The only thing that will stop spawn camping is the 1-2 second spawn invulnerability.
well, while these points are valid, I think having a separate spawn room would certainly help, I think moreso than 1 second of invincibility.
as it stands, 1 early focus skulk in a small game can take out the chair solo, running over to any spawning armor 0 marines, killing them, and resuming biting the chair. a couple seconds of invulnerability would just mean the skulk has to wait a couple seconds before he clicks his mouse to kill the marine. the marine would still stand next to no chance of killing a skulk that's already within biting distance. marines stand the best chance when a distance is put between them and their enemies.
that would be the advantage of another spawn room.
of course 1 or 2 could still guard the door or spawn room while 1 or 2 bite the chair, but this setup would still be advantageous for a couple reasons.
first, like I already hinted at, it would require more aliens to pull off a successful spawn camp.
secondly, it would draw sharper lines between spawncamping and simply killing the chair/hive. as it stands, saying 'no spawncamping in combat' is basically akin to saying 'no trying to win,' or 'don't kill people who are trying to kill you while you attack the goal.' if you started in a different room, it would be more obviously unethical to camp that room or the door outside that room, because you obviously wouldn't be trying to kill the hive/chair at the same time. it would actually make sense to say this practice is illegal.
third, the spawn rooms don't necessarily have to be anywhere near the hive/armory rooms... if it took marines 20 seconds to walk from their spawn to the chair, spawncamping would not only become unnecessary, but undesirable. it also might add more strategy to the game, as it would become wise to designate defenders and attackers... multiple entrances from the spawn room to the chair room would also make it impossible to camp them all.
fourth, a 1-way door would give a team a chance to let 2 or 3 ppl spawn before deciding to head out -- safety in numbers and all that...
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it's still a beta.
Bob, we're still in beta, nothing is final
Well yes, I was rather aware of that. ;)
Bob, it's still in Beta.
Bob, you do realise it's still in beta, right?
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^^
it's important to remeber this *is* a beta
anyone else notice how combat games can regularly last a 1/2 hour, wasn't combat supposed to be quick?
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blackmage's goide on how to make a combat map sans spawncamping
OR how combat was originaly ment to be played
needs:
1x metamod plugin
1x custom map (add more to taste)
metamod plugin:
checks mapname and sv_co_roundtime, if you're on a co_ map and sv_co_roundtime has been exceeded, aliens win
map:
spawns aliens at hive, normally
spawns marines behind an 'airlock' or door or pods or what-have-you
- only marines can open the door
and make some floating room off in the void to put the cc and an easter egg in
yes, marines could just wait in their room/pods/ship/blob/teleporter/caek but then they would loose. it's harder for aliens to spawncamp because the marines should have their bearings before they figure out where the hell that switch is. alien spawncamping isn't as big of a problem because stock aliens vs t3 (tier 3 - arm3 weap3) marines still have a three-shot-kill weapon
edit: the map could somehow kill the cc after 15 minutes as opposed to a metamod plugin
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Swear to god, next person to say 'it's in beta'... :p
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Ok, this is kinda what i had in mind. not that i's in paint because i didnt feel like opening up PS.
I havent touched hammer for months, so excuse me if i got some of the stuff wrong, like that push entity thingy. and about the one way floor, ive only tested it for 1.04 builds. i think it should still work for 3.x versions.
one advantage besides the minimized spawncamping, would be to wait above till all marines have respawned, then drop down all at once for a coordinated retaliation, instead of the usual: one spawn, shoots, dies, waits in line to respawn. Of course, waiting above for your teammates means the aliens will have all that time to chew away at the CC.
think of it as a marine readyroom.
(oh, and aliens will get one too, just to be fair.)
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i know of a map that is brutally, garishly, eye bleedingly ugly (it's done after the style of MXC). but apparenlty has been made to stop spawncamping. it's also incredibly confusing. and did i mention it's ugly?
anyhoo, if LB wantsto see screenshots/see the map, just PM me :)
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NOOOOO!!! Not CO_Pron! MY EYES!!!!
Seriously, although the map is very amusing, it has to be the absolute ugliest map EVER. Not to insult the mapper, of course, the eye bleeding textures are intentional.
I think the best solution for this while still keeping with the accepted style of co maps is maps with large spawn areas. So at least it's not so easy to know exactly where your next kill will spawn in at. Look at, say, co_angst. The size of MS was increased, but all the marines still spawn in that little alcove around the CC/Armory. Having some spawn on the other side of the room or even out in the two halls would help.
I'm (slowly) working on a co map, mostly to learn the mapping tools so I can make a real NS map. But I'm going to try and have enough variations in spawn areas that camping will be difficult.
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Whats that co map with the GIANT marine spawn? With the cc in the pit.... Yeah that map is like impossible to spawncamp, though I did manage to skulk out 3 spawn kills in a row once ^_^, but the HA guys got me.
I'd like to see Co_Pron in the rotation :D!
Oh yeah, it's still in beta.
*edit* Oh yeah, I've managed to single handedly get the CC down to half ages ago in a 6v6 :p, gg spawncamp h4x olll! Spawn Invul for life!
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the big rooms and divided rooms do help to a degree... though the big rooms don't really make it harder for fades to spawncamp, and they probably make it EASIER for lerks to camp =p
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I've read a lot of good suggestions here. The main problem with spawncamping in both NS:C and classic NS relates to the fact that you spawn in the same room as the objective the other team is trying to kill.
To be honest, the majority of the spawn camping that occurs in NS:C games is due to the fact that people never get armor 1 as their first upgrade, and they SHOULD. So long as focus is a kill vs. armor 0, people who go shotgun first (2 levels) are just begging to get leapbited into the void (leap, focus, also 2 levels) In such games, a good skulk can be a fade or onos realllly fast.
You people already reached the basics, though. it's very annoying to get spawncamped, but the spawncamper's alternative is to be the one dying. It's important to keep a close eye on the spawn room so that you don't run off in a group of four, die, and get spawncamped by one skulk waiting in your base.
Remember that UGL NS:C scrims are 4v4. If you watch some demos from those scrims, you will see that a good spawncamp is the only way to win, especially since those games tend to develop with both sides having almost equal levels.
Since a spawning higher lifeform (Fade, Onos) is far less vulnerable than a spawning higher marine (Heavy, Jetpack) due to hive healing, etc.. It's much harder to spawncamp aliens. Hence aliens usually win combat scrims.
Personally, I don't think spawn camping is the worst of NS:C's flaws. :) Whatever, though, we still play it.
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I REALLY like thoraXs' idea, it has great potential.
I fully support you man.
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sorry but all mods are in beta, and public ns 3.0 beta is a joke, he didn't fix anything and ran out of time, and released it so he wouldn't lose fan base, and as far as the spawncamping goes, all the top elite clanners love to do it, so thats why its in the game.
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thats why *Ding!* servers can set to invulerbility spawn setting for a second or two.
You are behind the times, that was removed two patches ago.
Actually I've been on pubs that have invul on at spawn. It's available as a plugin somewhere. However, I don't know if I like that idea. I'd rather have hive umbra or something, invul can kill a well organized rush in seconds.