Overly Chatty Penguins
The Ready Room => General => Topic started by: Lito on April 03, 2004, 07:11:34 PM
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A few rules to follow to unsuck yourself as a commander:
#1. Don't touch those friggin turrets until mid-game.
I know it may look tempting (OMFG, THEY SHOOT BY THEMSELVES!), but turrets are horrible beginning static defence unless you really put alot down, which you don't want to do, as it cripples your res so you can't do anything.
#2. I don't want to see a friggin turret factory in marine base
If you want electrification, then build a turretfactory next to a res node (preferably an important one). then electrify either the tf or res node. The electrify will protect both, and if the res node is an important one (temperature control, mess hall, south loop, etc.) Then you have the option of electing both, or putting turrets down to lock down the choke. let the tf rot in ms isn't going to get you anywhere.
#3, Mines, mines, mines.
Without those turrets, mines are great at killing skulks. When placed effectively, they do a much better job than turrets. 1 pack won't cover a base, though, you'll need minimum 2. And ffs, replace them if they explode. Mines also are useful around small outposts to keep the pesky skulks off while you're rushing that hive.
#4. Warning: May or May not screw the game for you.
Electrify is a very powerful defensive measure, however it'll blow a hole in your wallet the size of my penis (In reality, that would be a small hole, but on the internet, anything is possible!). 30 res can get you: w2,a2, mt + 5res, 2 pg, upgraded armory, etc. Many of those things are much mnore useful than an electrified rt. But i'm not saying don't electrify. Use in moderation.
#5. Rush crucial upgrades.
Your marines arn't going to kill Holy_Devil out there with your puny level 1 lmg, and lvl 0 armor. w1 and a1 is a MUST in the beginning, some comms like mt in the beginning too. All three of these upgrades can mean the difference between "OMG GUYS YOU SUCK, IT WAS JUST 1 SKULK" and "NSPlayer (LMG) Holy_Devil". And if you can't make a decision on where to spend res, always spend on upgrades. Electrifying that node is no where near as useful as w2. Also, keep the upgrades coming, even if you're a bit short on res. If you don't keep up with the times, your upgrades will not be able to catch up with what the marines are going up against, and sooner or later, you're going to have two fades on your marines and you only have a1. You should have atleast a1-w2 by the time you see a fade, then shotguns will shread them to peices.
#6. Don't be arrogant.
You're the comm, not king of the map. Don't ignore your marines they offer good suggestions. If you respect your marines your marines will respect you. But then, don't let the marines push you around. You're not king of the map, but you're still the comm, and you're running this joint. Ignore Isamil screaming for a shotgun, and get a phasegate to devicenull in Sewer instead. Find the balance between the two, and you won't lose.
#7. Use that res!
Unless you're saving for a mass equipment suit-up for your marines, you should never have more than 40 res (the most expensive would be w3, a3, or protolab). If its sitting there, its not res, its garbage. Res ins't truely res until you use it.
#8. PHASE DAMNIT PHASE!
Phase gates are extremely crucial to winning. If you can't get there and reenfrorce your marines, then you've already lost.
#9 The observatory
This is one of the more useful tools that you'll be using the most. Ping areas where you hear some action going, gather intelligence, and that way you can make the best move. Marines getting slaughtered? bacon them back to base..no sense letting them die.
#10 WTF are you doing comm?!
Keep your marines informed! Don't just sit there quietly twiddling your thumbs. They have a hive going up in Eclipse? Tell them! Getting armor 2? Report it! You want them to get to that res node? Don't jsut give them a waypoint! Tell them exactly what you want, and exactly what you're doing, and exactly what you're planning to do. This will get thier priorities straight. This can mean the difference between "God damnit, don't knife that res node, i want a phase gate there...crap here comes the onos." and "Phase up, heavy train away!"
#11 "Okay, someone else comm now"
Never EVER get in the commchair unless you're planning to weld it shut with you inside. There are many people who think they're good marines when no one wants to comm by jumping in the chair, putting down two ips, an armory and a tf. THEN they get out, and say those terrifying words "Okay, who wants to comm?". Not every comm will go for your basic load out base. Heck i don't ever get a tf until later in the game. Some maps just scream "relocate!", and if you put even one building down, relocation is already dead: You've wasted res, you've wasted time, you've wasted the time of the marines who are currently buliding the structure. You get in the chair, you stay there.
#12 "Holy crap! i need a medpack!....comm?"
a VERY common mistake that happens often is that you have a skulk in base chomping down on your armory. Comm jumps out, gets killed, and now the skulk is free to camp the ips. NEVER jump out of the chair to kill something as a light marine. If you've got the res, drop yourself some equipment: heavy armor, hmg, or jetpack (if you get into the chair with a jetpack, the fuel tank starts empty when you jump out, so this isn't reccomended). As bad as it might look, if your team does not have someone in the chair, they can do absolutely nothing. Stay put in the chair, scream for someone to get to base, anything but get out of the chair unless you're toting some heavy-duty equipment.
#13 Commander: NSPlayer
NOTHING scares a marine more than NSPlayer in the chair. the LEAST you can do is change your name.
[Edit1] For accuracy of turrets [/Edit1]
[Edit2] added #11 - #13 [/edit2]
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Hehe, all good points, but you forgot the most important rule of comming! Always Win! :o
Perhaps armed with this new info, even I might try to comm sometime
(sorry in advance for the rines losing :p )
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Do it, Satia. Even Saltz probably blew the first time he jumped in the chair!
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Here's a tip, do not annoy/demoralize your marines until they want to ban you.
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Gotta disagree on the turret/tfac issue though. There's a time and place for them, I agree, but saying never have them early game? :p You forgetting the ever-popular "start of game hive lockdown"?
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(sorry in advance for the rines losing :p )
yes, my apologies as well. I usually avoid Comming unless we start with the 'no comm' startegy. And good tips with the arms lab... I always forget about those ar/wp upgrades. :rolleyes:
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#10 WTF are you doing comm?!
Keep your marines informed! Don't just sit there quietly twiddling your thumbs. They have a hive going up in Eclipse? Tell them! Getting armor 2? Report it! You want them to get to that res node? Don't jsut give them a waypoint! Tell them exactly what you want, and exactly what you're doing, and exactly what you're planning to do. This will get thier priorities straight. This can mean the difference between "God damnit, don't knife that res node, i want a phase gate there...crap here comes the onos." and "Phase up, heavy train away!"
I cannot agree with this more. I hate comms who just give you waypoints and do not communicate in any other way.
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Turrets don't change based on weapon upgrades...
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#2 I disagree. An electrified TFac in base is great early game
#7 When opportunity arrises, its nice to have 80+ res available to put up a siege base or shotty rush.
The others are fairly accurate, though.
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Gotta disagree on the turret/tfac issue though. There's a time and place for them, I agree, but saying never have them early game? You forgetting the ever-popular "start of game hive lockdown"?
fine. You win. But unless you're planning on building more than 4 turrets, thats going to be a fairly big hit on your economy.
Turrets don't change based on weapon upgrades...
I just confirmed this :/, my bad then. But imagine if they were :o~
#2 I disagree. An electrified TFac in base is great early game
#7 When opportunity arrises, its nice to have 80+ res available to put up a siege base or shotty rush.
Mines are far more effective than an electrified tfac. Say you've got a skulk rush to base - 5 or 6 skulks. the tfac can hit only 2 at a time, and if they rush the tf, it should be gone in no time, losing maximum 2 skulks. There goes your base defence. The only problem with mines is if you don't place them correctly, there are huge blindspots that skulks can crawl into. But thats something you can prevent; you can't make electrification hit more than two targets at a time.
As for #7...
Unless you're saving for a mass equipment suit-up for your marines , you should never have...
A mass equipment suit-up would include shotguns, sir :o.
As for a seige base, you're basically saying SAVE for 80 res in anticipation of a seige base. I'd rather use half for w3 or a3 and set up the seige base a little at a time. 40 res is plenty to get one going + phase.
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Oh, what do you think about electrifying res nodes?
I try to get people to put mines around them when they lay them down but they never listen! Never I say!
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Oh, what do you think about electrifying res nodes?
I try to get people to put mines around them when they lay them down but they never listen! Never I say!
This question was one i asked earlier, and was beautifully answered by Saltz
Lets assume for a moment you have the resnode Overlook on ns_veil captured at 1:30. Assuming you don't electrify it, and it holds for 3 minutes because this is the area your marines are generally walking past, you've netted something along the lines of 30 res from it.
Assuming you do electrify it, 4:30 or those 3 minutes is the moment you've netted ZERO res from it - 4:30 incidentially being the average time for a Fade to complete gestation. The time you're gaining res is the time it takes a Fade to decide to take it down - 1 minute is just about realistic. You'll net 12-15 res from that.
Theres the advantage to that, you've denied the Aliens putting up an RT in that spot - but unless its in a place that would put them at a serious disadvantage, like an alien-friendly node, they won't care. Theres a limit of about 4 RTs you can hold down against decent 'rines anyway - anything outside that is usually not even attempted until the ~8 minute mark at least.
Thats the upside. But the downside to electrification for protection is alot more drastic - it doesn't remove those 30 res you'd have at 4:30, it removes them at 1:30. Thats very, very, very bad in a game providing any challenge at all - those 30 res could be any upgrade, shotguns or an AA or any other item you need fast before Aliens get the chance to expand. Early electrification shoots itself in the foot - electrification only being useful against largely dominated alien teams to avoid comebacks, but hampering map-domination in itself.
So the main uses of Electrification that remain :
- Base defense, great for crowded spots
- Limiting the options of 1-Hive aliens
- Boosting TFs, especially important ones on the offense (and/or defending a TFs Sieges. Its decent for Sieging as it requires no building)
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all we need to do is teach marines that their life is only as important as the first thirty rounds in their clip
you do not need three-freaking-hundred rounds (plus fourty pistol shots and about ten spare knives) of ammunition to suicide-rush a hive
the one problem with marines: "rush hive" is interpreted as "relax ... grab some ammo. and get me a drink from the fridge while you're at it"
quick question: is it bad to draw up plans that abuse the fact that you have an infinite amount of inexpensive, expendible marines?
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Lito writes an excellent guide there. I believe it's not meant to make you an expert comm: Nothing short of tons of experience can do that. It's just meant to get you started. And while some of the more experienced comms out there may disagree with some specific points of the guide, overall it's good advice. This is no bible, it's a beginners guide. Once you know better, feel free to start experimenting. Heck, if you don't you'll never become a REALLY good comm. Hopefully this'll help some more people overcome their commophobia.
quick question: is it bad to draw up plans that abuse the fact that you have an infinite amount of inexpensive, expendible marines?
In your case it's roleplaying...
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nice guide lito. and yes some of us comms will take issue with some of the specific points, but over all, good on ya.
lemme add some owlie points
hoot 1 : always use the minimap, doubly so if you have MT
meece III : comm rage often, focussed, at one or two manure disturbers. get eveyrone in line. if you have a team of regs who work well and follow orders, then just CommZen out babay.
feathers b : try to give overall plans so marines can see the arc of your strategy "we'll hit coolant, equil, lockdown temp. siege out cargo."
pellet 9 : beacon to organize troops. this is a double edge sword, however, aliens will be alerted when you beacon.
owlet XXIII : sometimes it might be advantageous to spend initial rez on infratructure rather than upgrades.
g : try to have specific strategies for each map, and only comm maps you have a plan for/very familiar with.
section FuzzyWumpus 52a : if you have even RTs, and are not taking down THEIR rts, (and say, for fantasy sake they aren't touching yours) you WILL lose.
subparagraph k, XIV : hot key your armslab and obs, making pinging, beacon and checking upgrades quick and easy.
addendum Xargos Specca Parsec Nine : be confident and cool (unless using commrage) in the chair. if you can't inspire your rines to be aggresive, and have high morale, at least DO NOT BRING IT DOWN.
appendix J : be aware of the upgrade chambers, and counter them quickly.
er, that's all i can think of atm.
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#5. Rush crucial upgrades.
Your marines arn't going to kill Holy_Devil out there with your puny level 1 lmg, and lvl 0 armor. w1 and a1 is a MUST in the beginning, some comms like mt in the beginning too. All three of these upgrades can mean the difference between "OMG GUYS YOU SUCK, IT WAS JUST 1 SKULK" and "NSPlayer (LMG) Holy_Devil". And if you can't make a decision on where to spend res, always spend on upgrades. Electrifying that node is no where near as useful as w2. Also, keep the upgrades coming, even if you're a bit short on res. If you don't keep up with the times, your upgrades will not be able to catch up with what the marines are going up against, and sooner or later, you're going to have two fades on your marines and you only have a1. You should have atleast a1-w2 by the time you see a fade, then shotguns will shread them to peices.
Get Armor 2 before Weapons 1.
With the Marine armor changes in 3.0, Armor 1 is still barely enough to keep your Marines alive. If you rush the Arms Lab, getting your Marines to Armor 2 early can make them a lot harder to kill.
An Armor 2 / MT combo is even more effective. If you know where they're coming from, you should barely miss a shot, further negating the need for weapons upgrades early on in the game. Doesn't mean you should skip out entirely on Weapons upgrades though, I just find a high Armor level to help a lot more in dealing with level 0/1 Skulks.
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very good com info from the both of you
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Get Armor 2 before Weapons 1.
just a quick note for those of you who don't know. a2 will get you four bites from a skulk.
interesting idea about going a2 with MT.
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Lito writes an excellent guide there. I believe it's not meant to make you an expert comm: Nothing short of tons of experience can do that. It's just meant to get you started. And while some of the more experienced comms out there may disagree with some specific points of the guide, overall it's good advice. This is no bible, it's a beginners guide. Once you know better, feel free to start experimenting. Heck, if you don't you'll never become a REALLY good comm. Hopefully this'll help some more people overcome their commophobia.
You got it, lolfighter.
Its like math. What i'm posting here is basic addition that everyone should know. Its up to you to build on this so you can do discrete mathematics and calculus.
Get Armor 2 before Weapons 1.
i like the idea of 4 bites, but i don't like the idea of no weapon upgrades...what do you think of a1,w1,a2? USually i go a1,w1,w2,w3,a2,a3, but i see the consequences of that...its really hard on the marine in endgame.
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i'm personally a fan of a1,w1,w2,a2,w3,a3
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If I'm reading this right, a2 is more powerful than it was in 2.0 yes? So wouldn't that at least give us reason to reconsider the standard of a1w123a23 ? I always thought a2 was still 3 skulk bites, but I guess I haven't been paying attention. I think an a1w1a2w23a3* may be in order.
*BINGO!!!
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I know its a clan match, but I think this is a decent demo to teach the basics.
http://www.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=307 (http://www.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=307)
Many comms make the fatal mistake of not pressuring. This is a side effect of building turrets everywhere, turtling, etc.
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Oh yeah, all new comms should do a 2 Hive lockdown with leet marines... ;)
On that note, 5 bucks says eR won the marine round on eclipse as well.
Edit : And although it doesn't involve turrets, technically that was a very low-pressure strat that just locked down very easy areas with good players until you were overteched out the wazoo.
Kudos though, that made me never want to play alien on eclipse again - and I thought just maintenance hive was bad. Seems pretty much every hive in EC is utter ^^ - CC with the golden siegespot (2 RTs, most teams DCs), maintenance without any exits you'll survive taking and the Eclipse hive, victim of the 2 other hives easy deniability (although, CC hive can go up reasonably - just if its your starting hive, you're down an RT already).
And why does a leet team like eR do vent DCs? Do they never learn?
Edit 2 (For Bob):
If the opposing team really doesn't field fades yet, A1-A2 works excellently. If you're LMGing and/or encountering largely Skulks, W1 is totally ineffective - it doesn't change anything about Skulk vs LMG encounters.
But I've found usually you're at the 2-ish minute mark with a1 and want w1/2 for when Fades come around (4:30 - they're gestating around 3:30-4:00), just for the extra hand - and thats whay A1 and then weapons ups is still attractive.
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dang well with all these tips from you guys if and when i get a mic that works i may try to com again o_O
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On that note, 5 bucks says eR won the marine round on eclipse as well.
You owe me five bucks.
And although it doesn't involve turrets, technically that was a very low-pressure strat that just locked down very easy areas with good players until you were overteched out the wazoo.
But when you watch this demo, keep in mind of the 80 ping difference. This made it extremely hard to attack, and even harder to try to pressure their hive with no higher tech.
Oh yeah, all new comms should do a 2 Hive lockdown with leet marines...
How exactly is that a two hive lockdown? We only had a PG up to maintenance once, and they destroyed that pretty quickly. No kind of static defense whatsoever.
And why does a leet team like eR do vent DCs? Do they never learn?
Those DCs almost broke us twice.... What exactly are the disadvantages of putting your DCs there? Seeing as only in the end we came near their hive, it would have been pretty useless if they just stuck them up under the hive.
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The disadvantages is that annoying siege spot that reaches through all the DC locations in the vent and depending on how you build SAA together with the PS3 and CC node - the siege spot doesn't reach the hive, but thats secondary. Either way, seeing as how retaining that 40res is often more interesting than getting the rather mild advantage of a heal-zone and that the DCs went down early in the match, it must have set them back a good bit - the same Gorge that putup the new DCs could have been another Fade or a 2nd Hive.
The next disadvantage is that getting one shotgunner into the vents can be done fairly fast (afaik it takes one guy to boost someone into there from the PS3/SAA area). Nice if you don't want to siege from behind CC because you already cleared everything out.
As for the 2 Hive lockdown, the role your marines filled during almost the entire match was to use the countless gorgeously good defensive positions Eclipse offers to lock essentially lock down CC via phase (the phase was up most of the match if I remember right, although not without rebuilding) and in turn have a pretty strong grip on maintenance hive - via southloop mostly. The match consisted entirely of holding that, and the nice 6 RTs the position came with until you were teched.
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Hmm, well, I tried comming for the 3rd time in my life (first was a long time ago and I only did it once because I sucked, second was a few days ago and that led to a 5 minute game <_< )
I guess a 45 minute game with 3 hive deaths isn't bad... Although I hadn't originally intended to comm the game. There were 4 people in LM and ElectricSheep and I were rines. He refused to comm because he hates comming small games, so I hoped in. It was a few minutes in when Crack joined, so I figured "hey, another rine, that's good". Before I knew it, we had a full server, and I was in comm. I was just trying to keep up with everything happening :blink:
I'd spam HAs and Shotties, and then led them to kill a hive, either SG or siege. Worked 3 times, but the aliens kept building it back :angry: . sooo... yeah, basically they eventually took out all my RTs and slayed my base... *sigh*
But at least 45 minutes of holding off the aliens is better than 5 minutes, right?
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I guess a 45 minute game with 3 hive deaths isn't bad... Although I hadn't originally intended to comm the game. There were 4 people in LM and ElectricSheep and I were rines. He refused to comm because he hates comming small games, so I hoped in. It was a few minutes in when Crack joined, so I figured "hey, another rine, that's good". Before I knew it, we had a full server, and I was in comm. I was just trying to keep up with everything happening :blink:
I'd spam HAs and Shotties, and then led them to kill a hive, either SG or siege. Worked 3 times, but the aliens kept building it back :angry: . sooo... yeah, basically they eventually took out all my RTs and slayed my base... *sigh*
But at least 45 minutes of holding off the aliens is better than 5 minutes, right?
good on ya sati! :) small games that go big are the nastiest, imho. they have very weird dynamics.
good work stayin in the chair for 45 minutes, maybe you see where commrage comes from eh?
oh, and congrats on comming the rines,and not just staring at your reflection in the command console :p
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oh, and congrats on comming the rines,and not just staring at your reflection in the command console :p
I must admit, that panel on the side had a mightily handsome reflection in it, I was tempted to forget about comming and just gaze into the control panel <3
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Well, I was playing late Friday night (or was it saturday morning), and I decided to get catpacks instead fo W3. And you know, I think I like it better. It has a higher long term cost, but it's extremely effective with hives and higher lifeforms.. Any opinions?
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It doesn't help all that much with hives unless you're LMG rushing them, but yeah Cats help with Lifeforms especially. Depending on how much res I can expect to have I'll research them before W2 - with a reasonable income, catpack rushes go alot further than a 10% damage upgrade (plus, Cats are researched fast - you can get back to W2 in no time).