Overly Chatty Penguins
The Ready Room => General => Topic started by: Lightning Blue on March 18, 2004, 02:15:11 PM
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Discussion continued from IRC.
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a public server can have varying degrees of skill. having a tactic like spawncamping allowed on a public server will make a team with one or two uber players, win the game for the rines. whereas if spawncamping ism't allowed, more strategy and teamplay will come into the formula. leading to a greater range of the player base having fun. as opposed to 2 elite clanners.
it's MORE likely that one team will have elite players than both, simple due to the scarcity of elite players (kind of part of the definition, really). now ina scrim, ti's fine, there is enough organization, and, hopefully, fairly close skills levels for spawncamping to not have a negative effect.
the the fact remains that on a server that can have HUGE ranges in skill, using a tactic that MAGNIFIES skill over strategy will lead to a great number of the public players to become dissatisfied with the gameplay.
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Well, I believe unjust spawncamping should be racking up kills even though the ability to kill the objective presents itself.
I don't have much more to add to the discussion on IRC, but spawncamping doesn't give an unfair tactical advantage. It is just sucks for the aliens. But it is not impossible to defeat, unlike IP spawncamping.
However in 1.0 spawncamping WAS overpowered, since skulks were much weaker, and OCs were more expensive and ineffective. The devs believed that hive umbra was a way to make things even, however in 2.0-3.0 with the skulk HP being boosted and the hitboxes being reduced, spawncamping is much less of a problem and much easier to counter and prevent.
As it now stands, the advantages to spawncamping aren't that great compared with the difficulty it is to advance in the hive. One OC can prevent spawncamping, and DCs which would be placed in the hive anyways also can cut down on potential spawncamping.
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a public server can have varying degrees of skill. having a tactic like spawncamping allowed on a public server will make a team with one or two uber players, win the game for the rines. whereas if spawncamping ism't allowed, more strategy and teamplay will come into the formula. leading to a greater range of the player base having fun. as opposed to 2 elite clanners.
it's MORE likely that one team will have elite players than both, simple due to the scarcity of elite players (kind of part of the definition, really). now ina scrim, ti's fine, there is enough organization, and, hopefully, fairly close skills levels for spawncamping to not have a negative effect.
the the fact remains that on a server that can have HUGE ranges in skill, using a tactic that MAGNIFIES skill over strategy will lead to a great number of the public players to become dissatisfied with the gameplay.
It doesn't take an elite player to combat spawncamping. It either requires a little forethought or quick thinking on the skulks side. Don't necessarily try to attack the marine, just run down his ammo for the next skulk to spawn. Its not that hard depending on how close or far you spawn from the marine.
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It doesn't take an elite player to combat spawncamping. It either requires a little forethought or quick thinking on the skulks side. Don't necessarily try to attack the marine, just run down his ammo for the next skulk to spawn. Its not that hard depending on how close or far you spawn from the marine.
coming from an elite player, this explaination has little credence. the majority of pubbers will just die trying to kill the spawncamper, over, and over, and over again. fun? no. effective? yes. make pubbers not come back to LM? probably.
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OK then, drop an OC.
Doesn't take much eliteness to do that.
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Or just don't do it.
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Well, I believe unjust spawncamping should be racking up kills even though the ability to kill the objective presents itself.
I don't have much more to add to the discussion on IRC, but spawncamping doesn't give an unfair tactical advantage. It is just sucks for the aliens. But it is not impossible to defeat, unlike IP spawncamping.
However in 1.0 spawncamping WAS overpowered, since skulks were much weaker, and OCs were more expensive and ineffective. The devs believed that hive umbra was a way to make things even, however in 2.0-3.0 with the skulk HP being boosted and the hitboxes being reduced, spawncamping is much less of a problem and much easier to counter and prevent.
As it now stands, the advantages to spawncamping aren't that great compared with the difficulty it is to advance in the hive. One OC can prevent spawncamping, and DCs which would be placed in the hive anyways also can cut down on potential spawncamping.
Agreed on all points. but however, keep in mind that we want to keep this server fun. It's not fun spending 7 minutes in digestion. (GG being devoured 14 times :p) It's not fun to spawn and get killed before you can even tell what HIVE you're in by some lamer sitting in there with a shotgun.
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OK then, drop an OC.
Doesn't take much eliteness to do that.
you'd have to be pretty elite to evolve to gorge, drop an OC, and build it to completion before the spawncamping marine killed you :p
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Spawncamping is bad.
if the marines manage to take out all of the aliens, and start killing things when they spawn, HOPEFULLY they'll be attacking that hive. if someone just runs down and starts killing things in the hive, more likley than not some a skulk will spawn and take him down when he's low on ammo. however, if marines are sitting in the hive for too long it would be delaying the game(simmilar to a hiding Marine or alien with DCs) and they should have some sort of punishment.
Aliens are a little worse to me. I've been in a few games where the onos goes in and takes out everything but the IP, letting the marines spawn and killing them over and over. Same thing: bad.
If you're in the enemy base, kill them. Don't sit and let their base live. v_v
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ShootBang, I think it is agreed by everyone here that that kind of spawncamping should not be done. The question here is whether one should be allowed to spawncamp when one is not able to destroy the source of the spawning.
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i classify Spawncamping as this: 1 and up marines sitting in a hive with a shotgun,hmg, etc shooting a "res tower" or chamber with 1 bullet and waiting for skulks to spawn. antoehr one could be defined as "Onos sitting by an ip waiting to devour a marine" <----this i don't classify as spawn camping if the team is killing the buildings, he/she is only taking 1 more marine off the teams back to deal with. also adds the end game "U spawn = pwnt" feel whenever marines do a HA/SG rush into a hive.
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Marines
spawncamping is often justified by "hive pressure"
Situation 1: 3 marines spread themselves out in an active hive room. No chambers
1 gives the hive a couple shots with a pistol, and once they hear that "plop" of a spawn, everyone whips around shoots the skulk. Wash, rise, repeat.
Judgement: BS
giving the hive a few shots is merely a taunt...and to make your justification more credible to admins. You want to pressure the hive? empty your lmg into it. Spawncamping
Situation 2: 3 marines spread themselves out in an active hive with no chambers
one begins to shoot the hive, emptying clip after clip of lmg and pistol, then finally switching to knife and jumping franctically up and down getting a few slashes in.
Plop! skulk ahoy! the remaining pair of marines gun down the skulk.
Judgement: BS
Two marines on respawn defence is prioritizing the death of whatever respawns over the damaging of the hive. Spawncamping.
Situation 3: 3 marines..yada yada yada.
TWO shoot the hive, emptying everything, one kills anything that respawns.
Judgement: Hive pressure.
Having two marines hitting the hive means that you've prioritized hive damage over frags. Hive pressure.
Aliens
Situation 1: a lone skulk sneaks behind the line and starts biting on the ip a bit to taunt the commander out. Commander gets out, and gets killed. skulk chomps away at the ip, stopping after a few seconds to regain energy and ready him or herself for a spawning marine.
Judgement: Not spawn camping
for obvious reasons. The skulk is eating away at the main objective and being smart about it by stopping when he or she predicts a marine will spawn in.
Situation 1 alt: The same skulk DOESN'T bite the ips, and just kills whatever respawns
Judgement: spawn camping.
There is a sizable delay between spawns. you may use that time to bite the ip a bit (not one or two bites, be sensible)
Situation 2: marine base is zerg rushed (kekekeke ^____^), 2 skulks camp the ip while the rest bite away at the base.
Judgement: not spawn camping.
an early zerg rush has two meanings: End the game very early, or, if the zerg rush is beaten down, to damage the base as much as possible. Damaging the base cripples the marines of a smooth game start, and will take longer for them to recouperate (ie, rebuild base, wait for res to rebuild base). The base damaging takes first priority, obviously, because if your rush isn't going to work, might as well slow them down as much as possible.
Situation 3: Onos sits in front of an ip eating/goring/stomping whatever comes out. Doesn't touch the base
Judgement: spawncamping. An onos is perfectly capable of taking fire from one or two marines while wreaking havoc in thier base.
Situation 3 alt: onos sits in front of an ip eating/goring/stomping whatever comes out while his team takes care of the base.
Judgement: Teamwork.
situation 3 alt alt: onos sits in front of an ip eating/goring/stomping whatever comes out even after his team has the base down
Judgement: spawn camping.
Unnessicary as the team isn't busy with something else, the onos may take down the ip and the whole team can take care of whatever spawns in.
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ShootBang, I think it is agreed by everyone here that that kind of spawncamping should not be done. The question here is whether one should be allowed to spawncamp when one is not able to destroy the source of the spawning.
That's like spawncamping in BF1942 around the uncapturable bases.
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It doesn't take a really good player to spawncamp. It is incredibly easy to do when skulks don't have leap. I've seen it happen many times, and I, for one, consider it an exploit that unbalances the game. Call it a tactic, call it whatever, it is still way too easy to do.
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Meh, its not like its not normally a part of the game to keep your Hive room/IPs clear. So by and large, we have to admit that those spawnpoints belong in the game and anything can be done around them the same as in any other part of the map. And thats crucial : Same as in any other part of the map, not racking up kills for the sake of it.
And those kinds of things, like shooting spawning aliens, building TFs in their Hives to suppress Skulks, mining the area up or any combination thereof should be completely legal. Otherwise we're just removing possible tactics and often necessary measures just based on someones perception of what might or might not be spawncamping.
Generally, any action that is exclusively causing grief for no reason (ie someone that each game runs off and spawncamps or something) should be bannable - directly altering gameplay because one thing tends to be more enraging than another, no thanks.
And uh, Niteowl - its usually the extremely non-leet that feel the need to spawncamp alot and help those stats along :)
@LB:
Meh, I've done what Keyser said - run the guy out of LMG bullets or just frustrate him til another guy spawns. 3DCs+Hive Heal and use the Hive for cover (he'll probably try to avoid hitting it), and its an easy win for the Skulks. Sure, its easy to do the first time they spawn, but after that the 'rine should be toast.
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[snip] 2 elite players
I'm not elite, and I spawncamp simple becuase it aids in winning, and becuase I find shooting fish in a barrel fun, and I play NS to have fun. esp in combat, tying people up in the spawn que gives your *teamates* [ns is team based isn't it] more chance to chew the chair, and you can level up faster which makes for more upgrades sooner, which gives you a leg up on the other people.
if the NS is being ruined by spawncamping, or isn't wanted to be a valid tactic, then the dev team would address that, and until they frown upon it spawncamping will be viewed as a perfectly valid tactic, even though it does suck to get spawncamped, it's part of playing the game.
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however leaving the hive alive, or the ip's alive just to get kills is for effing llama's
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Lito you forgot one.
2 marines are in the hive while the rest of the team caps RTs and such. If they shoot the hive with more than a few bullets, than the next spawner will easily kill the marine. Also eventually they will run out of ammo, and their team will have accomplished less than if they conserved their ammo for spawning skulks.
Spawncamping? Yes. Unjust spawncamping? No.
If I was a marine pressuring the hive, why would I want to accomplish less? Its definetly not frag whoring, because wile I keep the aliens contained, my teammates cap RTs and secure our way to victory.
In such a case where victory is already established, and the opportunity to kill the hive presents itself, then spawncamping becomes unjust.
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early game:
a simple oc will take out squads of unupgraded marines
mid game:
no fades at their base? no upgrades? no skulks and lerks flying about?
late game:
you hear that? *thump* *thump* *thump*
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I don't mind spawncamping as long as they kill the hive!
Getting owned by 1 gosu player over and over again waiting till the enemy has all rt's is NOT fun.
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Lito you forgot one.
2 marines are in the hive while the rest of the team caps RTs and such. If they shoot the hive with more than a few bullets, than the next spawner will easily kill the marine. Also eventually they will run out of ammo, and their team will have accomplished less than if they conserved their ammo for spawning skulks.
Spawncamping? Yes. Unjust spawncamping? No.
If I was a marine pressuring the hive, why would I want to accomplish less? Its definetly not frag whoring, because wile I keep the aliens contained, my teammates cap RTs and secure our way to victory.
In such a case where victory is already established, and the opportunity to kill the hive presents itself, then spawncamping becomes unjust.
In which case I'm allowed to use my wallhacks and such, because who cares about anyone else, it's only whether I win or not that matters. After all, I don't hear MY team complaining.
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That's first-class hairsplitting. If that's how we play, I'm banning teams that try to cap every node from the bat, because they make the game unfun for the other team.
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That's first-class hairsplitting. If that's how we play, I'm banning teams that try to cap every node from the bat, because they make the game unfun for the other team.
:lol:
It's all a matter of the situation - what seems a leet, legitimate tactic to one team can quickly turn into a sort of generl malaise that destroys the fun of the game. it's hard to put one's finger on what makes this difference, but we've all been in both situations (where the spawncamping is done correctly and respectfully and when it just turns into a "mill around in your chair want-to-give-your-monitor-a-lead-sammich" type of scenario).
In my opinion, it should be left up to whatever the situation provides - trying to "ban" spawncamping is such an iffy motive, on account of the fact that people will always find some wy to make it seem legitimate. So my advice would to be, as LF said, stop splitting hairs and leave the legislation up to the situation.
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The only argument I can think of AGAINST spawnkilling is that it is unfun. Yes, being killed as soon as you spawn sucks, but guess whos fault it is that the marines were able to get in that position. Just like its the marines fault if the aliens rush the IPs.
There are other aspects of the game that aren't fun either though. Getting devoured isn't fun, getting sieged isn't fun, but they're all part of the game.
We just need to accept NS how it is and we can't start making up arbitrary rules. Else we'll get something like TFC where you can get banned on some servers for things like "chasing" and playing certain classes.
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[...]Else we'll get something like TFC where you can get banned on some servers for things like "chasing" and playing certain classes.
Now I'm curious. Always a sucker for everything that's completely bizarre and insane you see. I'd love a detailed explanation.
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HD and I were talking about how we don't think that Lerk Gazing the IPs is in any way spawn camping, some ppl though different.
our point was, Lerk Gaz can't kill you in less time than it takes to get off the IP.
Spawn camping in a hive is generaly unfair. A base level Skulk is the same power it was 1 min after start as it is at 3 hives. When marines with level 3 weps and HMGs are camping the hive and not all shooting it, every spawning Skulk is toast (Burnt Toast).
Same goes for IP fades, who will sit and wait just for the marine to spawn.
Also for my final Note! Being Digested 14 times in a day isnt fun! :huh:
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[...]Else we'll get something like TFC where you can get banned on some servers for things like "chasing" and playing certain classes.
Now I'm curious. Always a sucker for everything that's completely bizarre and insane you see. I'd love a detailed explanation.
in tfc abusing snipers, heavy weaps, spy (to some extent) scout and medic can be bannable.
snipers: sniping
heavy weaps: shooting
spy: sneaking and making teh stealth keel!
scout: conc-jumping, whatever you call those spike-things
medic: conc-jumping, poison
edit: forgot demoman
demoman: making explosions, getting lucky detpack kills, getting lucky pipebomb kills, evil traps involving running and remote-detonateable pipebombs, filling medeum sized rooms with multiple explosives (mirv+frag grenades, pipe bombs, detpack) ... yeah, making explosions that kill. it's a bloody demolitions man!
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in tfc abusing snipers, heavy weaps, spy (to some extent) scout and medic can be bannable.
snipers: sniping
heavy weaps: shooting
spy: sneaking and making teh stealth keel!
scout: conc-jumping, whatever you call those spike-things
medic: conc-jumping, poison
edit: forgot demoman
demoman: making explosions, getting lucky detpack kills, getting lucky pipebomb kills, evil traps involving running and remote-detonateable pipebombs, filling medeum sized rooms with multiple explosives (mirv+frag grenades, pipe bombs, detpack) ... yeah, making explosions that kill. it's a bloody demolitions man!
All that could be shortened to "working with what you have". So playing anything but a soldier is bannable?
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I think thats pretty much what the message is
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Back on topic, IMO it's not spawncamping to shoot/kill players while you're attacking something.
For example, if you're attacking the hive, killing skulks as they spawn isn't spawn camping, it's neccessary (Otherwise, they kind of kill you...). Or if you're attacking the CC in combat, you need to kill the marines as they spawn, otherwise you can never chomp on the CC.
Spawncamping is (IMO) when a player is JUST killing spawning players without the goal of attacking something else.
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Keyser explains it best
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So Lucid and keyser are saying "Its your ownt fault if you let youself get spawncamped, and that its ok in that situation "
(silly guzpaz ^^)
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Not sure who the "you" is, but no, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that you MUST kill enemies as they spawn if you are attacking a target in their spawn. It's the way the game is designed. In DoD there is no excuse, there aren't game-critical structures placed IN the spawns. In NS (alien side used as example), you have RTs, OCs, DCs, and let's not forget the hive, all right in the middle of the team spawns. You can't hit those structures without firing at the enemy.
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Simple, really. When marines get to the point of spawncamping a hive, they win. (If they're good at it.) That's an endgame situation. If I get into a hive room and realize most of the aliens are dead, I get on voice comm and have every soldier on the team rush that hive, because we are going to win. Comm drops an armory, mines, and shotguns, the mines and LMGers take care of respawning skulks, the shotguns finish off the hive. Game over. We make it as painless as possible. (hopefully) ..I have been in situations where all the comm did was drop endless packs of mines and it basically amounted to mine-based spawncamping since we knew exactly where the spawn locations were.. :(
Of course, when we get to the ready room after the former (painless) type of game, people say how we are jerks, homosexuals, cheap, etc. Rather unpleasant language! The reality is that the aliens played a bad game, did not make use of their scouting or mobility potential, didn't defend their hive room. Try telling me that if 6 skulks are in your base and you have no mines, turrets, or electrified strucutres, that you're likely to survive. No. That's also a game over, and it's not a fun one. Camping an IP is 20 times easier than camping a hive room, because you know EXACTLY where and when the marines will appear. No admin has ever complained about a game that the aliens won by camping an IP and eventually killing it.
Camping a hive room, which is HARDER and requires more res and teamwork and aim, is an unfair strategy for ending the game, though.
I do understand the point some of you raised; That we are trying to keep this server fun for all players of all skill levels, but you have to realize. Marines who can shoot well who are in a hive room are GOING to kill enemies that respawn. It would be foolish and retarded not to. You admins yelling "STOP SPAWNCAMPING" are effectively yelling "LET US KILL YOU OR I WILL BAN YOU".
I've been teamslayed by an admin here before when I was one of 2 marines in a hive room, we were using more than 50% of our shotgun ammo on killing the last hive and yet we were still spawncamping. Barely surviving, at that. I think it was amazing we had survived at all, given that there were several OCs and skulks in the room when we arrived, but we lived, cleared it out, and proceeded to start killing the hive. Then...we got slayed. Oh well.
Spawncamping is a very annoying tactic. It makes people angry at the moment it's happening, and if those people are admins, they lash out because they are frustrated and it's against the rules.
Just remember. Sometimes a marine's only alternative to "spawn camping" is voluntarily dying because he CHOOSES not to shoot the aliens. It is VERY VERY HARD to take down an active hive with LMGs.
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Tyr is raising some good points. Spawncamping is only really an issue when it comes to hives, with IPs it's clear: You chomp the IP, then chomp the player when he spawns, then resume chomping the IP once you've killed him. If you just stand by the IP, waiting for a rine to spawn (or giving it a token bite between rines), you're camping with the purpose of whoring your stats or annoying the rines (okay, it nets you rfk which could be seen as a valid excuse, but if you can take down the IP, you don't need res. So you're kinda reswhoring as well: "No, I don't wanna end the game, I want to go Onos and rape them for a while first! Yay devourcamping!"). And it's not very aggravating, as the marine who is suffering from the spawncamping only gets killed a few times before the IP is dead and the game ends. Add to that multiple IPs, giving the marine a chance against less skilled aliens (the better ones will just alternate between IPs) and the spawncamping has a good chance of being stopped "from the inside", that is without a marine having to return from the field to deal with the problem. If a marine dies in the field (such things happen I hear), there's two rines in the queue now - with two or three IPs to spawn from simultaneously, a skulk doesn't stand a chance.
A hive is so much easier to spawncamp, and much more aggravating: Aliens spawn in a random spot, and usually a good distance away from the camper. And a single hive never spawns more than one player at a time, making it relatively easy for even a single player with good aim to control the flow. If the comm supplies him with ammo and health, he can stay alive for quite a while. The chances of the aliens ending the camping "from within" are markedly lower. And if they can't, the hive dies. Very slowly I might add. Spawn - die - repeat gets old really fast as we all know.
That's why this problem is such a, well, problem. On one hand, we don't want to take away any more strategies than we need to. And spawncamping does not break any of the rules set by the game. You're not exploiting or hacking if you spawncamp, you're just making use of a vulnerability built into the game. And nobody would dare criticise spawncamping in a competition game. But were not solely playing to win here - we're playing to have fun. And anyone will admit that being on the receiving end of spawncamping is not fun. So we forbid spawncamping.
I've tried to be lenient when punishing spawncamping - preferring warnings and cease-and-desist orders to actual punishments. And if we can think of a rule that allows spawncamping to a certain extent while reducing the tedium and boredom involved with it - a rule that is easy to enforce, without lots of loopholes that allow evil people to spawncamp incessantly and still claim to have been within the rules - I'll gladly give my support to it. But until then, until we can find such a crystal-clear rule, the rule is:
No spawncamping. If you want to win, kill the hive. If you have doubts whether you're spawncamping, cease and desist. If an admin tells you that you're spawncamping, you're spawncamping - stop it.
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Camping a hive room, which is HARDER and requires more res and teamwork and aim, is an unfair strategy for ending the game, though.
Since a single hive may spawn one skulk at a time and within a tight radius of the hive, it is actually very easy to camp a hive. Not as easy as an ip, but much easier than what you're leading on to.
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It's especially easy to camp a hive that has a relatively wide open area and a good distance from the hive, such as in Waste Handling hive on ns_tanith.
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What I see much more often is spawncamping right next to the hive. A marine or two will post up in a hallway with a nice straight shot into the spawn area and just sit and wait. The aliens know he's there, so they keep trying to go deal with him. You can't just let a marine sit outside the hive, or the whole team will be there in 20 seconds and be siegeing in a minute and a half. As the skulks spawn, they run at the marine, get shot, repeat. Ugh. This is clear camping. Most often they're not even in line of sight to the hive, so there's no way they could be attacking it.
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Camping a hive room, which is HARDER and requires more res and teamwork and aim, is an unfair strategy for ending the game, though.
Since a single hive may spawn one skulk at a time and within a tight radius of the hive, it is actually very easy to camp a hive. Not as easy as an ip, but much easier than what you're leading on to.
slightly OT here, but WHO CHANGED YER TITLE?!?!
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What I see much more often is spawncamping right next to the hive. A marine or two will post up in a hallway with a nice straight shot into the spawn area and just sit and wait. The aliens know he's there, so they keep trying to go deal with him. You can't just let a marine sit outside the hive, or the whole team will be there in 20 seconds and be siegeing in a minute and a half. As the skulks spawn, they run at the marine, get shot, repeat. Ugh. This is clear camping. Most often they're not even in line of sight to the hive, so there's no way they could be attacking it.
One of the characteristic features of spawncamping is the supposed inability of its victims to do anything before being killed. This, according to the previous responses to this thread, leads to boredom and is the primary reason for the prohibition of spawncamping.
The camping you describe, on the other hand, does not share this feature. Whereas victims of spawncamping are said to have few options open to them, the victims in your scenario clearly have many. Because of this, I see little reason to forbid that form of camping.
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It's a tight call, but what comes to mind is a game from last weekend. Several vets stacked on one team. Map was ns_caged. Hive was sewer. Vets run to hive and post up just on either side of the exits. Wait for skulks to come bounding at them. 2-3 lmgs vs 1 hive skulks and no other exits. While on some hives, this isn't such a problem, in this case it was clear spawncamping. The skulks simply had no chance, and the numbers of marines who were doing NOTHING but waiting for the next skulk was bad. There was plenty of time to siege, set up a phase and shotgun rush, anything. But they were just sitting in the pipes and shooting.
So if it's one guy in one hall. Sure, go around and eat him from behind while your friend distracts him. But a few, in a hive with choke exits = spawncamp in my book.
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By some of the definitions I've heard here, any kind of offensive action against the alien or marine base is spawncamping. Should we then never attack the hive/marine start, and allow games to go on forever?
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It's a tight call, but what comes to mind is a game from last weekend. Several vets stacked on one team. Map was ns_caged. Hive was sewer. Vets run to hive and post up just on either side of the exits. Wait for skulks to come bounding at them. 2-3 lmgs vs 1 hive skulks and no other exits. While on some hives, this isn't such a problem, in this case it was clear spawncamping. The skulks simply had no chance, and the numbers of marines who were doing NOTHING but waiting for the next skulk was bad. There was plenty of time to siege, set up a phase and shotgun rush, anything. But they were just sitting in the pipes and shooting.
So if it's one guy in one hall. Sure, go around and eat him from behind while your friend distracts him. But a few, in a hive with choke exits = spawncamp in my book.
That scenario differs significantly from your original one. Nevertheless, while that is certainly pointless prolongation of the game, to regard it as spawncamping is stretching the definition quite a bit. It is pointless prolongation of the game; nothing more. Prohibit that, if you will; personally I think a far better solution is to simply allow the use of autocondede.
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Again, allowing the use of autoconcede lowers the quality of many games, as seperating early auto-conceding from just ones (when it was REALLY pointless), is hard. It makes alot more sense to put the burden on the winners, to win with style and speed.
Hence why allowing strong offense is good - rather have a fast win in 2 minutes with a TFac, a set of mines and god knows what right on their spawn as we tear the hive apart, than a slow one involving 20 minutes of over-techage vs owned aliens.
Plus, in bobs example simple teamplay would have helped. Wait for everyone to spawn, run out. The problem is aliens don't naturally have a comm, but they definitely need to work together just as much.
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Ya know what would make me feel a lot less bad about 'spawncamping'... is if the commander couldn't hear which hive the aliens have at the start of the game.
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Again, allowing the use of autoconcede lowers the quality of many games, as seperating early auto-conceding from just ones (when it was REALLY pointless), is hard. It makes alot more sense to put the burden on the winners, to win with style and speed.
I do not consider premature autoconceding to be a significant problem, as in my experience it is a very rare occurrence. I have been playing regularly for about a year on a server that allows the use of autoconcede, and from all that time I can recollect only one instance of a team conceding prematurely.
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Single members of a team on the otherhand are more likely to. At least when listening to alien voice comm I get the feeling that at the 4minute mark they'd like to all f4 :p
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Precisely, Saltz. And that's the reasoning. It's much much easier to draw the line at no f4ing than to try and work with it on a case by case basis. I personally don't want to argue with every random pubber who says 'they took double res, WE LOSE' three minutes into the game... So simply saying absolutely no f4ing keeps people in. If they think it's that terrible, they're free to just leave the game.
Believe you me, we admins have more than enough to watch out for without having to take things like f4ing on a case by case basis.
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Cofr, civilian?
One example of good conceding is, in fact, Cofr. Mostly regulars often do f4, clearly showing the victory of the other team without the painless waiting around. True, there could be cases when people f4 prematurely, but considering the high number of regulars and the 4 player difference needed to concede, it's unlikely it will be abused.
As far as spawn camping goes, it's only spawn camping when the marines can clearly walk in/siege and win and choose not to. Two marines early in game with no upgrades are keeping aliens in base, not camping. A group of marines with full upgrades against aliens with one hive mining it is spawncamping.
Aliens are different. Unless you have several aliens in the marine base, spawn camping is needed. Killing an updating armory or an arms lab would do more damage than killing an ip with one guy dead. If there are several onos sitting around the ip waiting for the next guy to devour him, then yes, it's spawncamping.
It should certainly be on the case to case basis along with premature f4ing.
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Think of it as trying to maintain the greatest amount of fun for the greatest number of players. I'm not saying spawncamping isn't a perfectly valid tactic. I'm saying it's not any FUN for the camped team. We're not playing serious competative games here. The only thing that happens when one team wins is that the map changes. We're all here to have a good time. Getting killed every time you spawn or being pinned down to one small area by players who seem to think that the point of the game is to get the most kills is not fun.
Alternatively, preparing for your final rush on the enemy's last base and then watching them all go back to the ready room is also not fun. Don't think competatively here, because this isn't a competition. We're just here to have a good time.
Yes, sometimes it's not much fun to fight when the ending seems inevitable, but don't deny the other team the momentary enjoyment of victory just because you're unhappy with it. The map will change and you get to start all over again. I think of it as a sort of a gentleman's agreement.
And again, these things aren't going to be taken on a case by case basis. We have a finite number of admins and, believe it or not, some of us actually just like to play the game and not be interrupted to argue with people over whether or not they are spawncamping or whether their F4 was justifiable or not. If I have to take time out of the game to concentrate my attention on something, I much prefer it to be something important like suspected hacking. There's no reason to overcomplicate things by turning something that could be black and white into varying shades of gray.
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a serverside fix would be to use RBBoT's modified monster plugin (http://www.ravenousbugblatterbeast.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/BugblatterPlugins/plugin_blatt_monster/Docs/index.htm) to spawn barneys/snarks/headcrabs/apache helicopters near the cc that are told to attack aliens
(if for some strange reason you want to, i could have the config files for most co_ maps done in a couple days)
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I have stayed out of this topic because I did not want to get in it. :) Anywayz. Its not fun to be losing in any form....
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[...]spawn barneys/snarks/headcrabs/apache helicopters[...]
That would REALLY spoil the atmosphere though. Could be nice for fun and giggles once or twice, but not on a regular basis.
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Well, what about aliens not having any fun when they're down to one hive and marines, with full tech, are setting up sieges outside? Or when you know you're going to lose, and the only reason you're not is because the marine start has a bad design so the aliens have to take 30 minutes.
There is any number of things that are not fun for a team, but these aren't punishable.
Since there is a large number of admins on, I do believe they can deal with things like this on case to case basis, since the actions that may result in kicks or bans happen less than justified f4s/"spawncamping".
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Hey hey hey....I just because your not having fun does not mean its right to F4. :) I hate ANY F4er
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So if the whole team knows its going to lose and is not having fun, and the other team can't finish the game, they shouldn't f4/recycle?
This can be applied to spawncamping too then, sure, the other team isn't having fun, but so what.
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Nice work shooting yourself in the foot with argumenting - the generic spawncamping rule is exactly such an enforcable thing. By all means I could or should have been held to it several times, I've been in Hives and just uh... 'covered', aka whipped out my pistol and pointed it at whatever pops up. Its one of those things thats tedious and awefully inaccurate to enforce, and the attempt to enforce no-spawncamping is more problematic than the marginal problem that allowing it with the exception of the extreme creates (namely, as you outlined 2 teams being competitive on different levels).
Its just a very thoughtless rule as it stands, as its highly bendable (can both be over-enforced when HDs in a bad mood, or underenforced when a regular does it) and in itself doesn't contribute to the fun. When one side is so competitive that they'll get into the hive with just a few people and spawncamp til they can setup foothold there, then the other side won't have much more fun outside spawn either. You are right than if 2 teams work on different levels of competition/scrubbery then usually the more competitive one will get more fun (due to winning, and their teams morale being good). Theres no way to try to force any specific level thereof though to avoid such a problem - idiots won't automatically play better, and good teams won't become dumber.
It equates to saying "Don't work together, the other team thinks its mean". Not gonna work.
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How is one guy sitting in a hive and shooting anything that pops up equal to 'teamwork'?
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Same way one Skulk constantly running into MS looking for weak def is teamwork. Little manpower and big results - annoying to deal with and prevent, but part of gameplay.
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[...]Or when you know you're going to lose, and the only reason you're not is because the marine start has a bad design so the aliens have to take 30 minutes.[...]
We could always admin_bury the mapper whenever he shows his faec in the server?
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We could always admin_bury the mapper whenever he shows his faec in the server?
I think the best mapper comment EVAR was when tommyd was a fade, came to attack me and another marine in reactor room and was getting shot up, so he goes to run. He tried to go up the little ladder toward west access, got stuck on it, and proceeded to die from my pistol. Then:
TyrNemesis^: BET YOU WISH YOU MADE THAT LADDER BIGGER EH
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Cofr, civilian?
Yes.
Alternatively, preparing for your final rush on the enemy's last base and then watching them all go back to the ready room is also not fun. Don't think competatively here, because this isn't a competition. We're just here to have a good time.
Yes, sometimes it's not much fun to fight when the ending seems inevitable, but don't deny the other team the momentary enjoyment of victory just because you're unhappy with it. The map will change and you get to start all over again. I think of it as a sort of a gentleman's agreement.
By F4'ing you are denying the victors their fun? What fun is there in fighting and defeating an opponent that has become powerless to fight back?
And again, these things aren't going to be taken on a case by case basis. We have a finite number of admins and, believe it or not, some of us actually just like to play the game and not be interrupted to argue with people over whether or not they are spawncamping or whether their F4 was justifiable or not. If I have to take time out of the game to concentrate my attention on something, I much prefer it to be something important like suspected hacking. There's no reason to overcomplicate things by turning something that could be black and white into varying shades of gray.
A simple black-and-white rule for F4'ing would be to allow it only if a sufficient number of players do it at once to elicit an autoconcede. If a sufficiently large portion of a team feels that an F4 is warranted, then it probably is.
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if you disagree with the f4 rule, you can always take yer hand off the mouse/trackball/pointing device, and go get a drink, or something.
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Instead, why not try counter attacking? F4ing is almost never a problem for aliens, as by the time they get to the last hive, they're usually down to a bunch of crappy skulks vs. HA or JPs with l3 w/a. GG in a few seconds.
The problem is marines, and turtling. Instead of turtling in base and shooting everything that walks in, gather your troops and pick a hive. Go for it. Ignore everything you see along the way (except things actively attempting to eat you, obviously) If you make it to the hive, shoot! You might just get lucky and actually take down a hive. The chances of turning this into a win are about nil, but it is still a lot more fun than camping your base for a half hour while waiting for the inevitable. Ignore the fact that the aliens are eating your base while you're gone. It was bound to happen anyway. There, greater fun for everyone. The next round comes much faster. And you can feel like you made an EFFORT instead of just camping base.
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F4ing is almost never a problem for aliens, as by the time they get to the last hive, they're usually down to a bunch of crappy skulks vs. HA or JPs with l3 w/a. GG in a few seconds.
Low-level aliens can actually hold out fairly well if the marines are not making a concerted effort to end the game, and at this point the marines have little incentive to make a concerted effort.
The problem is marines, and turtling. Instead of turtling in base and shooting everything that walks in, gather your troops and pick a hive. Go for it. Ignore everything you see along the way (except things actively attempting to eat you, obviously) If you make it to the hive, shoot! You might just get lucky and actually take down a hive. The chances of turning this into a win are about nil, but it is still a lot more fun than camping your base for a half hour while waiting for the inevitable. Ignore the fact that the aliens are eating your base while you're gone. It was bound to happen anyway. There, greater fun for everyone. The next round comes much faster. And you can feel like you made an EFFORT instead of just camping base.
Yes, that is generally what I try to do when I command (which is almost never).
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*remembers ns_lost* :p
I agree in concept a compromise like "If 75% of the team agress to f4, its legal" would work, its just not very practical. In explanations, selective memory will quickly make it "You can F4, okay" or other chaotic situations. And the benefit isn't that great - it makes more sense to give an added incentive to finishing a game quickly as the winner, than to pulling out as the likelier loser.
Of course, what does make things a bit worse is the no-spawncamping pseudo-rule. If there an admin on the alien team, he'll obviously be grumpy when you finish 10 minutes earlier with a rush, mines and a few guys covering the shotgunners killing the hive. So HA, siege and snailpaced wins are what the rules basicly tell you to do right now - only Aliens may rush a base :/
Same as when in a 3on3 2 shotgunners walked into maintenance hive, killed their RT and walked out - killing 5-6 spawning Skulks while at it. Just because a certain admin felt that was spawncamping, he slayed them - we could have ended the game right their otherwise.
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One way to make a marine loss funnier is to start farming IPs instead of turrets. When the game's more or less over and only the marine base remains, most comms start building as many turrets as possible in a last-ditch effort to hold out as long as they can. Not only is that strategy flawed, it's also boring. Building lots of IPs instead makes the game more fun for both sides. The aliens have lots of marines to fight (much more fun than just slowly tearing down turrets), and the marines don't spend most of their time in the spawnqueue.
The most notable example was a game of origin. We marines were losing badly, so LB got in the chair and relocated to Computer Lab of all places (or whatever it's called - that node halfway between biodome hive and marine start). We held out for half an hour against a fully teched alien team, frags climbing into the hundreds and everyone having a blast. An eight-man marine team had twelve IPs at one point. It was like the essence of every "valiant humans defend themselves against endless hordes of nasty aliens"-scene you've seen in any movie.
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I probably shouldn't antagonize the admin position on this issue because I'm a nobody around here, but I have to basically agree with those against the blanket no-spawncamping rule. I personally think a no llama rule is plenty. Spawncamping of the worst sort described in this topic is clearly llama behavior, like tking and parasiting your teammates. If a player is a llama, he's probably showing it in more ways than just killing some people in the spawn. If this llama is being so annoying as to deserve kick/ban, do it. But to blanket remove such a basic part of NS gameplay because it isn't "fun" to be on the recieving end seems excessive.
I used to admin on a CS server with a sizable community like this one. We were a ff server, and so had many of the same llama problems you're trying to deal with here. For us, the answer was easy. We banned llamas. Lots of them. Our ban list had over 13000 wonids. But the game play was always good, and after we banned them all, llamas were rare.
Now, I admit a couple of important points here:
1) we were a "pub", but we catered to cal-clanners. if you weren't cal-o quality or better, you would have had no fun at our server. And we liked it that way.
2) CS is a very simplistic game compared to NS. this makes llamas easier to spot and ban, and evades some of the complicated issues brought up in this topic.
Well, enough antagonizing admins, I'm outa here to go play before you decide to apply the above llama ban concepts to me... :)
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